NTC 6752 EA - Green Alps / clones?

[niubio]

I've just spent two hours wondering WTF is wrong with this board FCC ID on the back is FMA44HKB6251, which quickly leds us to NTC KB-6251 wiki... But:

1) This boards has green Alps - linear, non-tacticle - or some sort of clones. Temporary album posted here
2) It has no markings on the back besides FCC ID mentioned, and on the PCB it says... 6752 EA v4.0. Try google search on that one!





Caps are laser printed. Pretty common board, eh? The problem is that the switch feeling is exceptional. I've checked the wiki, and it kind off looks like green Alps, but has no definite markings on top, only random numbers. Looks like >1996 simplified Alps, but why there's an AT/XT switch selector??? That makes no sense.

Have to say that guys, this linear mechanism blows vintage cherry blacks a mile away.

More photos and a video of course.

[CPTBadAss]

From the pictures it looks like complicated linear SKCL Green Alps. I have a Zenith PCB with some Green Alps switches in them and I really like how they feel.

Unfortunately I can't provide anymore information other than that's what they look like to me. Nice find though.

[niubio]

Thanks for the quick reply

You say it's a complicated ALPS... But then why it has no "slits" - the case looks like simplified Alps? And why there's no LED hole in the case?

Guess we will have to wait for Daniel's words of wisdom

There's one more switch that I personally think is comparable - it's a white Hi-Tek "Space invader". Forgot about that

EDIT: Any chance to see that Zenith CPT? Maybe some necro thread or gallery?

[CPTBadAss]

You say it's a complicated ALPS... But then why it has no "slits" - the case looks like simplified Alps? And why there's no LED hole in the case?

Guess we will have to wait for Daniel's words of wisdom

That's probably best. Like I said I'm not sure. I was going off a quick glance of your pictures and your description of the feel.

EDIT: Any chance to see that Zenith CPT? Maybe some necro thread or gallery?

I just got some PCBs with the switches from Akimbro. They keyboards they're from should be from a Zenith ZKB-2. Sort of like this one from Akimbo.

[BlueBär]

That Zenith badge

Could it be this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Xiang_Min_KSB_series
The ones without LED of course. Colour matches, and only has numbers on top.

[niubio]

That Zenith is gorgeus CPT  I have been hunting for Zenith boards for so long, they are so rare here... Very nice!

Could it be this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Xiang_Min_KSB_series
The ones without LED of course. Colour matches, and only has numbers on top.

That would be KSB-N then... BUT! The board is from late '80/very early '90 - so if you're right, this would suggest (according to wiki): "older switches are likely to be Himake/Hua-Jie switches" - so I wonder how much they differed from "new" switches.

1) contact leaf inside is not copper-coloured.
2) Numbering is kinda different - digits are "upside down" in contrast to those switches shown in wiki.
3) green color of plastic slider is a little more faded I think.

EDIT:

4) Contact leaf has different construction. You can see that clearly when comparing this wiki photo with mine

[BlueBär]

Found a photo of a green switch from the Hua-Jie AK series:


[Source]

[niubio]

That might be it! Too bad those schematics thumbnail links to a dead page :/ I'm still sceptic about this internal construction. Anyway, thanks BlueBär, I'm impressed with your knowledge I wonder how many different types of switches have been produced on far East until now?

[BlueBär]

There is a Hua-Jie website, but it works with frames, so here's the relevant subpage with a working schematics image:
http://php2.twinner.com.tw/...

I just use my Google-Fu

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Definitely clones, but several companies make almost identical clones. Are you able to take a photo where the writing on the switch is readable?

[niubio]

I've been busy recently. Will try to make better pics tomorrow, now it's dark outside and my camera has serious problems with black elements :/

Anyway, I've found a nice ICL board with strange switches - too bad that some caps are MIA... Took it for white space invaders PL layout (video).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Reminds me of Fujitsu switches, although they don't match any that I know of. It's got the painted/permanent-marker-indicated sliders that Fujitsu and NMB used -- in the case of my Peerless I don't even know why some of them had paint/marker ink on.

ICL did make their own switches, so they could be a form of ICL switch. No-one put anything about ICL switches on the wiki while photos of them were still available.

[niubio]

It's got the painted/permanent-marker-indicated sliders that Fujitsu and NMB used -- in the case of my Peerless I don't even know why some of them had paint/marker ink on.

Yeah, I've noticed that too... Maybe it's got something to do with key placement - like alts, ctrls and others "biggies" got mark while others didn't. Unfortunately, most of those white sliders were loose when I got my unit, so I put them back @ random, no way to know now...

ICL did make their own switches, so they could be a form of ICL switch. No-one put anything about ICL switches on the wiki while photos of them were still available.

Guess it's going to be a busy day tomorrow Green Alps clones + ICLs coming up!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's a quiet weekend for me, as I'm ill : P

Looks like Fujitsu did indeed mark the stabilised switches for some reason:



(That's from when I had mine apart for cleaning)

[dorkvader]

Normal ICL switches look like small round white or red dots. I did find this picture on DT though:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/hi-i-have-a-strange-keyboard-t2183.html

It appears to have the same switches as yours. Try to remove those white parts and see what's underneath (they look removable and you can sorta see on in the image of the underside of a keycap, it's in there.)

If I knew anything about ICL: switches past what has already been said in this post, I'd make a wiki page, but I don't even have pictures. I think someone recently got an old ICL KB, so I'll wait on those to show up so at least people can have switch ID photos.

edit:
there is already a DT wiki topic on old ICL switches and it links to a DT topic of some good pictures:
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/ericsson-type-1121-t5167.html

[niubio]

Normal ICL switches look like small round white or red dots. I did find this picture on DT though:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/hi-i-have-a-strange-keyboard-t2183.html

Yep, that's the same switch. Ok, I got myself a halogen, maybe I'll make those pics today. There's a spring inside and some kind of strange plastic tube beneath - even lower there's a rubber dome over membrane I think.

[niubio]

Green Alps clone close-up:



ICL switch:







Wow, I'm improving my camera skills A little...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Interesting … those are either Fujitsu Peerless switches, or a clone of it. Ah; from TFA: "Fujitsu has made a lot of ICL's hardware when ICL was its own company, then Fujitsu bought ICL. Fujitsu may have used the ICL brand before they switched to "Fujitsu ICL" and later to "Fujitsu Siemens", especially in the UK because ICL was British."

So yes, looks like it's a different version of the Peerless switch. I still have no idea what makes them go click!

It would be interesting to see what's written on all the parts (case, PCB etc) as there may be some telltale Fujitsu part numbers that would confirm Fujitsu manufacture.

Interestingly, the "real" ICL switches look a lot like RAFI switches in terms of design.

The green Alps clone, I still can't make out the writing on it. It's interesting to note that AK-DN2—the Himake linear Alps clone—officially used a green slider. Whether they kept to their colour codes, I don't know. I don't pay a lot of attention to slider colour with Alps clones.

