Author Topic: Weird key registering after water spill.  (Read 5366 times)

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Offline MigZm

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Weird key registering after water spill.
« on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 22:12:12 »
Hey guys,

I've been mainly a lurker around here, reading about several sweet projects and everything else.
But today I need some help.  :(

I spilt water on my razer blackwidow. I know, razer is **** and blabla, but it was my first mechanical kb and my only with blues, which I miss using sometimes.
Thing is, it wasn't that much  water... I turned it upside down, shook it and left to college. Once I got back I realized some of the keys weren't registering and if I spammed them, things like this would happen:


(D key)

They kept being registered until I pressed some other key.

I took it apart and saw it wasn't moist or anything, but left it open for 15 hours or so in hope it would magically start working again, no luck though.
I also tried downloading the pre-synapse firmware updater but it doenst recognize the keyboard, even though synapse would reconize it just fine.

Any ideas on how to bring it back from the dead?

If nothing else works I think I will have to find a way to reuse these blues.  :confused:

Offline mougrim

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 03:33:16 »
Perhaps some switches are fukked themselves. I'd disassemble "problem" switches and see if there still water inside. You can do it.
IBM AT Model F, Vortexgear Race 3, AEKII (Alps Cream Damped), Metoo Zero (modded to Kailh Box Navy)

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 12:24:48 »
Space Invaders > cherry then. I knocked over a full cup of hot coffee directly into my space invaders - it started off sending all kinds of signals at that point, of course. Then I opened the casing and ran hot water across everything, on the key caps, back of the pcb and inside both halves of the case. Then I just let it dry and it was fine, the only difference was that it was now very free of all dust. Not sure if that approach would be a good idea or not on that one.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 12:58:29 »
This doesn't sound like the switches are broken, more like the controller is fried - this is not really repairable. You can reuse the blues by desoldering them. Since the board is probably already broken, you can't do much wrong and you could see it as practice...

Space Invaders > cherry then. I knocked over a full cup of hot coffee directly into my space invaders - it started off sending all kinds of signals at that point, of course. Then I opened the casing and ran hot water across everything, on the key caps, back of the pcb and inside both halves of the case. Then I just let it dry and it was fine, the only difference was that it was now very free of all dust. Not sure if that approach would be a good idea or not on that one.

Running water across everything is not a good idea, alcohol is always a better solution. Water speeds up corrosion and can cause more damage than you already have.

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 13:33:56 »
Are you talking about rust? Because other than the plate, which is painted, the pcb should have no pure iron. Not sure what else would use water in such a process. Once it was dry everything looked and works perfect.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 15:26:55 »
Hey guys,

I've been mainly a lurker around here, reading about several sweet projects and everything else.
But today I need some help.  :(

I spilt water on my razer blackwidow. I know, razer is **** and blabla, but it was my first mechanical kb and my only with blues, which I miss using sometimes.
Thing is, it wasn't that much  water... I turned it upside down, shook it and left to college. Once I got back I realized some of the keys weren't registering and if I spammed them, things like this would happen:

Show Image

(D key)

They kept being registered until I pressed some other key.

I took it apart and saw it wasn't moist or anything, but left it open for 15 hours or so in hope it would magically start working again, no luck though.
I also tried downloading the pre-synapse firmware updater but it doenst recognize the keyboard, even though synapse would reconize it just fine.

Any ideas on how to bring it back from the dead?

If nothing else works I think I will have to find a way to reuse these blues.  :confused:

It is just water, right? Not water + some non-water substance that doesn't evaporate?

The thing would be to dry the keyboard completely. Once all water is gone and there is no residue you should not have anything causing an electrical short.

Problem with spilling water is that if it gets into the switches, it pools there and is hard to get out.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 16:12:44 »
Are you talking about rust? Because other than the plate, which is painted, the pcb should have no pure iron. Not sure what else would use water in such a process. Once it was dry everything looked and works perfect.

No I'm talking about corrosion (I think "rust" only refers to iron, but yeah basically rust) on the switch springs and contact leaf springs.

