Author Topic: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.  (Read 683507 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline zhd

  • Posts: 10
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #100 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 17:29:48 »
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

Offline TotalChaos

  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Indy Game Coder
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #101 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:07:44 »
On a more personal note, the trade off for me lies between durability vs money. I am very well willing to pay $$$ for something that will last me a decade. Makes me feel relaxed, not having to worry about buying new stuff.
+1!
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline dmbr

  • Posts: 169
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #102 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:21:39 »
But according to the OP, the Aviar has noticeable smoothing and jitter, while the Military does not...

Offline dmbr

  • Posts: 169
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #103 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:25:05 »
By the way, I have tried a ridiculous number of pads (30+); the best:

Logitech's. Both the hard and soft. Cheap, too!
And the Func 1030.

Hands down.

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #104 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:58:08 »
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

one thing worth noting though is that malfunction speed could be very low on the glass mats. I forgot to tell you about that :o
on my Icemat V2, I had a few problems with the Zowie FK for example. but it may not be an issue for high sensitivity. might affect jitter and such though.

I found a very cheap shipping option for the Slamepad here, in black (best for tracking, it seems? have had no problems with my red one though :p) http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMMS01-ModMyMachine-SlamePad-Aluminium-Gaming-Surface-Black-Angel-/121396733734?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item1c43cf2726

if you could afford that, maybe a better option? I can not find any problems with pure sensor tracking performance on mine!

On the subject of mousepads. This is something that I plan to include more of in the guide (though I need to learn more about them, and if possible I would like to get some more testing results). Which mousepad is best/good/ worth the price really depends on what you are looking for and what your individual preferences are. However, the number one thing is that your sensor has to track well on the mousepad. The tracking performance of any sensor is really dependent on the surface and for any type sensor that you can find, you can also find surfaces on which the performance of tracking is greatly reduced. The most obvious way in which the sensor is affected is the speed with which you can move the mouse without it stopping its tracking. Companies actually test their mice on different surfaces to see whether its performance is what they are looking for. The thing they put on the box ( "40g acceleration" ) are often best case scenarios that are not matched when using a normal mousepad.

For the optical mice that we see on this list, you would be surprised what kind of surface works best from a performance standpoint. There are a number of sources where the people who work at these companies state what kind of surface is best for performance according to their testing. They all respond that a black (dark) hard surface with a little structure (not perfectly smooth) generally works best. François Morier, who is a logitech engineer that has some videos on youtube even goes into more detail, saying that the pattern (irregular or not) does not really matter and that performance deteriorates when the surface is too rough. There are also some other things to take into account, such as how color can affect lift of distance and so on, and not every optical sensor will perform best on the same surface.

So why don't we all play on hard structured plastic? Basically, for the same reason that we do not all use the same mouse with the "theoretically" best sensor: We are human. We look for things that we find comfortable. Something that resonates with us because if feels right when we use it. There are a lot of surfaces that still give us a good enough performance while also managing to feel good. This is why cloth pads are still the most common pads we come across, whether it is at home or in the pro circuit. People look for mousepads of a certain size, that gives them a certain level or resistance and smoothness of glide when using the mouse on it. All of these things are subjective and up to the individual.

One thing people often ask is whether it is worth it to pay for very expensive mousepads over some of the cheaper options. I am undecided on the issue. When it comes to performance, it is not true that buying a 50 dollar mousepad will always outperform something like a Qck heavy. As of yet, I have seen nothing in terms of testing where I can objectively state that performance-wise, you should be spending that amount of money on a mousepad. This does not mean that there are never any differences, just that on the few tests that I have seen, there seems to be no relation between performance and price. Additionally, in terms of durability it is also not necessarily the case that the more expensive mousepads outperform the more reasonably priced ones. We know this because of the known durability issues on some of the expensive pads, and the known durability of some of the cheaper ones. So why should anyone ever buy a more expensive mousepad? I think that if they do it to gain some sort of advantage in terms of performance it might be a bit of a waste. However, it could be the case that there is a specific surface that people just really like, and they are willing to spend some extra money just for that reason. After all, there are some mousepads out there that have their own unique feel (Something like an Icepad).  At the same time, it is also true that the more "special/unique" surfaces are also the ones most likely to cause tracking issues, as they deviate more from the simple structured surface that many sensors favor. Additionally, and this is just from personal experience, I find that some of the more expensive "premium" mousepads can at times feel pretty much exactly like their much cheaper alternatives.

about this; when I speak of performance, I speak only about a pads physical aspects. not even sure performance is the right word. but speed/micro-movement control/initial motion ease/stopping ease etc.
usually, I have no problems with pads and tracking. very few have been terribly bad. of course some better than others, but the difference is 90% very small. it's always for me about finding one that *feels* good, glide-wise and whatnot.

Offline MaximilianKohler

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Arizona
  • test
    • My youtube channel
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #105 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 20:41:35 »
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.
A perfectly extreme waste of money.

I agree. On a more personal note, the trade off for me lies between durability vs money. I am very well willing to pay $$$ for something that will last me a decade. Makes me feel relaxed, not having to worry about buying new stuff.
It's not true that the more you pay for something the more durable it is though.