[niubio]

On "Alps", it's a rotated "52", hope that makes this a little more clear. I've taken around 30 photos of this switch, and that's the best one. Like I've said before, my camera has some serious issues with black tones, or I'm just a little handicapped in terms of using it Anyway, I think I've got my answer: it's a clone. It feels so nice tho. And it's good to know that it's been used in KB-6251 series!

As of ICLs and the reason that they "click". After pressing a key, the spring inside compress and starts to apply more force on this small plastic tube that's inside - and rubber dome that is underneath of course. After reaching some critical point, the dome collapses, along with the tube, and spring decompress. So the tube is "shot" to the bottom by the spring, thus making a "click" sound. It's a very subtle click and tacticle feel - something rather different from white ALPS hammer blow

Some more pictures of ICL's PCB and case, as requested:







Indeed, it has something to do with Fujitsu!

EDIT: Sorry to hear about your illness Daniel! Get well soon!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ah, there you go, Fujitsu part numbers.

Controller PCB numbers:

My Fujitsu KB4700: N86D-4700-R101/01 BUHIN
Your ICL: N86D-4749-R101/02 BUHIN

So we now have two different designs of Peerless.


Oh noes! Not the sideways-rotated Alps clone switch numbers … I've only seen a sideways rotated one once before. I don't know that I have a link anywhere to it. A number like "52" suggests late 80s, maybe 1990 or 1991 to me. The writing is normally like the one on the right here:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Himake_mould_numbering.jpg

The switch on the left is a later numbering format.

It's really hard to photograph writing on switches. Often the writing is just plain invisible in photos.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

BTW, does your version have the actuation and full travel distances I measured for mine?

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Fujitsu_Peerless

[niubio]

My Fujitsu KB4700: N86D-4700-R101/01 BUHIN
Your ICL: N86D-4749-R101/02 BUHIN

So we now have two different designs of Peerless.

Everyday I learn more and more I'm stunned that you have such knowledge Daniel! Nothing can surprise you anymore, eh? I think it might be exactly the same switch but with different slider shape. How can I measure travel and actuation distances?

Oh noes! Not the sideways-rotated Alps clone switch numbers … I've only seen a sideways rotated one once before. I don't know that I have a link anywhere to it. A number like "52" suggests late 80s, maybe 1990 or 1991 to me. The writing is normally like the one on the right here:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Himake_mould_numbering.jpg

The switch on the left is a later numbering format.

It's really hard to photograph writing on switches. Often the writing is just plain invisible in photos.

Ok, so the switch on the right is definitely the same as mine. As I can see the one photographed on wiki was also used in NTC keyboard (NTC KB-6153EN). It makes sense.

All those different types of switches, it's overhelming... I've had enough for today, must get some sleep

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I measured the actuation and full travel distances using the tail end of a caliper, using some sort of bad hack.

Ah, you mean rotated as in, upside down? Yes, those clones tended to have the writing upside down compared to most Alps switches.

[niubio]

Unfortunately, I do not have a caliper here... I think I have one that's buried somewhere in the basement, maybe one day I'll find it

Yeah, I meant upside down, sorry for the confusion.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Everyday I learn more and more I'm stunned that you have such knowledge Daniel! Nothing can surprise you anymore, eh?

Oh, there are plenty of surprises for me still. Recently I came across some highly suspect Apple hairpin spring switches that looked like the factory had replaced the Apple logo in the moulds with another symbol. And yes, I found some Alps clone switches where the numbering was rotated either −90° or +90°.

For example, what's the deal behind Simplified Alps Type III? By chance, I've now learned of some apparently genuine Alps switches with the same incorrectly-numbered moulds, but from seemingly five years prior. I don't know if someone discovered these bad mouldings and threw them out, and someone stole the rejects? The Type III shells can't be fake, as they're the wrong design for clone contacts …

So many mysteries, from so many switch families. Would I die happy if I finally learned who PED were? No luck getting Wong's Electronics to tell me anything about who AWC were. Why did we call them Wong's in the UK, if they wrote "AWC" on keyboards? The WEC (Wong's) and AWC logos also differ.

I still feel like I have more questions than answers.

Of course, what you have to remember is that while other people spend their evenings out on the town, at bars and nightclubs, getting hammered/laid, I'm spending my no-life reading up on keyboard technology ; )

[niubio]

Recently I came across some highly suspect Apple hairpin spring switches that looked like the factory had replaced the Apple logo in the moulds with another symbol.

That sounds funny! Like Apple ordered switches from some factory and they used their blueprint to manufacture the same, but "unbranded" switches, and then sold them to someone else? Isn't that a felony or sth?

For example, what's the deal behind Simplified Alps Type III? By chance, I've now learned of some apparently genuine Alps switches with the same incorrectly-numbered moulds, but from seemingly five years prior. I don't know if someone discovered these bad mouldings and threw them out, and someone stole the rejects? The Type III shells can't be fake, as they're the wrong design for clone contacts […]

Sounds like there's more politics in keyboard business than technology! Well maybe I'm a total nerd, but it sounds interesting to me. I think I have to learn about all those different kind of boards/switches first, then I'll start to recognize OEMs and link them in my mind instantly with specific models. For example, now I've this simplified mindmap: ICT -> Fujitsu -> Peerless. Funny that the most effective way to learn about IT is to dig some old long-forgotten junk, try to restore it, maybe even power it on, and later google more specifics from the Internet. And I think you get most "kicks" from it when there's absolutely no info to be found

Of course, what you have to remember is that while other people spend their evenings out on the town, at bars and nightclubs, getting hammered/laid, I'm spending my no-life reading up on keyboard technology ; )

Well, "getting hammered" every night isn't exactly the best way to spend your life... It was fun in dorm times, crazy $hit and stuff. But then some ppl grow up and expect something more I guess. For me, "getting hammered" sounds extremely boring (maybe you've heard or experienced this - Poles frequently don't know their limits), and poking old, vintage, long-forgotten switch seems interesting. Maybe not "loads of fun", but interesting anyway

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Apple hairpin spring switches were an Apple patented design. Dreadful, apparently — that's what you get for not trusting a reliable keyboard OEM! The patent was still in force when these switches were made. It's like Dell AT101 keyboards — we don't know how Silitek were able to migrate Dell over from being an Alps customer to being a Silitek customer and supply them with what was essentially the same product, just cheapened. For example, miserable laser etching instead of nice dye sublimated keycaps, and thinner plastic parts. We know that the "real" Bigfoot line was still around until 1995, several years after Dell moved to Silitek.

