Author Topic: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.  (Read 389596 times)

0 Members and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Updated: August 2016. Most recent mouse added: Logitech G Pro

About the mice in this overview
The mice in this overview were selected based on their performance on a number of criteria. While they do not perform equally well in each individual aspect, as a whole they outperform most other mice on the market. Specifically, none of the mice on the list suffer from acceleration or prediction within their max perfect tracking speeds. One thing you might notice is the lack of flagship model mice in the list. This is not a mistake, and largely explained by their use of laser sensors (particularly the Avago ADNS 9500, the Avago ADNS 9800 and the Philips Twin Eye sensor). These sensors typically perform well on most criteria, but are flawed in ways that make people avoid them.

1 Criteria
- 1.a Acceleration
- 1.b Prediction
- 1.c Lift off distance
- 1.d Max perfect tracking speed
- 1.e Malfunction/ Skipping speed
- 1.f Lag/Delay
- 1.g Jitter
- 1.h Smoothing
- 1.i Pixel walk
- 1.j Pixel skipping

2 Common terms
- 2.1 CPI/DPI
- 2.2 Polling rate
- 2.3 laser and optical sensor
- 2.4 Sensitivity

3 List of mice without acceleration and prediction
- Microsoft WMO 1.1
- Microsoft IMO 1.1
- Microsoft IME 3.0
- Zowie FK
- Zowie AM
- Zowie FK1
- Zowie EC1 CL
- Zowie EC1 eVo
- Zowie EC2 CL
- Zowie EC2 eVo
- Zowie EC1-A
- Zowie EC2-A
- Zowie ZA 11
- Zowie ZA 12
- Zowie ZA 13
- Razer Deathadder 3G
- Razer Deathadder 3.5G
- Razer Deathadder 2013
- Razer Deathadder Chroma
- Razer Abyssus
- Logitech G400
- Logitech G400s
- Logitech G303
- Logitech G502
- Logitech G Pro
- Steelseries Kana V2
- Steelseries Rival
- Mionix Avoir 7000
- Mionix Castor
- Cooler Master Storm Spawn
- Cooler master Storm Alcor
- Roccat Savu
- Roccat Kone Pure Optical
- Roccat Kone Pure Military
- Mad Catz R.A.T. 3
- Corsair M45
- Final Mouse 2015


4 Discussion: Mouse characteristics
- 4.1 Sensor positioning
- 4.2 Mouse feet
- 4.3 Scroll wheel
- 4.4 Cord
- 4.5 Weight
- 4.6 Coating
- 4.7 Side-buttons

5 Software

6 References


1 Criteria
So what makes a good mouse? A lot of things are obviously subjective. Everyone has a different grip, playstyle and particular anatomy, so naturally different people like different mice. However, there are some more or less objective criteria we can use to rate the performance of mice. By doing this, we can create a list of mice with superior sensor performance that span a variety of different shapes and sizes, so that it becomes possible for anyone to find something within the list that works for them both from an ergonomic and a sensor-performance standpoint. While individual skill remains the most important factor for ingame success, it is good to have some knowledge of mice, their sensors, and the way in which they can be lacking.

Mice listed here score well on most of the following criteria (when they do not perform well on one or more of the criteria in this list, it will be pointed out)

1.a Acceleration
Both distance traveled and speed with which the mouse is moved affect the distance the cross-hair on the screen moves. It occurs due to a misinterpretation of the sensor with respect to the speed. Basically, a sensor with acceleration is not able to see the same count when you move it fast and when you move it slow (for an idea of what this count is , see the CPI section).

We can use an example to illustrate what acceleration is:
-No acceleration: A person moves his mouse 5 inches slow, he turns 90 degrees in-game. He moves his mouse 5 inches fast, he turns 90 degrees in-game.
-Positive acceleration: A person moves his mouse 5 inches slow, he turns 90 degrees in game. He moves his mouse 5 inches fast, he turns 110 degrees in-game. (increased movement speed increases cursor movement, hence positive)
-Negative acceleration: A person moves his mouse 5 inches slow, he turns 90 degrees in game. He moves his mouse 5 inches fast, he turns 70 degrees in-game.  (increased movement speed decreases cursor movement, hence negative)

While not always a bad thing, most people like to have a one to one relationship between movement by the mouse and movement on the screen. However, some people like to use acceleration because it offers them some sort of built in sensitivity adjustment. For example, when acceleration is positive, it allows the user to move the mouse slow to make the cursor or crosshair move slow so that they can be accurate. At the same time, the user can move the mouse fast to do a fast 180 degree turn, as fast mouse movement results in faster cursor movement. It is easy to see how acceleration can provide a unique benefit.

However, even for those who like to use acceleration, it is preferable to use the known and stable software acceleration available in games and within their operating system. The problem with hardware acceleration caused by the sensor in the mouse is that it can be both positive and negative, can be affected by the surface the sensor is used on, and can be unstable/inconsistent.

Acceleration is generally more noticeable to low sensitivity players who make long sweeps at varying speeds.

1.b Prediction
Also known as "angle snapping" and "mouse correction". The sensor removes very small movements from the tracking, ignoring small deviations from a mostly straight line. When you come close to moving in a vertical or horizontal line with the mouse, cursor-movement will be straight rather than follow your exact movement. Not everyone minds prediction , but generally most people want whatever happens on screen to mimic movement of the mouse, and prediction creates an inaccuracy in that regard.

1.c Lift off distance
This is the distance the mouse needs to be lifted from the mousepad to make the sensor stop tracking. Generally it is better to have a lower lift of distance, so that the sensor stops tracking the moment the mouse is lifted from the surface. People who have developed a habit of sometimes lifting the mouse 1 or 2 millimeter without the intention to make it stop tracking can have trouble adapting to mice with a very low lift off distance.

1.d Max perfect tracking speed
The maximum speed with which the mouse can be used where the tracking still stays perfectly accurate. Usually lower than malfunction/skipping speed. These tracking speeds are important for all players, but when the tracking speed is not up to par, it is most noticeable by low sensitivity players, who tend to use long sweeps at high speeds.

1.e Malfunction/ Skipping speed
The maximum speed with which the mouse can be used where the sensor does not stop tracking. When you hit the malfunction speed, what typically happens is that it appears that your mouse just stops tracking for an instant the moment you hit that speed. This is called "skipping".

1.f Lag/delay
A slight delay between mouse input and movement of the cursor/cross-hair on the screen. Sometimes it can be hard to spot, and fairly hard to capture and replicate. Especially when it happens inconsistently.

1.g Jitter
Also known as "ripple". The cursor does not follow mouse-movement exactly, but slightly moves in directions away from where it is supposed to go, making it "jittery" or "shaky". This is a problem often associated with using high (non-native) DPI settings (for more information see the CPI section).

1.h Smoothing
Sometimes, people mistake smoothing for prediction since that is what the word "smoothing" seems to describe. The problem of "noticeable smoothing" falls in the category of lag/delay (which can be caused by a number of things, "smoothing" being one of them), but I decided to add it separately to address some of the confusion surrounding it. The thing people notice when they complain about "smoothing" is actually a delayed response when moving the mouse. Every mouse has smoothing and in itself it is not a bad thing. It just describes part of the process of how mouse tracking is translated to cursor movement.  Where smoothing starts to become an issue is when this process noticeably affects sensor performance in the form delay. I should note that the delay associated with smoothing is not something that will be a problem for everyone, or not even something everyone will be able to notice.

1.i Pixel Walk
Pixel walk describes a sensor's inability to pick up slow mouse movement. At some very low speeds the sensor hesitates between motion and no motion. Every sensor has a certain speed threshold that needs to be passed for tracking to start. For some sensors, this "starting speed" is fairly high. Often, this is reported as lag/delay, because in addition to not following small slow movements, it feels as though there is a delay between when the mouse starts moving and when the cursor responds. This is due to the speed treshold not being reached immediately when the mouse starts moving. It also needs to be pointed out that the term "pixel walk" is sometimes used in a wrong context, describing issues with unintended cursor movement.

1.j Pixel Skipping
When tracking, a count from the sensor is translated to several pixels of cursor movement on the screen. This means that there is a loss in accuracy. It is not possible to manipulate the cursor with precision, and move it one pixel at a time, or land on one specific pixel on the screen. This problem is commonly, but not exclusively, associated with having a high windows sensitivity setting (>6/11).

2 Common terms
Here I explain some of the common terms that are used in relation to mice. (more are planned to be included)

2.1 CPI (better known as DPI)
"Raising the DPI is completely against the logic of performance"
"DPI... is a translation of how many pixels I travel when I move my hand by one inch. It is only this."
~ François Morier, Senior Engineer at Logitech.

Video:

The reason why I added those two quotes and the video is to address a common misconception about DPI. Somehow, people associate higher levels of DPI with higher levels of accuracy. This is not correct. A higher DPI does not mean that the sensor is more accurate, and on many occasions there is even a trade off in terms of performance to attain those higher levels of DPI.  You will notice that on the list of mice that are in this topic/guide, few of the the higher DPI mice/sensors currently available make the cut.

DPI itself is nothing more than a certain "count" per inch traveled. A higher DPI means a higher count for any distance the sensor travels across a surface which leads to the cursor (or reticle) on the screen traveling a larger distance. For example, when you are using a DPI of 400. That means that when you move the sensor an inch it will cover 400 pixels (not taking into account any ingame or OS sensitivity settings). This means that on a 1920x1080 resolution screen, it will take 1920/400=4.8 inches of mouse-movement to travel across the entire length of the screen. Note that this also means that in some (but not all) applications perceived sensitivity by the user is lower for higher resolution screens.

In some cases, the addition of a wider variety of DPI steps can come at a cost in the sense that those DPI steps reduce the performance of the sensor. Especially when it comes to optical sensors, high DPI settings are typically not native to the sensor. Instead, the higher DPI settings are attained through a technique known as interpolation (more accurately, there are different techniques through which interpolation is attained). This does not necessarily cause an issue, but there are common problems with several firmware and implementations of this technique by manufacturers. An in depth description of the interpolation process is both beyond my knowledge and the scope of this topic. If you want to know more about interpolation, you could watch the video above, and I highly suggest you check out the overview of mouse-technology by wo1fwood linked in the bottom under references. 

2.2 Polling rate
This is the frequency with which data is being sent to the operating system. The default polling rate on USB is lower than what most mice are capable of (every 8 miliseconds, or 125Hz), which is the reason why people sometimes "overclock" the polling /sampling rate (for more information see:
More
). Practically all modern gaming mice standard have a higher polling rate enabled. A polling rate of 500Hz or 1000Hz represents information being sent with a frequency of 2ms and 1 ms respctively. Typically you will not notice a difference between the two, but some mice that have an option to change polling rates do not behave exactly the same on both settings.

2.3 Laser and optical sensor
You will find that many mice are being advertized as being either laser or optical sensor mice. Obviously, this refers to the way the sensor detects movement of the mouse. Essentially, both laser and optical mice work very similarly. The main difference is the method that is used to illuminate the area under the sensor. With optical mice, this is done through the use of a light emitting diode (LED). Laser mice instead use an infrared laser diode to illuminate the surface under the sensor. The more interesting thing is the difference between the performance of laser and optical mice. Laser mice use a newer technology and are typically capable of attaining a higher DPI. For these two reasons people often incorrectly assume that laser sensors are superior.

