Author Topic: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac  (Read 7568 times)

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Offline varslot

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I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« on: Sat, 15 February 2014, 22:50:22 »
EDIT:

My solution = HHKB Type-S

Short summary:
  • All the shortcuts for Mac works
  • The ability to remap keys
  • Non-variable keypresses (this is a personal preference, because I don't type much - I use shortcuts in Adobe programs)
  • The size and look

ORIGINAL POST:

Just... Tell me which one I should buy.

Both have a silenced version, which will suit me well at work. I'm afraid the HHKB will be a pain in the ass because of the "lack" og keys, but then again it looks so nice. The "Silenced" version of the 87u has distributed key switch weighting, which is probably really good for typing, but I don't type alot, I use shortcuts for Adobe programs. Also the Windows key is bothering me with the 87u, HHKB has a "Mac" cmd symbol.

It's so hard to choose which one... I really need help, or more like convincing, I guess.

Help.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 February 2014, 14:26:15 by varslot »

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Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 15 February 2014, 22:54:17 »
HHKB. And save the money and just DIY silence it with Soft landing pads or dental bands. Silenced HHKB's have been said to be quieter than the Type s variants.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 15 February 2014, 23:42:41 »
The non silent version is definitely NOT loud...I don't think you'll have an issue at work with a normal Topre keyboard...

The possible issue w/ the DIY silent mod on Topre is you reduce the travel...for some this might be beneficial..for others not so much...The silent Topre switches from Topre have a bit more in the slider to adjust for the ring (they're slightly longer). 

If you type with 2 fingers on each hand the variable will probably feel really annoying..if you're typing with all of your fingers it'll feel really easy on your hands compared to most keyboards.

The HHKB is a great keyboard..but not everyone likes dealing w/ the FN layer...I think the number 1 reason for people getting rid of their HHKB is the need for the FN layer.  It is also slightly louder than a normal RF as well but definitely not loud..


Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 15 February 2014, 23:49:28 »
The non silent version is definitely NOT loud...I don't think you'll have an issue at work with a normal Topre keyboard...

The possible issue w/ the DIY silent mod on Topre is you reduce the travel...for some this might be beneficial..for others not so much...The silent Topre switches from Topre have a bit more in the slider to adjust for the ring (they're slightly longer). 

If you type with 2 fingers on each hand the variable will probably feel really annoying..if you're typing with all of your fingers it'll feel really easy on your hands compared to most keyboards.

The HHKB is a great keyboard..but not everyone likes dealing w/ the FN layer...I think the number 1 reason for people getting rid of their HHKB is the need for the FN layer.  It is also slightly louder than a normal RF as well but definitely not loud..
The landing pad method of silencing if done right will not have a huge impact on the travel distance.

Of course the Fn layer will just be dependent on the person.

edit: Corrected my self on travel distance.
« Last Edit: Sun, 16 February 2014, 00:30:07 by Air tree »

Offline Belfong

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 15 February 2014, 23:55:53 »
Air tree, get your HHKB! Come on!
 

Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 15 February 2014, 23:57:47 »
Air tree, get your HHKB! Come on!
Very™ Soon™

But for real this time.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 00:16:25 »
The non silent version is definitely NOT loud...I don't think you'll have an issue at work with a normal Topre keyboard...

The possible issue w/ the DIY silent mod on Topre is you reduce the travel...for some this might be beneficial..for others not so much...The silent Topre switches from Topre have a bit more in the slider to adjust for the ring (they're slightly longer). 

If you type with 2 fingers on each hand the variable will probably feel really annoying..if you're typing with all of your fingers it'll feel really easy on your hands compared to most keyboards.

The HHKB is a great keyboard..but not everyone likes dealing w/ the FN layer...I think the number 1 reason for people getting rid of their HHKB is the need for the FN layer.  It is also slightly louder than a normal RF as well but definitely not loud..
The landing pad method of silencing if done right has very little impact on the travel distance.

Of course the Fn layer will just be dependent on the person.

Where did you get that impression from?  It most definitely has a HUGE impact on travel...I'm pretty sure it even impacts it more than the dental bands...

Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 00:24:05 »
The non silent version is definitely NOT loud...I don't think you'll have an issue at work with a normal Topre keyboard...

The possible issue w/ the DIY silent mod on Topre is you reduce the travel...for some this might be beneficial..for others not so much...The silent Topre switches from Topre have a bit more in the slider to adjust for the ring (they're slightly longer). 

If you type with 2 fingers on each hand the variable will probably feel really annoying..if you're typing with all of your fingers it'll feel really easy on your hands compared to most keyboards.

