what Blue MX keyboard has the widest alpha keypad?

[incandescentman]

I'm in the market for a Blue MX keyboard. I have the Kinesis, but it's not ideal for editing work. For that I've been using my Microsoft 4000, which would be perfect if only it had Blue switches, but unfortunately it's not even mechanical.

A couple hours ago I went by Canada Computers (in Ottawa) and picked up a Cooler Master QuickFire TK to try it out. (I can easily return it for a 5% restocking fee.) The switches feel amazing and the backlighting is cool, but I'm noticing that my hands feel cramped—like hunched together. I realized the actual alphabetical keypad is pretty small, i.e. the distance from A to L is small, not much bigger than the onboard keypad on my MacBook.

I know I'm spoiled coming from a split ergo keyboard like the Microsoft 4000, but is there a Blue MX keyboard with an alphabetical keypad that's at least wider, even if it's not actually split?

What are the widest, most ergonomic-ish Blue MX keyboards out there? Not wide because they have a numkey pad, but wide because the alphabetical keypad itself is wider / more ergonomic?

[Rewind]

Ergo dox?

[dorkvader]

I'm in the market for a Blue MX keyboard. I have the Kinesis, but it's not ideal for editing work. For that I've been using my Microsoft 4000, which would be perfect if only it had Blue switches, but unfortunately it's not even mechanical.

A couple hours ago I went by Canada Computers (in Ottawa) and picked up a Cooler Master QuickFire TK to try it out. (I can easily return it for a 5% restocking fee.) The switches feel amazing and the backlighting is cool, but I'm noticing that my hands feel cramped—like hunched together. I realized the actual alphabetical keypad is pretty small, i.e. the distance from A to L is small, not much bigger than the onboard keypad on my MacBook.

I know I'm spoiled coming from a split ergo keyboard like the Microsoft 4000, but is there a Blue MX keyboard with an alphabetical keypad that's at least wider, even if it's not actually split?

What are the widest, most ergonomic-ish Blue MX keyboards out there? Not wide because they have a numkey pad, but wide because the alphabetical keypad itself is wider / more ergonomic?

The keyspacing of the QF TK is the same as for your macbook. Keys are 0.75 inches apart. It's pretty natural to feel like that coming from a split or ergonomic KB. At least one GH'er, Lanx, has converted his MS ergo 4k into a mechaincal keyboard.

Of course, as has been said, a great option is to get an ergodox.

[QuadGMoto]

I just switched to the Truly Ergonomic sporting MX blues from the MS 4000. IMHO, it's definitely better than using a simple flat keyboard. But there are two key drawbacks.

1) The layout is more ergonomic, which means different, which means learning curve. I've been at it for about a week. My typing speed is just about back to normal for the primary alphabet. But the other keys are still messing with me. (I had started to say that at least I don't accidentally close windows anymore. But this is my second crack at this comment, because I accidentally closed the window.  )

2) Tech Support. As in, "Wait, they have tech support?" I had sent a question about layout customization weeks ago. I still haven't received an answer.

Ultimately, though, what I'm really waiting for is AcidFire's Nexus project (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0) to come to fruition. The TECK is really just to tide me over until that's ready. (My hands have been getting that bad.)

[incandescentman]

Thanks for the responses.

ErgoDox: How available are these exactly? I've been on the "Requested" list on MassDrop list for several months with no developments, unless I missed a notification.

Turning a Microsoft 4000 blue: I love this idea too. How feasible is this given that I have no skills myself? Are there people around who who put blue switches into my Microsoft Ergonomic, and how much would such a thing cost?

[incandescentman]

Also: Are there non-ergo Blue MX keyboards that have even slightly wider key spacing? Or is 0.75 universal, aside from the ergo models?

[Findecanor]

Turning a Microsoft 4000 blue: I love this idea too. How feasible is this given that I have no skills myself?

Not feasible. It would be basically like building a new keyboard from scratch.

I had started designing a kit for mech-modding existing ergo keyboards, but it was a huge amount of work and quite difficult with too little reward so I put that project to rest.
The MS 4000 is a bit more difficult than other tented keyboards (like the earlier MS ergo keyboards) because not only are the alphanumeric keys split into two halves, each half is also split into two parts. The keys sizes are also not always perfectly 3/4" square, or an even number of 3/16" wide.
... and even if there was a kit, it would have required quite a lot of work for the modder as well.

[jacobolus]

Also: Are there non-ergo Blue MX keyboards that have even slightly wider key spacing? Or is 0.75 universal, aside from the ergo models?

0.75" key pitch (19.05 mm) is almost universal. Some laptop keyboards have narrower keys, as well as some obscure Japanese keyboards. Apple chiclet keyboards have slightly tighter spacing front-to-back. Most everything else is .75" * .75".

Something that’s maybe more useful than wider key spacing is a bit of space in between the right and left hands. On a programmable keyboard, this is achievable by just shifting all the keycaps on the right hand to the right by one key, and rotating the ], ', and / keycaps (or similar) to the new gap in the middle. Then in your programmable firmware, you can account for the new key positions and assign those middle keys to do whatever useful thing you want.