Maybe whoever made those fake blue Alps switches realised that most people can't tell an Alps switch from an NMB rubber dome with white sliders, so excess mimicry is largely a waste of time. Any manufacturer who makes any switches without branding opens themselves up for trouble, as you can't point to a lack of logo and say "not genuine". Alps themselves produced some very dubious-looking switches — I'm guessing Japan may have shipped the internals to plastics factories in Taiwan who made the shell mouldings and completed the final assembly, hence the immaculate innards inside terrible exteriors. Probably cost-cutting as the price expectations of PCs fell, and the willingness to ship and to suffer with garbage keyboards increased. I loved my first Mac, but the keyboard with that computer was an abomination.

Most of my experience with Poles comes from bus drivers. If Poland can conceivably come out worse than Britain for alcohol abuse, then, well, I don't know … I despair.

Hopefully as the wiki grows and gains more illustration, it will be ever easier for people to pick up new knowledge, and revise their existing knowledge. It's amazing how much we've learned as a community in the last year or two.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

BTW, you sure about 6752 EA? Doesn't it say KB-6252EA? At least, that's what mine says on it.

You're starting to develop a photo uploading backlog to rival mine!

[niubio]

That's a ton of v. interesting stories! I guess all moves those companies've made over the years (and still make nowadays) were rooted in economics. They couldn't transit straight from hall effect and mechanical to mushy rubber dome, but they surely did it gradually, and most people don't notice it - or don't care! I'm amazed how people just accept "their fate" with computers. Like back in the day it took ~10sec to boot up DOS+App, and you could work with keyboard only in text mode on XT/286. Now you wait patiently for your "modern" i7 Win8 machine to start up, then click on App icon, then click on every damn field to enter data, etc. I watch that $hit everyday in various institutions, that's just insane - for example after they've upgraded the system @ polish postal service, it's a true nightmare to wait in the line there. And don't get me started about medcare, it's even more ridiculous. They input your personal data EVERY ### TIME you have any procedure - in different places (@ front desk, in doctor's office and in the room where a procedure is performed), and after all that fuzzle - they input all that BY HAND to various forms that in the end get transfered between different hospitals.

Should I comment?

Yeah, cost-cutting everywhere. And overcomplication everywhere. Just to make more $ on service, updates, upgrades, tech-talks and things like this.

If it weren't for hardcore gamers and typists, would they even produce mechanical boards now?

You don't believe me about that number thing? Here's a proof:



Like GH upload backlog? They're all linked to external server... Is there a counter somewhere?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I meant, the queue of things you need to upload to the wiki : ) I have a long backlog of wiki work — I just remembered earlier that I need to correct my incorrect comments on the Poker II arising from luser error. At some point I must return to my diagrams — I've not felt like doing much lately.

What does the label on that keyboard say? NTC 6752 does not appear to exist — makes me wonder if it's a typo. It can't be a special issue PCB as it uses normal Alps clones.

Modern IT … It's like paint. If you take your favourite shades of green, red, yellow, blue, purple, and mix them all together, you don't get an amazing, dazzling new colour, you get brown. Modern IT seems to be the brown that you get from combining all the knowledge and legacy of CP/M, VMS, MOS, RISC OS, Mac OS, BeOS, Solaris, EPOC (SIBO), EPOC32, AmigaOS and so many other systems (many of which, I've used). The saddest one for me is RISC OS — I've yet to find a single person who's reacted in any way to my page documenting the RISC OS GUI. Nothing. Emptiness. Desktop PC users can't even recognise any concepts outside of Windows, and the Web is just a chaotic attempt to reinvent UI in the most confusing and accessibility-hostile ways, and being generally broken.

I am "only" 33, but with an average age of more like 16–20 on IT/tech forums, most people aren't old enough to have experienced IT back when it was still designed. People who had to suffer cassette tapes before they could graduate to 100 kB single-sided diskettes! That held (in my case) no more than 31 files, with no fragmentation. Support for fragmentation came at a staggering performance cost, although I think that was Commodore just being plain nuts.

I'm not old enough to be a get-off-my-lawn curmudgeon!

[niubio]

Now that I know the meaning of the word, I can tell you I have a huge "backlog" not only on wiki img upload but also in "everyday" life, that's the reason for this long reply Ok, first let's sort out this wiki thing - what do you think I should add? For now, only new shots of ICL peerless come to my mind - not a problem. Would you like me to upload Alps clones and add this odd board to KB-6251 entry?

I'm going to read about RISC OS GUI tonight, that's for sure! It's the first time I've ever heard of it. Is this one your page?

33! I'm quite surprised! I'm 30, and couldn't agree more. Yesterday I performed a long, angry rant on Google when talking with my friend. I'm so pissed off about the fact that they stick JavaScript everywhere and hide basic options in complicated, multi-layered menus (for example in image search - that's just ridiculous, it was so simple back in the day! Not to mention groups search which is almost impossible to find for average user). And yeah, I've suffered tape loading on my C16 plus 4 too It was smuggled to Poland, thanks to the embargo during the '80. When I got my first PC I couldn't believe it was so fast and easy to load programs and files from floppies And then I got HDD... Speed gain was enormous.

And now I have over 100 hard drives in my warehouse, 40Gigs+ most of them. And do I find any good use for them...? Nope. They just sit there, waiting for "better" times I guess.

How exactly did this conversation wandered from Green Alps clones/ICLs to politics and '80 nostalgia?

Anyway, that's a picture of the label in the back:

[Daniel Beardsmore]

No, my page is this one: http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/ — though the Psion Revo screenshots on GUIdebook Gallery are mine.

ICL keyboard and Peerless switches, yes. NTC "KB-6752", yes. The clone switches, not unless you wanted to try taking one apart, as it would be interesting to know if they're the "big" or "small" contact blade type (AK-DN2 or AK-D5) but they're a headache to open and reassemble, so I wouldn't ask you to do that.

I forget what else you've posted recently. I'm still ill and not really keeping up as much as I would be normally. There's lots of stuff I've seen come up lately that I know won't go on the wiki, and will just get forgotten again for years. Some stuff I've left open in tabs in Firefox somewhere (amongst the hundreds of tabs across 11 Firefox windows) so that at some point I can at least put a reference back to the topic in question.

The funny thing is ever since I moved away from my 486 PC, it's felt like we've moving backwards. I booted up my old PII 333 recently, and I couldn't believe how slow it was — I don't see why it would have slowed down while left switched off, so was it really as bad back when I used to use it before? It really can't have been that bad. Even my StarMax is terribly slow now in comparison to modern computers. Maybe I should set the 486 up again one day and see how bad that also was.

[Hak Foo]

You speak of Commodore diskettes and "staggering performance cost"... given a 1541 drive, how would you notice?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not everyone had the same computer at one point. My school friends all had different systems.

Personally I've never used a C64 — the first time I saw a video of someone loading a program from diskette on a C64 I wasn't sure if they really could be that slow. Apparently, they really are. I am sure it was an improvement over cassette tape, but not by much. I'm used to games loading in a few seconds on a BBC Micro. My favourite was the CPC 464, where most games would load a high resolution title screen off cassette that took as long to come up as the game itself did. Not many Acorn software houses did anything that stupid — most title screens were designed to load quickly.

