TKL and smaller keyboard buying advice... have a pre-chicklet thinkpad kb?

[fishfalcon]

Hi! I'm having trouble deciding between some TKL and smaller-size keyboards and was hoping that the community could help me to narrow down my list of options. I'm coming from a Model M (blue label) which may or may not have survived the water I foolishly spilled on it. I've been wanting a smaller keyboard for my desktop for a while now, so while I will order a nut driver to open up my soggy model m, I'm looking for a small replacement (TKL-to-60ish keys). I mainly use linux, so it would be nice to get a kb with ctrl able to be mapped to caps by dip switch, but that's not a dealbreaker if it means I can save a few dollars. Also, I don't find myself ever using arrow keys... or anything east of the f12 column, so those don't matter to me either.  Also, backlighting doesn't matter. Here's what matters:

-no flex in the chassis (okay there can be flex when you actually try to abuse the keyboard, but not if you were to use it normally)
-compatible with custom keycaps (I want to eventually install lower-profile caps... i currently love my Thinkpad T420 keyboard which has 2.5mm travel)

now, here's some uncertainty:
I've only tried cherry blues... and I really don't like them, they don't offer any resistance if you come from a buckling spring keyboard IMO.... so what would you recommend if I plan to shorten my key travel and use a cherry switch with high resistance? does linear vs tactile matter if all I'm looking for is resistance before the key is depressed? It's funny, because I associate 'mechanical' keyboards with BS kbs,  and not all technically 'mechanical' switches, so I associate mechanical with 'high resistance.'....  I'm actually quite curious to see if any GH users use thinkpad keyboards, and know what i'm talking about with the T420... it offers resistance, decent travel (for a laptop) and snappy feedback... (it's really quite nice )

Here's the list I have so far, and if you're patient enough to get this far, read even more questions (oh yeah, budget shouldn't exceed ~$150)
Filco:
Minila or majestouch 

Leopold:
fc660m  or TKL model
... this is pretty straightforward, so here are the main two questions that come to mind: am I unaware of brands which make good quality boards? If so,  what do you think they are?
and
I said earlier that i associate mechanical keyboards with high resistance, i'm not trying to redefine that term, it's just that, what switch would you recommend if i want resistance and tactility? I"m kinda hoping that someone here knows what it feels like to type on pre chicklet thinkpads.... in a perfect world where i had infinite cash, i would probably have gone for topre boards, but i'm not sure that they offer what i'm looking for either... opinions? (plz? lol i think way too much about this )

[rowdy]

Welcome to Geekhack!

SSK?

[fishfalcon]

thanks for the welcome!
LOL, SSK is probably the best solution, but i thought it would be fun to grab a  cherry board n mod it.  Plus, I'm trying to find a quieter solution than BS.

[rowdy]

Heh most keyboards will be quieter than BS!

If you like the stiffness of BS, maybe an MX board with blacks or greens would be a good starting point.

[fishfalcon]

thanks for that, it seems I'm gravitating towards the blacks... so now i guess i have to think about plate mount vs board mount.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

If you're looking at the Cherry MX world of keyboards, mx blacks and greens are the most widely available at the moment. Cooler master has TKL boards with greens. I think it's in the ballpark of BS as far as resistance, but BS is stiffer.

[ideus]

I am using a FC660M now, and I may say as a summary: It is rock solid, and it feels very well made. For the sake of your preferences regarding switches if may be get with clears, greens, or blacks, that may be a good fit for you due to their resistance. It is plate mounted.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Maybe one of the smaller matias?

[fishfalcon]

@ideus: are the keycaps on the fc660* interchangeable with custom caps? then I'd def consider that!

@False_Dmitry_II: The only experience with alps switches i can hope to have is with an ancient apple IIgs, which felt good, but from my limited perspective, alps seems to be all over the place these days! ;O)

[Pacifist]

@ideus: are the keycaps on the fc660* interchangeable with custom caps? then I'd def consider that!

@False_Dmitry_II: The only experience with alps switches i can hope to have is with an ancient apple IIgs, which felt good, but from my limited perspective, alps seems to be all over the place these days! ;O)

660 has 2x right shift

[fishfalcon]

good to know! thx!!

[ideus]

@ideus: are the keycaps on the fc660* interchangeable with custom caps? then I'd def consider that!

@False_Dmitry_II: The only experience with alps switches i can hope to have is with an ancient apple IIgs, which felt good, but from my limited perspective, alps seems to be all over the place these days! ;O)

The FC660M can use any standard cherry set, but it has 3 non-standard keys: 1u win key, 2.25u right shift, which is like an standard left one in ANSI keyboards, and the space bar is 6.25, but has the stems closer in between than the standard.


