Petition for new IBM M hybrid?

[FPGA-88]

Forgive my somewhat dissonant and probably not the most informed position on the latest mechanical state of afairs. I’m sure community like Geeckhack has explored a great depth of possibilities and discussion of the best and latest mechanical offer.

Nevertheless. Although like many of you, when input requires reliable strokes, M keyboard, always finds its way on my desk.  Quite recently the mention of green switches where the same (never had chance to confirm myself) closely matches IBM’s BSD, again, raised my curiosity?

IBM’s financial power, know-how and on monthly basis, output of patents puts most of the companies into the shade. But, when I think of proposition to address their wis, strikes me as wall of bureaucracy, almost an island to reach, before you could even speak to first available humanoid.

So in this light, have you ever discussed the possibility for IBM to create a new range of M keyboards, while securing all the properties of the famous tactile bliss. But, naturally with modern and revised shape, but mostly,  being able to cover both wired/wireless needs and supplied with serious macro and programming capabilities. A mere triviality as financial side of IBM is concerned. But to reach their attention? 

[fohat.digs]

IBM sold not only the patents but the factory and equipment itself to Lexmark, about 20 years ago, then Unicomp.

Unicomp in Lexington Kentucky would be your avenue of approach.

[Thagarr]

Unicomp in Lexington Kentucky would be your avenue of approach.

I believe the correct term you are looking for here is Cul-de-sac.

[vivalarevolución]

Considering that IBM has been divesting out of hardware for awhile now, and just sold their server business to Lenovo, I doubt we will ever seem them jump back into the keyboard biz.

And as fohat.digs mentioned, Unicomp holds down the fort these, albeit below our expectations.

http://www.pckeyboard.com/

[FPGA-88]

IBM sold not only the patents but the factory and equipment itself to Lexmark, about 20 years ago, then Unicomp. Unicomp in Lexington Kentucky would be your avenue of approach.

Thank you for note of sobering recollection. Indeed, my idealistic formulation of IBM as "the source" made me forget about Lexmark dates and facts. On the same note :

Unicomp in Lexington Kentucky would be your avenue of approach.

I believe the correct term you are looking for here is Cul-de-sac.

Hm, so you are not singing the praise about their comunication? It is general sentiment on Geekhack? I'm sure they are treating their customers in proper manner, but is this related to their R&D motivation, to go beyoned present products? If you would share some more light please?

Considering that IBM has been divesting out of hardware for awhile now, and just sold their server business to Lenovo, I doubt we will ever seem them jump back into the keyboard biz. And as fohat.digs mentioned, Unicomp holds down the fort these, albeit below our expectations. http://www.pckeyboard.com/

I see. Well, a very sad prospect

On the other hand, while Cherry maintains some effort in their own range of "home range" products, certainly design wise, still, there is so much more to be desired. Could Cherry fullfill the dreams of topic's subject?

[vivalarevolución]

I see. Well, a very sad prospect

On the other hand, while Cherry maintains some effort in their own range of "home range" products, certainly design wise, still, there is so much more to be desired. Could Cherry fullfill the dreams of topic's subject?

The best bet for a top quality buckling spring keyboard probably lies among the community and perhaps improvements in 3D printing.  Imagine if we were all able to print own cases, for example.  You might find these links of interest:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33430.0

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/a-proposal-for-a-new-ssk-t6977-510.html

[jdcarpe]

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

[SpAmRaY]

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

So capacitive buckling springs HHKB layout?

[fohat.digs]

so you are not singing the praise about their comnunication? It is general sentiment on Geekhack? I'm sure they are treating their customers in proper manner, but is this related to their R&D motivation, to go beyond present products?

This is correct. The quality of their products is quite serviceable, and their customer service is exceptionally good.

They hint that they might bring back the SSK, but nobody here really expects that to happen. Otherwise, don't expect new products.

[FPGA-88]

Prdlm2009 and Jdcarpe,

I have to agree with you and shake my indolent approach.

I will follow this with great interest.
 
I’m a bit worried that many of GH members seem to prefer keyboards without numeric pads. Is this recent trend, or we are equally supported in projects?  By equally I mean, those of us, with almost religious need for numeric pads. I’m ready to rethink any shape and design essence, as long you are not upsetting the economy of traditional layout, and holy order of keys.