Then you had the Amiga, where the disc system was perfectly fast, but games were now taking a lot longer to load. The floppy drive sounded so nice though, you didn't mind at all =)

[niubio]

I've spent significant amount of time during the night browsing your page Daniel, reading about RISC OS GUI and all other stuff. It reminded me A LOT of late '90 when having a "home page" was a must. The funny thing is that I've gone through roughly similar phases as you - I've had "home server" in which I monitored network logs (I remember we discovered "silent scanning"/passive technique of "pinging" network routers used extensively by Exodus, which passed through routers that were not statefull). I remember some crazy connections to telnet port - there were script kiddies that tried to input "root.exe" or $hit like that, and once there was a connection from some IRIX station, initiated from port 1 - someone/something sent to me on login prompt a Borg quote: "Resistance is futile, you'll be assimilated". Like WTF! I've regulary posted some articles/reviews which no one ever read - not that I imply nobody read your stuff! There were dozens of incarnations of my site in which I posted really crazy stuff. I would rather not think about how much time got wasted over writing texts, designing new layouts, editing photos, etc. I have my own personal favourite Winamp 2.x skin which I use to this day. What else... I posted articles from '80 magazines - for example computer long-forgotten science quizes! To this day I've my own art gallery which no one cares about and spent a good amount of time during my childhood drawing heavy space cruisers (got a little inspired by Doom).

Anyway, it was fun to browse! And those advanced techniques that utilize mouse and keyboard/window focus in RISC OS... It's confusing in some points (you pointed out a good example), but on the other side - there's so much we could have gained if someone can revive the idea!

I think mouse is in defence right now, thanks to tablets and game controlers. I personally hate "gestures" and all those eye-candy morphing effects when you "slide". I HATE THOSE!

I'll add peerless pics and some description to "KB-6752" section. Tomorrow or even today. I've got a little tired over cleaning an old PBX, but maybe I'll find some steam!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Good guess. My website was not truly a colossal waste of time, as it provided motivation towards a lot of experimentation and learning, but it always depressed me that, while other website owners were drowning in correspondence, I was never sure whether there was even anyone out there. That's what comes from being the most boring person on the planet. I don't use Winamp at home any more — the new versions don't like mp3Cue, which is now unmaintained, and rather than run an old version, I just moved to foobar2000. It's delightfully minimalist, and I've learned to live with the alternative form of cuesheet support (virtual playlist entries, which honestly does make far more sense). Most of my artwork never left paper. Very long story.

Homepages are a good example of a dimensionality problem. A personal website allows you to present yourself as a person comprehensively, and tie together a lot of different types of work. Your identity is far more distinct, and you have far more scope for originality and personality. The down side is that everyone has to reinvent or re-implement common technology, and you don't get the social integration benefits of websites such as Flickr and (back in the day) LiveJournal. The same information can be collected, stored and presented in radically different ways. I guess most people don't notice that their social integration has sucked out their identity — most people are desperate to conform, rather than being desperate to keep their identity distinct from everyone else's. I still remember seeing several people at a bus stop all twiddling on their mobiles, and they all looked like clones or robots; I felt so repulsed by it that I was put off owning a mobile phone for years. (I still don't have one, but it's no longer on ideological grounds — I just have no friends ; ) Plus they're all garbage.)

I use mouse gestures in Windows by way of StrokeIt! — most commonly diagonal gestures for minimise and maximise. Sometimes also "C" for close window, though at no point over the year I've owned this PC have I ever configured it to close tabs in Firefox. For back/forward, I just bought five-button mice, as that's so much more convenient, even if the mice themselves really suck. I've yet to find any way to switch task using gestures or mouse buttons, which is a frustration. That's why I was considering a Roccat mouse, with a full 7 buttons, but then I'd be tied to some stupid buggy software (I don't know that Windows natively understands more than 5 buttons) and I don't trust Roccat to make a decent scroll wheel that clicks easily and has a good grip for hot summer weather when you've got sweaty fingers (a real problem with some Dell mice, with smooth wheels). Tilt wheels mess up middle-click, as do smooth-rotating wheels. Also, my mice have buggy firmware! Microsoft mice are buggy garbage.

Animations help solve a human psychological problem, where people overlook instantaneous changes, or don't understand what they saw (where did something just come from/go to). By introducing a delay, you're forced to notice something and you get critical cues. The trouble is that neither Mac OS nor Windows gives you configurable timing, and the default speed is too slow for me, and I don't need them. Windows 8 is not as bad as XP, where the minimise and maximise animations felt glacial. I've disabled animations in 8 not because I dislike them, but because there are one or two that were too annoying, and the only choice I had was to switch off all of them.

[niubio]

Heh... I'm surprised you've changed to Win8. I still use WinXP Tablet Edition (on TC1100 - this beast is 11 years old now). I've disabled all animations, window enchancements and stuff like that. I'm a hardcore desktop PC user I guess. I've read about your new Microsoft mouse - much fun. To be fair, I wouldn't notice that cursor drops by 1 pixel, but maybe I pay attention to such details in different places.

I have to say that I don't like cues, although I see why people use them. That's why I stick to Winamp 2.95, tried 3 and 5 but those players are a total bloatware for me. Foobar2k is OK, but I couldn't find a good reason to change my player - Winamp offers everything I'll ever need (or so I hope).

I share your view on originality-identity versus social acceptance. Your opinion sparkled a long discussion with my gf - about social networks, "sandboxes" everywhere and how all this influence our daily life, how for example I'm treated as a total weirdo because of my hoarding rather than an interesting person - an effect of standing up against "the system" or whatever you wanna call it. It's too bad my poor linguistic skills significantly limit available scope to express myself here, sorry... take my word for it, in polish I could go on and on about this

I was thinking about geting rid of my mobile for a long time. Got it around 2006 - I was under pressure from my university friends, and gave up at one point. I still wonder why I choose to conform now... I don't need it to perform any task that couldn't be done with a PC. It's a deceit - just like FB - that I'm "in touch". Yeah, like whatever. I don't have a FB account though, dumped it 2 years ago.