When it comes to the sensor being able to track well on a surface, there are differences between the two, but one is not strictly better than the other. Laser sensors track better on some surfaces (like glass) while optical sensors track better on others (typically, cloth mousepads). Where the laser sensors lose out to the optical sensors is when it comes to accuracy and reliability. While the newer laser sensors manage to avoid prediction, the popular Avago laser sensors (9500, 9800) found in many modern mice all suffer from acceleration issues. Furthermore, while these sensor have a very high malfunction speed, their maximum perfect tracking speed is actually lower than that of the typical optical sensor. Another frequently used laser sensor, the Philips twin eye sensor, uses a different method to register mouse-movement. It actually does not have any acceleration issues, but introduces a problem when lifting the mouse, commonly referred to as a z-axis problem. The cursor moves when the mouse is lifted, which creates a problem for people who lift the mouse frequently with the intention of having the sensor stop its tracking.

One thing that is worth pointing out is that even when mice use the same sensor, that does not mean they have identical tracking characteristics. Different manufacturers implement sensors in a different way. Take the Avago 3090 sensor for example. Due to the specific implementation of it, we see it in mice that have some of the lowest lift of distances, and in mice that have some of the highest lift of distances on the market. Additionally, we see that the max perfect tracking speed differs across mice using this same sensor.

2.4 Sensitivity
Sensitivity describes the speed and distance of cursor movement that happens as a result of moving the sensor across a surface.  A higher sensitivity means that for any sensor /mouse movement, the cursor moves faster and travels a greater distance than for a lower sensitivity.

The sensitivity that you experience in-game is usually dependent on 3 settings:
-The sensitivity setting within in the operating syste (windows sensitivity slider)
-DPI setting on the mouse
-Ingame sensitivity setting
Ingame  sensitivity = [OS sensitivity setting] * [DPI setting on the mouse] * [Ingame sensitivity setting]

Many games give an option to use “raw input”. By turning this on, the OS sensitivity setting will be ignored for your ingame sensitivity. Your ingame sensitivity will then be described by: [DPI setting on the mouse] * [Ingame sensitivity setting]. However, it is not uncommon for issues to be reported with the “raw input” setting of some games. This is why people often choose the windows 6/11 setting instead without using raw input, making sure they are not exposing themselves to any specific issue the raw input setting of a particular game might cause.
 
A windows setting of 6/11 is the best setting, as it gives a 1 to 1 relationship between mouse and cursor movement that is not altered through software. In practice, using a windows setting below 6/11 is not too harmful. Certain minimal amounts of movement are thrown out (counts ignored), but minimal mouse movement remains 1 pixel, so there is no “skipping pixels”. Depending on the choice of windows setting, sensitivity is multiplied in the following way:

Setting 1/11 = 0.0625
Setting 2/11 = 0.0125
Setting 3/11 = 0.25
Setting 4/11 = 0.5
Setting 5/11 = 0.75
Setting 6/11 = 1
Setting 7/11 = 1.5
Setting 8/11 = 2
Setting 9/11 = 2.5
Setting 10/11 = 3
Setting 11/11 = 3.5

Where things start going wrong in a more noticeable and harmful way is when you choose a windows sensitivity above 6/11. This will result in skipped pixels. For example, if you wanted to do something with precision and move the cursor with one pixel, this might not be possible with a windows sensitivity setting larger than 6/11. The higher the windows sensitivity past 6/11, the more pixels are skipped. Minimal mouse-movement is no longer 1 pixel, but instead several pixels.

One thing that is annoying about sensitivity is that there is no unified measure for it in games. Additionally, different games deal with field of view settings in different ways, sometimes making it impossible to play on the exact same sensitivity settings. However, given a certain DPI and windows sensitivity setting, you can tweak the ingame sensitivity setting to get close to a sensitivity setting that you find comfortable to use. One method that is used to get a similar sensitivity across different games is measuring the number of inches you have to move the mouse horizontally across the mouse pad to make a 180 degree turn.  After measuring this, you can finetune the ingame sensitivity settings in other games to give you the same number of inches for a 180 degree turn. It should be pointed out that this method is more useful for arena-style and non-military shooters without aim-down-sight (ADS) mechanics. This is because in most games, sensitivity is changed when ADS, and the extent to which sensitivity changes when ADS differs from one game to the next (and can even be dependent on FOV settings and so forth).  In those situations, I recommend fine-tuning your settings through playing the game.


« Last Edit: Sat, 20 August 2016, 15:59:54 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:50:18 »
3 List of mice without acceleration and prediction
Microsoft WMO 1.1
-Sensor: STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04
-Weight: 72 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Standard plastic. Versions with matte or glossy aftermarket coating available for purchase.
-Buttons: 3
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Slightly mushy in actuation. Does not feel as crisp as the standard omron switches found in most modern gaming mice. Some people mention that later versions have slightly better feeling switches. I myself have used many WMO 1.1 for a long time and never noticed a difference.
-Quality/ Design issues: The stock cord on the WMO is thick, heavy, and not very flexible. There can be "phantom scolling"/"scroll jump" where the mouse scrolls one click when moving it (typically WMO users unbind scroll). Often, when you slam the mouse down too hard on the mousepad after picking it up, the LMB or RMB might actuate.
-Picture:
More

The original Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical, a mouse that was produced without the intention of it being a gaming mouse. However, it has become somewhat of a classic gaming mouse. This is both due to the sensor performance, and it having no acceleration or prediction, but also because a lot of tournaments were won by well-known players with this mouse. In Quake, players like Cypher and Rapha have used it, and still used it recently to dominate Dreamhack winter 2013. In Counter Strike, a lot of players, (for example, Spawn, though not anymore) use the mouse. Another reason why people love this mouse is its extremely low weight

The downside to this mouse is that the max perfect tracking speed is rather low at only 1.0 m/s. However, it can be "overclocked" by increasing the USB sample rate, and the max perfect tracking speed increases to around 1.5 m/s when overclocked to 500Hz or more. You can find more info on how to do this here
More
. While the mouse is discontinued, original and re-coated *(but legitimate) versions continue to be available, mostly from China.

Microsoft IMO 1.1
-Sensor: STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04
-Weight: 82 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Standard plastic. Versions with matte or glossy aftermarket coating available for purchase.
-Buttons: 5 (one extra thumb button on each side)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Different switches have been used for the IMO 1.1. Before 2005 they used the d2f-01f-t. After 2005 they used the D2FC-F-7N. Both have a fairly low actuation force and soft feedback, with a subtle difference in feel.
-Quality/ Design issues: The stock cord on the IMO is thick, heavy, and not very flexible. There can be "phantom scolling"/"scroll jump" where the mouse scrolls one click when moving it (typically IMO users unbind scroll).
-Picture:
More

In many regards very similar to the WMO (same sensor, same flaws), though with side-buttons.

Microsoft IME 3.0
-Sensor: STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04
-Weight: Around 110 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Standard plastic. Versions with matte or glossy aftermarket coating available for purchase.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Different switches have been used for the IMO 1.1. Before 2005 they used the d2f-01f-t. After 2005 they used the D2FC-F-7N. Both have a fairly low actuation force and soft feedback, with a subtle difference in feel.
-Quality/ Design issues: The stock cord on the IME is thick, heavy, and not very flexible. There can be "phantom scolling"/"scroll jump" where the mouse scrolls one click when moving it (typically IME users unbind scroll).
-Picture:
More

In many regards very similar to the WMO (same sensor, same flaws), though with side-buttons, and a very different more ergonomic form factor.

Zowie FK, AM
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: AM 88 grams (without the cord). FK 85 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: AM glossy, rubberized, and rubberized with glossy sides. Glossy sides may no longer be available. FK rubberized coating.
-Buttons: 7. Only 5 available at the same time depending on which side you use.
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: The AM does not have a stress relief on the cord. While I have not seen any complaints about it yet, typically, after years of use, this leads to damage to the cord. It is not yet confirmed that this is really a problem. There was a problem with the coating of the 2014 version Zowie FK peeling off over time. However, Zowie claims these issues have been addressed 
More

-Picture: AM
More
. FK
More

These are mentioned together since they are the same sensor in a very similar shell. Zowie's implementation of the Avago ADNS 3090 gives these mice a very low lift off distance. Possibly the lowest of any mouse on the market. There has been mention of a noticeable delay on the 450 DPI setting. While some confirm the issues, others say they do not perceive anything wrong on this setting. At this moment this is still not entirely clear. 
More
To those who have experienced lag on the 450 DPI setting, an alternative would be using the 2300 DPI setting with windows setting 3/11, or the 1150 DPI setting at 4/11 which will both get you to that lower DPI (you can do further tweaking in the ingame sensitivity setting). Using a windows setting below 6/11 does not do much harm and does not cause the count skipping that you see when going  higher than 6/11. Reviews and tests show that the 2300 DPI step does come with more jitter than the other two steps, but it is not horrendous (it seems to be worse as you use a higher polling rate). Takasta's review on OCN shows the jitter at various settings in a lot of detail. It is worth pointing out that not everyone will perceive the delay on the 450 DPI step to be an issue.


Zowie FK1
-Sensor: Avago 3310
-Weight: 90 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Rubberized coating.
-Buttons: 7. Only 5 available at the same time depending on which side you use.
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: There have been complaints of some input latency occurring for clicks from the FK1. However, it is claimed this has since been fixed by Zowie.
-Picture:
More


Zowie EC1/EC2 eVo & eVo CL
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: EC1 97 grams (without the cord). EC2 93 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed). EC1 and EC2 have a similar overall shape but are different sizes (EC1 is larger)
-Coating: EC1&EC2 Evo glossy, rubberized, rubberized with glossy sides. Rubberized with glossy sides may no longer be available. EC1&EC2 CL rubberized.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: People have complained about the scroll wheel on the EC1 and EC2. There is quite a lot of "play" for the wheel to move, and this can cause a problem with scrolling not registering. While replicating the problem is easy (pinch and slightly lift the wheel, and the scroll will not register), most people do not experience any problem with normal use of the scroll wheel. There was a problem with the coating of the EC eVo CL series peeling off over time. However, Zowie claims these issues have been addressed 
More
.

-Picture: EC1 & EC2
More

These use the same sensor as the FK and AM, have a similar implementation, but a very different (ergonomic) shape.

Zowie EC1-A & EC2-A
-Sensor: Avago 3310.
-Weight: EC1-A 97 grams (without the cord). EC2-A 93 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Same rubberized coating as the zowie FK
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: Earlier this mouse exhibited the same latency when it comes to clicks as the FK1, but this has since been addressed.
-Picture:
More


Zowie ZA 11/12/13
-Sensor: Avago 3310.
-Weight: Without cord. 11: 90g, 12: 85g, 13: 80g
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Same rubberized coating as the zowie FK
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: Earlier this mouse exhibited the same latency when it comes to clicks as the FK1, but this has since been addressed.
-Picture:
More


Razer Deathadder 3G aka V1
-Sensor: Avago ADNS-S3668
-Weight: 105 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Matte textured surface, glossy sides.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The coating material used for the top of the mouse will eventually wear off. People frequently report that the side-buttons stop working (cave in) at some point, which is something that typically does not fail first on other mice.
-Picture:
More

When it first came out it had prediction. This has been fixed by Razer in a firmware that was later released.

