Author Topic: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?  (Read 2075 times)

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Offline TheHeartographer

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Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« on: Mon, 24 February 2014, 20:52:44 »
Hey all, I'm new to Geekhack but not all that new to keyboard obsession. I'm hoping y'all can help me with indecision paralysis.

I have ridiculously severe tennis elbow in both arms, which has meant that I have to heavily customize any workstation I use. Now that I run my own business it's much easier, but it's still not quite perfect—my next home office purchase is going to be a keyboard or two. But I can't find a single product that meets every one of my desired features! Can you?

I want a keyboard that has the following traits, in descending order of urgency:

-Mac compatible. Doesn't have to be reprogrammable/Mac layout, but I prefer it.
-Ergonomically curved, ideally split, super-ideally detached, and extra-ideally tented. (Stay with me!  :D)
-Tenkeyless. To alleviate the tennis elbow I mouse both left and right; even my custom extra-wide keyboard tray can only accommodate so much. I almost never use NumPad features anyway.
-Mechanical switches; not for gaming but just for hardcore typing all day every day. No ghosting allowed. I think I want Cherry Brown MXes, or possibly the Matias quiet ones, but I'm open to switch opinions too.
-Normal-ish layout. I've been typing on QWERTY since I was nine, and I also type in multiple languages which is pretty easy to do mentally with this standard layout. I'd rather not have to learn DVORAK or something crazy, and I also use my plain old MacBook keyboard often enough to not want to have to convert mentally. This is why I'm skittish about the Truly Ergonomic.
-Bluetooth. Or wireless. I will accept USB if I must, but it makes me sad. I often want to hand my clients keyboards so they can type in a password during our meetings. It'd be so nice to pair it to an iPad in offsite meetings. If I must, I'll get the bluetooth GoldTouch Go! when the new model FINALLY comes out, and keep that just for clients and travel—but that feels pretty wasteful.
-Backlit. My office is weird and my keyboard tray modification means that no light shines on the keyboard from any of my lamps. So after sundown, I can't see my fingers. I don't normally need to, as I'm about an 85% fantastic touch typist—but I'm not perfect so whenever I need to do something involving numbers or atypical punctuation keys, I glance down and am blind. LED would suffice, I think. I'm grudgingly willing to install LED strip lighting under my desk and above my keyboard tray if I must. I don't care about the color—that's a lie, I like white and then red and then blue and then whatever else. But color is not a dealbreaker. ;)
Available now. I've been holding out for these pie in the sky options like the new GoldTouch Go or the new Matias Ergo, but it's taking too long and my tendinitis is flared up today, you know? I've also worked enough software and hardware to mistrust any alleged release date, haha.

So, given that it seems like I have to compromise on SOMETHING, what should it be? Anyone have experience or just opinions to share on this? I've been waffling about making a purchase for like a year now, and it's getting ridiculous! All input is welcome. I don't have a specific budget in mind, though anything over about $200 makes me twitchy.

Am I crazy? Should I get all maker-happy and frickin build something from scratch? Can I hire one of you to do that for me? (Only 90% kidding on that last one. PM me if you're down.)
Online dating coach by day; keyboard enthusiast by ALL OF THE TIME ALWAYS. Severe tendinitis brought me here. Hello!

Offline Oobly

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 25 February 2014, 02:36:26 »
Kinesis Advantage:

Compromises on: Programmable. Split or detached. Wireless. Backlit.

Split: Since you're using it on a tray, the lack of split shouldn't be much of an issue.

Wireless: Get a Filco Minila Wireless or other smallish wireless board for your colleagues to use. Both boards can be used at the same time.

Backlit: A small USB lamp or LED strip should do the trick.

ErgoDox:

Compromises on: Curved, tented (can be done yourself easily), wireless, backlit.


The Kinesis has better thumb key angle and the curved keywells are very nice. A split, wireless and backlit Advantage COULD be built by an adventurous geek from a standard one, but it would be a LOT of quite skilled work to do.

IMHO, the most critical criteria for you at this stage are: Mac compatible, Ergonomic (splayed, tented, curved), Mechanical, Tenkeyless size, QWERTY and Available now. The Advantage meets all those.

To save space on your tray you could also try something like this: http://www.petekeen.net/mounting-a-magic-trackpad-on-a-kinesis-advantage-keyboard

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Photekq

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 25 February 2014, 02:51:43 »
I think the main problem you're going to have is finding an ergo board that's wireless. Also, might be a bit hard to find one that's backlit.