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 18:11:10 »
Well, tap water does have non-water things in there, but it generally doesn't matter that much. If it was flavoured water though, you may have issues with sugar.

I can't think of any other relevant kinds of corrosion relevant to a keyboard, with just water as a factor. Maybe some other type could happen if instead of water I poured in sulfuric acid or something. You are generally correct that rust, as a technical term, relates only to iron, but people use it anyway with other stuff.

Keep in mind the layout of space invaders, I'm not sure what I did would even get into the switches to begin with, and even if it did, the only thing that would be hit by the water is possibly the spring, and the very bottom of the contacts - not even the part that actually makes contact. I know from the color that the contacts are not iron, and it would be really weird if the springs were iron and not some alloy. Alloys are generally resistant, and running hot water to remove all coffee related chemicals by dissolving them for not even a minute would never cause lasting damage, nor cause it to magically begin to degrade at a faster rate than the gas in the atmosphere where it is already was.

That said, cherry switches could be less waterproof. Although I'd be more inclined to believe that the modern controller in his case got hit. Besides, it's broken now, it can't get worse than broken.

Check links for direct examples/testing, rather than what I'm asserting based on my knowledge of chemistry.
http://imgur.com/a/9sHx7
http://imgur.com/a/cExIc
Keep in mind that the rust testing is with continual and complete exposure to the elements, which includes things like fog, misting, and various dry/wet phases, along with whatever substances that the water from the weather would contain.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 18:19:55 »
Please check this post: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55708.msg1254187#msg1254187
Sure, that is an extreme example, but still...

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 01:47:40 »
That type of corrosion shouldn't leave it not working, and it is indeed an extreme example. That type of "rusting" ends with the visible surface layer, and actually ends up as a protective layer so it won't go any deeper, unlike real rust which just continues until there is no metal left.

I can't speak to anything at the end of the post about solder, because all I know about that is that unleaded solder is garbage. Though from the pics it looks like the desoldered switches themselves were what were underwater, which makes it irrelevant to the OP's situation because they are still all attached to the PCB.

When the alternative, is 'time to buy a new keyboard' there's really nothing left on the line to lose. Especially since the sort of damage you're trying to prevent is already there. That said, if he can afford 100% alcohol bath, it probably would be safer - depending on if it's denatured (read: poisoned) and what that stuff is. You may not have to deal with denatured alcohol, because it's really just an american tax thing. I'm just saying two things, one that space invaders are less caring about that due to layout and therefore better, and also that the possible threat of damage almost doesn't matter at all.

He could also try using that contact cleaner that was in the cleaning guide, it really just depends on if it was normal drinking water or if there was stuff in it, and if it's the switches or the controller that was to blame. In my case it was an old, 80's probably, controller which got hit and that only speaks to durability of those.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 03:57:45 »
Thanks for the response guys.

I will try desoldering the problematic switches and swap with working ones, but I will need to wait until monday to get a desoldering pump. If it works, I will try isopropyl alcohol to clean the contacts, otherwise, time for a new board. Any other possible solution? Full isopropyl alcohol bath maybe?

Having the worst in mind, anyone recommend any 87% board (preferably with the diodes already soldered) which I could reuse blackwidow leds, switches and keycaps? I'd love breathing and reactive mode, and maybe a metal case, but heck, I just wanna be able use those again.
I'd need a PCB, plate, controller and a case only, is that right?

Welp, if it comes to it, for someone who never even soldered anything, it should be an interesting experiment.
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 March 2014, 04:11:18 by MigZm »

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 07:17:57 »
Go for a Ducky.

And considering the name it is probably more resilient to water...
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 07:36:31 »
Go for a Ducky.

And considering the name it is probably more resilient to water...

Dem puns.

I do own a DK9087 Shine 2 with blacks which I don't really enjoy using... I was thinking about swapping them with the blues. But then I'd be willing to find a board for the blacks, just for... you know... having one and not wasting the switches. lol

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 07:53:02 »
As I've said earlier, looking at the amount of switches that fail (and the way they stay actuated), it looks like the controller is dead. That would mean that cleaning the board or replacing switches wouldn't help. Of course I can't be certain, so replace a few and see if that helps.