Razer Deathadder 3.5G aka V2
-Sensor: Avago ADNS S3888
-Weight: 112 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed and left-handed version available)
-Coating: Matte textured surface with glossy sides. Also available with matte textured surface and rubberized sided, and in full glossy coating.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The coating material used for the top of the mouse will eventually wear off. This is not an issue with the "glossy" special editions. People frequently report that the side-buttons stop working (cave in) at some point, which is something that typically does not fail first on other mice.
-Picture:
More

When it was first released there was a jittering issue. This has been fixed by Razer in a firmware that was later released. The other main problem is that it has a fairly high lift off distance. This can however be addressed by the "tape fix". More information about this tape-fix can be found here
More
and here
More
. Also check out the lift off distance section in the guide here
More


Razer Deathadder 2013 aka V3 / Deathadder Chroma
-Sensor: Avago ADNS s3988
-Weight: 105 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Slightly rough matte textured surface with glossy sides. Sides have a rubber grip.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: While there are no specific issues that are often reported, it has to be said that when the deathadder 2013 came out, it was very common that people had to RMA it for different reasons. Like the mouse dying completely or developing a scroll-wheel problem. I do not know to what extent these issues have been addressed by the company, but after it had been out for a long time, complaints about the durability of the DA 2013 started to quiet down.
-Picture:
More

Note that I added the Chroma and 2013 deathadder together even though they are two separate models. When it comes to the things listed here, the two are largely the same mouse, with the same weight, same sensor and so on. The main differences are that the Chroma adds a 10k DPI option (which does not perform that well due to additional jitter), the braided cable is a little bit thinner, and the surface is slightly smoother (but still a rough textured feel comparable to the 2013 version).


Razer Abyssus
-Sensor: Avago ADNS S3888
-Weight: 68 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Matte plastic and glossy version available
-Buttons: 3
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The main problem with the abyssus concerns the sensor. It seems that some people get a good one without jitter while others do not. While it is not entirely clear how wide-spread the problem is, jitter is a frequent problem with this model.
-Picture:
More

When it was first released there was a jittering issue. Firmware can't be updated, so you need to buy a recent model. However, people have been saying that some abyssus do still have jitter.

Logitech G400
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3095
-Weight: 104 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right handed)
-Coating: Regular/smooth plastic top with matte textured plastic sides
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Many people have reported that the G400 has a common problem with the cord, where the mouse will sometimes completely stop working. The design is also without stress relief, which has caused cord problems for some, but the issue is way less common.
-Picture:
More

First generation of the Logitech G400 had prediction and another sensor (the Avago 3080E sensor). You need a PID above LZ13333 for a G400 without this problem. Here is where you can find the information you need to see whether you have a "good" version:
More


Logitech G400s
-Sensor: Avago ADNS S3095
-Weight: 109 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right handed)
-Coating: Regular/smooth plastic top with matte textured plastic sides
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the G400s.
-Picture:
More

There have been a number of people who claim that the tracking to the left and tracking to the right is slightly different for this mouse. Most G400s users seem to find that this problem is either not there, and even with careful testing they were not able to replicate it.

Logitech G303
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3366
-Weight: 87 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous shape, but right handed (buttons on one side)
-Coating: Regular/smooth plastic top with matte textured plastic sides
-Buttons: 6
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Metal spring button tensioning system that is both tactile and smooth according to users and have little travel.
-Quality/ Design issues: Many people have found that the mouse rattles when moved rapidly. Not all G303's have this problem.
-Picture:
More


Logitech G502
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3366.
-Weight: 121 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth, matte plastic. Rubber grip on both sides. 
-Buttons: 11
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: There currently is a problem that the awkwardly shaped and placed mouse feet tend to come off when used on some surfaces (more likely on those surfaces where there is more resistance, and for low sensitivity players who do long sweeps). Some people seem to have a problem with their G502 where the tracking of the mouse sometimes completely fails. A recent firmware update did not solve the problem for everyone.
-Picture:
More

Despite being an optical sensor, it has a max DPI of 12.000 and it is said that every DPI step is native (attained without interpolation). One thing that does need to be pointed out to anyone considering this mouse is that for the size of an optical mouse like this, it is quite a bit heavier than most other optical mice that it competes with.

Logitech G Pro
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3366
-Weight: 83 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Symmetrical but not entirely ambidextrous due to the side-buttons being on the left.
-Coating: Hard plastic
-Buttons: 6
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Logitech G Pro
-Picture:
More


Steelseries Kana V2
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: 88 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Available in matte plastic, and with glossy top and matte sides
-Buttons: 5 (one extra thumb button on each side)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Kana v2
-Picture:
More

Very high lift off distance that can be addressed with the tape fix. For more info regarding the tape-fix, see: Deathadder 3.5G

Mionix Avior 7000
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3310
-Weight: 100 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Rubberized coating
-Buttons: 7 (two extra thumb buttons on each side)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches. Not entirely sure which ones, I suspect the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Mionix Avoir 7000
-Picture:
More

Jitters at the higher DPI settings.

Mionix Castor
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3310
-Weight: 94 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Soft rubber coating with additional textured rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 6
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches. D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Mionix Castor
-Picture:
More


Cooler Master Storm Spawn
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090.
-Weight: 86 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth plastic coating, rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Compared to other gaming mice, the cable on the Spawn is relatively thick and inflexible.
-Picture:
More

There are some firmware issues that impact performance. The original firmware had lag when using the buttons on the mouse. Other later firmware did not improve the mouse in every way, but instead removed some issues and introduced others. The firmware versions differ in lift off distance and tracking speed for example. Later versions of firmware addressed the button lag for example, but actually introduced a lower tracking speed, and a higher lift off distance, and some people claimed it also caused noticeable smoothing. This leads some people to intentionally keep using the old firmware. The mouse tape fix works for the high lift off distance (see: Deathadder 3.5G).

Cooler Master Storm Alcor
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: 87 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Matte, slightly textured plastic UV-coating. Rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 7, but DPI buttons on the top are not programmable
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches *(not sure which model), actuation is slightly stiffer and requires a little more force than the typical Omron D2FC-F-7N switches
-Quality/ Design issues: This mouse has just been released and there has not been enough time for issues regarding durability to surface. Some things that have been mentioned but still not comfirmed are a rattling sound when moved rapidly and the scroll wheel has some play/wobble.
-Picture:
More

Like many other mice that implement this particular sensor, it suffers from a high lift off distance. This can be addressed with the tape fix, but this has been shown to cause excessive jitter at the higher DPI settings. The mouse lacks a lower DPI step (starting at 800).

Steelseries Rival
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3310
-Weight: 129 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Rubberized coating on the top, rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Not entirely certain. It is rumored they are not omron switches and they feel different (TTC switches?). Actuation force remains light, but the feedback is not as crisp or clicky. Some describe them as slightly more mushy than the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N.
-Quality/ Design issues: On some of the Rivals, LMB and RMB touch when pressed at the same time. Many people report that the mouse-wheel rattles with rapid movements.
-Picture:
More


Roccat Savu
-Sensor: Avago ADNS A3090
-Weight: 90 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Matte plastic top with very rough, grainy plastic sides.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The textured, grainy plastic coating on the sides scrubs off over time, leaving just smooth plastic.
-Picture:
More

Reported low max tracking speed on some surfaces. High lift off distance that can be addressed with the tape fix (see: Deathadder 3.5G). Noticeable jitter at the higher DPI settings.

Roccat Kone Pure Optical
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: 96 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth plastic that has a slightly rubberized feel that fades over time.
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Roccat Kone Pure Optical
-Picture:
More

High lift off distance comparable to the Savu that can be addressed with the tape fix (see: Deathadder 3.5G)

Roccat Kone Pure Military
-Sensor: Avago 3310
-Weight: around 90 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth plastic that has a slightly rubberized feel that fades over time.
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Roccat Kone Pure Military
-Picture:
More


Mad Catz R.A.T. 3 (limited information and testing available)
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-weight: 98 grams without the cord
-Shape: Ergonomic (right handed)
-Coating: Standard (slightly matte) plastic
-Buttons: 6 (including the programmable button on top)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Unclear. Supposedly it is neither Omron nor Huano, but it has a slightly more tactile feel and is slightly harder to press than than the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N switches. More information necessary.
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Mad Catz R.A.T. 3
-Picture:
More

Originally this mouse was released with a laser sensor like the other mice in the RAT series. Somewhere halfway through 2012 however, the model was updated with the Avago ADNS 3090 sensor. Because this change in sensor went largely unnoticed, not enough information about the performance of this mouse is available. I feel like this was in part due to the poor reputation of the RAT series and the Mad Catz brand in the communities that would typically do these kind of tests. The reason why it is currently on the list is because of the sensor that is used, which usually does not have any prediction or acceleration. However, that is not guarantee that the RAT3 does not have it since there are mice that implement the 3090 sensor with acceleration (Puretrak Valor). This mouse has a very high lift off distance, which is a common problem for mice implementing this sensor. While not confirmed anywhere, I am fairly certain this can be addressed with the tape fix (see: Deathadder 3.5G). Another thing to notice is that while I can not find any tests of the tracking speed of the mouse anywhere, the company (Mad Catz) themselves state that the max tracking speed is only 1.5 m/s, which is surprisingly low for a mouse using this sensor. Various sources mention that the sensor has a max tracking speed of over 2 m/s. According to Woll3 (posted in this thread) 450 and 900 steps are very inconsistent and are suffering from Pixelwalk issues, general tracking at 1800 is fine. The mouse jitters alot on 3500cpi.

Corsair M45
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3310 , this is the same as the Avago 3310 just under a different name .
-Weight: 90 grams (without the cord, without the optional weights)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Rough textured plastic on the sides. Rubberized coating on the top 
-Buttons: 7, all programmable
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches *(not sure which model). Very likely Omron D2FC-F-7N switches since these were the one used in other mice in the Corsair lineup like the M65. But this has yet to be confirmed.
-Quality/ Design issues: This mouse has just been released and there has not been enough time for issues regarding durability to surface. However, the mouse wheel could have questionable durability if the implementation is the same as in other Corsair mice (this is not confirmed for this specific model). Apart from durability issues, the mouse-wheel in previous corsair mice that seem to be using the same mold had a lot of "play" and were fairly loose. This would result in some rattle when the mouse was moved rapidly, which annoyed some users.
-Picture:
More

Noticeably more jitter at the higher DPI settings.