[vivalarevolución]

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

If controllers are ready to roll, what would be the only thing holding back the capacitive buckling spring concept from reality?  Case manufacturing?  Availability of the capacitive membrane or whatever it is called?

[Parak]

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

If controllers are ready to roll, what would be the only thing holding back the capacitive buckling spring concept from reality?  Case manufacturing?  Availability of the capacitive membrane or whatever it is called?

Molding of new barrels and flip plates, primarily. The two require a pretty exacting copy in order to function, and especially the flippy needs to be of a specific type of material as well. Oh, and 3d printing, even via shapeways or such, is not exact enough. If you know of an injection molding facility that does very small quantity prototyping, let me know

There's no capacitive membrane - it's 'just' a pcb, though the design of it is very much unlike that of a cherry pcb.

[vivalarevolución]

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

If controllers are ready to roll, what would be the only thing holding back the capacitive buckling spring concept from reality?  Case manufacturing?  Availability of the capacitive membrane or whatever it is called?

Molding of new barrels and flip plates, primarily. The two require a pretty exacting copy in order to function, and especially the flippy needs to be of a specific type of material as well. Oh, and 3d printing, even via shapeways or such, is not exact enough. If you know of an injection molding facility that does very small quantity prototyping, let me know

There's no capacitive membrane - it's 'just' a pcb, though the design of it is very much unlike that of a cherry pcb.

Thanks, I have not got to the point of tearing apart a Model F down to that level, even though I have two sitting at home.

[vivalarevolución]

I’m a bit worried that many of GH members seem to prefer keyboards without numeric pads. Is this recent trend, or we are equally supported in projects?  By equally I mean, those of us, with almost religious need for numeric pads. I’m ready to rethink any shape and design essence, as long you are not upsetting the economy of traditional layout, and holy order of keys.

Regarding this comment it would be great if we could also develop a buckling spring numpad to complement the fervor for the SSK.  That would be the best of both worlds.

The supply of full-size Model M's is much larger than the SSK, and Unicomp still produces the full size models in a variety of shapes and size, which is why you probably do not see the same enthusiasm for a community-driven revival of the full-size version.

[Snarfangel]

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

So capacitive buckling springs HHKB layout?

Put capacitive buckling springs  in a Maltron, and it might be worth it to buy one.  )

Don't tell me about how that would ruin all of the ergonomics or whatnot. A man can dream.

[dorkvader]

Put capacitive buckling springs  in a Maltron, and it might be worth it to buy one.  )

Don't tell me about how that would ruin all of the ergonomics or whatnot. A man can dream.

This will be possible in the near future. No word on the cost though

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

So capacitive buckling springs HHKB layout?

I already have one. IBM made it in teh early 1980's Metal case too.

IBM did everything right, it seems.

[berserkfan]

Put capacitive buckling springs  in a Maltron, and it might be worth it to buy one.  )

Don't tell me about how that would ruin all of the ergonomics or whatnot. A man can dream.

This will be possible in the near future. No word on the cost though

Right. Thinking about a company or vendor to make something we want is thinking about it in the wrong way. This is Geekhack! We make stuff together. mkawa has a good thing in development with the SSK Revival project, although that seems to have stalled for a bit. With the development of replacement controllers for Model F keyboards, the possibility I'd brand new capacitive buckling spring designs is nearing a reality.

So capacitive buckling springs HHKB layout?

I already have one. IBM made it in teh early 1980's Metal case too.

IBM did everything right, it seems.

except be profitable. that's why they are out of the PC business

[Techno Trousers]

A Model F revival/rebirth would be a dream come true. There's nothing like typing on my ANSI modded F-122. It's so solid and the key action is so precise it's just an absolute joy to use.

The buckling spring patents are all long expired, so all that's really needed is the know how and capital investment to make it happen. Doing it as a small Geekhack project would be great for us, but I'd love for it to be a moneymaking venture, so some entrepreneur could bring the joy of typing on capacative buckling springs to the masses, and make some money at the same time.