If you want a tented, TKL, regular layout board then the Cherry MX5000 is pretty much perfect. Unfortunately, it's PS2 so I'm not sure how that'd work with a mac. I'd say the ergodox, as oobly has already mentioned, is also a great option, although the layout is less normal since it's not staggered. The ergodox is much easier to find.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 February 2014, 02:54:18 by Photekq »
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 25 February 2014, 03:17:29 »
Note, Oobly didn’t mention, but both the Kinesis Advantage and the Ergodox are also compromising on “normal-ish layout”.

But you might want to switch away from normal-ish layout anyway. I think learning to use a matrix or staggered-column board would take less time than you might expect.

In addition to the Kinesis Advantage, (maybe) the Maltron, and the Ergodox, it’s also maybe worth considering the “Truly Ergonomic” keyboard. It has the advantage over the Kinesis/Maltron of being smaller and more portable, and the advantage over the Ergodox of not requiring manual assembly. Also still available is the ~$100 Datadesk Smartboard, which could also be nice.

I wouldn’t recommend non-mechanical keyboards (like the various Microsoft options or the Kinesis Freestyle), but that might just be my personal bias showing through. Beyond just the feel of the keys, none of these seemed to have an especially good layout to me.

The other thing you could try to do is find one of the various out-of-production ergonomic keyboards from the 90s. The Cherry G80-5000 is a very thoughtfully designed keyboard, though it might be hard to find nowadays. There’s also the Kinesis Evolution, the Omnikey Evolution, the Chicony KB-7000 / KB-7001 (here’s one on ebay), etc. etc. I’m not a big fan of the keyswitches used on the Apple ergonomic keyboard, but those are fairly easy to find for $30–50, used. Any of the above can be made to work with a Mac using USB via an adapter (either purchased or made yourself using a little microcontroller and some soldering; if you make one yourself you hopefully also get full programmability of the keyboard).

Or you could wait for the Matias ErgoPro or Jesse’s (Obra’s) keyboard.io kickstarter project http://launch.keyboard.io though both of those are at least 6 months from shipping.

* * *

I wouldn’t try to dissuade you from building something from scratch or hiring someone to do so, but be warned that that’s definitely not an immediate solution, or cheap. I’d guess it would take at least a few months of learning enough about what you want to actually get something working that you’re satisfied with, and several hundred dollars in tools/parts (unless you have an electronics workshop set up) to do the work yourself or labor to hire someone for.

Even if you do ultimately end up making something custom, I’d recommend trying out a few existing keyboards first. The nice thing is that many things you can buy either new or used (especially if you can lurk on ebay for a few weeks and watch out for deals) have good resale value and you should be able to recoup most of what you spend.

* * *

Also, I’d question some of your goals. In particular, I don’t think there’s as much advantage in wireless, backlighting, or mac compatibility as you might think (especially in comparison to getting a physical layout that you like). Macs have a nice feature whereby you can remap modifier keys on a keyboard to suit your own tastes, making PC-targeted keyboards perfectly workable.

One thing you very well might appreciate that you haven’t listed is programmability of the keyboard. The nicest feature of the Ergodox, in my opinion, even more important than the split halves allowing arbitrary tenting, or the physical layout of the keys, is that you can make any arbitrary character mapping you want, to suit your own needs. Keyboard firmware like Hasu’s tmk_keyboard allows a lot of nifty features like dual-role keys, etc., which can be very useful.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 February 2014, 03:31:15 by jacobolus »

Offline TheHeartographer

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 17:15:09 »
Thanks to you all for the helpful replies! I fail at Forums 101 because I never set up email notifications—just now catching up on past advice.

That Matias ErgoPro actually seems like the smartest solution out there; I was delighted to discover it but frustrated it's not out yet. Prior to deciding to go mechanical, I had been eagerly awaiting an update to the GoldTouch Go! Bluetooth keyboard, since their old model isn't compatible with Macbooks somehow—bizarre—but their alleged launch date has been pushed back by over a year now. So I don't want to get my Matias hopes up! Truth be told I'll need something better between now and then, too. I'm doing more and more writing-intensive stuff every week.

I think you guys are right that I have to give up on wireless. The reason is because I have clients who sometimes need to type something on my keyboard, and a wired super-ergo keyboard on a pull-out tray isn't a good option, nor is using my Macbook for input since it's high up on a custom stand. But I think I could shell out the $60 for an Apple keyboard that would serve as a clients-only option—it feels frivolous, but it's probably more important in the long term to prioritize my own needs.

I'll update when I finally pull the trigger just in case anyone is deeply fascinated, heh. :) Cheers!
Online dating coach by day; keyboard enthusiast by ALL OF THE TIME ALWAYS. Severe tendinitis brought me here. Hello!

Offline mashby

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 17:29:00 »
Welcome to GeekHack!