Finalmouse 2015
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3310 , this is the same as the Avago 3310 just under a different name .
-Weight: 74 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: glossy plastic on the sides with a rubbery kind of foam where you place your thumb. Rubberized coating on the top 
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N
-Quality/ Design issues: There are complaints from users criticizing the side buttons of the mouse. They are said to feel loose and rattle when the mouse is moved rapidly. Another thing frequently mentioned is that people do not like the way they are shaped. Many people feel like the overall build quality is not up to par when compared to the major brands.
-Picture:
More



« Last Edit: Sat, 20 August 2016, 16:18:34 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:50:58 »
4 Discussion : Mouse characteristics

4.1 Sensor positioning
Normally, the sensor of the mouse is positioned somewhere near the center. There are some mice however, where the sensor is not located in the center of the mouse. While not necessarily a bad thing, this could take some getting used to, as it affects how hand and wrist movement are translated to cursor movement. For example, when the cursor is placed further towards the front, this makes cursor movement feel more exaggerated. When rotating the wrist a sensor that is closer to the palm of the hand will travel a shorter distance than a sensor that is placed closer to the fingertips. While it is perfectly possible to adjust to a different sensor location and this happens largely intuitively, some people feel that they would rather use a peripheral that is compatible with the muscle memory they have built up over the years.

4.2 Mouse-feet
Generally, there are 3 types of mouse-feet that we commonly see: PTFE (Teflon), UHMWPE, and Regular plastic mouse feet. Most modern gaming mice come with Teflon mouse feet. This is generally regarded as the best material for mousefeet for having the best glide (causing the least amount of friction between the mouse and the mousepad), as well as having decent durability.
 
UHMWPE is a cheaper alternative to Teflon. It is not cheaper because of a shorter or simpler production process, but due to the cost of one of the main raw materials used to make PTFE. UHMWPE is a material that is almost as slick as PTFE. Theoretically, it is more durable than PTFE, and one of the most wear resistant materials in the plastic family.  UHMWPE is used by some popular mouse manufacturers such as Steelseries, who refer to it as UPE.

Outside of the material used there are other factors that can improve glide of the mouse. Shape, size and thickness of the mouse feet play a role. Any shape with sharp rather than soft rounded edges tends to cause more friction. When it comes to size, it is a trade off. Increasing the size of the mouse-feet improves the glide by distributing the weight over a larger area, but when the surface that is in contact with the mouse-pad is too large, the increased friction reduces the smoothness of the glide. In practice, mouse feet are often too small, and rarely too large. Thickness of the mousefeet plays a role because it creates clearance between the mouse and the mousepad, making sure that only the mouse-feet touch the pad. Some popular model mice do not have enough clearance with their stock feet, and friction is caused because part of the bottom of the mouse is constantly dragged across the surface. Thicker mouse-feet also last longer, and can take more wear before they have to be replaced. Additionally, thicker mouse-feet could help reduce the lift of distance of a mouse, as it increases the distance from the sensor to the surface (and therefore decreases the distance the mouse needs to be lifted to stop tracking).

There are aftermarket mouse-feet available for most popular models of mice. One inexpensive way people sometimes improve the glide with subpar stock mouse feet is to actually cover them with a strip of PTFE tape or UHMWPE tape. When applied properly, this can greatly reduce friction when stock feet do not provide the glide that the user requires.

4.3 Scroll-wheel
There are two types of scroll-wheels that are used: Optical and Mechanical.  The optical scroll-wheel uses an optical encoder. I believe there are several types available, but basically there is a LED that has its light pointed at a detector. Scrolling causes small pins to pass through the light from the LED. When they do, it gives a signal of both the direction and how many “steps” the wheel has been scrolled. A mechanical scroll wheel uses a mechanical encoder. Again, several different types, such as TTC and Alps encoders are available with slightly different properties. Scrolling the wheel triggers a mechanical switch registering both the steps and direction of the scroll.

There is no clear winner in terms of functionality between the mechanical and optical scroll wheel. They do however differ in feel. Some people prefer mechanical scroll wheels, which typically provide a little more resistance and almost tactile feel from one click to the next. Others prefer optical scroll wheels, which often have less resistance and provide a smoother scroll. It should be pointed out that when it comes to durability, the exact implementation and design of the mouse and mouse-wheel is usually more important than whether or not the wheel is optical or mechanical, and which specific encoder is used.

Other noticeable characteristics of a scroll-wheel are the number of steps that are on the wheel. Some wheels come with many steps, resulting in less travel of the wheel necessary to go from one step to the next. This makes using the wheel feel more fluid. Other wheels have fewer steps, and the wheel needs to travel further to go from one step to the next. Again, which one is best here is personal preference, and depending on how you intend to use the scroll wheel. Some people like having fewer steps, creating more distinct individual steps that can be used more accurately. Others like the smoothness of scrolling made available by having more steps, especially when used for common tasks outside of games.

Finally there is the shape and material of the scroll-wheel that could be taken into consideration.  Again, it is personal preference that is important here. However, in general people prefer wheels that provide some sort of grip (either through material used or some kind of indentations), to wheels that are completely slick.

4.4 Cord
A common trend in mice is the inclusion of a braided cord-sleeve. However, not everyone views the inclusion of a braided cord as a positive thing. In some cases the braided cord-sleeves are less flexible than cords that are only protected by a soft plastic. Additionally, some braided cord-sleeves cause more friction with the surface the mouse is used on, making the user experience more “drag”. It should be pointed out that this does not mean that plastic cables are always better. Not all plastic cables are flexible, nor all braided sleeves inflexible. Some braided sleeves have a finer pattern that creates less friction, and some plastic cables create a lot of friction when combined with specific surfaces.

Most manufacturers advertize that the inclusion of a braided cord is to increase durability. However, braided cord-sleeves that started to fray have become a common complaint  for some models of mice, leading some people to believe that at least some braided cord-sleeves are actually more susceptible to damage than plastic ones. Durability of cords can be, and has been, an issue with some mice before braided cord-sleeves came around. However, these issues were usually not related to how well the wires in the cord were protected by the cord-sleeve (even if they were, it was often due to a design mistake, such as the lack of a stress-relief on the cord). You can question whether an increase in cord-sleeve durability was ever something we really needed.

4.5 Weight
Mice come in many different shapes and sizes. But not only the shape, but also the weight of a mouse plays a large part in how the mouse feels. Some mice even come with “adjustable weights”, usually containing some sort of cartridge that can hold weights and that can be placed in the mouse.

Like most other characteristics of the mouse, personal preference plays a role here. Playstyle is also important. Someone with a low sensitivity typically lifts his mouse frequently, constantly sweeping it over large distances. It is no coincidence that such players often prefer lighter mice, as this makes these actions easier to perform.  Someone who plays at a higher sensitivity however, cares more about the accuracy of his small movements. A heavier mouse could provide a little more resistance, and needs more force to be moved, allowing the user to avoid any unintentional movement of the mouse. One alternative to this however, might be to use a surface that creates more friction with the mouse. This way it is possible to use a lighter mouse, maintaining the benefits of a light mouse, while keeping the kind of control that you associate with a heavier mouse. When it comes to weight, many people feel strongly that mice should be as light as possible.

But it is not only the number of grams that matters when it comes to weight. What also matters is how weight is distributed over the mouse.  This can drastically alter the feel of a mouse, especially for those who pick up the mouse a lot. For example, there are some models of mice where the bulk of the weight is located in the back of the mouse. People who tend to lift the mouse by putting pressure on the sides of the mouse near the front find such a weight distribution awkward to use, as it pulls the back of the mouse back to the surface. This is also where adjustable weights sometimes create a problem, as they can cause weight to become more clustered in one area of the mouse.

4.6 Coating
While there are many coatings available, they can be generally divided in 4 categories: Smooth plastic, Textured plastic, Rubberized, and Glossy coating.

There is no one best option here. Which coating works out for a user is dependent on number of things such as ambient temperature, perspiration, oiliness of the skin, grip style as well as individual preference. While most people can get used to Smooth and Textured plastic, experiences with Glossy and Rubberized coatings differ wildly. Overall, completely dry hands and very sweaty hands will both have trouble with any kind of coating, as both cause a lack of  friction between the skin and any surface material. However, glossy coatings are generally a very good option for hands that tend to be dry, while rubberized surfaces can work for both dry and wet hands depending on user preferences.

4.7 Side-Buttons
While companies usually advertize with the switches that are used in the main mouse button (LMB and RMB), it is often harder to figure out what kind of switches are used for the other buttons on the mouse.

Similar to switches in the LMB and RMB, Omron switches are generally considered the “golden standard” here as well. However, the majority of producers opt for cheaper alternatives when it comes to the side buttons and the scroll-wheel click. Typically they use a switch without the crisp distinct feel associated with the Omron switches. However, there is not always a trade-off in durability when the cheaper switches are used, as the modern cheaper switches are often rated for a similar number of clicks as the omrons (if the information given by the manufacturer is to be believed). An example and perhaps the most common among those cheaper alternatives are the TTC switches like the TTC 159. They are found in many modern mice, in many different brands.

Regardless of the switches used, even more so than for the LMB and RMB, the design of the mouse determines how they feel. Things that affect how pleasant they are to use are actuation force, size, location, travel and feedback. When it comes to side-buttons, people seem to pretty much universally agree that they prefer a light actuation. All mice that have a stiffness to their side-buttons are criticized for it. The amount of travel before actuation occurs seems to be less of an issue, as some very popular models have a relatively long travel and it seems to be rarely mentioned or changed in different iterations of the model.


5 Software
-Enotus mouse test: Allows you to check your mouse's max tracking speed, DPI as well as polling rate
More

-Mouse Rate: Allows you to accurately measure your mouse's polling rate
More

-Mouse Movement Recorder: Displays movement registered by the mouse's sensor and movement of the cursor on the screen. Also gives an approximation of the polling rate
More

-Outerspace's Max IPS logger: Allows you to see your max tracking speeds and detect acceleration
More
or
More
. Please note that these two links have not yet been verified.
-Mouse Click Response Speed Testing Software: Allows you to test the response time of your mouse's LMB and RMB clicks
More

-microe1's MouseTester: Do not know too much about this software. Written by an OCN member
More

- Microsoft Paint: Drawing lines in paint allows you to easily detect jitter and prediction
More
It comes with windows dummy. Any alternative similarly functioning application will also work


6 References
- Overview of mouse technology by wo1fwood on the teamliquid.net forums http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648
- Overview of mice and their sensors, which was the starting point of this thread on ESreality by Wata, which you can find at http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663
- Gaming mouse sensor list by woll3 on OCN http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list

Some of the information in the references will overlap with the information provided in this thread. More useful references will be added.

Please note
This is a work in progress, and therefore not all mice worthy of consideration are included in this list nor is the description of mice complete.