The HHKB is a great keyboard..but not everyone likes dealing w/ the FN layer...I think the number 1 reason for people getting rid of their HHKB is the need for the FN layer.  It is also slightly louder than a normal RF as well but definitely not loud..
The landing pad method of silencing if done right has very little impact on the travel distance.

Of course the Fn layer will just be dependent on the person.

Where did you get that impression from?  It most definitely has a HUGE impact on travel...I'm pretty sure it even impacts it more than the dental bands...
Bad wording on my part. I didn't really mean it has very little to no impact, I simple mean it doesn't have enough to ruin or change the feel of the switch a lot.

As stated in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0 The thickness of the landing pad is around 1mm and if doing the ironed method it slims it down to 0.5mm, So in any case not a Huge difference. I guess it would just be dependent on the person.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 01:18:33 »
If you've read the entire thread and seen other posts by SpiceBar he has said it reduces travel..in fact, he needed to iron it down to keep the switch from actuating all the time..which is a significant amount of reduced travel...It also means it is already pushing on the dome.  It most definitely changes the feel. 

The only reason I'd do the mod is if I really wanted a silent BLACK HHKB because they don't make a Black Type-S (or I haven't seen one) and that is if I REALLY wanted it that way.  With RF keyboards, the silent version isn't that much more, I certainly wouldn't bother with it.  If you're going to do the mod, you're mainly doing it for fun. 

Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 01:28:14 »
If you've read the entire thread and seen other posts by SpiceBar he has said it reduces travel..in fact, he needed to iron it down to keep the switch from actuating all the time..which is a significant amount of reduced travel...It also means it is already pushing on the dome.  It most definitely changes the feel. 
Could you please quote where he said this? I didn't see this on the second time of reading just now.

And he recommends in any case to iron down the pads for the mod to preserve the feel of topre. And again he said on his leopold that even without ironing it retains the true feel of topre.

Offline epzy

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 01:51:27 »
The layout is the most important thing for me at least. I have a lot of TKL keyboards, but I honestly have to force myself to use them because I enjoy 60% so much. :p You could also consider the Leopold Fc600c if you want the dedicated arrow keys.
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Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 01:56:00 »
Also with Leopold FC660C comes cheaper costs but you deal with other issues such as legends getting dirty easily or something.

On the contrary if you really want dedicated arrow keys on a HHKB Pro keyboard but retain the same form factor and Topre switches there is always HHKB Pro JP.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 02:12:23 »
If you've read the entire thread and seen other posts by SpiceBar he has said it reduces travel..in fact, he needed to iron it down to keep the switch from actuating all the time..which is a significant amount of reduced travel...It also means it is already pushing on the dome.  It most definitely changes the feel. 
Could you please quote where he said this? I didn't see this on the second time of reading just now.

And he recommends in any case to iron down the pads for the mod to preserve the feel of topre. And again he said on his leopold that even without ironing it retains the true feel of topre.

I would indeed recommend the ironing method. It's a bit more of work, but from my experience the slimmed landing pads do a better job of preserving the feel of the Topre switches and the sound dampening on the upstroke is exactly the same (compared to a non-ironed landing pad).

Once ironed as I did, the width of the landing pad is slightly more than 0.5mm. The original landing pad is closer to 1mm. The half millimeter you are saving makes a small difference in feel, and reduces the risk that a key stay always actuated (which is my case happened only once out of 88 keys and was easily fixed).

He doesn't say it preserves the original feel....there is another thread (I'm not going to search for it) where he talks about the travel reduction..it is definitely there...It is actually impossible for it NOT to be there.  The type S Topre switches have a longer slider...in the regular switch you are putting something that blocks the slider from going all the way up..it will reduce how far it moves...

The difference between this type of mod and a Cherry MX o-ring mod is the Cherry MX dampens on the way down and reduces the bottom portion.  The slider comes all the way back up.  In the Topre mod, it goes all the way down but it doesn't come all the way up.  I'm sure you know that already.  So knowing that already and knowing you put something that prevents the plunger going all the way up, you're going to reduce travel.  You're going to partially push down the rubber dome already.  The fact that he's already talking about actuation getting stuck shows this as well...

Does it really matter?  Depends on each person.  Some people will prefer it this way..some won't.  Some people prefer huge o-rings on Cherry MX so the travel is reduced heavily...and some don't. 

Offline epzy

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 02:14:59 »
Also with Leopold FC660C comes cheaper costs but you deal with other issues such as legends getting dirty easily or something.