My $8 supermat is in like-new condition after every time I put it in the wash and I've had it for ~5 years. It'll easily last a decade.
High level, competitive CS 1.6 player

My reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd

Offline zhd

  • Posts: 10
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #106 on: Sun, 03 August 2014, 21:55:48 »
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

one thing worth noting though is that malfunction speed could be very low on the glass mats. I forgot to tell you about that :o
on my Icemat V2, I had a few problems with the Zowie FK for example. but it may not be an issue for high sensitivity. might affect jitter and such though.

I found a very cheap shipping option for the Slamepad here, in black (best for tracking, it seems? have had no problems with my red one though :p) http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMMS01-ModMyMachine-SlamePad-Aluminium-Gaming-Surface-Black-Angel-/121396733734?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item1c43cf2726

if you could afford that, maybe a better option? I can not find any problems with pure sensor tracking performance on mine!


Royal Mail International Signed : 12gbp, 45 TL
Royal Mail International Standard : 4 gbp, 15 TL

i hope standart shipping has tracking.  signed one just too expensive. the shipping costs a mouse pad :D i can buy it anyway but i heard aluminium wears out too, like plastics. i was thinking that buying this pad is a lifetime investment, then of course worth it. bu if it will wear out in a year or two, than sadly it is way above me.

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2714
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #107 on: Mon, 04 August 2014, 03:49:04 »
I don't know what exactly you are looking for in a mousepad, but I want:
- an even surface
- no or as little fraying as possible
- smooth and good gliding
- soft

This mousemat has it all.

Doesn't every mousepad on the market meet those criteria?

Did you buy a couple of other random cheap-O mousepads to compare the superduper expensive one against them to see if there is any real life functional difference?

If you have discovered a truly superior mousepad that costs me $50.00 then I will buy it.

But right now I am using some 20 year old mousepads that meet all your criteria except they are frayed a bit on 3 edges.  Just 3 tiny spots of fraying that don't bother me at all.

But since you payed big bux for your mousepad you have got me thinking... maybe my old mousepads are not as slippery as yours?  My old mousepads have a hard smooth surface that seems totally ok to me.  But I don't have your mousepad here to compare against.  For all I know yours is MOAR slipperier.

The reason I am interested in this subject is that I simply cannot find a high-DPI lightweight mouse.  As near as I can tell they don't exist.  But I could cheat and compensate for an overweight mouse by using some sort of spaceage superslippery mousepad.

When looking out for a new mousemat, my primary goals were preventing RSI (by having a soft surface, comfortable for my wrist and hand) and a trade-off between easy gliding (32" screen, FPS) as well as pixel precision (pixel art in illustrator / photoshop). That, coupled with the idea (or illusion, we'll see in a year) that the Hiro would be resistant to fraying, drove me towards the Hiro.

To answer your question directly, yes I have compared them to cheap ass mousemats (2 euro over here) as well as with a plastic mousemat (but not of high quality, also cheap), and my old Razer aluminum mousemat (somehwere around 2004, no idea what it is).

It does not glide as easy as glass or aluminum with those very very slick coatings. But it glides very easy. If I push my mouse hard enough, it keeps gliding to the end of the mousepad. If I gently tap it (let's say the force required to bottom out 45g switch), it will stop gliding after 2cm. So for me it is the ultimate trade-off between gliding and precision (friction).

But I have to admit, I did not compare with other well-known mousepads like the Qck or Artisan series.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2714
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #108 on: Mon, 04 August 2014, 03:55:28 »
But according to the OP, the Aviar has noticeable smoothing and jitter, while the Military does not...

Yeah, I really really do not get this. I read that before I bought the mouse, but I also tried to read almost anything I could find on Google about the mouse, including the stuff I posted earlier in this thread on OC.

I have zero smoothing and zero jitter. Literally none. I have not yet used the mouse testing software pro's put in their reviews with the curves etc. Also, I have found zero other people complaining about smoothing, so I have no idea where that notion comes from.

The only drawback on both the Avior 7000 and the Naos 7000 that I could find is that sometimes the software will not update the firmware. But my mouse already came with the new firmware. And, you can reset your mouse easily, so you will not brick your mouse when FW update goes wrong, in contrast to some routers (I look at you, Linksys). The other drawback is that some people find that it does not track well on other surfaces. I tried it on white surfaces, black surfaces and my dark brown wooden desk. It tracks perfectly. However, it does NOT track on skin. But hey, who's gonna use their tummy as a mousepad :p

So I was a little wary of the possibility that the FW upgrade might fail, but I did not had to perform it neither could I have bricked it. And it tracks well, so also no problems there.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #109 on: Mon, 04 August 2014, 14:37:32 »
But according to the OP, the Aviar has noticeable smoothing and jitter, while the Military does not...

Yeah, I really really do not get this. I read that before I bought the mouse, but I also tried to read almost anything I could find on Google about the mouse, including the stuff I posted earlier in this thread on OC.