Things to be done:
-Update the information on some of the mice now that they have been out for a while and we know more about them.
-Add specific info for each mouse in the list, such as weight, number of buttons, ergonomic or not,  etc.
-Add information about the switches used in the mouse (omron, huano etc.)
-Add the1onewolf suggestion. Adding known and consistent quality and design issues for each mouse.
-Add information about the specific problems of popular laser sensors.
-Add general information about mice such as DPI/CPI, polling rate
-Add instructions for how to calculate sensitivity
-Add more information about whether a mouse has been used in competitive play (this will be limited to Counter Strike and Quake)
-Add graphical representations of described issues with mice
-Add information about software you can use to test your mouse on a number of the criteria
-Add discussion about physical mouse characteristics, such as the materials used for the feet, materials used for the coating (glossy, rubberized etc.) or the cable (braided/non-braided, thickness etc.)
-Add mice that should be included. (*this is ongoing. The list does not always contain all the mice that should be on there, but will eventually be updated to include them)

Acknowledgement
There have been a ton of contributors to this guide. So many in fact, that it would not be fair to include only a few of them. So I decided to make a general acknowledgement instead. The way you should view this guide, is really just as a compilation of information made available by many different individuals that share the same enthusiasm for mice and PC peripherals. Communities like Teamliquid, SK gaming, OCN, Geekhack and ESR provided a valuable resource that made it possible to "assemble" this guide.

« Last Edit: Mon, 05 October 2015, 03:09:44 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:51:17 »
reserved
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:51:31 »
reserved
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:51:43 »
reserved
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 17:31:43 »
I messed up in the original topic by not reserving enough posts. Because of this I started to exceed the max number of characters allowed. Therefore I had to make a new topic and lock the old one.

I added a "discussion: Mouse characteristics" section that will be expanded in the future. There are also a number of other things that I plan to add in the not so distant future.
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 March 2014, 18:49:35 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Novus

  • Formerly the1onewolf
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1593
  • Mondai nothing~
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 20:49:07 »
Sweet!
Glad to see the upgraded version of this thread.
Keep up the good work!

Offline davkol

  • Posts: 4390
  • Location: CZ
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 24 March 2014, 10:46:06 »
I've just noticed you discuss CM Storm Spawn's firmware issues above. Have you taken the latest update into account? Speaking of that (the spawn has been discontinued in Europe due to bad reputation probably caused by the firmware), do you plan to mention availability of each mouse?
keyboards: ErgoDox (80key, Massdrop #1 PCB, FalbaTech compact PVC case); Noppoo Choc Mini (2012, black); Phantom (7bit); QFR (2012, ANSI, Frosty Flake); TypeMatrix 2030 (USB)… (and a large collection)
pointing devices: Kensington Slimblade trackball; left-handed Hippus Handshoe mouse; Roccat KPM; Roccat Lua; Logitech M570 (switch swap); Wacom pen-enabled digitizer… (and a large collection)
notable past keyboards: Access-IS AKE120807/1/M, ErgoDox (stock Massdrop #1), Kinesis Advantage, Lenovo SK-8855, LiteOn SK-6000, Logitech UltraX, SteelSeries 6Gv2
preferred keys: linear switches (e.g., vintage MX Black w/ 78g springs) and thick Cherry POM keycaps
touch typed in Colemak

Offline Skull_Angel

  • Posts: 329
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:31:44 »
I was wondering why the last thread got locked; glad to see you're expanding it!

I've also heard some people toss around rumors of the S9808 (used in Logitech's new S labeled laser mice) having no acceleration; is anyone able to confirm or deny that? I haven't be able to fish up any conclusive info on the matter, but am rather pessimistic about it.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:21:44 »
Thanks for the support!

I was wondering why the last thread got locked; glad to see you're expanding it!

I've also heard some people toss around rumors of the S9808 (used in Logitech's new S labeled laser mice) having no acceleration; is anyone able to confirm or deny that? I haven't be able to fish up any conclusive info on the matter, but am rather pessimistic about it.

I think every mouse enthusiast is always looking to check whether the newest laser sensors from Avago still suffer from acceleration. This is the first time I hear that the s9808 does not suffer from acceleration. A quick google search shows me that there are a hand full of people making that claim, but this is not backed up anywhere in any sort of test, or with any sort of theoretical explanation of how the sensor avoids the acceleration problems present in the rest of the series. I believe that possibly this is due to a misinterpretation of Takasta's review of the new Logitech "S" series mice on OCN, where he addresses and applauds the sensor performance of the Avago S9808, but specifically does not test for acceleration.

Others have found that the acceleration is present in all the Avago 9500-98XX sensors to date. Skylit, one of the more knowledgeable mouse experts at OCN maintains that all cmos based sensors have an inherent form of acceleration. Though I will not pretend to know exactly how that works, as I usually go by testing results. There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence of people claiming the G500s still has acceleration, though I never put too much stock into that. Consensus is still that the Avago 98XX series of sensors have acceleration, and I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise. But it is something that is worth keeping an eye on as the implementation of laser sensors progresses.

I've just noticed you discuss CM Storm Spawn's firmware issues above. Have you taken the latest update into account? Speaking of that (the spawn has been discontinued in Europe due to bad reputation probably caused by the firmware), do you plan to mention availability of each mouse?

I followed the discussion up to v102 and am aware of the release of the v201 firmware, which seems to be some kind of compromise of the characteristics of earlier firmware versions. The discussion of performance of any specific firmware is beyond the depth of the guide (though if a version is released that addresses any issue, it would have to of course be pointed out), and not something I am keen on following. The indication that firmware matters and there are different versions which differ in performance still describes the firmware situation of the CM Storm Spawn.

I have thought about adding availability in some way. But this might not be as straightforward as it might appear. Availability is different in many different regions (for example, not just Europe, but different parts of Europe), and it is hard to figure out the availability of some products in some regions (Asia). Furthermore, there are a lot of discontinued products that are still widely available outside of the traditional retail channels (for example WMO and previous version of deathadders on Ebay as well as a few other places), and in practice availability is often dependent on someone's willingness to import, which could in turn be dependent on how their country's customs deals with importing these kinds of things. Because of all this I find it hard to offer accurate, up to date, and reliable information regarding availability, and feel that people are probably better off checking the availability in their region themselves. What I could do however is add for each mouse whether they are still in production, and if not, whether I am aware if they are still sold anywhere.

Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline protti

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: San Francisco Bay Area
  • o.O
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 26 March 2014, 05:56:45 »
Wow, what a valuable resource. I'm new here (only been a member for a few days - lurked for a few months prior), and one of the reasons I took the leap and made an account was for insight like this - there seem to be quite a few dedicated & just generally knowledgeable . It wasn't just for discussing and planning my next keyboard, but also because I'm in dire need of a new mouse and have no clue what the landscape is like anymore since it's been 5 years since my last purchase.

Need to buy two mice...the one I prefer will be the primary gaming mouse. Have used only the SteelSeries Xai since 2009 (bought two of them a few weeks before the Sensei came out), before that I used the Logitech G5 & mx518.

- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

I know I have plenty of other questions that will resurface in my mind here shortly.  Thanks again for your help.
WTB:
- leopold fc660m &/or leopold fc700r
- any full sets for an fc660m
- half life keycap/counter-strike keycap(s)
- kt rolster keycap [a SC2 team - saw one listed on eBay for a moment...haven't seen it since]

geekhack community CS:GO team? PM ME :D

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 26 March 2014, 17:02:53 »
Wow, what a valuable resource. I'm new here (only been a member for a few days - lurked for a few months prior), and one of the reasons I took the leap and made an account was for insight like this - there seem to be quite a few dedicated & just generally knowledgeable . It wasn't just for discussing and planning my next keyboard, but also because I'm in dire need of a new mouse and have no clue what the landscape is like anymore since it's been 5 years since my last purchase.

Need to buy two mice...the one I prefer will be the primary gaming mouse. Have used only the SteelSeries Xai since 2009 (bought two of them a few weeks before the Sensei came out), before that I used the Logitech G5 & mx518.

- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

I know I have plenty of other questions that will resurface in my mind here shortly.  Thanks again for your help.

First of all welcome to Geekhack !

Second, thanks for your kind words about the guide. I hope to improve and expand it over time.

Third, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Regarding your first question, the only answer I can give is that there is really no general rule about which kind of mice (shape and size) work best for these kind of games. To take the competitive scene as an example, we have seen plenty of players who use larger mice, and plenty of players who use smaller mice. We have even seen a lot of players switch between completely different style mice. 2 examples that you know are probably Neo and SpawN. Both of them switched styles of mice. Spawn had used the WMO (small, ambidextrous, super light) and the deathadder (large, ergonomic, reasonably heavy). Another example are NIP. You can find the hardware they use on their website. It was recently updated and a couple of their members now play with the Rival (large, ergonomic, heavy) where they previously used mice like the Kinzu ( I think GeT_RiGhT and F0rest did, though I do not know exactly by heart). I am telling you all this not because I believe that people should do whatever the "pro's" do (since their choice is heavily influenced by sponsorship), but just to indicate that very different styles of mice can compete at the highest level, which probably means you are free to choose whatever you prefer. I should also point out (to be fair) that while different styles of mice are used, there is a slight trend in the competitive scene of players favoring smaller, lighter mice.

To answer the second question, the other thing you should be looking for (outside of shape, size etc.) is performance. What does performance mean when it comes to mice sensors? The answer to that question is pretty much this entire guide. I hope that it will give you a good starting point to find out what kind of characteristics are desirable in a mouse, what the things are that you would probably want to avoid, and which mice have a sensor that performs well. People give a lot of attention to acceleration and prediction, and they are generally detested, but there are other aspects of tracking that are just as important. Of course, personal preference and the way a mouse simply feels in your hand plays a large role too that is not to be ignored.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 March 2014, 17:09:31 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline mr2009

  • Posts: 11
  • Location: malaysia
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 30 March 2014, 19:19:53 »
Nice article. Madcatz R.A.T.3 is using ZHIJ switches for left and right button.

Offline protti

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: San Francisco Bay Area
  • o.O
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 30 March 2014, 23:58:36 »

First of all welcome to Geekhack !

Second, thanks for your kind words about the guide. I hope to improve and expand it over time.

Third, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Regarding your first question, the only answer I can give is that there is really no general rule about which kind of mice (shape and size) work best for these kind of games. To take the competitive scene as an example, we have seen plenty of players who use larger mice, and plenty of players who use smaller mice. We have even seen a lot of players switch between completely different style mice. 2 examples that you know are probably Neo and SpawN. Both of them switched styles of mice. Spawn had used the WMO (small, ambidextrous, super light) and the deathadder (large, ergonomic, reasonably heavy). Another example are NIP. You can find the hardware they use on their website. It was recently updated and a couple of their members now play with the Rival (large, ergonomic, heavy) where they previously used mice like the Kinzu ( I think GeT_RiGhT and F0rest did, though I do not know exactly by heart). I am telling you all this not because I believe that people should do whatever the "pro's" do (since their choice is heavily influenced by sponsorship), but just to indicate that very different styles of mice can compete at the highest level, which probably means you are free to choose whatever you prefer. I should also point out (to be fair) that while different styles of mice are used, there is a slight trend in the competitive scene of players favoring smaller, lighter mice.