On the contrary if you really want dedicated arrow keys on a HHKB Pro keyboard but retain the same form factor and Topre switches there is always HHKB Pro JP.

The legends are pad printed so they will start to fade after a while, yes.

Or was it laser etched? I can't really remember.
« Last Edit: Sun, 16 February 2014, 02:18:47 by epzy »
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Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 06:31:24 »
HHKB. And save the money and just DIY silence it with Soft landing pads or dental bands. Silenced HHKB's have been said to be quieter than the Type s variants.
Thanks, but where do I get soft landingpads for Topre? Does these work?

The non silent version is definitely NOT loud...I don't think you'll have an issue at work with a normal Topre keyboard...

The possible issue w/ the DIY silent mod on Topre is you reduce the travel...for some this might be beneficial..for others not so much...The silent Topre switches from Topre have a bit more in the slider to adjust for the ring (they're slightly longer). 

If you type with 2 fingers on each hand the variable will probably feel really annoying..if you're typing with all of your fingers it'll feel really easy on your hands compared to most keyboards.

The HHKB is a great keyboard..but not everyone likes dealing w/ the FN layer...I think the number 1 reason for people getting rid of their HHKB is the need for the FN layer.  It is also slightly louder than a normal RF as well but definitely not loud..


I have someone sitting like right beside me, you still think it won't bother them?

The layout is the most important thing for me at least. I have a lot of TKL keyboards, but I honestly have to force myself to use them because I enjoy 60% so much. :p You could also consider the Leopold Fc600c if you want the dedicated arrow keys.
Yes, that's why I'm still concidering the HHKB, it just looks too nice.

Also with Leopold FC660C comes cheaper costs but you deal with other issues such as legends getting dirty easily or something.

On the contrary if you really want dedicated arrow keys on a HHKB Pro keyboard but retain the same form factor and Topre switches there is always HHKB Pro JP.

No offence, but that layout looked like **** to me. I would be sad with that kind of layout on a Topre  :-[

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Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 06:49:28 »
I have someone sitting like right beside me, you still think it won't bother them?

A RF won't be as loud as a HHKB..it will have less thock.   Will it bother the person next to you?  Probably not...it isn't much louder than a normal rubber dome keyboard or it might be quieter depending on which rubber dome keyboard. 

I'm assuming you've checked it out on youtube, etc to see how loud these things are (they're not) but if you're concerned, the silent realforces might be the way to go.

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 13:43:46 »
HHKB. And save the money and just DIY silence it with Soft landing pads or dental bands. Silenced HHKB's have been said to be quieter than the Type s variants.
Thanks, but where do I get soft landingpads for Topre? Does these work?






These are what you want if you are doing that method: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,slpads&pid=sl120_cs

Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 17:43:40 »
I have someone sitting like right beside me, you still think it won't bother them?

A RF won't be as loud as a HHKB..it will have less thock.   Will it bother the person next to you?  Probably not...it isn't much louder than a normal rubber dome keyboard or it might be quieter depending on which rubber dome keyboard. 

I'm assuming you've checked it out on youtube, etc to see how loud these things are (they're not) but if you're concerned, the silent realforces might be the way to go.
Yes, and I could just get some soft-landing pads if it's too loud.

HHKB. And save the money and just DIY silence it with Soft landing pads or dental bands. Silenced HHKB's have been said to be quieter than the Type s variants.
Thanks, but where do I get soft landingpads for Topre? Does these work?






These are what you want if you are doing that method: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,slpads&pid=sl120_cs

Awright, thanks mate!

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Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 18:22:15 »
Did you look up what you need to do to install them?  You basically have to take the keyboard and switches apart...

Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 18:24:30 »
Yeah read this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0 All of it, There is information all over it

Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 19:34:18 »
Did you look up what you need to do to install them?  You basically have to take the keyboard and switches apart...

Yeah read this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0 All of it, There is information all over it

I'll look more into it, but I'm the kind of guy to f*** things like this up, so I might aswell just go for the silenced HHKB. We'll see. Anyway, thanks alot for all the help!

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Offline Wildcard

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 19:38:19 »
I wouldn't go for a variable layout (I've tried both). Since there isn't a silenced RF with a uniform layout, the Type-S would be your best bet.

Offline Air tree

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 19:55:02 »
Did you look up what you need to do to install them?  You basically have to take the keyboard and switches apart...

Yeah read this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0 All of it, There is information all over it

I'll look more into it, but I'm the kind of guy to f*** things like this up, so I might aswell just go for the silenced HHKB. We'll see. Anyway, thanks alot for all the help!
Just for re-assurance topre is a lot easier to mod than cherry.