I have zero smoothing and zero jitter. Literally none. I have not yet used the mouse testing software pro's put in their reviews with the curves etc. Also, I have found zero other people complaining about smoothing, so I have no idea where that notion comes from.

The only drawback on both the Avior 7000 and the Naos 7000 that I could find is that sometimes the software will not update the firmware. But my mouse already came with the new firmware. And, you can reset your mouse easily, so you will not brick your mouse when FW update goes wrong, in contrast to some routers (I look at you, Linksys). The other drawback is that some people find that it does not track well on other surfaces. I tried it on white surfaces, black surfaces and my dark brown wooden desk. It tracks perfectly. However, it does NOT track on skin. But hey, who's gonna use their tummy as a mousepad :p

So I was a little wary of the possibility that the FW upgrade might fail, but I did not had to perform it neither could I have bricked it. And it tracks well, so also no problems there.

Smoothing is a problem that not everyone will ever agree on. Where one person returns the mouse and finds it unbearable, someone else swears that they can not detect any delay even when looking for it. It is like this for literally every single model of mouse where people have mentioned this kind of delay to be an issue.

That said, I think you are right that the way I have added smoothing to the descriptions of some mice is not entirely satisfactory. I have been very inconsistent in where I did and did not include a remark about smoothing in the description. But of course, when it was included there was always a clear (compelling) reason (whether or not someone brings it up on the OCN boards should not be the only nor most important criterion). I also think that adding it to the description gives people the wrong idea about how the mouse tracks (even if they do read the "smoothing" section). This will be addressed. I think that I will probably take it out of the descriptions for now, and try to think of another way to include an indication when there are a large number of people who have mentioned that smoothing is an issue with a particular mouse.

EDIT: For now I have taken the issue of smoothing completely out of the mouse descriptions. I will think of a better way to add it to the guide, and try to think of a way to re-evaluate when a mouse has this issue. I have three motivations for taking it out for now. One, I have not found a way to consistently and reliably include it into the descriptions. Two, I think that for the vast majority of people using this guide when looking for a mouse, the delay that comes with smoothing is not something that is going to be an issue. Three, discussions about this issue has time and again proven to be unhelpful. By taking it out of the descriptions, I hope to prevent another one of these discussions and keep the focus on the more useful and informative things we can share with each other.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:16:00 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #110 on: Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:00:59 »
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

one thing worth noting though is that malfunction speed could be very low on the glass mats. I forgot to tell you about that :o
on my Icemat V2, I had a few problems with the Zowie FK for example. but it may not be an issue for high sensitivity. might affect jitter and such though.

I found a very cheap shipping option for the Slamepad here, in black (best for tracking, it seems? have had no problems with my red one though :p) http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMMS01-ModMyMachine-SlamePad-Aluminium-Gaming-Surface-Black-Angel-/121396733734?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item1c43cf2726

if you could afford that, maybe a better option? I can not find any problems with pure sensor tracking performance on mine!


Royal Mail International Signed : 12gbp, 45 TL
Royal Mail International Standard : 4 gbp, 15 TL

i hope standart shipping has tracking.  signed one just too expensive. the shipping costs a mouse pad :D i can buy it anyway but i heard aluminium wears out too, like plastics. i was thinking that buying this pad is a lifetime investment, then of course worth it. bu if it will wear out in a year or two, than sadly it is way above me.

this anodized aluminium pad has been a lot more durable than any other pad I've used. it's even scratch-resistant. I tried with my keys just around the logo to see... nothing :p
I think it seems a lot more durable than anything I've used before, maybe even the Icemat. though because of its durability, it seems to eat mouse feet quite fast.

but other pads like the Steelseries SX, Razer Manticor etc... that aren't anodized, do seem to wear out a lot faster.
I have had an SX and it wore out very fast. NOT recommended for that reason. that one was just polished aluminium. anodizing is a lot tougher.
6 months of use for my Slamepad showed no wear whatsoever. a new set of mousefeet and it felt like brand new. very very high end product. :)

can't help you with shipping questions since I don't know the UK shipping system, unfortunately!
but it is a real company so they can't actually trick you or anything like that.
if you want to order directly from ModMyMachine, the people working there are super nice and helpful, you could send them an e-mail and ask.

that said, the glass pad is probably really durable and looks super cool too. ;) I am not voting against it! just wanted to give you more options.

Offline Novus

  • Formerly the1onewolf
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mondai nothing~
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #111 on: Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:06:04 »
Wow this thread just became ocn overnight.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #112 on: Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:13:21 »
Wow this thread just became ocn overnight.

Yeah, lets try to avoid that. Guide has been altered to reflect some of the legitimate concerns raised by some of the posters in this thread. Hopefully this way we can prevent an unfruitful discussion of the "yes there is" / "no there is not" kind and keep our focus on things that are more useful and informative.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:17:03 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2714
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #113 on: Tue, 05 August 2014, 13:42:09 »
Wow this thread just became ocn overnight.

Yeah, lets try to avoid that. Guide has been altered to reflect some of the legitimate concerns raised by some of the posters in this thread. Hopefully this way we can prevent an unfruitful discussion of the "yes there is" / "no there is not" kind and keep our focus on things that are more useful and informative.