To answer the second question, the other thing you should be looking for (outside of shape, size etc.) is performance. What does performance mean when it comes to mice sensors? The answer to that question is pretty much this entire guide. I hope that it will give you a good starting point to find out what kind of characteristics are desirable in a mouse, what the things are that you would probably want to avoid, and which mice have a sensor that performs well. People give a lot of attention to acceleration and prediction, and they are generally detested, but there are other aspects of tracking that are just as important. Of course, personal preference and the way a mouse simply feels in your hand plays a large role too that is not to be ignored.

Appreciate the response Grim - I have to admit I felt awkward even asking my first question about which 2 or 3 mice might work best for twitch-based FPS games because that question comes up a lot from 14 year old gamers that thing it's as simple or black and white as that. Hopefully you understood that I really meant given your knowledge of mice and the need for quickness/precision over all else (in FPS) which mice MIGHT work best on paper in that situation.

So thanks for answering that because it was a tough question haha.

Interesting points about SpawN/Neo switching from two different styles. I think that's important to note...but also makes me wonder if it's because they are two of the greatest gamers ever that they were able to adjust to two different types of mouse, or if it really doesn't make a huge difference.

As for my decision, I'm now stuck between the SteelSeries Rival, Roccat Kone Pure & Zowie FK. The Rival really only because I'm comfortable with the products made by this brand and I've had the chance to use it for a few minutes. The Kone Pure really just a gut feeling: I feel from the pictures I like  the angles and would likely enjoy the feel. The Zowie FK i've also used for a few minutes of aim mapping and I enjoyed it *seriously a few minutes though means almost nothing*

I'll probably spend another day weighing options and doing a bit more research before just pulling the trigger on something - it's getting to the point where my brain is just fried. Maybe I'll buy 2.
WTB:
- leopold fc660m &/or leopold fc700r
- any full sets for an fc660m
- half life keycap/counter-strike keycap(s)
- kt rolster keycap [a SC2 team - saw one listed on eBay for a moment...haven't seen it since]

geekhack community CS:GO team? PM ME :D

Online Bucake

  • Posts: 842
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 01:11:09 »
I have to admit I felt awkward even asking my first question about which 2 or 3 mice might work best for twitch-based FPS games because that question comes up a lot from 14 year old gamers that thing it's as simple or black and white as that. Hopefully you understood that I really meant given your knowledge of mice and the need for quickness/precision over all else (in FPS) which mice MIGHT work best on paper in that situation.

Interesting points about SpawN/Neo switching from two different styles. I think that's important to note...but also makes me wonder if it's because they are two of the greatest gamers ever that they were able to adjust to two different types of mouse, or if it really doesn't make a huge difference.

i feel the same way when asking questions like that, but the truth is that i do not think we should ;p
mice are actually a difficult subject as i've come to understand and, besides, when it comes to doing your research you have to start somewhere.
doing research works alot better when you get a few recommendations so you can look up the differences between those mice, which tends to hook you up with some valuable information (as in realising what factors are to be considered). recognising and then asking knowledge people for advice is a great start.

although i am not quite done with educating myself on mice, the three most important things i've come to understand is that there is no perfect (or even flawless) mouse, that you should not blindly follow other(pro) gamers and that it's all subjective in the end.

great gamers will adapt to most mice because they are incredibly experienced and often talented as well. a pro gamer destroying you with a certain mouse will not say much about the mouse but more about the player.
certain things like acceleration are typically said to be something to be avoided, but there are plenty of pro(!) gamers using mice with acceleration. facts like this just show that (good) gamers have a great capacity to adapt and also to get used to whatever hardware they use.
if you have the motivation to get great at a game, then you could do it with a bad mouse.

that said, it seems like it's a matter of choosing between evils. if you search well enough, you will find that every mouse has something that's wrong with it. but just because a mouse has a certain flaw just does not mean that you can not perform fantasticly with it.

i do believe it is very useful to look at what mice are being used by pro gamers (within your genre), but you really should realise that almost every one of them gets paid to use certain products.
and, like i said, most are able to adapt to most mice (unless they are just seriously crappy).

obviously there are definitely better sensors and better mice (in an objective sense) but the truth is that you might actually perform better with an objectively worse mouse.
i suggest you read up on mice until you get absolutely sick of it, before you purchase anything. unless you are rich. in that case; buy everything.

TLDR: you will not find a perfect/flawless mouse (in the objective sense). do not blindly follow pro gamers. 'the perfect mouse' is a matter of subjectiveness. if you care about good peripherals then keep doing research until you get sick of it.

PS: there are a bunch of threads/people on overclock.net with a seemingly infinite amount of knowledge and experience. if you really care about your hardware, then i suggest you look around on those forums as well. i have found that especially Skylit, r0ach and Berserker1 on those forums have an insane amount of valuable information.

Thanks alot for your thread, Grim. You've created a great source of information.
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 March 2014, 01:17:07 by Bucake »
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline protti

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: San Francisco Bay Area
  • o.O
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 03:48:17 »

i feel the same way when asking questions like that, but the truth is that i do not think we should ;p
mice are actually a difficult subject as i've come to understand and, besides, when it comes to doing your research you have to start somewhere.
doing research works alot better when you get a few recommendations so you can look up the differences between those mice, which tends to hook you up with some valuable information (as in realising what factors are to be considered). recognising and then asking knowledge people for advice is a great start.

although i am not quite done with educating myself on mice, the three most important things i've come to understand is that there is no perfect (or even flawless) mouse, that you should not blindly follow other(pro) gamers and that it's all subjective in the end.

great gamers will adapt to most mice because they are incredibly experienced and often talented as well. a pro gamer destroying you with a certain mouse will not say much about the mouse but more about the player.
certain things like acceleration are typically said to be something to be avoided, but there are plenty of pro(!) gamers using mice with acceleration. facts like this just show that (good) gamers have a great capacity to adapt and also to get used to whatever hardware they use.
if you have the motivation to get great at a game, then you could do it with a bad mouse.

that said, it seems like it's a matter of choosing between evils. if you search well enough, you will find that every mouse has something that's wrong with it. but just because a mouse has a certain flaw just does not mean that you can not perform fantasticly with it.

i do believe it is very useful to look at what mice are being used by pro gamers (within your genre), but you really should realise that almost every one of them gets paid to use certain products.
and, like i said, most are able to adapt to most mice (unless they are just seriously crappy).

obviously there are definitely better sensors and better mice (in an objective sense) but the truth is that you might actually perform better with an objectively worse mouse.
i suggest you read up on mice until you get absolutely sick of it, before you purchase anything. unless you are rich. in that case; buy everything.

TLDR: you will not find a perfect/flawless mouse (in the objective sense). do not blindly follow pro gamers. 'the perfect mouse' is a matter of subjectiveness. if you care about good peripherals then keep doing research until you get sick of it.

PS: there are a bunch of threads/people on overclock.net with a seemingly infinite amount of knowledge and experience. if you really care about your hardware, then i suggest you look around on those forums as well. i have found that especially Skylit, r0ach and Berserker1 on those forums have an insane amount of valuable information.

Thanks alot for your thread, Grim. You've created a great source of information.

Bukake - Thanks for the post. Lots of really great points backed up with some sound, rational thought...that's always a good thing :)

The part that really resonated with me was in regards to the research/selection process: far too often I feel I'm making a decision based on negativities/imperfections rather than positivity/usefulness for my needs. And you're right, especially with hardware like mice there will always be something "wrong" even with your ideal model.

I too also survey what mice pro Counter-Strike (my competitive game of choice) players are using, however I only use that info within the context of their sponsor's brand. For example:
- One of the best CS:GO teams in the world, NiP, is sponsored by SteelSeries. Let's say of the five total players, four use the Rival and 1 uses the Sensei. And let's also say that we found out that two months prior, two players were using the Rival and three were using the Sensei (meaning that recently two of the players that were still using the Sensei had switched to the Rival).

I would use that type of hypothetical information to possibly give me insight into a particular brand's (SteelSeries) product line as it relates to a specific game ONLY (CS:GO). But I would never look at the fact that all five players use a SteelSeries mouse and think wow are maybe the best team in the world so SteelSeries mice must be better than all other brands...of course not, I may be dumb, but I'm not that blind  ;D

Your post did however remind me of one area I need to explore and that's pertaining to mouse sensors. Sensors, their quality and how they function w/in the mouse seems like an important area, and I have essentially zero knowledge of it.

Great post Bucake thanks for chiming in <3. I love having civil discussions like this that help me learn and subsequently make better decisions.
WTB:
- leopold fc660m &/or leopold fc700r
- any full sets for an fc660m
- half life keycap/counter-strike keycap(s)
- kt rolster keycap [a SC2 team - saw one listed on eBay for a moment...haven't seen it since]

geekhack community CS:GO team? PM ME :D

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 06:31:05 »
Added the Corsair M45 to the list.

This mouse follows a trend that we see in many brands now. While there are the flagship models with all the bells and whistles, brands like Mionix, Cooler Master, Corsair, Steelseries etc. all seem to be adding "enthusiast mice" to their line up to appeal to those people who care most about sensor performance. It seems like more and more people are becoming aware of the differences in tracking quality between mice. Some brands like Zowie make their money appealing to only this market, but the bigger brands are now also taking part.
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Online Bucake

  • Posts: 842
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 15:58:20 »
far too often I feel I'm making a decision based on negativities/imperfections rather than positivity/usefulness for my needs.

that's fine! that one flaw in a mouse might just weigh more than those 99 positive things about it.

Quote
Your post did however remind me of one area I need to explore and that's pertaining to mouse sensors.

i hope you have a strong stomach :D

also, just to make you feel more confident: considering hardware that's used by pro players is typically a good thing. there are exceptions, as always, but generally speaking you can assume that mice used by pro quake/cs:go players are good mice. sponsors can't afford to make absolute crap because their teams/players have to stay at top level, while using their products.
of course not every mouse would do the trick for you, but i'm sure there are a bunch out there that would.

and since i somehow forgot to reply to your initial post: the zowie fk, razer deathadder (specifically  the 2013 version) and the logitech g400 are (still) popular mice in the quake and cs:go scenes.
i have seen people say that the older version of the deathadder has a 'more responsive' sensor so, if you consider that mouse, look around a bit for more info on it.
if you liked your g5/g518 in terms of weight/shape, then the g400 would not fail you. i've read that the g400 is superior to the g400s, so keep that in mind if you're thinking of buying one. you can read some more about the specifics of it here. i believe it has to do with the firmware.
there have been quite some reports on the zowie fk about the (troublesome) coating, but not everyone has this issue with the mouse. i, unfortunately, also experience some 'loss of grip' when using the zowie fk (this is why i switched to the g400).

it seems that things like weight, shape and coating/materials on a mouse can make people percieve one mouse(sensor) to be more responsive than others. placement of sensor and liftoff distance also matter.

what's unfortunate for guys like us is that there isn't really an actual way to test how responsive or accurate a sensor really is.
because in between input and output is also firmware and your whole computer(!). first of all: 'bad firmware' can nullify the potential of a great sensor. secondly: alot of things on your own computer (like the settings in your BIOS, services/software which are running and drivers) can cause input lag. so; when someone says a mouse is laggy, it just might be something that's somewhere between the sensor and what he sees happening on his monitor.
personally, i just keep on reading (on forums) until i 'bump into someone' who seems to know what he's talking about. i think user-experience really is our best friend here. but the more i learn about mice, the harder it becomes to trust anyone who talks about them.. [/pessimistic] :D