Definitely keep us posted on what you end up choosing because I'm sure it'll be helpful for others as well.

Offline bearcat

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 18:33:17 »
another alternative, the Kinesis Freestyle is a great alternative - you compromise on
- mechanical switches :(
- bluetooth
- backlit.

But for $100, you have a split, tentable keyboard with a standard layout.  I got a lot of use out of mine.

After that, building your own is really very achievable.  If you don't need it to be highly portable/small, it can be built in a weekend or two.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 19:03:42 »
After that, building your own is really very achievable.  If you don't need it to be highly portable/small, it can be built in a weekend or two.

I disagree on the time estimate :P  From scratch, for a beginner?  Two months of weekends, easy.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 20:06:50 »
Also, you may not want to go down that rabbit hole. You’ll end up with hundreds of dollars of tools & parts, and the ebay keyboards (gotta try those switches) will pile up all over your house. :-)

Offline TheHeartographer

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 18:25:22 »
You guys are so helpful. I actually wound up buying the Matias Laptop Pro, even though it compromises on loads of features—nothing was perfect so I figured if I was gonna shell out, I should shell out for something numpadless and Bluetooth so that I could theoretically carry it around and pair it to a mere iPhone/iPad during meetings and events. (Of course now I'm ever so slightly regretting it, because I accidentally wound up working a contract at Microsoft where I'm forced to use a PC with which it seems to be incompatible.)

Note that this thing is actually REALLY heavy as "laptop" or "portable" keyboards go, and it doesn't have any kind of case/cover that protects it during transport. Seems pretty durable (the build quality is incredible) but don't let the name fool you; it's far from the most portable option out there. Also, the Matias "Quiet" mechanical switches are by no means as quiet as a membrane keyboard. I'm glad I discovered Matias, and plan to keep buying their quiet switches over, say, brown Cherry MXes, but I was hoping for something much more silent based on their audio clips and descriptions. I podcast and record Screenflow tutorials, and this is definitely not a keyboard on which I can subtly type in the background without a mic picking up some of that noise. It would also definitely be far more distracting in a presentation/seminar than my Macbook Pro's built-in keyboard. That said, I friggin' love the thing; it's just not without its faults.

My current plan is to use that for now, and hold out and purchase their Ergo Pro when it comes out—the thing looks SO SWEET and the mechanical yet quiet-ish keyswitches alone are so great for my tennis elbow that I can firmly say I'll never deliberately seek out a non-mechanical keyboard again. The only reason I didn't pre-order is because Goldtouch's release date for the redesign of their Bluetooth Go! keyboard has been pushed back almost TWO YEARS now, so I'm a little wary of preorders that take my money today, haha. I'll be ever so pleased if Matias sticks to a more rigorous timeline for the Ergo Pro!

Right now the prospect of building something on my own is too daunting, simply because I've got too many other projects to learn and then tackle that are more directly tied to how I earn my living. But I *am* about to replace a door lock actuator on my car with a buddy from Twitter, which just might make me more confident/less dismissive about taking on custom electronics projects down the line. That, or I'll manage to electrocute myself and all this keyboard waffling will be a moot point. :D
Online dating coach by day; keyboard enthusiast by ALL OF THE TIME ALWAYS. Severe tendinitis brought me here. Hello!

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 19:09:18 »
Great to hear it’s working out for you!

Note that this thing is actually REALLY heavy as "laptop" or "portable" keyboards go, [...]  Also, the Matias "Quiet" mechanical switches are by no means as quiet as a membrane keyboard.
I think some amount of size and weight is pretty much inevitable for full-stroke mechanical keyboards, compared to scissor switches &c. Perhaps using some PCB-mounted switches, low-profile keycaps, a thin flimsy case, and a tiny (40-50%) layout, it would be possible to get something really portable. But it probably wouldn’t be as nice to type on.

Same goes for noise. You could try stuffing some kind of dampener between the PCB and the outer case (e.g. a shelf liner works for some people), and it’s possible some improvement could be made with some kind of rubberized coating of the keycaps, or more careful design of the switches to include even more dampening elements. But I think some amount of noise is hard to avoid in a mechanical switch.

Quote
Right now the prospect of building something on my own is too daunting, simply because I've got too many other projects to learn and then tackle that are more directly tied to how I earn my living.
Sounds pretty reasonable. :-)

Offline FiskFisk33

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 11 April 2014, 05:13:57 »
You should really check out acidfires project:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

It doesn't compromise on any of your requested features except
  • Available now

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Which feature should I compromise on for my next keyboard?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 11 April 2014, 05:36:03 »
Purchase a USB Bluetooth adapter from Amazon.