Indeed. Great guide, keep up the good work! I used the guide many times to inform my decision looking around for new mice.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #114 on: Wed, 06 August 2014, 06:30:42 »
Surprisingly, we are over 25.000 views in just 4 months or so. Geekhack gets more outside traffic than I thought it would. Lets continue working to expand and improve the guide. All feedback is welcome.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 August 2014, 08:05:40 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline pr0ximity

  • Posts: 2310
  • Location: Vacationland
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 06 August 2014, 10:47:44 »
Just finding this now, really love the guide. I used to dabble in mouse enthusiasm when I was playing more competitive Counter-Strike, but haven't been looking around for a new mouse in a while.

One thing that surprised me was no mention of the Razer Diamondback (non-3G) or the Logitech MX518. Circa 2007, as far as I'm aware, these were considered some of the best mice around. I wouldn't have mentioned them as at least the Diamondback is no longer being produced, however you mentioned the WMO 1.1 (my first mouse) which is also no longer produced.

Does anyone have any knowledge about how the original Diamondback sensor stacks up against the newer sensors?

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #116 on: Wed, 06 August 2014, 11:01:45 »
I believe both of those had pretty severe prediction, so not very good sensors in that regard. though definitely not bad.

Offline frosty

  • jukebox hero
  • Posts: 692
  • Location: Singapore
  • they told me i wasn't fun
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 13:42:46 »
is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #118 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 15:17:03 »
G402 so far seems to be, I was just reading a few reviews on it. can't comment on the DA Leftie 3.5g though.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 15:24:25 »
I believe both of those had pretty severe prediction, so not very good sensors in that regard. though definitely not bad.

Yeah. I had to look it up for the old diamondback, but I remember the 518 (it was a really popular mouse) had prediction as well. In this topic I do not try to judge whether mice are "good" or not in the broader sense. I am sure there are a lot of people who feel like the MX518 was a classic among gaming mice. However, the main idea of this thread/guide is a simple one: To make a list of mice (with some additional information) that specifically do not suffer from acceleration and prediction.

is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?

People sometimes use this word to describe mice and sensors.  I am not sure how to respond to it. What is flawless? You could argue that no sensor nor their implementation in mice is flawless/perfect.

From what I understand, I think that the people using the term "flawless" might mostly mean that the mouse has no prediction or acceleration. Though I am not 100% sure.

About the G402. I am still waiting for some feedback on the mouse. Even though I know that there are already some knowledgeable people that have done in depth reviews on it. I don't like to add mice to the list without people using and testing them at least for a little while. There has to be enough information out there to say anything useful about it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 August 2014, 20:34:42 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline frosty

  • jukebox hero
  • Posts: 692
  • Location: Singapore
  • they told me i wasn't fun
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #120 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 20:31:16 »
well, maybe i used the wrong word. what if i change the words to matchable to the likes of the da2013 and g400s respectively? does it equal, underperform or exceed ?

Offline MaximilianKohler

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Arizona
  • test
    • My youtube channel
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #121 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 07:02:41 »
well, maybe i used the wrong word. what if i change the words to matchable to the likes of the da2013 and g400s respectively? does it equal, underperform or exceed ?
What mouse are you talking about? Your original comment said: "is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?"

You can find some info/comparison about those mice here though: http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_50 as well as on Ino's g402 thread.
High level, competitive CS 1.6 player

My reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #122 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 09:47:29 »
I believe he is asking if the G402 and leftie DA3.5g are as good as DA2013 and G400s... the answer is probably yes, better I would think even :p

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4268
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #123 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 11:15:32 »
I believe both of those had pretty severe prediction, so not very good sensors in that regard. though definitely not bad.

Yeah. I had to look it up for the old diamondback, but I remember the 518 (it was a really popular mouse) had prediction as well. In this topic I do not try to judge whether mice are "good" or not in the broader sense. I am sure there are a lot of people who feel like the MX518 was a classic among gaming mice. However, the main idea of this thread/guide is a simple one: To make a list of mice (with some additional information) that specifically do not suffer from acceleration and prediction.

is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?

People sometimes use this word to describe mice and sensors.  I am not sure how to respond to it. What is flawless? You could argue that no sensor nor their implementation in mice is flawless/perfect.

From what I understand, I think that the people using the term "flawless" might mostly mean that the mouse has no prediction or acceleration. Though I am not 100% sure.

About the G402. I am still waiting for some feedback on the mouse. Even though I know that there are already some knowledgeable people that have done in depth reviews on it. I don't like to add mice to the list without people using and testing them at least for a little while. There has to be enough information out there to say anything useful about it.


When I hear/read "flawless" in reference to a mouse, I usually infer it to mean that it's applied to the sensor, and that it means that it has no prediction or acceleration, and also means that it tracks perfectly up to a very high velocity and can handle high acceleration perfectly as well.

I've used quite a few mice that have no accel or jitter or prediction at low speeds, but the moment I flick it across my pad the pointer jumps all over the place. Super frustrating.

Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #124 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 14:36:29 »
Hi guys!

First: Thanks for that list and that informative post. You have saved me countless of hours when it comes to sorting out sensors and mice.