It seems like more and more people are becoming aware of the differences in tracking quality between mice. Some brands like Zowie make their money appealing to only this market, but the bigger brands are now also taking part.

it does indeed seem like this is the case :j i hope to see alot of evolving the next few years.
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:10:08 by Bucake »
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline davkol

  • Posts: 4390
  • Location: CZ
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:10:20 »
BTW are the complaints about over-the-top smoothing in mice with A3090 w/ 4000dpi ROM worth including? Personally, I think those people are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking and need to get a life, but whatever...
keyboards: ErgoDox (80key, Massdrop #1 PCB, FalbaTech compact PVC case); Noppoo Choc Mini (2012, black); Phantom (7bit); QFR (2012, ANSI, Frosty Flake); TypeMatrix 2030 (USB)… (and a large collection)
pointing devices: Kensington Slimblade trackball; left-handed Hippus Handshoe mouse; Roccat KPM; Roccat Lua; Logitech M570 (switch swap); Wacom pen-enabled digitizer… (and a large collection)
notable past keyboards: Access-IS AKE120807/1/M, ErgoDox (stock Massdrop #1), Kinesis Advantage, Lenovo SK-8855, LiteOn SK-6000, Logitech UltraX, SteelSeries 6Gv2
preferred keys: linear switches (e.g., vintage MX Black w/ 78g springs) and thick Cherry POM keycaps
touch typed in Colemak

Online Bucake

  • Posts: 842
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:21:14 »
BTW are the complaints about over-the-top smoothing in mice with A3090 w/ 4000dpi ROM worth including? Personally, I think those people are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking and need to get a life, but whatever...

i think it should, for the sake of completeness of the guide.
those who do not care can simply discard the information, and those who care can read up on it and then decide for themselves if they let it be a factor in their choice.

i'd say it would be fine to keep it short and even to claim it as uncertain, but i do think it should be mentioned.
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:23:37 by Bucake »
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 02 April 2014, 05:15:04 »
BTW are the complaints about over-the-top smoothing in mice with A3090 w/ 4000dpi ROM worth including? Personally, I think those people are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking and need to get a life, but whatever...

I agree that when put into perspective, the problem is minor compared to all the other ways in which a sensor can be flawed. I know that most people will not even notice it. I just acknowledge that it is there, and include it because people complain about it pretty consistently. Though I am not sure to what extent people are really reporting their own findings and to what extent they are parroting others.

In the section about smoothing, I mention that most people will not be able to perceive the delay associated with smoothing. It is kind of hard to put these kind of things in the right perspective. On the one hand you want to include all the information you have on sensor performance. On the other, it is hard give an indication of how noticeable or problematic any issue will be. Some flaws make a mouse really a pain to use, while others can hardly be noticed even when looking for it. I will think about whether I want to keep this smoothing information in the guide. I have also not been perfectly consistent with adding info about smoothing for every mouse where smoothing is an issue, partly because this is such a delicate, sometimes barely susceptible thing for which it is hard to find any solid info (whether a mouse suffers from it or not).
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 April 2014, 05:19:14 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 06:21:13 »
Just added a 4.7 Side-Buttons section.

It is not great, as I just typed up whatever info I could think of. However, I felt like I should add something to the guide every once in a while even when I do not have the time to really add anything significant. There are still things I plan to add in the future, and of course, the guide will be updated as mice are released.
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Online Bucake

  • Posts: 842
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 12:47:47 »
Just added a 4.7 Side-Buttons section.

It is not great, as I just typed up whatever info I could think of. However, I felt like I should add something to the guide every once in a while even when I do not have the time to really add anything significant. There are still things I plan to add in the future, and of course, the guide will be updated as mice are released.

nice!

but where is the G502? :D it's an important mouse, you should definitely add it when you have some time available.
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline feizor

  • Posts: 896
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 16:48:47 »
Very detailed list! Has zowie fixed the peeling coating issue on the fk? I'm looking to pick one up.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 18:41:24 »
Just added a 4.7 Side-Buttons section.

It is not great, as I just typed up whatever info I could think of. However, I felt like I should add something to the guide every once in a while even when I do not have the time to really add anything significant. There are still things I plan to add in the future, and of course, the guide will be updated as mice are released.

nice!

but where is the G502? :D it's an important mouse, you should definitely add it when you have some time available.

Yeah, I am keeping an eye on the G502! I plan to add it later. We are slowly learning more about the mouse and its sensor, and the first in depth reviews I have seen were only from last month. I will give it a little time and see what kind of feedback it gets and whether any problems surface. But expect it to be added later this month.

Very detailed list! Has zowie fixed the peeling coating issue on the fk? I'm looking to pick one up.

The coating issue has been fixed:
http://www.zowiegear.com/index.php?i=news&p=57

Try to avoid buying from an old batch. I would personally order directly from Zowie if you have to opportunity, just to make sure. I will add this in the guide.

« Last Edit: Thu, 08 May 2014, 18:50:42 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Coreda

  • Posts: 510
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 20:54:35 »
The coating issue has been fixed:
http://www.zowiegear.com/index.php?i=news&p=57

Try to avoid buying from an old batch. I would personally order directly from Zowie if you have to opportunity, just to make sure. I will add this in the guide.

It's good they've acknowledged this, although I'm still waiting a while to see if the new batches don't have the same issue, including my own. After the rigmarole of the RMA they had better be :p

Offline shreebles

  • Posts: 12
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 11 May 2014, 08:17:00 »
Thanks a ton for this guide.
Like most people I came to geekhack for the keyboards, did not expect to find such an in-depth guide on mice here.
I actually just ordered a B-Stock Roccat Savu after reading this. It was only 26€ so definitely worth it for me, insteadof shelling out 60+€ on a Zowie or similar. I will probably try to use the Savu with any of the native DPI settings to avoid any jitter. I also heard that the new 4000dpi of the Avago is actually inferior to the previous firmware with 3500 dpi. We'll see about that but for this kind of price it seems like a steal either way.
The shape and texture of the savu should be perfect for me. I have the G500 but I have the weirdest claw/fingertip grip on it. I actually don't use the large thumb groove but rather grip the side of it with my thumb to get better precision. It's really not my kind of mouse but I got it for free and it has aged really well. It doesn't look 4 years old. It will be a good backup or office mouse.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 11 May 2014, 18:57:33 »
Thanks a ton for this guide.
Like most people I came to geekhack for the keyboards, did not expect to find such an in-depth guide on mice here.
I actually just ordered a B-Stock Roccat Savu after reading this. It was only 26€ so definitely worth it for me, insteadof shelling out 60+€ on a Zowie or similar. I will probably try to use the Savu with any of the native DPI settings to avoid any jitter. I also heard that the new 4000dpi of the Avago is actually inferior to the previous firmware with 3500 dpi. We'll see about that but for this kind of price it seems like a steal either way.
The shape and texture of the savu should be perfect for me. I have the G500 but I have the weirdest claw/fingertip grip on it. I actually don't use the large thumb groove but rather grip the side of it with my thumb to get better precision. It's really not my kind of mouse but I got it for free and it has aged really well. It doesn't look 4 years old. It will be a good backup or office mouse.

Thanks for the kind reply. I hope you like the Savu! Some of the mice on the list are rather expensive, but fortunately, there are some cheaper ones on there as well that provide great performance for the price.

I also noticed this was your first post. So let me be the first to tell you: Welcome to Geekhack  :D
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 00:30:46 »
I appreciate this guide. Pretty nice summary for those looking for the perfect mouse. Going to link people to this every time they ask about it now.

I was just wondering if you could possibly assist me? Would be very much appreciated. **Quote below for full situation, but not a necessary read.
Do you knew much about modifying sensors, e.g. taking an optical sensor out of mouse A[s3888], and placing into laser mouse B[s9818]. Would it be practically possible? or would I just be bricking two mice :P
Thanks <3

Quote
I've been through about 5-10 different mice in the past 5 years, and I always come back to the Razer Deathadder(left handed), as it's just so consistent.(and there's a severe lack of choice as a left handed gamer).
I'm always on the lookout for something smaller though. I'm a claw-grip user, and the mouse is simply too long[127mm/5Inch].
Ideally I would say the Razer Abyssus' size is perfect for me - [115mm/4.5Inch], however it lacks the two thumb buttons needed.

The Razer Taipan has stolen my heart for the past year or so, and it's probably the only mouse that could take away the crown. It's so comfortable, light and just small enough for me[124mm/4.8Inch]
The only downside to it i've found is the stupid sensor and it's built-in negative-acceleration.

I know there's a lot of arguing on the situation, but primarily as an FPS gamer, I don't care what anyone says, it's highly noticeable when trying to play on this low a sensitivity.
In CS:GO my settings are 6/11Windows - 400DPI - 1.95 InGame, and doing a sweep across my mouse-pad is so inconsistent. I can go anywhere from 45degrees to about 180 degrees based on how fast I move the mouse.(ideally you want to be smack bang on 180 every time). http://imgur.com/a/0yJWr Album to help explain what I mean.
With the Deathadder, I KNOW that I will always face 180 degrees when I swing around, and you have the muscle memory built up to pull off certain snap-shots.
With the Avago sensor on the Taipan, it's anyone's guess as to where you will end up, which is sad because it's such a perfectly made mouse otherwise, in my opinion.
Quote
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 May 2014, 01:14:47 by Emmiya »

Offline munch

  • Posts: 529
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 00:52:24 »
have you looked into Avior 7000 by Mionix? it has a very similar shape to the Taipan as far as I can tell, and I think has thumb buttons. sensor is the super hyped and praised 3310 by Avago which should be super consistent. it's in the list, and apparently should be similar to the Deathadder in some aspects of its performance?

Offline Bullveyr

  • Posts: 406
  • Location: Austria
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 03:02:37 »
Do you knew much about modifying sensors, e.g. taking an optical sensor out of mouse A[s3888], and placing into laser mouse B[s9818]. Would it be practically possible? or would I just be bricking two mice :P
No you can't do that, sensors have different measurements and pin location, so you can't simply solder a different sensor on the PCB (besides a few other things you would also need a new FW).
What you can do is putting the whole internals (PCB) in the shell of another mouse as long there is enough room, ofc how much work it is depends on the 2 mice involved.
Kinzuadder (Deathadder in Kinzu shell) is a prominent example.

Quote from: ripster;185750
Mechanical switches are mechanical.

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 21:06:59 »
have you looked into Avior 7000 by Mionix? it has a very similar shape to the Taipan as far as I can tell, and I think has thumb buttons. sensor is the super hyped and praised 3310 by Avago which should be super consistent. it's in the list, and apparently should be similar to the Deathadder in some aspects of its performance?

have you looked into Avior 7000 by Mionix? it has a very similar shape to the Taipan as far as I can tell, and I think has thumb buttons. sensor is the super hyped and praised 3310 by Avago which should be super consistent. it's in the list, and apparently should be similar to the Deathadder in some aspects of its performance?
Ergonomic right handed i'm afraid :c I need either an ambidextrous, or ergonomic left handed(lol, like that will ever happen). Pretty sure the razer deathadder is the only "left ergonomic" optical mouse out there.


