Author Topic: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO  (Read 5661 times)

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Offline Applet

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Intro:
So, a bit of a change in the project. I decided to make two versions. One hotswap and one solder. The two boards have the same layout options and features. To fit all the layout options on the hotswap PCB, switch rotations are north, south and 90-degree. There are some issues with this to be aware of, so check that out first if unsure. All switches on solder pcb are with the LED position facing north.

Specs:
  • ATmega32U2 with QMK support both in QFP and QFN
  • Standard tray mount
  • RGB-led close to capslock-switch
  • Common ANSI and ISO layout support
  • Split space
  • USB-C
  • Reset button under spacebar
  • JST-connector for USB daughter board
  • Open Source

Current status of PCB
Designing next revision and testing prototypes

PCB:
239072-0
239074-1
239076-2

Layout support:
234116-3

Repo:
https://github.com/4pplet/waffling60
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 April 2020, 07:50:29 by Applet »

Offline yui

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Looks very nice, but heard (read) that GMK keycaps are crashing on backward switches (diodes away from the user i think), and your board seem to have quite a few depending on layout, i have not tried 1st hand and i do not know if it only affects some switches or only 1u but it might be worth considering/trying out on your prototype.
I would love for it to work, but there might be other issues, i have not yet had any experiences with smaller than tkl keyboards.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Applet

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Thanks! :D Good input

Yes, I am aware of this issue with GMK keycaps, but there is no good way around that with this layout support. My thinking is that, if this is a problem, there is other hot swap PCB's with less layout support.

As of my understanding, this is mainly on row 3, right? So if using ISO and non stepped caps, this will be an issue with GMK.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 January 2020, 07:33:14 by Applet »

Offline yui

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if it is mainly on row 3 the only issue would be the normal caps lock, no? i feel like the big iso enter key should not interfere with switches at all and you do not seem to have any other backward on row 3? or am i counting the row wrong?
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Applet

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For row 3 these two keys are rotated "south facing":
234122-0

Tho it seems also row 4 is affected with GMK and south facing switches also: https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/8hn0o8/cherry_r4_keycap_rubs_against_northfacing_mx/

But my thinking is, if this is an issue, there are other hot swap PCB's with fixed layouts. Reasonable? If I were to use only north facing switches and the layout I want to use, it would be only fixed layout :( It seems to vary a lot in how much people feel/care about this issue/interference.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 January 2020, 08:14:50 by Applet »

Offline yui

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So yeah i did read the pcb wrong, i just brought that issue up as you seemed to ask about potential issues we would see, i am not a big fan a cherry profile and rather have a spherical profile, so it seem like a good trade off to me, and even for peoples who like cherry there are keysets with thinner walled key that are not reported with the same issue, or maybe some light sanding of the keycap / switch if it comes to that.

when you have done your testing are you planing on launching a gb? or leave it for the community to build them from source?

I always like having options so for me it looks like a good idea.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline equalunique

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Both OLKB and NovelKeys stock special thin O-rings designed to prevent the GMK/north-facing switch issue. These mitigate the problem for me, although the risk of accidentally losing those tiny O-rings when swapping switches would present an inconvenience.

I for one am excited by the overall layouts offered.

Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk


Offline Applet

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Both OLKB and NovelKeys stock special thin O-rings designed to prevent the GMK/north-facing switch issue. These mitigate the problem for me, although the risk of accidentally losing those tiny O-rings when swapping switches would present an inconvenience.

I for one am excited by the overall layouts offered.

Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk


Yes, the tiny spacers for keycaps should solve the issue also. Good point.

So yeah i did read the pcb wrong, i just brought that issue up as you seemed to ask about potential issues we would see, i am not a big fan a cherry profile and rather have a spherical profile, so it seem like a good trade off to me, and even for peoples who like cherry there are keysets with thinner walled key that are not reported with the same issue, or maybe some light sanding of the keycap / switch if it comes to that.

when you have done your testing are you planing on launching a gb? or leave it for the community to build them from source?

I always like having options so for me it looks like a good idea.
I will be making releases with gerbers and everything needed to build and order, so anyone is free to build them from source. If there is interest, we can at least do a small limited GB if I find a suitable manufacturer ;D

Offline RETURNISO

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Great work, HS ISO with tsangan bottom row :eek:

Yes, ill buy one 

Offline Applet

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I'll will also look into making a FR4-plate for tray mount, to go with the layout support of the PCB. I'll post it when I have a draft of it for feedback  :D

Offline equalunique

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I'll will also look into making a FR4-plate for tray mount, to go with the layout support of the PCB. I'll post it when I have a draft of it for feedback  :D
Never been so excited about an FR4 plate in my life

Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk


Offline Applet

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So, I noticed I made a blunder and removed the stabilizer for the ISO-enter at some point and now I ran in to some issues. The stabilizers for ISO-enter interferes with the current placement of the sockets.