You can get black and white PBT spacebars aftermarket. I am using now a vintage WoB cherry set, I bought a second 2.25u shift from the classifieds and the PBT black space bar. My cherry set came with 1u mods, so I have a 1u win key already.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Matias came out with his own switches a couple years ago. They're very similar to old alps from what I've read. Im not sure on the particular color of switches to compare them to.  I'm using a Matias quiet mini pro right now and I like it.  Mainly for the feel, not the lack of noise necessarily. It has a stiffer switch and the tactile bump is at the top with a soft landing because it's dampened. Also, I really like the layout.

[ideus]

Matias came out with his own switches a couple years ago. They're very similar to old alps from what I've read. Im not sure on the particular color of switches to compare them to.  I'm using a Matias quiet mini pro right now and I like it.  Mainly for the feel, not the lack of noise necessarily. It has a stiffer switch and the tactile bump is at the top with a soft landing because it's dampened. Also, I really like the layout.

What type of stems does it have? ALPS?

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Matias came out with his own switches a couple years ago. They're very similar to old alps from what I've read. Im not sure on the particular color of switches to compare them to.  I'm using a Matias quiet mini pro right now and I like it.  Mainly for the feel, not the lack of noise necessarily. It has a stiffer switch and the tactile bump is at the top with a soft landing because it's dampened. Also, I really like the layout.

What type of stems does it have? ALPS?

I'm pretty sure they have the same stem as Alps switches. The close up pictures I can find make them look the same.

[fishfalcon]

mini pro does look nice... the final decision seems to be between a fc660m(clear or green) and a quiet mini pro.  can you customize matias/alps keycaps? or is it too niche/expensive to do so?

[ideus]

mini pro does look nice... the final decision seems to be between a fc660m(clear or green) and a quiet mini pro.  can you customize matias/alps keycaps? or is it too niche/expensive to do so?

I had an TKL ALPS keyboard a couple of years ago, and while I liked it, I was not able to get a new set for it. Only old donor boards, so I decided to start using MX based boards. There a lot of GBs for MX keycaps, so now I am very happy moding my boards.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

There isn't much out there for replacement matias/alps keycaps. I've seen one or two Alps GBs here as opposed to the plethora of Cherry GBs. Matias has been talking about new keycaps here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45483.90. In the thread he talks about switching to thick PBT keycaps, but that'd be later in the year at the earliest.

[fishfalcon]

agh! on one hand the fc660 has pbt caps (minus the space) and potential keycap 'pimpability...' but on the other hand, the matias mini quiet pro has a better layout IMO and two usb ports ! I'm kind of leaning towards the matias though, because money spent on new keycaps for the cherry could be put towards an hhkb... or i could just buy a fc660c AGH!

[False_Dmitry_II]

Personally, the ability to have custom keys on MX switches never won me over. I sold the one modern MX board I had and generally use other stuff. So if my choice was between those, I'd go with the matias. But that's because I know I like alps better.

Given you've said your other mech is a model M you may turn out to be the same, but there are others who like buckling springs and cherry MX.

[fishfalcon]

hi Dmitry,  have you (or anyone)  tried the mini quiet and/or tactile pro keys? I wonder if the tactile pro keys require more force, which would be preferable.  I read through the faq at matias and discovered that Linux should play nicely with the apple-oriented boards... so now i'm just going to choose the strongest switch offered by matias.


edit: i think they are the same switch, both listed as requiring 60-65g, but perhaps they 'feel' different? plz anyone feel free to chime in.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I have a mini quiet pro and I've tried the clicky switches briefly in a store (Micro Center). I mainly went with the quiet because I liked the feel of the bottom being dampened as opposed to a hard bottom out. The stroke is the same length, just not a hard crash at the bottom. So, it's not like o-rings where they take up extra room. For some reason I remember being able to feel the tactility of the quiet switches more. I think that is a personal preference in switches though.

[ideus]

Remember: everything about keyboards, their layouts, their switches, and their caps, are personal matters, always. Is the thing you are always in contact with, besides your pointing device, where using your computer.

[korrelate]

If you're a big fan of BS then my first thought would be to avoid linear switches. My first PC was a used IBM with a BS SSK. I loved it but eventually got rid of it. When I first started out on mech keyboards I went for Brown first and was pretty happy. Decided to give reds a shot and was so terribly disappointed it was silly. On my current board I've tried blacks and clears and a number of different types of springs and although I really see the appeal of blacks, I'm not sure that's where I would start if I were you.

And when I here BS I also think high resistance.