Do you knew much about modifying sensors, e.g. taking an optical sensor out of mouse A[s3888], and placing into laser mouse B[s9818]. Would it be practically possible? or would I just be bricking two mice :P
No you can't do that, sensors have different measurements and pin location, so you can't simply solder a different sensor on the PCB (besides a few other things you would also need a new FW).
What you can do is putting the whole internals (PCB) in the shell of another mouse as long there is enough room, ofc how much work it is depends on the 2 mice involved.
Kinzuadder (Deathadder in Kinzu shell) is a prominent example.

Had a feeling that was the case. I got bored today and opened up a defunct deathadder and abyssus just to examine how they work/look.
May attempt to go for the shell-swap, however it would require some heavy modding, as the positioning of pretty much every single aspect is out of line(for example, the upper PCB on the deathadder is attached to the top shell of the mouse, and covers mouse4&5). Whereas the bottom PCB is attached to the mouse-base, and covers left/right/middle mouse button.
However taking apart the taipan, abyssus and deathadder alone, all three have differently located switches to activate pretty much every button.
Much more difficult to explain with words, will take pictures tomorrow and edit them side by side to show what I mean.


Offline munch

  • Posts: 529
  • Location: Канада
  • !
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 21:13:15 »
are you looking at the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? avior is definitely ambidextrous. check again! :)

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 23:47:25 »
are you looking at the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? avior is definitely ambidextrous. check again! :)

Oops, I'm completely retarded... haha.  Very nice spot, thank you <3

Looks pretty much identical to the Taipan, which is a plus, lack of a dedicated thumb-grip is a bit of a downer, but not a deal-breaker.

I think I shall be purchasing this relatively soon to try out.

Offline Bullveyr

  • Posts: 406
  • Location: Austria
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 28 May 2014, 03:39:35 »
@Emmiya

I know what you mean but the switches would be the easy part because you can simply hard-wire them to the main PCB, gluing in stems on the top cover to actuate the differently positioned switches (left/right button).

Biggest problem would be getting the main PCB in the right position for the mouse wheel while still maintain the mounting specs for the sensor, that would most likely need quite the modding of the the lower shell base.
Quote from: ripster;185750
Mechanical switches are mechanical.

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 28 May 2014, 07:41:12 »
@Emmiya

I know what you mean but the switches would be the easy part because you can simply hard-wire them to the main PCB, gluing in stems on the top cover to actuate the differently positioned switches (left/right button).

Biggest problem would be getting the main PCB in the right position for the mouse wheel while still maintain the mounting specs for the sensor, that would most likely need quite the modding of the the lower shell base.

Yeah, I think I'll stick to the Deathadder for now, and switch over to the avion7000 When I can no longer handle the size.

I have a slight feeling we should stop posting in this thread anyway :3 Supposed to be a guide on mice, not helping me decide which mouse to buy next <3

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 29 May 2014, 04:24:21 »
I have a slight feeling we should stop posting in this thread anyway :3 Supposed to be a guide on mice, not helping me decide which mouse to buy next <3

It is completely fine to post in this thread as long as the discussion is about mice  :thumb:

Sorry that I did not reply. I have been away for a while. Luckily there are others who were able to help you out. This is something that I actually hope would continue in this thread. With people like Bullveyr sharing their knowledge.

I will make some time this weekend and add something to the guide. I really need to add the G502 at least.
« Last Edit: Thu, 29 May 2014, 04:26:39 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline TheDark

  • Posts: 2
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 04 June 2014, 16:09:04 »
Made an account here just to say this is the best mouse guide I've come across. Fantastic work!

If it's cool I also want to make a suggestion for improvement - the one bit of information missing about each mouse that is important to me is if the mouse features onboard memory for storing profile settings.

I also want to note that the CM Storm Recon and the Steelseries Kinzu V2 are missing from the list. They both also use the Avargo ADNS-3090.

Offline miled

  • Posts: 2
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 04 June 2014, 21:49:02 »
You should include a section about static vs moving friction. Although this is 50% dependent on the surface that you're using (the other 50% owing to the feet of the mouse), it plays an important role in how a mouse handles. If your mouse feet/surface combination has a badly matched static and moving friction, then it can take a lot of force to get the mouse to start moving from a stationary position. But then, once you get the mouse moving, the coefficient of friction becomes that of the moving friction, and if this is lower than the coefficient of static friction then the mouse will seem to "run away", making small adjustments to your aim very hard to do. Another thing worth noting is that too much glide can be a bad thing. If your mouse glides so easily that you have to apply a force opposing the direction of motion to stop it in a timely fashion, then you are essentially adding another source of uncertainty to your aim. Using the natural moving friction of the mouse feet and mousepad to stop the mouse allows for a much more accurate stop.

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 07:53:43 »
So... just thought i'd bump this in case anyone was interested.

Decided to try a Recon, was always put off by the aesthetics, but looking at the dimensions of it, it is the perfect size for me. I think i'll have to do a little mod and remove the "left" thumb buttons. I keep grabbing them on my Taipan and they're tiny, so with the recon's being as huge as they are, I have no doubt i'll be mis-pressing them all the time. I'm hoping I can turn that 20g of acceleration off in the settings somewhere though, or else I've just dumped a more money into a 9th spare mouse u_u

Offline damorgue

  • Posts: 1459
  • Location: Sweden
    • Personal portfolio
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 08:03:54 »
First generation of the Logitech G400 had prediction and another sensor (the Avago 3080E sensor). You need a PID above LZ13333 for a G400 without this problem. Here is where you can find the information you need to see whether you have a "good" version

Logitech stopped using PID and I believe all G400 which have a product code in the new P/N format all have the better sensor.

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:16:38 »
Quote
Here's a video I just made to show the difference between the 2.

Laser first with all forms of acceleration turned off(except the inherent negative laser-acceleration)
Optical second.

I'll let the results speak for themselves.

Which brings me quite a lot of shame, because I ****ing love the feel of my laser mouse, but it's not worth the 18% accuracy drop
Just figured i'd quote my other post, so people can see why i'm so pissy about the optical sensor vs the laser.
The negative acceleration kicks in in fully "normal" circumstances.
Also, tried out the recon, what a waste of £15 :p
next up... the Avior 7000, looks like a carbon copy of the Taipan, only with a decent sensor.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:18:13 by Emmiya »

Offline renoldscott

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: USA, New York
    • Whitepaper IT
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 02:45:00 »
You have shared interesting topic.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 03:04:49 »
Added the G502 to the list.

Also, thanks for all the contributions in the comments. I read every single one and a lot of it will find a place in the guide.

Made an account here just to say this is the best mouse guide I've come across. Fantastic work!

If it's cool I also want to make a suggestion for improvement - the one bit of information missing about each mouse that is important to me is if the mouse features onboard memory for storing profile settings.

I also want to note that the CM Storm Recon and the Steelseries Kinzu V2 are missing from the list. They both also use the Avargo ADNS-3090.

Thanks for your kind words, and welcome to Geekhack! Adding whether or not there is on-board memory would be nice. This may make it into the guide if I have time. I guess that if I do it I should also note which mice you do not need onboard setting for (either because they have no settings, or because you can change the setting on the mouse itself).

The Kinzu V2 will not be added to the list. It does not use the 3090. I believe it uses the Pixart 3305 which comes with its own problems (not to be mistaken for the 3310).

I can not remember why I did not add the Recon, but I will look it up again and reconsider it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 June 2014, 12:07:03 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline Emmiya

  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Hull - United Kingdom.
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 03:26:30 »
So, I tried out two more mice since the last update(lel)

CM Storm Recon.
Whilst the length was good for me(fingertip grip), it was way too wide. The firmware was absolute balls, Sensor was as expected, nothing spectacular.

Mionix Avior 7000.
So I took the plunge and got it based on recommendations, I'm glad I did, perfect sensor. Right length, Width is a tiny bit on the long side, but still workable. I'm still a fanboy of the rubberized thumb grips from the Taipan, but guess you can't have everything :3 Gameplay wise having that consistency is so much more valuable and it really does show.

Offline loki993

  • Posts: 88
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 07:15:02 »
Any plans on getting the FK1 and/or the Rokkat Kone Military on the list in the near future, ie the new batch of 3310 mice? I would like to see your thoughts on that one.

Offline katushkin

  • Too Keycool for School
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3318
  • Location: Birmingham - Not Alabama
  • America bound - 10/01->10/15
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:45:55 »
This is fantastic, thanks Grim.

I do have a question - what are the differences between the three generations of the R.A.T? I have recently bought a 5 but haven't used it at all, and was wondering how it compared/differed to the description you gave for the 3?
Keyboard of the Month - July - Vote - WTS Reaper Collector's Edition

More
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?

Cherry G81-1800 - Leeku PCB + Ergo Clears | WASD V2 - Clears | Keycool 104 RGB - Kailh Blues | '91 SSK | V60 Mini - Greens | KC 108 - Tactile Greys | KC 84 - Browns | Model M 1391406 | Terminal M 1392595 | Ducky Mini YOTH - Whites |

Email me - katushkin at geekhack dot org | Twitter - @NikKatushkin | Snapchat - Katushkin | Steam - Katushkin | Instagram - @nikkatushkin |

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1140
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 17:18:57 »
This is fantastic, thanks Grim.

I do have a question - what are the differences between the three generations of the R.A.T? I have recently bought a 5 but haven't used it at all, and was wondering how it compared/differed to the description you gave for the 3?

Thanks ! The differences between the mice are not only some of the features, but also the sensor that is used. I looked it up , and the RAT5 uses a Philips Twin Eye PLN 2031 sensor. This is a sensor that is known for having the "z-axis" problem. What happens, is simply that lifting the mouse from the surface will cause the sensor to pick up movement and your cursor to move. To some people, this can be very annoying. It does not suffer from acceleration as far as I know.

Any plans on getting the FK1 and/or the Rokkat Kone Military on the list in the near future, ie the new batch of 3310 mice? I would like to see your thoughts on that one.

Yes, I was quite excited to see the FK1. It is one of the mice I plan to add. The Roccat kone military is also one of the mice that needs to be added. I am quite impressed with the 3310 sensor mice in general. The 3090 sensor was very popular among enthusiasts, but there were still some common issues, like a high lift of distance that plagued almost all of the mice that implemented the sensor, and a max perfect tracking speed that was somewhat low on some of them. The mice that implement the 3310 sensor seem to avoid these two problems, while adding smaller DPI steps and a higher max DPI. Those last two things are not too important for me personally, but some people care about them.
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 July 2014, 17:28:57 by Grim Fandango »
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline dmbr

  • Posts: 180
Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 08 July 2014, 23:45:48 »
Con for the g502:
-Bad quality control

This appears to be a fairly common defect:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60179.0

The metal mouse wheel has so much play in some units that it rattles.

There are many reports of problems with the mouse feet in the Logitech forums, too.