Offline HipsterPunks

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 16 February 2014, 20:48:10 »
Blank HHKB type-S /thread  :thumb: (type-s because you already splurged on the mac)
sell ass and eat out

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 02:07:19 »
Also with Leopold FC660C comes cheaper costs but you deal with other issues such as legends getting dirty easily or something.

On the contrary if you really want dedicated arrow keys on a HHKB Pro keyboard but retain the same form factor and Topre switches there is always HHKB Pro JP.

The legends are pad printed so they will start to fade after a while, yes.

Or was it laser etched? I can't really remember.

I think it was laser etched but I don't know for certain. In either case the legends may tend to wear of over time as opposed to dye sublimation.

Also with Leopold FC660C comes cheaper costs but you deal with other issues such as legends getting dirty easily or something.

On the contrary if you really want dedicated arrow keys on a HHKB Pro keyboard but retain the same form factor and Topre switches there is always HHKB Pro JP.

No offence, but that layout looked like **** to me. I would be sad with that kind of layout on a Topre  :-[

None taken. Everyone has their own preferences afterall.
 
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Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 05:43:48 »
I wouldn't go for a variable layout (I've tried both). Since there isn't a silenced RF with a uniform layout, the Type-S would be your best bet.

What don't you like about variable?  For people that type with "proper" form it is good..if you use 2 fingers on each hand it probably isn't...I think variable is terribad for gaming as well...

Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 06:35:28 »
I wouldn't go for a variable layout (I've tried both). Since there isn't a silenced RF with a uniform layout, the Type-S would be your best bet.

What don't you like about variable?  For people that type with "proper" form it is good..if you use 2 fingers on each hand it probably isn't...I think variable is terribad for gaming as well...

For me it's more because I don't really type, I use shortcuts because I'm working as a graphic designer. Without being too sure, my guess would be that I would appreciate a uniform keypress all over the keyboard rather than variable.

If I was a programmer, I would probably go for the variable though.

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Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 07:04:25 »
Have you checked out the HHKB layout to see if it'll work with what shortcuts you use?  For some it is fine, for others it is a nightmare...

Don't get me wrong, I love the HHKB....but I definitely wouldn't be going that way just for uniform silent...

Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 09:15:41 »
Have you checked out the HHKB layout to see if it'll work with what shortcuts you use?  For some it is fine, for others it is a nightmare...

Don't get me wrong, I love the HHKB....but I definitely wouldn't be going that way just for uniform silent...

I use cmd, alt and ctrl in different combinations with lettered keys. The only thing that will be different is the placement of the ctrl key, but that will be just a minor adjustment in my muscle memory.
Actually, you never know which keys you use, since it's all memorized in the muscles, so I guess I'll have to look into it. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out, I haven't thought much about it.

I remember now that I use at least one shortcut with the function keys (cmd+f3 to quickly get to my desktop without minimizing any of programs). Do you know if this will be compatible with the fn key? Like pressing fn+cmd+f3. Because then it won't be a problem.

The thing I'm actually worried about is the numpad, but I use it so little it won't be a problem. I'm thinking of buying a external numpad, so that won't matter in the end anyway.

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Offline daerid

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 12:03:15 »
I believe that both have a DIP switch option to swap the win/alt keys to make the layouts more mac-friendly.

Offline dustinhxc

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 12:11:46 »
Have you checked out the HHKB layout to see if it'll work with what shortcuts you use?  For some it is fine, for others it is a nightmare...

Don't get me wrong, I love the HHKB....but I definitely wouldn't be going that way just for uniform silent...

I use cmd, alt and ctrl in different combinations with lettered keys. The only thing that will be different is the placement of the ctrl key, but that will be just a minor adjustment in my muscle memory.
Actually, you never know which keys you use, since it's all memorized in the muscles, so I guess I'll have to look into it. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out, I haven't thought much about it.

I remember now that I use at least one shortcut with the function keys (cmd+f3 to quickly get to my desktop without minimizing any of programs). Do you know if this will be compatible with the fn key? Like pressing fn+cmd+f3. Because then it won't be a problem.

The thing I'm actually worried about is the numpad, but I use it so little it won't be a problem. I'm thinking of buying a external numpad, so that won't matter in the end anyway.

I also am a Graphic Designer, I have a HHKB and I mapped the right Alt as Control for Zooming in and out in photoshop with - and + also I got used to the FN ;[/' for arrows to move images around pixel by pixel. But I just ordered a Realforce 87U Silent and 87U 55. Maybe Ill like them better with arrows full time. But the dang case looks so much bigger. Good luck!

Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 13:56:22 »
I believe that both have a DIP switch option to swap the win/alt keys to make the layouts more mac-friendly.

Yep that is not my concern at all :)

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Offline dustinhxc

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 14:02:10 »
Im using Photoshop right now and just changed my FN to left Diamond and its way better for the arrows! :)

Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 17 February 2014, 18:09:28 »
Have you checked out the HHKB layout to see if it'll work with what shortcuts you use?  For some it is fine, for others it is a nightmare...

Don't get me wrong, I love the HHKB....but I definitely wouldn't be going that way just for uniform silent...

I use cmd, alt and ctrl in different combinations with lettered keys. The only thing that will be different is the placement of the ctrl key, but that will be just a minor adjustment in my muscle memory.
Actually, you never know which keys you use, since it's all memorized in the muscles, so I guess I'll have to look into it. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out, I haven't thought much about it.

I remember now that I use at least one shortcut with the function keys (cmd+f3 to quickly get to my desktop without minimizing any of programs). Do you know if this will be compatible with the fn key? Like pressing fn+cmd+f3. Because then it won't be a problem.

The thing I'm actually worried about is the numpad, but I use it so little it won't be a problem. I'm thinking of buying a external numpad, so that won't matter in the end anyway.

I also am a Graphic Designer, I have a HHKB and I mapped the right Alt as Control for Zooming in and out in photoshop with - and + also I got used to the FN ;[/' for arrows to move images around pixel by pixel. But I just ordered a Realforce 87U Silent and 87U 55. Maybe Ill like them better with arrows full time. But the dang case looks so much bigger. Good luck!

Im using Photoshop right now and just changed my FN to left Diamond and its way better for the arrows! :)

This is interesting, someone who I can relate to. Do you mind if I ask you some questions?

Left diamond? Do you mean the key that is supposed to be the left cmd?
Does shortcuts like cmd+f3 (bring up the desktop without minimizing any program) work with the fn key? Like fn+cmd+f3?

I probably have some more questions, but I'm not at work right now.

Ducky Shine 3 (MX blue)


HHKB Pro 2 Type-S

Offline spiceBar

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 18 February 2014, 17:42:01 »
If you've read the entire thread and seen other posts by SpiceBar he has said it reduces travel..in fact, he needed to iron it down to keep the switch from actuating all the time..which is a significant amount of reduced travel...It also means it is already pushing on the dome.  It most definitely changes the feel. 
Could you please quote where he said this? I didn't see this on the second time of reading just now.

And he recommends in any case to iron down the pads for the mod to preserve the feel of topre. And again he said on his leopold that even without ironing it retains the true feel of topre.

I would indeed recommend the ironing method. It's a bit more of work, but from my experience the slimmed landing pads do a better job of preserving the feel of the Topre switches and the sound dampening on the upstroke is exactly the same (compared to a non-ironed landing pad).

Once ironed as I did, the width of the landing pad is slightly more than 0.5mm. The original landing pad is closer to 1mm. The half millimeter you are saving makes a small difference in feel, and reduces the risk that a key stay always actuated (which is my case happened only once out of 88 keys and was easily fixed).

He doesn't say it preserves the original feel....there is another thread (I'm not going to search for it) where he talks about the travel reduction..it is definitely there...It is actually impossible for it NOT to be there.  The type S Topre switches have a longer slider...in the regular switch you are putting something that blocks the slider from going all the way up..it will reduce how far it moves...

The difference between this type of mod and a Cherry MX o-ring mod is the Cherry MX dampens on the way down and reduces the bottom portion.  The slider comes all the way back up.  In the Topre mod, it goes all the way down but it doesn't come all the way up.  I'm sure you know that already.  So knowing that already and knowing you put something that prevents the plunger going all the way up, you're going to reduce travel.  You're going to partially push down the rubber dome already.  The fact that he's already talking about actuation getting stuck shows this as well...

Does it really matter?  Depends on each person.  Some people will prefer it this way..some won't.  Some people prefer huge o-rings on Cherry MX so the travel is reduced heavily...and some don't.

I think I need to clarify. It's too bad I have never found the time to properly document the RF87U mod.

The first Topre landing pad mod I did was on a FC660C and on a RF88. The important difference from the 87U is that they have higher actuation forces. I'm not sure if the force comes from stiffer domes or stronger coiled springs. Anyway, they are 45g while the RF87U goes down to 30g on some keys.

The problems I had with key staying actuated or almost actuated where rare on the FC660C and the RF88U. That's the first time I had the idea to iron the landing pads. I had to iron just 2 or 3 for the two keyboards (I don't remember exactly how many for which, it may have been 2 for the FC660C and one or maybe even none for the RF88).