Second: I registered to ask why the CM Storm Recon is not on the list, it has a 3090, and judging by the reviews i've read so far it seems to belong on the list, right? The Termaltake Saphira is also sporting a 3090.

« Last Edit: Sun, 10 August 2014, 14:53:53 by geekhackforumaccount »

Offline frosty

  • jukebox hero
  • Posts: 692
  • Location: Singapore
  • they told me i wasn't fun
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #125 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 22:59:34 »
ok what i mean by flawless is, no prediction, acceleration nor jitter. so how does the left handed edition of the deathadder compare to a deathadder 2013 or a deathadder 3.5G? also, how does the G402 compare to G400S?

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #126 on: Mon, 11 August 2014, 04:55:03 »
ok what i mean by flawless is, no prediction, acceleration nor jitter. so how does the left handed edition of the deathadder compare to a deathadder 2013 or a deathadder 3.5G? also, how does the G402 compare to G400S?

As far as I know the left-handed Deathadder is simply a Deathadder 3.5g with the same tracking characteristics.

I have not answered you question yet about the G402 because Logitech is doing something new/different with the sensor, and I wanted to wait until a few people get their hands on it first. Essentially it uses a AM010 sensor. But they do something with it to increase the tracking speeds it can attain. So far, I have heard some positive and negative things.

From some tests however, it shows that people are able to make the sensor malfunction fairly easily, despite the solution that logitech applied. For now I will not add it to the list in this topic. I would argue that if you want a mouse with a shape similar to the G402, at this point, it makes sense just going for the G502 instead which has the 3366 sensor.

« Last Edit: Mon, 11 August 2014, 05:14:24 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline TotalChaos

  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Indy Game Coder
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 11 August 2014, 04:59:55 »
Does anyone know what causes jitter?

It is purely a software problem, right?

Not caused by hardware defects, right?

I "just assume" that its analogous to the debounce routine that every keyboard has to keep keypresses from "jittering".

Is jittering a common problem for 3500 dpi mice?

I am throwing a bunch of mice in my cart right now and doing research to try to narrow it down a bit.  I would hate to spend a lot of money on a 3500 dpi (or whatever) mouse and then not be able to actually use it at the high-dpi settings.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #128 on: Mon, 11 August 2014, 05:24:56 »
Does anyone know what causes jitter?

It is purely a software problem, right?

Not caused by hardware defects, right?

I "just assume" that its analogous to the debounce routine that every keyboard has to keep keypresses from "jittering".

Is jittering a common problem for 3500 dpi mice?

I am throwing a bunch of mice in my cart right now and doing research to try to narrow it down a bit.  I would hate to spend a lot of money on a 3500 dpi (or whatever) mouse and then not be able to actually use it at the high-dpi settings.

You can watch this video around the 10:00 minute to learn something more about it:
t=611

Also read the section "vii. Jitter/Ripple" in this guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tech-support/333648-an-overview-of-mouse-technology

I hope that gives you a better idea.
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline TotalChaos

  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Indy Game Coder
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #129 on: Mon, 11 August 2014, 09:06:57 »
Quote
Also read the section "vii. Jitter/Ripple" in this guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tech-support/333648-an-overview-of-mouse-technology

That is an awesome article!  Thanks for the homework assignment  :))   I only read the part about jitter.  I am about to go read the rest of it but I wanted to say something quickly before I forgot:

If I was working at a mouse company and the sensor produced a jittery signal, the very first thought that would pop into my head would be to code in a Prediction routine which would get rid of the jitter.

Is this the reason that lots of mice have Prediction?
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #130 on: Fri, 15 August 2014, 19:51:47 »
Is this the reason that lots of mice have Prediction?

I honestly do not know for sure. I always saw prediction as a remnant from the past. A feature that was at some point intentionally implemented that then carried over to later generations of sensors and mice. If you watch the video I linked before, what he says seems to confirm this suspicion.

Planning to make some additions to the guide:
-Thinking about whether or not adding mice using the AM010 sensor such as the G100S and the G402.
-Thinking about adding the DPI available for each mouse
-Thinking about adding a couple of mice that might deserve to be on the list in some ways, but for which there are legitimate reasons to keep them of the list as well (like the Krait 4G and Tt esport's Saphira)

Any feedback and opinions on whether or not these should be included is welcome.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 August 2014, 07:50:59 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline whentheclouds

  • Posts: 612
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #131 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 04:22:19 »
you can divide them into a recommended tier (i.e. the main list), and a second "for consideration" tier. i think the more information provided the better, as this thread's reputation has grown far in the last couple months (i would say it's the mice equivalent of NCX's monitor review subforum)

Offline TotalChaos

  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Indy Game Coder
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #132 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 06:59:02 »
Planning to make some additions to the guide:
-Thinking about adding the DPI available for each mouse
Yes!  :thumb:

In the other thread I mentioned that you forgot to include the "weight" but what I meant to say was "DPI".  My apologies.

Do you conduct any scientific tests yourself to verify the info that you collect?