I have the Kinesis, but it's not ideal for editing work.

Which aspect of it, specifically, do you find suboptimal. Is it just the keyswitches, and you’d rather have blue ones? Or you want to have a more standard layout? Or is it not portable enough? Etc.

If you’re already used to the matrixy layout of the Kinesis, then the “Truly Ergonomic” or the Ergodox might match your needs, depending on what your criteria are.

[daerid]

Thanks for the responses.

ErgoDox: How available are these exactly? I've been on the "Requested" list on MassDrop list for several months with no developments, unless I missed a notification.

You must have missed something, as MassDrop has done 2 ErgoDox drops since November. You might try perusing the classifieds as well, occasionally one will pop up in there.

[aref]

I checked the spacing on my 87U and CMQFR: key spacing on both KBs is 0.75".

[incandescentman]

Thanks for the responses! Great to have a community of people who know about this stuff!

Findecanor: About turning a Microsoft 4000 blue. Agreed, this is not feasible for me. But how hard would it be to find an enthusiast who could do it for me? It would be amazing to get someone to put Blue MX switches in my Microsoft 4000, add backlighting, etc. But only if I could find someone to do it for a reasonable price.

jacobolus: Agreed that the important thing is the space between the hands, not the space between the fingers on each hand.

To answer your question about what's suboptimal about the Kinesis. The problem is this: I have a workflow I'm used to that involves holding down OPTION or OPTION-SHIFT with my left hand, and using the arrow keys with my right hand to cruise through paragraphs at lightspeed while I'm editing prose, occasionally hitting OPTION-BACKSPACE to delete an entire word.

I know I can replicate this functionality with Emacs key bindings, but it's such a fundamental part of my workflow that I'm hesitant to let go of it.

SHIFT and OPTION with the left hand, arrow keys and BACKSPACE with the right hand. I haven't been able to find a way to do this quickly on the Kinesis: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55585.0

Any thoughts?

daerid: Thanks for the info about the ErgoDox. Question: how portable is it? I can walk to the coffee shop with my laptop in my bag and my Kinesis under my arm. Could I do this with the ErgoDox?

Thanks everyone!

[jacobolus]

jacobolus: Agreed that the important thing is the space between the hands, not the space between the fingers on each hand.

To answer your question about what's suboptimal about the Kinesis. The problem is this: I have a workflow I'm used to that involves holding down OPTION or OPTION-SHIFT with my left hand, and using the arrow keys with my right hand to cruise through paragraphs at lightspeed while I'm editing prose, occasionally hitting OPTION-BACKSPACE to delete an entire word.

I know I can replicate this functionality with Emacs key bindings, but it's such a fundamental part of my workflow that I'm hesitant to let go of it.

SHIFT and OPTION with the left hand, arrow keys and BACKSPACE with the right hand. I haven't been able to find a way to do this quickly on the Kinesis: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55585.0

Any thoughts?

I’m in the process of making my own prototype ergonomic keyboard, and I still haven’t gotten the build finished, much less written the firmware yet, but my plan for basic navigation is:

* Something like the equivalent of thumb modifier key + (qwerty) ijkl for navigation arrows, and nearby keys for option+arrows, cmd+arrows, pgup/pgdn, etc.

* thumb modifier + qwerty f key (or some key on the left hand) + ijkl &c. for "shifted" navigation, for changing the selection

* thumb modifier + qwerty g key + ijkl &c. for scrolling by 1 pixel or 10 pixels or a screenful, etc. at a time (not exactly sure what USB HIG packets to send for this; it's going to take some research and experimentation).

* thumb modifier + qwerty d key (or similar) + ijkl &c. for shortcuts to do prev/next tab, prev/next window, prev/next application, etc.

* different thumb modifier + ijkl &c. for backward delete, forward delete, delete a word, delete a line, etc.

* different thumb modifier + (qwerty) uiojklm,. etc. for a numpad and common mathematical operators.

Eventually I'd like to add a trackball or jog wheel or scroll wheel or similar which can be used to repeat a pair of commands repeatedly by spinning it one way or the other (e.g. movement, scrolling, deleting, undo/redo, etc.)

Anyhow, I don't know how easy it is to get access to the Kinesis controller / substitute your own programmable controller in, and then add various fancy features. But it seems like it should be at least *possible* to do some nifty stuff, with some effort and creativity. I bet you could make it work better for your own personal workflow than anything any other person/company can come up with. [But might not be worth the trouble for you to spend so much time on customizing stuff. ]

[jacobolus]

By the way, if you only care about inside emacs, you can definitely hack together whatever kind of behavior you want by customizing emacs keybindings to do it. Emacs gives you a full programming language to create your own new commands which have full access to anything emacs can do.

Or if hacking on emacs modes is too steep a learning curve, I recommend the TextMate editor, which is very easy to start customizing.