[jacobolus]

Forgive my somewhat dissonant and probably not the most informed position on the latest mechanical state of afairs. I’m sure community like Geeckhack has explored a great depth of possibilities and discussion of the best and latest mechanical offer.

Sorry to wander off topic, but did you pass all of your comments through some kind of automatic thesaurus, or 21st-to-18th-century translator? The, erm, elevated diction seems a bit misplaced on a web forum.

[FPGA-88]

Regarding this comment it would be great if we could also develop a buckling spring numpad to complement the fervor for the SSK.  That would be the best of both worlds. The supply of full-size Model M's is much larger than the SSK, and Unicomp still produces the full size models in a variety of shapes and size, which is why you probably do not see the same enthusiasm for a community-driven revival of the full-size version.

Thank you for this explanation. Now I have better understanding of SSK’s appeal.

I have to admit it, keypad or no keypad, but this is just gorgeous  :

Sorry to wander off topic, but did you pass all of your comments through some kind of automatic thesaurus, or 21st-to-18th-century translator? The, erm, elevated diction seems a bit misplaced on a web forum.

Forgive me if my writing makes you feel different, that was not my intention. Debating on "elevation" on forum where creativity lurks in abundance is very strange way of Self-imposed limitation discipline. I would rather avoid the same, and not reduce others to my own mindset, as much I would like others to achieve the same manner while treating me and others.

[berserkfan]

Regarding this comment it would be great if we could also develop a buckling spring numpad to complement the fervor for the SSK.  That would be the best of both worlds. The supply of full-size Model M's is much larger than the SSK, and Unicomp still produces the full size models in a variety of shapes and size, which is why you probably do not see the same enthusiasm for a community-driven revival of the full-size version.

Thank you for this explanation. Now I have better understanding of SSK’s appeal.

I have to admit it, keypad or no keypad, but this is just gorgeous  :

Show Image

Sorry to wander off topic, but did you pass all of your comments through some kind of automatic thesaurus, or 21st-to-18th-century translator? The, erm, elevated diction seems a bit misplaced on a web forum.

Forgive me if my writing makes you feel different, that was not my intention. Debating on "elevation" on forum where creativity lurks in abundance is very strange way of Self-imposed limitation discipline. I would rather avoid the same, and not reduce others to my own mindset, as much I would like others to achieve the same manner while treating me and others.

I am very puzzled as to the writer's English. It's utterly un-American, or at least, un-99%. It also does not come across as any local English variant I have come across. The closest consonance I can think of is Ingrish, the Indian upper-caste version of British English. That has retained many colonial features, causing its users to sound 18th century.

[dorkvader]

I didn't even notice the writers "elevated diction" -it just reads like normal English to me, but my writing habits tend to be greatly influenced by what I am reading at the time.

Then again, I tend to "think" using more subtle language than what is commonly bandied about and this certainly comes out when I am tired. Sometimes It's hard to water things down.
---
Back on topic: that aluminium SSK you have a screenshot of is a proposed project on the deskthority forums that is in theory possible to create. In practise it will be exceedingly expensive and difficult to manufacture. But we can dream, right?

[jacobolus]

Sorry, I’m not trying to be critical, or debate anything. It’s fine to write using whatever level of formality and breadth of vocabulary you want, and it doesn’t bother me. It’s just (a) a much different “voice” or style than occurs in modern writing, especially in informal settings like the internet, and (b) many of the fancy words are used in ways which aren’t quite idiomatic in any English dialect I’ve ever heard/read, so as a result it feels very forced.

Anyhow, back on the subject, there’s very little potential (perceived) profit in making high-quality keyboards today as compared to 20 or 30 years ago, because typical computers have fallen so much in price (an IBM PS/2 in the late 80s costed like $6000+ in today’s dollars), and making a keyboard that costs as much as a full computer is something most consumers of computers (whether that’s individuals or company purchasing departments) don’t see as reasonable. [I also see interest among a small percentage of internet-savvy writers – bloggers, journalists, novelists, etc.]

There is some continuing interest in expensive keyboards by people who have repetitive stress injuries and are physically unable to type on typical keyboards. There has also been a bit of a resurgence of interest among video game players, but it tends to focus on fashionability as much as function. Finally, there is some interest in mechanical keyboards among software engineers who want to improve the efficiency of their tools [with I/O devices like keyboards and displays being a large part of that].