On the RF87U, I did not even try the non-ironed landing pads. I know it would have been too risky and that it would have failed on some 30g keys.

The great thing with landing pads is that you can iron them to death. You can easily make them 0.3mm if you want. After a few trials I have settled on approximately 0.5mm, or half their original width. You must also take into account that the landing pads are slighly compressed by the dome and the spring once they are in place, so they may be even slightly thinner.

My goal was to get a really silent RF87U, and I think I have shown that it was a success. With thinner landing pads, I guess the noise reduction would have been less effective.

Non-ironed landing pads in the FC660C and RF88 affect the feel a little bit. The dome is already slightly compressed, so when you press a key you feel less of the dome's collapse. They feel very slightly more linear. I'm pretty sure I could have preserved the original feel with ironed landing pads, but I like these keyboards as they are now.

The RF87U is a slightly different story. It feels a little too much linear now. It's not a problem for me, I just love the keyboard.

But I would certainly advise to try to iron the landing pads to make them 0.3mm of even a little bit less in width if possible if you want to preserve the feel as much as possible.

I don't think that doing the mod is just for fun. I have an HHKB Type-S, and I can tell you it's nowhere near as silent as the RF87U. The mod produces a keyboard that is much more silent than a Type-S. The "Thock" is still there, but someone in the same room could as well not notice that you are typing. The Type-S is very far from this.

If I manage to get some free time, I may even try to silence half of my HHKB Type-S just to show you what I mean. Some owners of the $400 Type-S may die of heart attack! :)

On the other hand I understand that not everybody needs such a silent keyboard. I do, because at night I work in a room where I have my pregnant girlfriend and our 2.5yo sleeping nearby. So for me it was very important. But I must concede it's a lot of work: 4 to 6h for a Realforce.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 18 February 2014, 18:29:52 »
Comparing it to a HHKB which is louder than a RF anyways is probably not a good comparison..the sound mod only impacts what sound it makes on the way up...My HHKB makes a LOT more noise than my RF and has a lot more thock..that is just the design of the keyboard itself. 

I would be interesting to see your mod on the Type S though..and compare the two side by side..

Offline osi

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 18 February 2014, 18:42:09 »
Spice --- what's your point of view in terms of feel on the plate mounted topres vs PCB mounted topres?

Offline spiceBar

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 07:22:31 »
Spice --- what's your point of view in terms of feel on the plate mounted topres vs PCB mounted topres?

There are no PCB mounted Topres as far as I know. I think you mean plastic plate mounted Topres (like the HHKB) vs metal plate mounted Topres (like the Realforce and FC660C).

The plate mounted ones feel much more solid. The difference is huge.

I must say that the all-plastic HHKB feels very cheap when compared to the FC660C or a Realforce. Also, the case makes a lot of cracking sounds. And I have the most expensive standard (non-limited edition) model. It's a nice keyboard, but all the hype around it sounds more and more like religion to me, because objectively it's a light all plastic keyboard of good but not outstanding quality.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 07:32:22 »
It not being heavy doesn't make it cheap.  The HHKB is really quite well built..but most people enjoy it because of the form factor and because it is really enjoyable to use...they enjoy the noise it makes..

I like the RF and HHKB...the RF does feel more solid but it also doesn't have as satisfying a sound..I enjoy both for the same and for different reasons..

It obviously just isn't a plastic case either as it mounts the switches so there is more to it than just a plastic box that holds the rest of the keyboard..


Offline osi

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 07:35:53 »
Spice --- what's your point of view in terms of feel on the plate mounted topres vs PCB mounted topres?

There are no PCB mounted Topres as far as I know. I think you mean plastic plate mounted Topres (like the HHKB) vs metal plate mounted Topres (like the Realforce and FC660C).

The plate mounted ones feel much more solid. The difference is huge.

I must say that the all-plastic HHKB feels very cheap when compared to the FC660C or a Realforce. Also, the case makes a lot of cracking sounds. And I have the most expensive standard (non-limited edition) model. It's a nice keyboard, but all the hype around it sounds more and more like religion to me, because objectively it's a light all plastic keyboard of good but not outstanding quality.

Thanks for clearing up that terminology for me -- that is indeed what I was going for. Eventually, I'll be sure to touch one of those boards for comparison for plate mounted topres.

The experience I have is limited with plate mounted boards; had 2 total and gave one away but they were both MX. To me, the plate creates a more 'jarring' effect on my fingers than the plastic mounted ones. Could be completely different with Topre though -- I appreciate the insight.