As I see it, I have three options:
1: Skip PCB stabilizers for ISO enter
2: Rotate 4 switches 90 degrees (like on the CU65), there are documented issues, but reading the CU65-thread, people claim this is a non-issue.
3: Make two versions, one ISO, one ANSI

How it would look with rotated switches:
234243-0

I am not a fan of 90-degree rotation of switches or plate mount stabilizers, so I'm leaning towards making two versions of the PCB, but of course I'd love to keep it as a one "do it all" design.

I'd love to hear your input and if I'm overlooking something.


I put together a plate (both ANSI and ISO), still need to check with fab so it is ok to manufacture.
234332-1
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 January 2020, 10:01:26 by Applet »

Offline Applet

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I will make a few test PCB's and plate with all the layout options and the 90-degree rotated switches. It's worth a try ;D

Will update when I get them and start testing.

Offline Applet

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I will be making a solder only PCB with the exact same layout options, features and plate (same matrix, everything), but not hotswap and only north facing switches. Really need to come up with a better name  :-[
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 January 2020, 06:18:55 by Applet »

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 04 February 2020, 03:52:35 »
I did a update of main post. Went with 90-degree rotation on some of the hot-swap switches (not sure if wise) and did a solder only PCB. Will order PCB's and FR4-plate this week.

Offline equalunique

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 04 February 2020, 10:56:10 »
I did a update of main post. Went with 90-degree rotation on some of the hot-swap switches (not sure if wise) and did a solder only PCB. Will order PCB's and FR4-plate this week.
Awesome! This will be the dream 60% PCB.

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 25 February 2020, 06:10:44 »
Update time:

So I got the prototypes PCB's and I've started testing them out. Some good and bad things:

Plate:
Due to the tolerances at JLCPCB I had to increase the distance between the switch cutout and outer edge to 3mm, this makes the FR4-plate a very tight fit in kbdfans and plastic poker cases (the two I have at hand). They do work if I cut the corners, but it is not a perfect fit. If making more of these, I'd need to find a supplier that is ok with making the distance smaller than 3mm. Other than the sizing issue, I really like how the plates turned out.

RGB Capslock led:
I'm starting to question the choice to add a RGB-led. In theory, it seemed like a great thing, since I had 3 pins over on the MCU, but the driver for PWM is not really made to run multiple hardware PWM signals and different colors. I have recently discovered VIA, and I'd like to be able to have all functionality there also. Due to this, I'm considering switching to a single color led (in switch for solder version) and using the two spare pins for underglow and a buzzer (fun to max out the ATmega32U2). Thoughts?

Decided changes:
  • Rotate Fn-switch (split RShift) on solder version
  • Rotate left shift stabilizer on both versions in next revision.
To rotate left shift stabilizer on hot-swap pcb, I will also need to rotate the adjacent sockets.

Next up is to order some hotswap sockets and check out if there is any issues with the sockets. My main worry is issues between stabilizers and sockets. This will be interesting.

I'll update the post with some pics later today.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 February 2020, 06:23:33 by Applet »

Offline yui

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 26 February 2020, 04:55:55 »
To be honest, i am not a big fan of rgb anyway, so so it does not bother me personally, and i am not sure to ever have seen rgb lock indicator, as for beeper, well i never understood their use, mkb are already too loud for some places, so adding more is adding to that.
but then RGB is only ever an option and the beeper i guess will be as well, so there is no harm to anyone by including them, and don't hit yourself too hard for not managing to do everything with a chip that old and low powered, i always find it a miracle what peoples can cram into it already.

vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 26 February 2020, 06:49:18 »
I quite enjoy trying to max out the ATmega32U2, so no worries there. ;D

Yes, this is the case for me also, I do not use RGB or buzzer, but my thinking is that there is no harm in having support for it, it is easy to implement. If we want to cut cost, we can simply leave them out, when populating the board. If I go the route of ditching the RGB Capslock indicator for a single color, I can add the other stuff. I have still not made up my mind if I should keep it or not.

Offline Prelim

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 26 February 2020, 14:37:19 »
no l33t cares about RGB :P
2x GH60 revC - lubed Linjärs 65g / lubed Gat blacks 65g with SPRIT 5mm acrylic plate | Dolch PAC - lubed vintage blacks 65g | Raptor K1 G80-1890 
Floating on Cherry/GMK caps - White on Black, Classic Beige, Dolch, Olivetti, Alcatel MMK, Hellgrau

Offline RETURNISO

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 26 February 2020, 15:36:39 »
I am fan of indication, especially on a 60% So that single RGB led could do alot of wonders for me :thumb:



Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 08:55:15 »
I have decided to keep the RGB-led, but you should know there is no great QMK-support for it yet. I will order sockets this weekend and the remaining components to test the led etc.