I'm puzzled by this "most boring person" thing. It all depends on pespective, doesn't it? Are you a self-proclaimed bore, or is this some sort of social award? It's even more interesting now for me, after reading things you've just pointed out in your post I'm definitely in no position to make any judgements here (as a GH newb) but for me this place is full of very intelligent & interesting people, you with your vast knowledge being a prime example of it.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Winamp's classic skin is weird — it's senselessly, horribly cramped. The modern skin system was indeed bloated back when I had a PII 333 — it tripled the RAM usage from "only" 10 MB, to 30 MB! I didn't have 30 MB spare at the time. This is what I was accustomed to:



The UI I mostly interact with now is True Launch Bar's Media Control plugin, which uses my custom-drawn skin, along with a set of custom drawn icons and a matching custom-drawn icon for the network traffic monitor:

1 px cursor jumps are really annoying if you're trying to crop images! Photoshop 7 doesn't have the ability to alter selections with the keyboard, so you can end up selecting the same image region five, ten, fifteen times or more as the mouse jumps when you release the button or you throw the mouse out of the window. Since Irfan Skiljan fixed and improved cursor key selection manipulation in IrfanView, I use that instead now. I also switched off Firefox's shift+wheel (?) history control, as the stray wheel events from the mouse, while I was typing, would send me back a page if I had shift held at the time, and lose everything I'd typed on sites that block preservation of form input across back/forward. I've been using mice for many years — it takes Microsoft to get something so simple, so badly wrong. We also have a Microsoft-branded toolkit in the office: the tweezers are hilariously useless, and the screwdrivers are really badly made and one of them has already broken.

I am not aware that people do describe me as boring; rather, it's an interpretation of observations of reality, as opposed to what people say. There are other possible interpretations. How people describe their feelings, and their actions, often don't tie together, though.

BTW, in terms of being boring, take for example this topic: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55412.0 — dead. I find that within any community, there are specific unspoken trends that you're expected to fit into. When it comes to keyboards, you're supposed fit one of several moulds: a) love IBM Model F/M/beam spring; b) love rewiring keyboards or replacing controllers; c) be a fan of 60% keyboards; d) not own any keyboard with original keycaps; e) love Topre. If you don't fit any of these, you won't be shunned, but you'll be left wondering how you can still be left in the cold in a community dedicated to something you love. I find the same thing every place, every time. I seem to have a predisposition towards interests that inherently exclude other people, and my whole mental model inescapably excludes women. The only subject where I figure I could conceptually stand a chance is rail transport, but that's far harder to get into and I remain too much of a noob, while at the same time it's not a subject that sufficiently targets the kind of people I can actually tolerate without wanting to strangle them to death.

It might also be why I remain the only person who truly takes the Deskthority wiki seriously, although my interest lately has really faded.

[niubio]

This classfields post transformed my life into a true postal nightmare! My fingers were dying after pulling dozens of caps for shipping. Only today I've got some time to rest and at least reply!

I didn't have 30 MB spare at the time. This is what I was accustomed to...

Nice! I remember when we were running WinPlay3 (or sth like that) in high school on 386/486/4MB and Windows 3.1. You had to uncheck "high quality" option, but still, it was better than nothing.

The UI I mostly interact with now is True Launch Bar's Media Control plugin...

Nice and simple! Thinking of it again, I rarely use any controls on my Winamp 2. Sometimes I focus it and change volume with scroll (without moving the cursor over the player window). But then, most of the time I use my deck volume control. I like to treat albums "the old way" (like when there were only cassetes, and it was pain in the butt to rewind them - ppl often gave up and listened to the whole thing).

Anyway, if you like to be "in control" of your player, I cannot imagine better alternative than "a remote" docked to your taskbar. Yeah, those keyboard controlers... I think they suck.

...1 px cursor jumps are really annoying if you're trying to crop images!...

I always use cursors to alter selection... Gosh, it would be a nightmare without them!

I also switched off Firefox's shift+wheel (?) history control, as the stray wheel events from the mouse, while I was typing, would send me back a page if I had shift held at the time, and lose everything I'd typed...

OMG, are you serious? But you were using this wheel, right? It's not that mouse decided to send an input signal on it's own?

We also have a Microsoft-branded toolkit in the office: the tweezers are hilariously useless, and the screwdrivers are really badly made and one of them has already broken.

"Microsoft branded toolkit"? LOL. At first I thought you were talking about some wicked icon from MS Office toolbar "Tweezers? Like next the scissors icon?". I would like to see that, really Redmond rebranding a crappy toolkit manufactured in China. That's sweet. What's next, Microsoft branded power drill?

I find that within any community, there are specific unspoken trends that you're expected to fit into. When it comes to keyboards, you're supposed fit one of several moulds:...

Hell yeah! I've noticed the same thing at the very beginning, after spending a week around here! Topre this, topre that, clacks, IBM and cherry MX from time to time. It's rather amusing for me, because personally I would never spend so much money on clack f.e.. But hey, as a free man you can decide for yourself what do you want to do with your money, what excites you the most, right? We live in a strange society, in every freakin' aspect of your life someone wants to sell you a gadget of some sort. I say: "vintage computer", they give me T-shirt with Atari logo. I say: "friendship", they give me smartphone with social app to "stay in touch". I guess the same can be said about keyboards

I don't glorify any switch, but I like some of them (green Alps clone). I have to say I dislike some of them... But I'm not "a fanboy" or "a hater". I'm not even a heavy keyboard user. Hell, I even cannot touch-type! I just love to hoard them, clean/retrobrgight them, make some pics/video and write a thing or two after doing some research. It's just interesting, that's it. It's a piece of computer history. It doesn't matter if it's a rubber dome, plain membrane, reed or ultra-complicated mechanical from Siemens. Tell me, is it A4 KL-23mu's fault that it just SUCKS BALLS in every aspect? It's just part of history, that's all. We're going to laugh hard about 2000'-2010', beause so much crap has been defecated from far east - just like we laugh now about original Spectrum keyboard But still, it's all part of history, and I treat it this way. If no one's going to give a damn about this equipement, all this information would be lost forever!

It doesn't matter for me that nowadays "noone cares". I think it's a thing that "should be done", period. Maybe there'll be a global disaster of some sort, or en-masse enlightement, I don't know... and ppl will wake up, start to care? Or maybe this info will provide usefull for a guy or two. Or maybe someone will be inspired by the thing I write right now, who knows? I tend not to think about it, rather I prefer to do it, that's all.

It might also be why I remain the only person who truly takes the Deskthority wiki seriously, although my interest lately has really faded.

People constantly keep asking me about my keyboards for sale linking to deskthority... as a source of authority! Like the case with white complicated Alps - I finally understood the visual difference between them thanks to DT! I would say this page is treated VERY seriously. Maybe there are not that many contributors to add new stuff or correct anything that's already there...

I disagree with you. A little I have been learning from scratch how to disassemble a keyboard, how to clean it, retrobright properly, even how to sell it! I've never, I mean NEVER received any positive feedback during the last two years. And here - it's quite a different story. People from Asia, America PM me with broken English, I send parcels overseas, I've never made so much photos/videos in my life! It's a freakin' privilege for me to read opinions of such gurus like YOU! People are quarreling about niuanses like activation point, click sound - that's funny as hell for me! I really like to read new posts, if only I had more time to do it

Overall, it's really, I mean REALLY good to be here. Maybe my demands are a little now, I don't know... I'm a simple folk from Poland after all! KIELBASA, WODKA, BIGOS!