Offline spiceBar

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 07:42:35 »
Spice --- what's your point of view in terms of feel on the plate mounted topres vs PCB mounted topres?

There are no PCB mounted Topres as far as I know. I think you mean plastic plate mounted Topres (like the HHKB) vs metal plate mounted Topres (like the Realforce and FC660C).

The plate mounted ones feel much more solid. The difference is huge.

I must say that the all-plastic HHKB feels very cheap when compared to the FC660C or a Realforce. Also, the case makes a lot of cracking sounds. And I have the most expensive standard (non-limited edition) model. It's a nice keyboard, but all the hype around it sounds more and more like religion to me, because objectively it's a light all plastic keyboard of good but not outstanding quality.

Thanks for clearing up that terminology for me -- that is indeed what I was going for. Eventually, I'll be sure to touch one of those boards for comparison for plate mounted topres.

The experience I have is limited with plate mounted boards; had 2 total and gave one away but they were both MX. To me, the plate creates a more 'jarring' effect on my fingers than the plastic mounted ones. Could be completely different with Topre though -- I appreciate the insight.

I think I understand what you mean, but the metal plate indeed create a different feel on Topres than on Cherry MX.

I have no problem with the Poker X, a Cherry MX without plate. The Poker II (basically the same build, but with a metal plate) is slightly better, but the difference is not huge.

But a Topre without a metal plate definitely feels cheap.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 07:48:42 »
But a Topre without a metal plate definitely feels cheap.

It definitely does not feel cheap...A lot of people prefer the feel of the HHKB over a RF...You get more thock..it isn't nearly as jarring...

At the same time, some people will prefer the plate of the RF..it feels more solid..when you hit bottom it isn't like a cherry mx bottom but definitely the vibrations stop right there...the switches feel (IMO) lighter because of the plate (and I don't know why) and it doesn't thock nearly as much...

Calling the HHKB cheap feeling is pretty funny...why not sell yours if you don't like it?

Offline spiceBar

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 08:33:59 »
But a Topre without a metal plate definitely feels cheap.

It definitely does not feel cheap...A lot of people prefer the feel of the HHKB over a RF...You get more thock..it isn't nearly as jarring...

At the same time, some people will prefer the plate of the RF..it feels more solid..when you hit bottom it isn't like a cherry mx bottom but definitely the vibrations stop right there...the switches feel (IMO) lighter because of the plate (and I don't know why) and it doesn't thock nearly as much...

Calling the HHKB cheap feeling is pretty funny...why not sell yours if you don't like it?

I did not say that it is not a good keyboard, but I have the most expensive model and the case squeaks and I find that it feels cheap compared to other keyboards I own.

I don't want to sell it because:
- I don't need the money.
- This HHKB has Hasu's dedicated fully programmable controller. A gem.
- It's part of my collection. When you collect things, what's the point of selling them?

I use my HHKB on top of my MacBook Air when I'm not working on my desk. It's a good use for it, but my Poker X did the job just fine.

Recipe for finding that the the HHKB is the best keyboard in the world: purchase only one keyboard ever, a HHKB. Then read Geekhack's threads about how it's the best keyboard in the world. Done. :)

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 09:12:20 »
I did not say that it is not a good keyboard, but I have the most expensive model and the case squeaks and I find that it feels cheap compared to other keyboards I own.

The Type S isn't made any better..but my HHKB doesn't squeak..maybe yours is a dud?  Not sure...but for a lightweight case it feels pretty well made..as it should given the price..

Recipe for finding that the the HHKB is the best keyboard in the world: purchase only one keyboard ever, a HHKB. Then read Geekhack's threads about how it's the best keyboard in the world. Done. :)

I don't think the HHKB is the best keyboard in the world...I don't know if there is any "best" keyboard in the world..I do know I enjoy using it...as I enjoy RF keyboards...I like them both a lot and glad I don't have to pick just one..

I do know the HHKB does not feel cheap..I know it has more thock than RF...RF makes less noise....






Offline varslot

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 09:51:10 »
Thank you all for the help so far.

As it is right now, I'm leaning more toward a HHKB. But there are some issues I'm worried about.

I use some shortcuts to have a better workflow that require me to use the functions keys. If someone with a HHKB and Mac could test this out for me, I would be grateful. Try this: fn+cmd+f3, this should show you the desktop without minimizing any programs. Doing it again should bring back all the programs. There might be some workaround for this if it's not working, so I might have to look more into this.

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Offline spiceBar

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 13:23:55 »
I did not say that it is not a good keyboard, but I have the most expensive model and the case squeaks and I find that it feels cheap compared to other keyboards I own.