To get to the kind of numbers that IBM was producing, enough to justify new tooling and achieve the economies of scale to bring price down for such well-built hardware, you’d have to have interest from large corporate or government offices, or from a substantial portion of some group of professionals.

The folks who currently have tooling to make Model Ms (i.e. Unicomp) don’t have the resources to really expand operations beyond what they’re currently producing, and no one with the kind of technical expertise to develop new designs (like Apple, or Samsung, or Lenovo, etc.) are plenty happy to ship keyboards that are as cheap as possible to produce, and are thin and light and look nice on a desk.

[vivalarevolución]

Forgive my somewhat dissonant and probably not the most informed position on the latest mechanical state of afairs. I’m sure community like Geeckhack has explored a great depth of possibilities and discussion of the best and latest mechanical offer.

Sorry to wander off topic, but did you pass all of your comments through some kind of automatic thesaurus, or 21st-to-18th-century translator? The, erm, elevated diction seems a bit misplaced on a web forum.

I enjoy his command of the English language.  Keep it coming, buddy!

[E TwentyNine]

Regarding this comment it would be great if we could also develop a buckling spring numpad to complement the fervor for the SSK.  That would be the best of both worlds. The supply of full-size Model M's is much larger than the SSK, and Unicomp still produces the full size models in a variety of shapes and size, which is why you probably do not see the same enthusiasm for a community-driven revival of the full-size version.

Thank you for this explanation. Now I have better understanding of SSK’s appeal.

I have to admit it, keypad or no keypad, but this is just gorgeous  :

Show Image

Ha!  That's one of my color scheme requests he did in that thread. I like this one better:



But I would prefer to have the backspace key up top and the backslash underneath it.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It would be beneficial to Unicomp to create a small manufacturing assembly line for the "Capacitative Buckling Spring" switches and sell the switches to 3rd party KB makers along with themselves.

From my research, the "Capacitative Buckling Spring" switches are rated for ~100 million key presses

That's double the Cherry MX life rating, so it would be a real benefit to the consumer if they can get it going.

They could just make the Keycaps Cherry MX / Topre cap compatibile by using those hybrid Topre / Cherry MX stem system

Then it would be problem solved IMO.

[dorkvader]

It would be beneficial to Unicomp to create a small manufacturing assembly line for the "Capacitative Buckling Spring" switches and sell the switches to 3rd party KB makers along with themselves.

From my research, the "Capacitative Buckling Spring" switches are rated for ~100 million key presses

That's double the Cherry MX life rating, so it would be a real benefit to the consumer if they can get it going.

They could just make the Keycaps Cherry MX / Topre cap compatibile by using those hybrid Topre / Cherry MX stem system

Then it would be problem solved IMO.

I disagree

The capacitive switches would represent an entire change of manufacturing process for them and would include many millions of dollars worth of retooling and R&D. Making such a modular capacitive design has never been done before and would also include many years of R&D for them. This is all to get a relatively uncommon keyswitch to a very tiny market. They would never come close to recouping such losses, even if they had the initial capital.

Additionally, it's hard to estimate the reliability lifetime of the switch. It's non-contact so should last quite some time, however I have never seen any official number from IBM, nor any reliability study or survey.

Also: most consumers are unworried about lifetimes of their items. Only research, data entry, government, military are interested in that sort of thing, and they have other (cheaper) reliability systems in place. For example, I have a military rubberdome KB that I believe is rated for tens of millions of keypresses. It's also fully sealed, has a metal case, and would be cheaper and more reliable than a model F. It's likewise capacitive and features NKRO.

In other words, Even if unicomp were a reasonable company willing to try new things (they have thus far proven to be very conservative and unlikely to accept new business models or try anything new) they wouldn't make such a thing because it would not make any sort of sense.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It would be beneficial to Unicomp to create a small manufacturing assembly line for the "Capacitative Buckling Spring" switches and sell the switches to 3rd party KB makers along with themselves.

From my research, the "Capacitative Buckling Spring" switches are rated for ~100 million key presses

That's double the Cherry MX life rating, so it would be a real benefit to the consumer if they can get it going.