Like, supposing someone sent you a free mouse.  Would you perform an autoposy on it?
Weigh it?
Measure how much force it takes to click the mousebuttons?
Other?

Or do you simply collect info from other mouse scientists?
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #133 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 07:42:10 »
you can divide them into a recommended tier (i.e. the main list), and a second "for consideration" tier. i think the more information provided the better, as this thread's reputation has grown far in the last couple months (i would say it's the mice equivalent of NCX's monitor review subforum)

I appreciate the contribution of this idea. But there are a number of reasons why I want to avoid putting mice in tiers.

- I like to encourage people to pick something that works for them,  rather than something is theoretically the best mouse. I am not sure if I like what categorizing in tiers seems to imply and how it will affect people's decision.
- Dividing mice into tiers will lead to pointless discussions of where mice should rank.
- Even if we judge mice only based on tracking performance, how do we rank them? How bad is a low malfunction speed, compared to some slight jitter? I think this is something the user should decide for himself, and the answer will be different for different people.

Do you conduct any scientific tests yourself to verify the info that you collect?

Like, supposing someone sent you a free mouse.  Would you perform an autoposy on it?
Weigh it?
Measure how much force it takes to click the mousebuttons?
Other?

Or do you simply collect info from other mouse scientists?

This is why I wrote the acknowledgement at the end of the guide.

In the past I have bought and used many mice (after using the WMO 1.1 for a long, long time). I was always looking for info, trying to figure out what I should try next, which mice would satisfy my needs and so on. I thought it would be nice if someone gathered that info and put it in one place. And so I did. This guide is intended as a resource for someone who wants to buy a mouse and wants some info on the models available that satisfy the condition of not having acceleration and prediction.

For the information in the guide, I do rely on the information others have provided. Even for the mice I have used myself, that I have been able to try and test properly I still look at what other people say about them. For example, I try to see if there are any common quality issues that I may not have run into. Or perhaps there is some tracking issue that I myself may not have noticed. I think that for a thread like this, you need a community of people to contribute rather than one person with just one observation.

That is why in the acknowledgement and parts of the guide, I tell readers to think of this as a compilation of information taken from various resources. I do this to give credit to those communities, but also to signal that these are not just the findings from one individual person, which I think is less reliable than the consensus in an entire community.

 
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 August 2014, 07:45:37 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline darkwind86

  • Posts: 1
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #134 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 16:43:12 »
What about the func ms-2? It apparently uses an avago 3090 unlike its sister mouse, the ms-3.

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #135 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 22:00:26 »
is it actually out yet? I saw on a webshop here that it's supposed to be in stock by the end of August/beginning of September.
if only they would choose the 3310 instead, looks like a really nice alternative to the Zowie EC1/EC2 type mice. (and Deathadder if you like that one?)

Offline reaver9

  • Posts: 7
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #136 on: Sun, 17 August 2014, 15:51:40 »
Hello everybody, I'm new to the forum and it seems that I found the right place to ask this!
First of all, I would like to thank the OP, it really helped me narrowing the options I had...the thing is, I have a IE 3.0, still really good after 5 years of use, but the last year the famous double click started to happen =(. Now I'm searching for a new mice, would like something that could last a long time (don't need to be this much). I use claw/fingertip grip and I'm confuse between the DA 2013 and the corsair M40/M45 (btw, besides the LOD difference betwen the sensors of the m40 and m45, is there something else? I don't think the lod of the m40 is a dealbreaker for me). What you guys think about these two? Where I live the price would be, translating to dolars, 30 bucks more for the DA 2013, do you think that regarding the sensor (neither one have acceleration right? avago 3988, avago 3090 and the pixart 3310) , build quality and confort is it worth? Which one would benefit more? Any suggestions are welcome and sorry about the gramma. Thanks for the attention!

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #137 on: Sun, 17 August 2014, 22:11:15 »
hi - I think that the DA2013 is not really as good as some other options you have, like the Zowie EC1 eVo. it has a similar shape but better build and sensor performance as well.
there is also the Steelseries Rival but it's a bit heavy, heavier than IME3.0. though also similar shape. build quality seemed ok to me but some users have reported problems with it.

but going by the fact that you are looking at Corsair M40/M45, you might be open to other shapes right? :p

some of the best performers for right handed ergonomics here are for example Logitech G502, Mionix Naos 7000, Roccat Kone Pure Military, and perhaps even Logitech G402. (and the EC1 eVo as mentioned before)

all using 3090 or 3310 / 3366, except G402, which has an older but upgraded sensor that is fantastic.

I don't know much about the Corsair mouse but I just thought I'd help look at some other options

Offline reaver9

  • Posts: 7
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #138 on: Sun, 17 August 2014, 22:53:34 »
Thanks! Really? I've read some really good reviews about it, I've tested it very quickly and it felt lighter than my IME 3.0. Zowie EC1 eVo is costing a lot of money here, and the Rival being that heavier than IME 3.0 I think I'll pass, mostly because I think I'll benefit more with something that weights the same or less than ime 3.0, I use low sens, lift the mouse a lot during fps games.
Yes, I'm open to other shapes, no problem  :D! I was looking more at the mices section and the mionix avior seems pretty good! Don't know if it's shape is the right one for me, since I don't really use palm grip, even when browsing I remain with the claw/fingertip grip...
About the others that you mentioned, the best performers for right handed ergonomics, I don't really liked most of them (shape wise and mostly about the grip). Sorry, I don't want to sound annoying or trying to find problems in what you suggested, it's just I'm really picky about it.
Do you really think that the DA2013 isn't that good? Is the sensor, build quality..? And comparing it to the mionix avior is it inferior? Nevertheless, thank you for the advices, really appreciate it  :thumb:!