I'll update peerless and KB-6251 tomorrow, I promise! Speaking of KB-6251, I've found another one - this time with fake white cherries [ link ] [ video ] FCC ID: LIAKB-6251. Optimus SA logo. Really nice board. I'll add some photos to wiki

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What seems to happen, is that the mouse isn't clearing its ring buffer correctly, or something like that, so it randomly repeats the last event on a trigger. Button events will trigger the last motion event to be re-sent, causing the cursor to jump in the direction it was previously moving. Use of the wheel will cause a duplicate wheel event to be randomly sent a few seconds after you last used the wheel — I don't know the specific trigger for that one. It's some sort of bug in the firmware, I guess; at home it has now taken to randomly interpreting a rapid motion to the top-right screen corner, to as a rapid motion to the top-left screen corner. I do use a program that sends wheel events to the window under the mouse, instead of the window that is focused, but I've used two different such programs, under two different operating systems on three different computers, and I get the same bug every time.

My optomechanical IntelliMouse had a wheel bug too — there was a bug report filed about it for Firefox, with a lot of "me too" comments, and the only conclusion anyone could draw was that it was a bug in the IntelliMouse. If I remember correctly, it was something like a middle button press after use of the wheel would send the wrong event to the computer and the click got blocked. I liked the way IntelliPoint handled wheel acceleration, but it would block a middle click directly after a wheel event, which was something I was doing constantly (switch tab in Firefox, and then close the tab under the cursor), so I uninstalled it.

With the IntelliMouse Optical I appear to have a bad batch, as I am the only person on the planet to ever have these problems, and it's a very widely used mouse!

Mice have just got stupider and stupider, with rubbish firmware, wheels that you can't click to save your life (especially anything Logitech — one of mine had a "bottomless pit" wheel that seemed to go down forever if you tried pressing it, or the tilt wheel messes it up, or there are no detents and it just spins instead of clicking …), and far too many place buttons 4 and 5 in a line, where anyone who uses a claw grip can't reach one of them. The only reason I've kept the StupidoMouse Optical is that the wheel is clickable, and that button 5 is on the right where I can actually reach it.

Maybe one day Windows will officially recognise more buttons, so I don't fear being beholden to proprietary drivers if I want a 7-button mouse, such as a Roccat Kova

• [sic].

(Edit: excellent, Roccat chose a name that isn't printable in BBCode!)

I have a similar view with the wiki — I've tried to treat everything fairly and equally, with coverage of subjects such as pad printing and membrane rubber dome keyboards, simply because people deserve to understand the whole spectrum of keyboard technology. The amount of people who haven't got a clue what the difference between membrane and rubber dome is, is quite telling. How can anyone be an honest proponent of a subject area they don't understand? A lot of it mirrors my own learning process.

There are areas I tend to avoid, such as IBM, not out of favouritism towards other products, but simply because there are so many people who know far more about the subject than I do, and it makes more sense that they take care of it. I didn't even have a Model M until recently. I did add some photos of it to the wiki, as there are virtually no detail or disassembly shots of Model F or M keyboards. I didn't even know what a "bolt mod" was; I created a stub page so at least it would be formally documented, and this is how it's sat since June last year:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Bolt_mod


Yeah, the Aristotle switch KB-625X series got a little odd:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52391.0

Switch: Aristotle Cherry MX clone


The funny thing about t-shirts is that none of them "capture" me. I've looked at so many sites, and every time, I conclude that everything I see (that isn't plain dumb, like the endlessly repeated 127.0.0.1 jokes) ends up being (from my perspective, not everyone's) pretentious or simply not a representation of what I do, think or feel. I've considered having a design of my own printed; maybe one day.

My favourite is the "Roses are red" one from ThinkGeek, where violets are described as a colour that doesn't match the printed text or the colour of the flower. Why on earth would I want a t-shirt that loudly proclaims an inability to read hex colour codes? (Then again, why would you describe something that's violet, as "blue" anyway?)

I don't pay mobile "apps" much attention as I don't have anything to run them on. I do have Windows 8, but I just treat it as though it were 7 without all the overblown, garish window decorations. Windows 7's "glass" reflections … seriously, they look dreadful.

The funny thing about Windows 8's "Windows store apps" is that they're a capitulation to the way many people still think of a computer: a machine that can only do one thing at a time. Instead of finding ways to make multitasking easier to understand, let's just throw it out the window. I seem to recall in 8.1 that you might finally be allowed two PDFs open at the same time? I know that Psion EPOC defaulted to a limit of one file per program (existing processes would get re-used), but there was an easily-discoverable checkbox to allow multiple processes of the same program if that's how you wanted to work (except it was more clearly labelled).

[niubio]

Mhmm... A random mouse behavior like that would outrage my instantly and I would probably return it ASAP (given that guarantee period is still valid). Funny thing you mention too-deep wheels on Logitech - I've noticed that too during my lectures in computer labs. I use wheel-middle-click so often that it would be a real nightmare to stick with sth like that! And guess what - my primary mouse is... Logitech, model RX 250. It came in set with 250 Deluxe, which I still use everyday with TC1100, despite my recent efforts to upgrade. Anyway, me and my RX 250 have spent 5 long years together.  The bottom label is barely decipherable. And the wheel works flawlessly, even after all those years! It's kind off odd - that's a really generic input device. Same can be said about 250 Deluxe...

I feel sorry for your IntelliMouse problems! Maybe you should try sth. else? Like go to a TechMarket? You know, you can check many models @ once, maybe even attach them to your laptop. I wonder if there's at least one decent model manufactured nowadays...

Now that I'm thinking... I had a Microsoft mouse once! Some basic model... And as I recall, I stumbled upon this "rapid motion to the corner of the screen" thing! God damn, that was annoying as hell! I've used it sporadically at work, and never wanted to see it again (after I quit my job).


You got a solid point about wiki - I mean the bolt mod that's so popular, and it's still in a stub state. That's just... odd. And now I understand why you create a stub and then wait for others to expand. It keeps the community in motion and you cannot be accused of "article monopoly" that way - like there are different "experts" on different subject matters. That's the way it should be done! I couldn't tell a defference between membrane and rubber domes for quite a long period of time

Well, I'll try my best to share my "knowledge" and - more importantly - some media on deskthority, and on my page. I have so many rubberdomes/asian mechanicals, rest assured that all of them will find their way to the Internet one day, that's my mission



...and that's not even half of them!

I'm not a T-shirt fan myself. Well, I've picked one I like at a thrift shop - "BFG - the gamers joice". A-ha! I've even found it online! It was in a pile "imported" from GB. I now laugh my ass off @ this ridiculous price - mine was 1 (one) polish zloty (it's 1/3 USD). I seriously have no idea why do I like this one... I'm not a gamer or anything like that.