The Type S isn't made any better..but my HHKB doesn't squeak..maybe yours is a dud?  Not sure...but for a lightweight case it feels pretty well made..as it should given the price..

I don't know what's wrong with mine. The case squeaks when I press on it on the side near the user (front side?). The opposite edge doesn't squeak.

I need to open it to find out. I see that the front side is held by clips, while the rear is held by screws. The clips all seems to be perfectly in place, so I may need to add some material somewhere to reduce the play in this area. While I'm at it, I will probably try to add some sound dampening material in the bottom of the case. I find that the sound is not too bad, but there is a little bit too much of resonance in the middle of the keyboard. It sounds hollow, which it is because it's all plastic. Maybe this could be improved.


Quote
Recipe for finding that the the HHKB is the best keyboard in the world: purchase only one keyboard ever, a HHKB. Then read Geekhack's threads about how it's the best keyboard in the world. Done. :)

I don't think the HHKB is the best keyboard in the world...I don't know if there is any "best" keyboard in the world..I do know I enjoy using it...as I enjoy RF keyboards...I like them both a lot and glad I don't have to pick just one..

Yes I think we agree on this. BTW the joke was not directed at you personally. It's just that some people seem to lose their sense of perspective when they talk about the HHKB.

Quote
I do know the HHKB does not feel cheap..I know it has more thock than RF...RF makes less noise....

It's very far from being worth its price. Of course, the price is totally psychological, but it's possible to compare with other products out there and my opinion is that given its price, it feels cheap. In other words, for this price you expect more than just the nice feeling of the Topre switches. But that's all you get, really. From this point of view, the FC660C feels better, as it has the same switches, a more solid build, and costs significantly less.

I don't regret buying the HHKB, because I can afford it even if it's just for occasional use. But for people considering purchasing it as their main keyboard, I think that saying it as it is won't hurt: it's a lovely overpriced keyboard.

Offline Belfong

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 18:14:51 »
Personally I agree with spiceBar - the HHKB feels cheap for the price it's charging. I think there is no doubt on the supremacy of Topre switches against Cherry but the overall built of the keyboard - from the case, it's weightlessness and it's non functional USB ports - it's just feels like a child's toy. It's a wonder this keyboard sells so well. For me, my first two weeks if typing on Topre is just meh that I would have return it if it weren't for all the love shown here.
 

Offline neunelfer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 19:07:35 »
I completely disagree - my HHKB feels very solid. Of course it is not as heavy as a keyboard with a steel plate (Filco), but it is meant to be small and portable. To me it is a good example of a high-quality Japanese product, reminiscent of older Japanese Sony products.

Offline Polymer

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 20:12:17 »
Personally I agree with spiceBar - the HHKB feels cheap for the price it's charging. I think there is no doubt on the supremacy of Topre switches against Cherry but the overall built of the keyboard - from the case, it's weightlessness and it's non functional USB ports - it's just feels like a child's toy. It's a wonder this keyboard sells so well. For me, my first two weeks if typing on Topre is just meh that I would have return it if it weren't for all the love shown here.

It is supposed to be light by design.  Whether or not people prefer that is something totally different.  Weight and metal doesn't equate quality. 

I look at the HHKB and I'm amazed at how light it is yet still carries a very solid build.  The feel of they keyboard is great.   

It definitely isn't the same as Plate vs. PCB mounted Cherry switches...the case mounted switches of the HHKB give it a very solid feel but a very lively feel..where I think of the RF as relatively dead in comparison...

Offline spiceBar

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Re: I'm stuck, please help me - HHKB vs 87u for Mac
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 19 February 2014, 20:26:30 »
Personally I agree with spiceBar - the HHKB feels cheap for the price it's charging. I think there is no doubt on the supremacy of Topre switches against Cherry but the overall built of the keyboard - from the case, it's weightlessness and it's non functional USB ports - it's just feels like a child's toy. It's a wonder this keyboard sells so well. For me, my first two weeks if typing on Topre is just meh that I would have return it if it weren't for all the love shown here.

It is supposed to be light by design.  Whether or not people prefer that is something totally different.  Weight and metal doesn't equate quality. 

I look at the HHKB and I'm amazed at how light it is yet still carries a very solid build.  The feel of they keyboard is great.   

It definitely isn't the same as Plate vs. PCB mounted Cherry switches...the case mounted switches of the HHKB give it a very solid feel but a very lively feel..where I think of the RF as relatively dead in comparison...

Yep, this HHKB is a lovely toy.