If it doesn't help, I wouldn't recommend soldering a whole board as your very first soldering project. Train soldering and desoldering on your BW first before you move on to a custom PCB.

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 08:03:14 »
As I've said earlier, looking at the amount of switches that fail (and the way they stay actuated), it looks like the controller is dead. That would mean that cleaning the board or replacing switches wouldn't help. Of course I can't be certain, so replace a few and see if that helps.

If it doesn't help, I wouldn't recommend soldering a whole board as your very first soldering project. Train soldering and desoldering on your BW first before you move on to a custom PCB.

That's the plan. I'm just looking ahead to search for the best one for me.
And because I know it will take a ****load of time to to arrive here in Brazil.

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 08:17:52 »
Oh OK yeah I've heard some bad things about the Brazilian postal system...
If you want backlighting you probably want some sort of Korean custom, the phantom doesn't offer backlighting.

Offline slyphnier

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 08:37:14 »
Thanks for the response guys.

I will try desoldering the problematic switches and swap with working ones, but I will need to wait until monday to get a desoldering pump. If it works, I will try isopropyl alcohol to clean the contacts, otherwise, time for a new board. Any other possible solution? Full isopropyl alcohol bath maybe?

Having the worst in mind, anyone recommend any 87% board (preferably with the diodes already soldered) which I could reuse blackwidow leds, switches and keycaps? I'd love breathing and reactive mode, and maybe a metal case, but heck, I just wanna be able use those again.
I'd need a PCB, plate, controller and a case only, is that right?

Welp, if it comes to it, for someone who never even soldered anything, it should be an interesting experiment.

if u think isopropyl bath, why dont try contact cleaner?
its basically same, except isopropyl if not 99% have water in it that might not good, thus imo better try contact cleaner
try deoxit (save for plastic version) if you can find it
or you can use standard contact cleaner, it will do same thing, except some contact cleaner might/can damage plastic material
well just small amount wont damage the switch i think

i use philips contact cleaner (that said can damage plastic) for fixing mouse double click many times, and didnt have problem with plastic on the switch
spray it on effected switch, press switch few times to let liquid get into it
and test it if it fix it or not

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 09:11:16 »
Oh OK yeah I've heard some bad things about the Brazilian postal system...
If you want backlighting you probably want some sort of Korean custom, the phantom doesn't offer backlighting.

Multiply what you heard by 10, lol.

Like LZ's or KMAC's, you mean?
I read about Sprit's model 1 as well.

I considered getting a KMAC because it was the only one I found for prompt sale but I admit I'd love a sky blue case and would hate to solder every single diode.
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 March 2014, 19:44:41 by MigZm »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 09:12:17 »
Oh OK yeah I've heard some bad things about the Brazilian postal system...
If you want backlighting you probably want some sort of Korean custom, the phantom doesn't offer backlighting.

Multiply what you heard by 10, lol.

Like LZ's ou KMAC's, you mean?
I read about Sprit's model 1 as well.

I considered getting a KMAC because it was the only one I found for prompt sale but I admit I'd love a sky blue case and would hate to solder every single diode.

I would NOT buy from originative, there won't be anything prompt about that sell other than you filing a chargeback.

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 15 March 2014, 11:26:50 »
Like LZ's ou KMAC's, you mean?
I read about Sprit's model 1 as well.

I considered getting a KMAC because it was the only one I found for prompt sale but I admit I'd love a sky blue case and would hate to solder every single diode.

Exactly, those would be some options. They're expensive though, but if you don't mind the price they're great boards. You probably can't really get around soldering the diodes, but Sprit offers assembly service, maybe you can ask him to just do that.

I would not recommend buying from Originative right now too, as Sherryton has gone MIA.

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 16 March 2014, 12:08:33 »
Thanks for the response guys.