Offline MaximilianKohler

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Arizona
  • test
    • My youtube channel
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #139 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 13:18:17 »
No, the SS rival is much lighter than the 3.0.

The 128g weight that SS has listed on their website must be including the cord.

Also, I googled 3.0 weight and it's listed as 108g. Maybe different versions of the mouse weigh different amounts because my 3.0 legends edition is really heavy. Much heavier than the rival. I have problems fingertip gripping my 3.0 because of its weight, whereas the rival was fine for me in finger tip grip because it was light enough.

@reaver9 I wouldn't "upgrade" from the 3.0 to the rival unless you need the higher malfunction speed. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.msg1421432#msg1421432
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 August 2014, 13:19:52 by MaximilianKohler »
High level, competitive CS 1.6 player

My reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #140 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 14:22:42 »
I think it feels lighter due to being easier to grip and different shape, but I don't think it's much lighter? I definitely like it more than the IME 3.0 but... :) they're both great mice!

DA2013 has a bit of input delay on the sensor, and build quality with razer products is subpar. not a bad mouse per se, but there are some better ones out there. if it's a lot cheaper it is an option worth considering. (I still wouldn't get one but price seems to be a matter here :p)

the Avior is not palm grip at all, very claw/Fingertip. the Naos however is super palm grip. maybe you confused the two? I use the Avior for a fingertip grip myself, and I love it. I can see it being even better for claw users.

I understand not liking the others - they seem very weird and look ugly :p but the Avior, Kone Pure Optical/Military, are two of the nicest claw grip mice I know of. are you sure it's claw grip you mean?
seems weird to claw grip on the IME 3.0, since you can't really lift it very well due to the right side.

Offline reaver9

  • Posts: 7
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #141 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 18:29:43 »
@MaximilianKohler Really? The weight thing is good, and I don't think my 3.0 is heavy, just about the limit I guess (it's the old one, not the legends like you have).

@munch That's right, I had a razer mice a long time ago, cooperhead, and man...even with this double click issue I prefer my 3.0  :))! I though they had done a good job with the DA2013 reading some reviews, that doesn't seems to be the case. Isn't really the price, more availability, if I choose to get Mionix for example, I have to import and that can be a pain here where I live, but I reeeally like it, from the aesthetics, the sensor and the grip. Do you use one?

I'm used to using the claw grip on the 3.0, my last two fingers hold the right side, while I hold the left with my thumb to lift it up when needed, guess it's just a habit. One more question, about the sensors, the one on the mionix avior 7000 (pixart 3310), how much of improvement it is comparing with the avago 3090? I've read it somewhere that the 3310 have more smoothing than the 3090, but what really preocupies me is if the 3090 have any acceleration, I'm getting some people saying that yes and some that no, I'm a little confused right now.

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #142 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 19:02:46 »
I have not yet experienced any 3090 with acceleration. the 3310 does not feel like it has any smoothing input lag to me. it's really snappy and fast, super happy with it.

well, a lot of reviews are from people with little experience and not as high standards as some of us geeks :p or just downright sponsored reviews. while it isn't a bad mouse, it's not great either, simply put.

I use the Avior 7000 yeah, best mouse I've used so far. very grip/lift friendly. and surface is great. buttons are nice and a bit lighter than my FK. scroll wheel is definitely a lot better than on the Zowie mice I tried.
everything just feels very snappy. and the customization is great too, not that I really use it much, just set and forget. :p
a shame you have to import it! I wish you could try it first. ergonomics/shape/feel in hand is the most important part of a mouse IMO.

Offline reaver9

  • Posts: 7
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #143 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 20:25:58 »
Nice to know that, so both sensors are really good and don't disappoint! I agree with you, we do have high standards and research a lot to avoid buying some "crap" hardware  :p ! Yeah, from what you're saying, there's a better way to spend my money, instead of buying DA2013  :D

With you saying that I'm really considering importing mionix (even if I have to pay more for that) everything about this mouse seems to be great, from the construction, sensor, to the ergonomics, looks like one hell of a mice!

From my options right now, I'm between the mionix avior 7000 and the corsair m40, sensor wise they are kinda tied, what would define it could be the format of the mouse itself, but since I can't test any of them, that would be more of a "blind" buy. Do you have any advice on that?

Offline MaximilianKohler

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Arizona
  • test
    • My youtube channel
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #144 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 20:42:35 »
Nice to know that, so both sensors are really good and don't disappoint! I agree with you, we do have high standards and research a lot to avoid buying some "crap" hardware  :p ! Yeah, from what you're saying, there's a better way to spend my money, instead of buying DA2013  :D

With you saying that I'm really considering importing mionix (even if I have to pay more for that) everything about this mouse seems to be great, from the construction, sensor, to the ergonomics, looks like one hell of a mice!