They could just make the Keycaps Cherry MX / Topre cap compatibile by using those hybrid Topre / Cherry MX stem system

Then it would be problem solved IMO.

I disagree

The capacitive switches would represent an entire change of manufacturing process for them and would include many millions of dollars worth of retooling and R&D. Making such a modular capacitive design has never been done before and would also include many years of R&D for them. This is all to get a relatively uncommon keyswitch to a very tiny market. They would never come close to recouping such losses, even if they had the initial capital.

Additionally, it's hard to estimate the reliability lifetime of the switch. It's non-contact so should last quite some time, however I have never seen any official number from IBM, nor any reliability study or survey.

Also: most consumers are unworried about lifetimes of their items. Only research, data entry, government, military are interested in that sort of thing, and they have other (cheaper) reliability systems in place. For example, I have a military rubberdome KB that I believe is rated for tens of millions of keypresses. It's also fully sealed, has a metal case, and would be cheaper and more reliable than a model F. It's likewise capacitive and features NKRO.

In other words, Even if unicomp were a reasonable company willing to try new things (they have thus far proven to be very conservative and unlikely to accept new business models or try anything new) they wouldn't make such a thing because it would not make any sort of sense.

Then maybe it's time another company who's willing to try to dethrone Cherry / Topre's dominance in the high durability market.

[dorkvader]

Then maybe it's time another company who's willing to try to dethrone Cherry / Topre's dominance in the high durability market.

Cherry and topre don't really have a dominance in the "high reliability" market. Topre does make some keypads (there's one used in a japanese ATM I believe, not to mention all the video editing stuff that's out there) and cherry has a small presence. There's lots of companies, from "regular" rubberdome manufacturers that have higher-than-standard reliability to exotic hall effect types. Most aren't too great to type on, and don't appeal to many of us here.

Part of the reason for this is to shield it from dust, sand, water, etc. The TG3 BL82 (TG3 is a company that makes devices for this market, as well as industrial and automation. I have seen a ton of TG3-made lathe and CNC control panels, though fujitsu has a lot too) has a "blood spatter guerd". It's why my military KB is rubberdome. They are very effective at remaining sealed, much more so than a standard mechanical.

Past this there are RAFI hall switches which are used in industrial/automation and possibly in high reliability / data entry fiends though they aren't too common in the places I look.

One of the larger players is, of course, Cortron. They have mainly (only?) rubber dome keyboards now, but in the past their hall stuff has been used in the Gilbarco control keyboards. Now their domes have impressive reliability specifications and are used in lots of high reliability / harsh environments.

In the past, keytronic reed switches (other brands too) were quite common. The switching mechanism itself is enclosed in a vacuum and protected by glass. They are impervious to water, most liquids, dust and sand. Their reliability should be much greater than cherry's (or most contact switches) due to the tightly constrained atmosphere in the switch.

---
The issue is that most places where high reliability is a deciding factor, many mechanical keyswitches will fail quickly. It's only in medical and some other places that longevity is a factor and reliability (dust, water, etc.) is not an issue. These Markets are rather small, and the enthusiast market is similar. This is especially true after the POS market has primarily moved to domes.

In the medical market, cherry MX stuff is much more common, and you also see ML a lot.

So if you have some research indicating that cherry / topre are "dominating" any market other than the enthusiast / gaming market (that's us) and the luxury / data entry market, please share it.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Then maybe it's time another company who's willing to try to dethrone Cherry / Topre's dominance in the high durability market.

Cherry and topre don't really have a dominance in the "high reliability" market. Topre does make some keypads (there's one used in a japanese ATM I believe, not to mention all the video editing stuff that's out there) and cherry has a small presence. There's lots of companies, from "regular" rubberdome manufacturers that have higher-than-standard reliability to exotic hall effect types. Most aren't too great to type on, and don't appeal to many of us here.

Part of the reason for this is to shield it from dust, sand, water, etc. The TG3 BL82 (TG3 is a company that makes devices for this market, as well as industrial and automation. I have seen a ton of TG3-made lathe and CNC control panels, though fujitsu has a lot too) has a "blood spatter guerd". It's why my military KB is rubberdome. They are very effective at remaining sealed, much more so than a standard mechanical.

