Little help please ? Low force keyboard...

[rlm80]

First post here so hi everybody.

My fingers hurt when I type. The pain is located in the joints, mostly the last one of each finger. I don't use my right pinky anymore for this reason already. I'm searching for a solution that might alleviate this problem.

Despite its bad reputation I bought an Apple Aluminum, and it helped at first because of the low force, but on the long run it did more bad than good because it forces me to bottom out every time I press a key and the "landing" is especially hard. Lately I had the opportunity to try a keyboard with brown Cherry MX switches and I rather like how they feel (not clicky, rather low force, and how they activate before bottoming out), except that the required force still seem too much to me and I'd be happier if the activation happened as soon as possible instead of happening at mid-distance. Then I learned about "keyboard surgery", which seems possible with board-mounted keyswitches only.

Anyway, it seems my best bet is to try to get my hands on a keyboard that uses board-mounted Cherry MX keyswitches (brown...or black ?...or the new red ones ?) and then try to modify it by shortening the springs. Do you know of such a keyboard that would be available in Europe (Belgium) ? Also, is it possible to get replacement keys (since I will most likely screw some keys up in the process) ?

If you have any other suggestions that might help me please let me know.

Thank you !

[itlnstln]

Wow.  I don't know of anything with any lower force than Cherry browns.  You might want to take a look at a Topre Realforce.  They are designed for exactly what you describe.  The letter keys range from about 45g for the strong fingers (index, middle) to 35g for the weaker fingers (ring, pinky).  They are expensive (> $200 USD), however, and you have to import it from Japan, but it might be just the thing you are looking for.  I am sure some of the other members will be able to help.  Thanks for stopping by and welcome to GeekHack!

[Eclairz]

I think good posture can help alot, make sure you get a good adjustable chair preferrably with arm rests and try to make sure your elbows are at the same height as the keyboard, and try moving your elbows instead of using your wrists to type.
Other good ergonomic tip is to make sure your monitor is just below the horizon of your vision and get a good footrest and of course a good wrist rest. If it is cold where you work you will also need to warm up your finger/arm muscles with a few stretches so that they don't get injured when typing ferociously.

On the other hand you could always use dictation software and give your hands a break from time to time.

[itlnstln]

I have two of them (three if you include the 45g Topres) and using one right now and both are known, proven solutions for some of (!) the people who suffer from this, but both require relearning your ways and are too expensive for comfort unless you're nuts or when the boss or health insurance pays.

I forgot about the alternative solutions.  Either the TouchStream or the DataHand would be a good fit.  You are right, though, I would only get one if insurance would cover it.  They are pretty expensive.

[zwmalone]

There is an all 30g version of the realforce that may suit you...

[lowpoly]

Maybe a clicky switch like Cherry blue wouldn't be so bad after all as you could learn to type without bottoming out.

[zwmalone]

That sounds like a good one, I didn't know there was an all 30g version. With its soft landing, it could be it, as in case you do start to bottom out, at least you don't get the full hit.

The only problem is I've heard the crisp feeling of the topres goes down as the weight does...

[rlm80]

Wow. Not even an hour and already 10 replies. This community is really helpful, thanks a lot everyone, I'm reading your replies with much interest.

Edit : I will review them all tomorrow after work, now it's bed time here. Good night everyone ^^

[Chloe]

The pains in my fingers and hands really improved by switching to Cherry browns. The first Compaq MX 11800 I bought was really broken in, the switches are lighter and less tactile than new. I've since worked up to buckling springs without the sharp pains returning, so I would attribute most of the pain to bottoming out. Rubber domes have very little overtravel, if any.

You could pick up a used Cherry G80 board from Ebay Germany for very little.

You can do spring surgery on ALPS switches too, but travel is slightly less and they feel quite different - crisper than Cherries, and easier to bottom out (More so with shortened springs).

There is an all 30g version of the realforce that may suit you...

http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91

[lowpoly]

You could pick up a used Cherry G80 board from Ebay Germany for very little.

Or a new one (or two).

[wellington1869]

you can also play with springs in alps boards pretty easily (including removing them, or removing the tactile leaf in them, both of which would radically reduce key force; i've tried the latter but not the former which may be possible). a dell black alps at101w can be had on ebay for $20 shipped or less. The switches on them are a lot easier to open up and play with than cherry switches are.

[bhtooefr]

Something home-made using Saia-Burgess G3M1T1PUL 15g microswitches, maybe?

[D-EJ915]

sun type 6 keyboards are pretty low force rubber dome boards which can be picked up for really low prices (they only work with the USB on pc, the other is the sun DIN design).

[cchan]

D-EJ915, of course they're incredibly mushy too and imo below average for even rubber dome boards. But they are rather lower force.

[rlm80]

You might want to take a look at a Topre Realforce.

There is an all 30g version of the realforce that may suit you...

http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91

Very interesting find (can't believe you guys even know about japanese only products). But yes it's expensive and it's a gamble since I have no way to try it out, so I will keep that one for after I've explored all the other alternatives.

Also an expensive gamble, importing it from Japan. At least, I don't think there are Realforce shops in Belgium, where you can try one, unless one side of the country finally gave up the battle and sold itself to Japan.

Mwahahaha not a bad idea actually XD
It would also get us good prices on manga and anime, which I happen to like...

I think good posture can help alot, make sure you get a good adjustable chair preferrably with arm rests and try to make sure your elbows are at the same height as the keyboard, and try moving your elbows instead of using your wrists to type.
Other good ergonomic tip is to make sure your monitor is just below the horizon of your vision and get a good footrest and of course a good wrist rest. If it is cold where you work you will also need to warm up your finger/arm muscles with a few stretches so that they don't get injured when typing ferociously.