From my options right now, I'm between the mionix avior 7000 and the corsair m40, sensor wise they are kinda tied, what would define it could be the format of the mouse itself, but since I can't test any of them, that would be more of a "blind" buy. Do you have any advice on that?

Did you read my link? What game(s) are you buying a mouse for?
High level, competitive CS 1.6 player

My reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd

Offline reaver9

  • Posts: 7
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #145 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 21:18:04 »
@MaximilianKohler I'm sorry dude, I've opened it on my cellphone and then when I moved to the computer I completely forgot! I've read it now and thanks for the input! About the cooperhead, I don't know if I got a faulty one, but when I moved mine horizontally (especially in cs 1.6) my crosshair started going up, and I tried all the cmd comands, mouse fix, etc, at that time. Then I got the 3.0, and man, wonderful! DPI wise, I think that the 400 are perfect for me, don't need more. I play mostly cs 1.6, now moving to cs:go, played a loooong time competitive, still take it "seriously" online, but meh. Currently I'm using windows 7 and overclocking it to 500hz, plan on getting w8, that would be that bad? And comparing the sensors, I'm used to the one that the 3.0 has, to me, no problems at all! I've watched your videos, and it seems that after testing all the other mices, you still preffer the 3.0, is that right?

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #146 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 21:29:16 »
corsair shape is very different, it's like skinnier in the back and fatter in the front, quite the opposite of the Avior... very tough to know what you like. the IE3.0 is fatter in the back and skinnier where you place your fingers, and the Rival too. at least that's how I remember it? so the Avior seems more similar to me.

I don't know how much else I can help here, sorry! but feel free to ask any more questions you have.


Offline MaximilianKohler

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Arizona
  • test
    • My youtube channel
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #147 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 09:04:31 »
@MaximilianKohler I'm sorry dude, I've opened it on my cellphone and then when I moved to the computer I completely forgot! I've read it now and thanks for the input! About the cooperhead, I don't know if I got a faulty one, but when I moved mine horizontally (especially in cs 1.6) my crosshair started going up, and I tried all the cmd comands, mouse fix, etc, at that time. Then I got the 3.0, and man, wonderful! DPI wise, I think that the 400 are perfect for me, don't need more. I play mostly cs 1.6, now moving to cs:go, played a loooong time competitive, still take it "seriously" online, but meh. Currently I'm using windows 7 and overclocking it to 500hz, plan on getting w8, that would be that bad? And comparing the sensors, I'm used to the one that the 3.0 has, to me, no problems at all! I've watched your videos, and it seems that after testing all the other mices, you still preffer the 3.0, is that right?

Yes, I still prefer the 3.0 by a big margin. I messaged both Zowie and Logitech about this issue. I'm hopeful that we might finally have a valid replacement for the MLT04 sometime next year.

That problem you had with the copperhead might have been due to it's very low malfunction speed.

My friend is staying on win7 in order to keep 500hz on his WMO. I moved to win8 because 500hz is built in to my motherboard.
High level, competitive CS 1.6 player

My reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd

Offline reaver9

  • Posts: 7
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #148 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 11:24:40 »
@munch oh yeah, I know  :D! I was trying to say that these two would be the ones that I would choose so far, I think that I can adapt to the ergonomics of both of them, sorry if wasn't clear!

@MaximilianKohler really? that's nice to know...hope that they get the sensor right this time. About the cooperhead you must be right, I know that when that happened, was a deal breaker for me.
I have a few questions if you don't mind answering! I'll be acquiring a 27" monitor soon enough, and will start playing games at 2560x1440...I know it's quite high resolution, do you think that 400 dpi would be too low for that? Ingame and while browsing? I mean, I would have to change that much my sens? And do you think if I got a mionix for example, if I use 800 dpi via software to help with the increased resolution and kinda balance this increase by lowering my sens ingame would be the same? Would it result in the "same" perception with a 400 dpi or would be a lot diferent? Or just stick with 400 dpi anyway? I ask that because of the new monitor and gaming at higher resolutions, if that would be that big of a deal. Don't know if that would be any help, but I was used this cfg when I player: 640x480 ingame, windows sens 6, 1000hz, no accel and 2.4 sens ingame, with the 3.0, 400 dpi I guess.

Offline munch

  • Posts: 511
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #149 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 14:50:12 »
800dpi and 1.2 feels the same as 400 and 2.4 for me, I am not sure if it should work like that but I tried it out. :) although the 3.0 is 450dpi I think? the newer darker version.

when I start getting over 2000 dpi, and adjusting sens to match 400dpi/2.4 in-game, it starts to feel a bit 'wobbly', and not as accurate. can't put my finger on why that is but I hope it's not just placebo.

but using lower DPI steps like that, you should be good! the Mionix is VERY good when it comes to jitter performance.

I hope that helps :p it's a fantastic mouse, if the shape is right for you. :)