Past this there are RAFI hall switches which are used in industrial/automation and possibly in high reliability / data entry fiends though they aren't too common in the places I look.

One of the larger players is, of course, Cortron. They have mainly (only?) rubber dome keyboards now, but in the past their hall stuff has been used in the Gilbarco control keyboards. Now their domes have impressive reliability specifications and are used in lots of high reliability / harsh environments.

In the past, keytronic reed switches (other brands too) were quite common. The switching mechanism itself is enclosed in a vacuum and protected by glass. They are impervious to water, most liquids, dust and sand. Their reliability should be much greater than cherry's (or most contact switches) due to the tightly constrained atmosphere in the switch.

---
The issue is that most places where high reliability is a deciding factor, many mechanical keyswitches will fail quickly. It's only in medical and some other places that longevity is a factor and reliability (dust, water, etc.) is not an issue. These Markets are rather small, and the enthusiast market is similar. This is especially true after the POS market has primarily moved to domes.

In the medical market, cherry MX stuff is much more common, and you also see ML a lot.

So if you have some research indicating that cherry / topre are "dominating" any market other than the enthusiast / gaming market (that's us) and the luxury / data entry market, please share it.

Fair enough, but is there one design that has all those features, durability, reliability, sealed design, that can satisfy every market and still become a mass market keyboard?

[fohat.digs]

Fair enough, but is there one design that has all those features, durability, reliability, sealed design, that can satisfy every market and still become a mass market keyboard?

The answer to this is clearly "no"

Does anybody reasonably expect a keyboard to last them more than a few years? Seriously? Why do we have keyboard collections if not to rotate through them. Think what goes into the purchase of a car that you keep for 2-10 years, no matter how good it is.

I am over 60 and have what I am typing on plus 2 backup Model Fs and 2 Model Ms, so will I live long enough to wear them out? I doubt it!

The only question that matters in the real world is: "Can we build something that we can sell for a price that will yield us a profit?"

Unicomp can sell true Model Ms for well under $100 because they have a factory full of operational equipment right now.

Otherwise, the aftermarket proves that the demand is not up to parity with the supply. Fresh new Model F IBM keyboards sold for approximately 300 Ronald Reagan dollars. What is that today, triple? Until prices climb to that level, nobody is going to make them new.

Just my opinion.

[dorkvader]

I have evidence that an "unsaver" model F cost $225 back in 1986. According to an online inflation calculator, that is about $480 nowadays.

Another source (from 1983) lists the KB at $500 ! (that's $1200 in today's money.)

[Pacifist]

I have evidence that an "unsaver" model F cost $225 back in 1986. According to an online inflation calculator, that is about $480 nowadays.

Another source (from 1983) lists the KB at $500 ! (that's $1200 in today's money.)

What about the SSK? Do the current prices reflect the price for them when they were for sale?

[JimByr]

What about the SSK? Do the current prices reflect the price for them when they were for sale?

It varies. Many of the current sales are above the original prices as adjusted for inflation.

I bought the SSK that I'm currently using NIB for about $35 a long, long time ago. 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Fair enough, but is there one design that has all those features, durability, reliability, sealed design, that can satisfy every market and still become a mass market keyboard?

The answer to this is clearly "no"

Does anybody reasonably expect a keyboard to last them more than a few years? Seriously? Why do we have keyboard collections if not to rotate through them. Think what goes into the purchase of a car that you keep for 2-10 years, no matter how good it is.

I am over 60 and have what I am typing on plus 2 backup Model Fs and 2 Model Ms, so will I live long enough to wear them out? I doubt it!

The only question that matters in the real world is: "Can we build something that we can sell for a price that will yield us a profit?"

Unicomp can sell true Model Ms for well under $100 because they have a factory full of operational equipment right now.

Otherwise, the aftermarket proves that the demand is not up to parity with the supply. Fresh new Model F IBM keyboards sold for approximately 300 Ronald Reagan dollars. What is that today, triple? Until prices climb to that level, nobody is going to make them new.

Just my opinion.

I hope you live to 120+ and get to wear out your Model M / F keyboard's =D