Cheers!  ;D

Offline RETURNISO

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 10:38:28 »
Cool, Hopefully the future is bright :)

Cant you control it like a normal WS1812 LED in QMK? sry for my lack of knowledge here

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 12 March 2020, 10:58:18 »
Unfortunately, no. It is a bit different from controlling a WS1812. I have not yet had time to play around with it. I will post more when I have.  :D

Offline kkatano

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 12 March 2020, 19:47:07 »
The PCB is awesome and the plate looks very cool :cool:
I'm interested in how the FR4 plate makes a difference to the sound profile of porker case.

Offline equalunique

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 13 March 2020, 10:29:14 »
Excited af for this. Gonna have to get multiple.

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 17 March 2020, 04:23:21 »
I have started implementing the code for controlling the RGB indicator. I will make a default config where it can show lock-status (numlock, caps lock, scroll lock and the other two with different colors) or use the led-indicator for custom stuff and macros (with lock-indicators off). Currently I control it with just on and off, so we get the colors: Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Purple, Teal and White. This at a fixed intensity.

It is possible to do a more advanced implementation where we can control intensity and also do the colors in between using PWM, but I think this is a good start.

EDIT: Added hardware PWM for adjusting intensity and made the code with generic RGB-values (r,b,g values between 0 to 0xFF) as defines, which makes it easy to add more colors. Current colors: white, red, orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, purple and pink. :D
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 March 2020, 11:41:41 by Applet »

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 01 April 2020, 05:13:15 »
Short update:

Things have been a bit slow now during covid-19 times, but I've made some progress with the project. I have built both a hotswap version and a non hotswap and they work as I intended. I have completed what I think is a good first implementation of functions to drive the RGB LED, they are pretty simple and should be easy to modify. They use hardware PWM and you can set color in RGB and intensity.

I have started incorporating a flexcut to all my 60% PCB's, If someone has knowlege or feedback on that, that would be VERY helpful. The current routing is a bit rough, I will improve that.

239065-0
239067-1
239069-2

Thoughts?

I found an issue with the plate that will be fixed, sizing issues I mentioned previously have only been an issue in plastic cases so far. They fit fine in alu-cases I have from kbdfans. I will update more later regarding plate and with pics of the actual PCB's.

Offline Prelim

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 01 April 2020, 06:22:55 »
it seems to be in a very advanced stage! nice, but I wonder why the flexcuts are for?
2x GH60 revC - lubed Linjärs 65g / lubed Gat blacks 65g with SPRIT 5mm acrylic plate | Dolch PAC - lubed vintage blacks 65g | Raptor K1 G80-1890 
Floating on Cherry/GMK caps - White on Black, Classic Beige, Dolch, Olivetti, Alcatel MMK, Hellgrau

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 01 April 2020, 06:39:05 »
it seems to be in a very advanced stage! nice, but I wonder why the flexcuts are for?
Flexcuts are intended to provide a softer feel (due to PCB flex) when using a flexible plate. I like this implementation because its length and position is not dependent on stabilizer or switch-mount, so I can use it on all my 60% PCB's and share improvement between the designs.

Offline Prelim

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 01 April 2020, 06:43:38 »
I see, it seems it could be an advantage on pcb mount builds or with flexible plates like you said. But how about with a thick plates, do you think it would better or worse? (I usually use 5mm acrylic plates on my 60% builds)

Thanks once more for all your good work!  :thumb:
2x GH60 revC - lubed Linjärs 65g / lubed Gat blacks 65g with SPRIT 5mm acrylic plate | Dolch PAC - lubed vintage blacks 65g | Raptor K1 G80-1890 
Floating on Cherry/GMK caps - White on Black, Classic Beige, Dolch, Olivetti, Alcatel MMK, Hellgrau

Offline Applet

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Re: waffling60: solder and hotswap (two versions) MX 60% PCB, ANSI & ISO
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 01 April 2020, 06:54:32 »
I see, it seems it could be an advantage on pcb mount builds or with flexible plates like you said. But how about with a thick plates, do you think it would better or worse? (I usually use 5mm acrylic plates on my 60% builds)

Thanks once more for all your good work!  :thumb:
Thanks!  ;D When using a thicker, more rigid plate, the flexcut should not make a big difference (probably none at all).