Also, I'm not a giant fan of "geeky" shirts, all "geeky" gadgets in general... I guess you either have love for them or you don't.

The "single-tasking" approach of Windows 8 blows. The perfect example of it is a minesweeper app. Full screen minesweeper. That's just stupid. I'll never get used to those tiles and full screen focus, forced down consumer throat.

EDIT Ok, now I've added almost everything to deskthority! Peerless + KB-6251. I'll upload Optimus board photos later

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm far too lazy to try finding somewhere in London that has a large selection of mice out on display for testing — assuming such a place exists, as that sounds like the sort of shop that you would only find in Japan. I did buy a couple of Microsoft Comfort Mouse 4500 mice, and sent back the unopened one after realising how pathetic the wheel was. The mouse was comfortable and did have an ambidextrous design with button 4 on the left and 5 on the right, but it was designed for people who don't use middle mouse or wheel scrolling (as it was detentless scrolling). I gave away the other one. That's when I asked around for advice and settled on the IntelliMouse Optical from recommendations … so much for that idea.

Random motion to screen corner was a common problem with optical mice, and probably indicated an unsuitable surface. I stuck to optomechanical mice for years because the maintenance was far less of a concern than the random cursor movement that plagued early models, but modern optical mice work pretty much perfectly. Except for those made by Microsoft.

The great thing about that BFG t-shirt is that it's a wonderful demonstration of obsolescence: you're a walking billboard for dead websites!

I don't have Minesweeper on my PC, or Solitaire for that matter. It never occurred to me to ever look for them. Strange. Ah, apparently they're also no longer bundled as standard.

A switch close-up of the KB-6251 would be useful for clear identification purposes.

All those keyboards are going to take several lifetimes to process — you're not working on human cloning, are you?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

PS: I presume "Desoldered XT/AT switch" means that the switch was not fitted to the PCB in the factory? "Desoldered" implies that you removed it yourself.

[jacobolus]

I think Microsoft makes lousy operating systems, productivity applications, keyboards, etc., but I have always had great success with their mice.

Since Logitech seems to no longer make more than one simple basic mouse (I really liked the MX310), the Microsoft one is pretty much the cheapest solid mouse (nice shape, 4-5 buttons, an okay scroller) on the market at this point.

I haven’t used the most recent iterations, but the several Microsoft “intellimouse” mice I have had all worked flawlessly.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Just to add my 2 cents about the deskthority wiki, I use it to look up things I've come across or get more details about something I have. For example, space invaders, I have three and all are black clicky with the light blue spacebar switch. There's nothing for me to add, as that seems to be a fairly standard fare for those. Seeing some other types taken apart is good to know. If I ended up getting something which was not there at all I'd add it. I was even thinking I'd get to add something to the post on orange alps, because my M0116 that I just got has the long grey switchplate and I only remembered seeing something about one being white but when I checked the grey one was totally there also. But discovery is a bit of a problem. I got my space invaders, and monterey blue keyboard because from reading various posts, etc, I knew what they were (nice clicky switches) and what keyboards they are found in, and then started looking for those on ebay and such.

The bolt mod stub is something else - when it's switches they are physical objects which can be described and all facts about them can be recorded and tested, such as force curves. Beyond what is already there in the stub is no longer one way fact of how it always is whenever it is observed. It is a method which can be done in many different ways. If I ever wanted to do one I'd try to find a how-to post from someone like fohat.digs or try and find ripster's guide. I wouldn't even think to look at the wiki for that.

[niubio]

Whew... I've spent the last 24 hours trying to introduce some order/organisation to my restoration efforts. I started with sorting out my collection, putting boards on different piles depending on the degradation state they are in. So there was a "good condition" pile, a pile ready for some retrobrite action and one with missing caps. Those incomplete boards had bugged me a lot, so I decided to open up an old cardbox filled with caps. Well, this box has it's own history... I pulled them out from destroyed boads in my old work around 6 years ago (!) - I wanted to use them for some art project, and totally forgot about it.

So I opened up the box, took a peek inside... Gosh, that's a lot of caps! And what's that...? Isn't this... WhatTF! Did a cap from ICL dropped here...? Holy crap, it can't be...



Yeah. I've found some peerless caps - same board, same layout (PL), complete with those small plastic tubes and springs (!). I'm still missing a function cap and "/" and "*" num caps but... whatever. I mean what are the odds? I know, I live in Gdansk - those boards I had pulled caps back then were taken from a giant pile of junk ready for recycling. And this recent ICL came from a recycling company located in Gdansk. But how in earth both ended up in my hands - such a random coincidence. Do not think ICLs are that common around here! Also, I have absolutely no recollection of pulling those caps!

Now that my ICL is "complete" I'm ready for a "reloaded" version of photos and video I'm thinking about checking the pinout and attaching a cable to make this thing work. I personally like peerless switches - don't know why people hate them.

Anyway, I've also found two "traditional" peerless caps - the same type that was originaly posted on wiki (now I'm 100% sure switches on "my" peerless and "wiki" ones have different, incompatible caps!), some doubleshots, tons of rubber dome caps, some stabilizers, foam-over-foil BTC sliders and other keyboard stuff. So now I have a huge collection of spares! I immediately used them to fill the blanks on incomplete boards - now I've only 5 units with missing caps.

Turned out there are 30+ more mechanical boards in my basement ready to get some action! Ok, now get ready for another surprise: I've found ANOTHER TWO wicked KB-6251s! First one got green linears - just like the "6752 EA", but has different back label! It says: KB-6251LN (LN stands for "linear" i guess...?), FCC ID: FMA44HKB6251 (same as on other boards). Haven't looked inside yet. The other has... blue Alps clones! Those are definitely clones - but not from Hua-Jie (different numbering). Will post some pics after I clean/retrobright them. So I've got three different kinds of 6251s: green lineras, blue clickers and this optimus rebrand.

Sad news is that I've cracked my UV aquarium, so my work is going to be delayed.

You are right about this Daniel - "desoldered" is misleading. I'll replace it with "missing", and add a switch close-up. I've also noticed one more glitch in my description, 'll take care of that in a minute.

I don't think that it'll take THAT much time to refurbish those boards. During the last summer I could "process" around 8 boards a day. I still wonder how all off this is possible under those terrible conditions... (I'm still mad about this aquarium thing - of only I had a workshop of some sort...).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I wouldn't say "missing" — I would go with "not fitted", as I suspect that Nan Tan were no longer concerned with supporting the XT protocol and stopped fitting the XT/AT switch to the PCB. Why waste money on a switch that's no longer relevant? I was pondering on it last night — is the controller in AT mode when the switch is open? If they replaced the controller, would the new controller simply ignore the leg(s) that are wired to where the switch should be?