I will try desoldering the problematic switches and swap with working ones, but I will need to wait until monday to get a desoldering pump. If it works, I will try isopropyl alcohol to clean the contacts, otherwise, time for a new board. Any other possible solution? Full isopropyl alcohol bath maybe?

Having the worst in mind, anyone recommend any 87% board (preferably with the diodes already soldered) which I could reuse blackwidow leds, switches and keycaps? I'd love breathing and reactive mode, and maybe a metal case, but heck, I just wanna be able use those again.
I'd need a PCB, plate, controller and a case only, is that right?

Welp, if it comes to it, for someone who never even soldered anything, it should be an interesting experiment.

if u think isopropyl bath, why dont try contact cleaner?
its basically same, except isopropyl if not 99% have water in it that might not good, thus imo better try contact cleaner
try deoxit (save for plastic version) if you can find it
or you can use standard contact cleaner, it will do same thing, except some contact cleaner might/can damage plastic material
well just small amount wont damage the switch i think

i use philips contact cleaner (that said can damage plastic) for fixing mouse double click many times, and didnt have problem with plastic on the switch
spray it on effected switch, press switch few times to let liquid get into it
and test it if it fix it or not

I'm not sure of how easy it is to find contact cleaner around here, that's why I went with the isopropyl option. I could try finding it tho.

I really don't have much hope, so yeah, anything is an option.

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 16 March 2014, 13:12:00 »
Oh OK yeah I've heard some bad things about the Brazilian postal system...
If you want backlighting you probably want some sort of Korean custom, the phantom doesn't offer backlighting.

Multiply what you heard by 10, lol.

Like LZ's ou KMAC's, you mean?
I read about Sprit's model 1 as well.

I considered getting a KMAC because it was the only one I found for prompt sale but I admit I'd love a sky blue case and would hate to solder every single diode.

I would NOT buy from originative, there won't be anything prompt about that sell other than you filing a chargeback.

Welp, that's bad news... at least I got to know prior to buying.



Like LZ's ou KMAC's, you mean?
I read about Sprit's model 1 as well.

I considered getting a KMAC because it was the only one I found for prompt sale but I admit I'd love a sky blue case and would hate to solder every single diode.

Exactly, those would be some options. They're expensive though, but if you don't mind the price they're great boards. You probably can't really get around soldering the diodes, but Sprit offers assembly service, maybe you can ask him to just do that.

I would not recommend buying from Originative right now too, as Sherryton has gone MIA.

Yeah, they are hella expensive. Are there any other cheaper backlit options?

I will also keep a look for some good deals at the classifieds and group buys.

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 16 March 2014, 13:18:26 »
Yeah, they are hella expensive. Are there any other cheaper backlit options?
I will also keep a look for some good deals at the classifieds and group buys.

Not really. I mean if you found a Ducky PCB for example that would be an option but I don't think I have ever seen one seperately for sale.

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 16 March 2014, 16:34:45 »
He could just use the one he has to put the blues in, but that would be an extreme amount of effort, especially to move the LED's to the other switches, as I'm figuring that would be required.

Try the straw thing to put a little alcohol in one of the switches that are doing that and then cycle it alot - just to see if it behaves differently before removing everything in any case to see if you can discover exactly where the fault lies.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline MigZm

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 17:30:17 »
Welp, bad news.

I dessoldered several switches and tried them at the faulty keys to no luck
I also discovered I hate dessoldering... got some one-legged leds thanks to my patience and at the end I was almost throwing everything out the window.

So yeah, I think I will stick to preassembled keyboards and minor mods for the time being.

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 19:07:11 »
So as I suspected a fried controller... Faulty switches would not cause this behaviour if they seem to be physically intact.

Offline mougrim

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Re: Weird key registering after water spill.
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 03:08:00 »
Seems so... you can either try to look up a new controller - try Chinese sites - or sell all switches separately and buy a new keyboard.
IBM AT Model F, Vortexgear Race 3, AEKII (Alps Cream Damped), Metoo Zero (modded to Kailh Box Navy)