On the other hand you could always use dictation software and give your hands a break from time to time.

Thanks for those useful tips. I don't think dictation software is an option though, since I mostly do programming.

you can also play with springs in alps boards pretty easily (including removing them, or removing the tactile leaf in them, both of which would radically reduce key force; i've tried the latter but not the former which may be possible). a dell black alps at101w can be had on ebay for $20 shipped or less. The switches on them are a lot easier to open up and play with than cherry switches are.

If you want to try a Dell AT101W, you can PM me for a very cheap one, new in box (one of the Dells of earlier ebay fame here).

I'd love to. I'll send you a PM to work out the details if you still feel up to it. Thank you.

Or a new one (or two).

Those use black cherries, the linear ones, huh ? If I can manage to shorten the springs it might be a good solution. At that price I really have nothing to loose anyway. I'll order one. Thank you.

But what's your budget?

Like anyone I don't like spending money unneccessarily and I'm not rich but considering I spend 30 times as much time a day working on a keyboard than I do driving my car, and the price of a car...money is not my main concern.

I have two of them (three if you include the 45g Topres) and using one right now and both are known, proven solutions for some of (!) the people who suffer from this, but both require relearning your ways and are too expensive for comfort unless you're nuts or when the boss or health insurance pays.

It seems the touchstream doesn't sell anymore unfortunately. I would consider the datahand if I could try one first, but I have three worries about it :
- one has to use 10 fingers. If you have a weak finger it's impossible to adapt the way you type to avoid using it too much.
- the lateral movements of the fingers is an unnatural move that scares me on the long term, especially for the pinkies.
- the tons of special characters I need to use for programming would probably make it hard to learn.

Maybe a clicky switch like Cherry blue wouldn't be so bad after all as you could learn to type without bottoming out.

Another good idea I will keep in reserve, thank you.

The pains in my fingers and hands really improved by switching to Cherry browns. The first Compaq MX 11800 I bought was really broken in, the switches are lighter and less tactile than new. I've since worked up to buckling springs without the sharp pains returning, so I would attribute most of the pain to bottoming out. Rubber domes have very little overtravel, if any.

You could pick up a used Cherry G80 board from Ebay Germany for very little.

You can do spring surgery on ALPS switches too, but travel is slightly less and they feel quite different - crisper than Cherries, and easier to bottom out (More so with shortened springs).

Thank you very much for your advices and ideas Chloe. Something tells me I'll need your help soon.

Something home-made using Saia-Burgess G3M1T1PUL 15g microswitches, maybe?

hahaha I can't imagine showing up at work with something like that XD

[D-EJ915]

D-EJ915, of course they're incredibly mushy too and imo below average for even rubber dome boards. But they are rather lower force.

if by mushy you mean no force and extremely comfortable then yes, lol

[fkeidjn]

http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91

Isn't the Dharma simply a relabeled Realforce?

[cchan]

if by mushy you mean no force and extremely comfortable then yes, lol

Well I don't get any tactility or crispness whatsoever out of the Type 6. I like my keyboards to feel precise.

[pmyshkin]

if by mushy you mean no force and extremely comfortable then yes, lol

I can't stand these keyboards, even though I love the key layout on the unix models. They probably have the worst feel of any keyboard I've used. Also, the pressure required to press down the keys seems to vary a lot across individual boards. I've used 3 of them in the past and they've all had different resistances, with the heaviest one being heavier than average dome keyboards.

[Stone]

rlm80: This thread is fairly old; how did your hands work out in the end? Did you end up changing keyboard?

I've convinced work to get me a Cleankeys board to stand in for the Datahand while I have hand surgery (no use of my left hand for a month, wah!) - looks great as it's touch-sensitive (capacitative switches) so should be very low-force. I'll review it when it turns up, shame it £350 :faint2:

Stone

[symphonic1985]

I did spring surgery on a Cherry MX black board. It wasn't hard to make the keys uniform since you can always cut the same amount of wire from each spring. I judged it from where the wire stops at the top. I used Euro coins to check that my keys were coming out uniform in weight at about 40-45 grams.

Getting a Cheap MX black is pretty cheap and easy, either from ebay or Ascaii here on the forums. When the group spring buy is done I will be able to compare my wire cut results to unmolested springs.

[daniel0731ex]

Doesn't shortening the spring increase the elasticity constant? (i.e. makes it stiffer)

And you say that the keys you tried doesn't require bottoming out, so I'm assume you had Cherry black...If that's the case, I think the Cherry red switches are the same as black but a lot lighter.

Or you could get the dell SK-8115 Keyboard.

[.XL]

Seeing as you're looking for a cheap mech board that requires very little force that you could eventually mod if you needed, may I suggest the Compaq MX11800? I bought it as my first mech board, and was surprised at the lightness of the keys. They feel lighter than my Brown Filco, and you can barely feel the activation point.

The lightness comes from use...it's an old board, and has been well used. If it's not light enough for you (though I don't know how much lighter you'd like) you can mod it easily, since it's PCB mounted and the switches come off easily.

Regarding price...I picked mine up for $30USD shipped. Unbeatable price IMO. You might see if someone on eBay is selling them atm, and if they have an offer button, give them a $20 offer, they'll usually take it.

Edit: a quick search of eBay found this one that takes offers. I'm sure he'll go with $30. The other option is this one that has free shipping, if the other seller rejects the $30 offer.

EDIT 2: Didn't see the date this was posted. Threadomancy ftw!

[symphonic1985]

The springs are compressed a lot inside the switches normally, so aren't close to their equilibrium position. By making the spring shorter but with the same coil spacing you compress it less when you shove it inside the switch - less spring becomes less force here.

To match MX blue springs I had to remove the 'spring cap' of coils plus about one more coil.