I would imagine that the complaint about Peerless switches is that they're a little stiff and mushy. They don't have the sharp, clear tactility that you get from Alps. My primary complaint is the abominable stabilisation, but I am suspecting that I washed off some lubricant when I stripped it down and cleaned it. I don't think it was anywhere near as bad before that. I also never got the space bar's stiffening spring back in place correctly.

The FKB4700 to me feels like a Model M knock-off — the feel is similar, you've got the same curved backplane, you've got snap-on keycaps, and even the ISO enter key is stepped just like a Model M.

It looks like Nan Tan were trying to outdo rivals Chicony and Focus for sheer number of switches fitted to the same keyboard!

I used to collect telephone cards (and I still have my whole collection), and I've had many dreams of finding a telephone booth, opening it, and finding it filled and overflowing with thousands of cards, before promptly waking up. I've only had a couple of dreams that involved finding keyboards — I am surprised I've not had more, though where I'd put them all in real life, I have no idea.

Instead, I shall explore keyboards through you by proxy ;-)

I think Microsoft makes lousy operating systems, productivity applications, keyboards, etc., but I have always had great success with their mice.

It just seems to be me … but then, it always is. Sadly there is no glory in life for finding all the bugs in software and hardware, just headaches. See my now-dead pseudo-blog:

http://telcontar.net/Screenshots/botm.php

The bolt mod stub is something else - when it's switches they are physical objects which can be described and all facts about them can be recorded and tested, such as force curves. Beyond what is already there in the stub is no longer one way fact of how it always is whenever it is observed. It is a method which can be done in many different ways. If I ever wanted to do one I'd try to find a how-to post from someone like fohat.digs or try and find ripster's guide. I wouldn't even think to look at the wiki for that.

My views on the wiki are ultimately solely my own views. That said, it's not Wikipedia. There's no policy against original research, because most of what we're doing with keyboards is original research. It's a knowledgebase, not an encyclopaedia, and as such, guides are perfectly OK.

As for multiple approaches, one could provide several sample pictures per step, illustrating the different approaches that can be taken. The only concern there is for people struggling to read or machine-translate English, who might not understand what's being depicted.

As I see it, though, the wiki is the perfect place to write about bolt mods.

[niubio]

I think it's just the switch that's missing. I can compare "regular" PCB with a "stripped" one later. Funny thing is there's a huge demand for XT boards nowadays, as they are nowhere to be found - retromaniac with an XT has a serious problem if his/her board breaks. He/she can go as far as to solder the switch back! Isn't that ironic? I can tell you that this model was widely adopted here in the early '90 - and in most cases the switch wasn't fitted.

I didn't notice this "mushiness" you describe on my ICL... But yeah, peerless definitely lack Alps tactility.

I think I'm getting a little bit lunatic about this keyboard business... Was thinking yesterday about getting a typewriter or two. Dammit, I have to buy one! Don't know where I'm going to keep it though...

You've got some really geeky dreams Daniel  Your little fantasy reminded me of phreakers in the late '90. If they had/made a service key than opened a public phone (which utilized magnetic cards), they could came in late at night, open it up, block the card "return" slot with a duct tape from above. If someone wanted to use the phone, he would do it normally, but after making a call the card snapped to the bottom of the box instead of falling to the dispenser. In the '90 people didn't use mobiles, so it was common to see them standing in lines near a booth. After a couple days when you opened up such "blocked" phone, all stashed cards could literally pour out of it.

I've read about this "method" in some phreak FAQ, didn't carry out a stunt like that in my lifetime unfortunately... I opened up a public phone once when I was 15 - and stole the alphanumeric LCD screen. To this day I've no idea why Gosh, I was stupid back then...

http://telcontar.net/Screenshots/botm.php

Hey. that's a cool idea! Big LOL at audiogalaxy support in BT Voyager, like WTF Guess those "engineers" didn't have a clue what it is, just implemented the damn port number along with a caption - and put it in "Games" section. I remember downloading ultra-rare stuff from AG satellite, this stuff is nowhere to be found nowadays. And those forums... they were sooo fast (UBB if I remember correctly), simple and popular! You could chat directly with the artists there. But, just like any other good thing on the Internet it was shut down.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That's what I meant: the switch is not fitted. I imagine it was considered unnecessary. There's no shortage of XT and XT/AT keyboard around!


The funny thing is, no-one seems to have ever documented how BT phonecard readers worked. From what I understand, they used a holographic strip that was covered with a layer of paint that was opaque to a human, but transparent to a laser. Units (of credit on the card) were deducted by burning out parts of the strip with the laser beam. The original cards had no usage indication, but you could see where the paint was wrinkled and use that as an indication.

Later issue cards replaced the paint over the holographic strip with a substance that would be scorched a little by the laser, giving you a (frequently somewhat faint) readout of usage. As I recall, the card didn't disappear into the phone, so you would never be able to steal people's cards — I think it was just locked in place under physical pressure while you were making a call; the laser marking was only made at the end of the call (I think some machines may have marked off every unit that was used up, but I'm not sure on that).

I don't know whether there was a special pattern to the strip to prevent anyone recreating it. I presume any measures put in place by a phreaker to block the laser burning would prevent the card from being read at all.

What you did have was a bin on the wall inside the phone booth to collect used cards, with a slot designed to fit a card. This had a swing-down front that was released using a specially-shaped bar; we got a look at this tool once during a random encounter with a bin-emptying man, and my father persuaded him to demonstrate the tool to us. He then created a replica of it so that we could raid the bins for all the used cards. I don't know whether BT recycled the old cards to retrieve the plastic, or just threw them away.

From a quick search on Google, no-one else has ever written about this anywhere!

From my own collection:

Sample thematic cards, BT holographic strip, later white version:


Sample definitive and thematic BT chip cards:


Complimentary cards in various styles; the squirrel card is from the layer below, as I don't have a redesign issue green strip card:


To get 200 unit (£20?) cards, you needed a reversible card with two strips; these were a real rarity to find in the wild!


White strip holographic thematic card, showing the indication burn marks along the strip:


The card above appears to have 3 units (30 p?) of credit remaining when it was discarded.

I have on at least one occasion actually seen the holographic strip under the paint — I just recall that it was a swirly pattern or something.

Maybe one day, if I decide I need a scanner again, and I find one that doesn't suck, maybe I'll scan in my collection. At the moment it's just sat out of the way on a shelf.

[niubio]

That's a superb collection Daniel! I was one step away from buying some old phone cards online I see that they were using two totally different technologies in GB and Poland. We had "magnetic strip" cards - looking somewhat like this:



They were somehow similar to "classic" ID cards and credit cards. You could easily make a fake one if you had a "square signal" generator or sth. like this. I know people were using VHS recorders to cheat on Polish Telecom. Anyway, public phones in Poland looked like this:



As you can see, where were two small holes - above and near the bottom - to insert and receive a phone card. So it was possible to steal them if you block the lower dispenser with a tape