I were you I would be starting with wasdkeyboards.com and I'd get the green code keyboard.
Also, matias is definitely not the first keyboard that leaps to mind when I consider your background: too light.
Also, black switches: your history doesn't lend themselves to well to this. I think of BS as very tactile. Black springs aren't tactile at all.

I have to agree with ideus too: so many of these decisions are all so personal it's ridiculous.

[fishfalcon]

heh, yeah i can't deny that my lack of experience with many mechanical switches puts me at a disadvantage, trying to ask for your personal preferences probably isn't the best way for me to find the best board/switch combo for myself. i suppose i'm just trying to measure many times, and cut once, which is pretty unrealistic.

@korrelate, the mx green CODE keyboard looked pretty neat to me, but perhaps I should hunt for a non-backlit board... extra price for no extra functionality makes it a gimmick for me.  I am concerned that the matias switches won't offer BS-level resistance, and that's okay, I was more interested to see if the tactility/experience could prove to be pleasant... at this point i'm going to just force myself to buy another board and learn from the experience... my loner desktop board is a mushy bacteria ridden stock membrane keyboard that came with my desktop many years ago. so i really just need to get rid of this POS.

[ideus]

You can always listen to others' experiences on different aspects of keyboards, but at the end the one and only final judge will be your own and very personal feeling.

[fishfalcon]

I went in circles for a while and said 'screw it.' I"m going to take a chance with the cherry green code keyboard, and if I don't like it, I guess I'll learn how the GH marketplace works. ETA in 5ish days, so I'm crossing my fingers.

[rowdy]

I went in circles for a while and said 'screw it.' I"m going to take a chance with the cherry green code keyboard, and if I don't like it, I guess I'll learn how the GH marketplace works. ETA in 5ish days, so I'm crossing my fingers.

Got to start somewhere - otherwise you will spend the rest of your time wondering what you might have had

Code is a good place to start, especially with greens

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Code looks nice, I was considering getting one. Hope you like it. I'd like to hear how it compares to BS.

[daerid]

The only benefit in being able to swap caps is using a PBT set. I can't stand ABS anymore.

[fishfalcon]

pbt is something i've only read about... perhaps i can learn to love them, but if this thread is anything to learn from, i'll wait till i try them before giving an opinion noob question: pbt and dye sublimation are different processes right?

[rowdy]

pbt is something i've only read about... perhaps i can learn to love them, but if this thread is anything to learn from, i'll wait till i try them before giving an opinion noob question: pbt and dye sublimation are different processes right?

PBT is a type of plastic.

Dye-sub is a printing technology to get the legends onto the keycap.

PBT double-shotting is difficult due to the nature of PBT, so most PBT sets have the legends printed with dye-sublimation.

[fishfalcon]

ahh, many thanks! i confused the two somehow. .. i believe my thinkpad has dyesubbed legends on the keycaps.

[rowdy]

ahh, many thanks! i confused the two somehow. .. i believe my thinkpad has dyesubbed legends on the keycaps.

Maybe, but more likely pad-printed, which wears off an order of magnitude quicker.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I think the Model M has PBT keycaps.

[False_Dmitry_II]

The model M does have PBT dye-subs.

Buy the matias also, compare them, and sell the failure. If there is a failure. If not welcome to wallethack.

@rowdy Where did you see it being a materials problem? I've seen that as something that people have inferred as being the reason we do not have any examples of it being done before; however I've also seen people who have materials experience say that there is nothing stopping anyone from doing doubleshot PBT and that it is only because it would be expensive to make the new machinery required to do so, this is needed because the machinery that does ABS doubleshots is not capable of handling PBT. Maybe we need to find those millionaires who keep spending thousands of dollars on industrial M's to pay for these machines to be made.

[rowdy]

The model M does have PBT dye-subs.

Buy the matias also, compare them, and sell the failure. If there is a failure. If not welcome to wallethack.

@rowdy Where did you see it being a materials problem? I've seen that as something that people have inferred as being the reason we do not have any examples of it being done before; however I've also seen people who have materials experience say that there is nothing stopping anyone from doing doubleshot PBT and that it is only because it would be expensive to make the new machinery required to do so, this is needed because the machinery that does ABS doubleshots is not capable of handling PBT. Maybe we need to find those millionaires who keep spending thousands of dollars on industrial M's to pay for these machines to be made.

I've seen it said more than a few times around here.

Something to do with the heat that the plastic melts at, and when it cools it shrinks too much to make doubleshot a reliable process.

Vortex seem to have worked something out - they have a range of doubleshot PBT keycaps (albeit with some horrible legends).

[False_Dmitry_II]

I don't really mind them, generally that's something that doesn't bother me. Still better than others.

Of course, it'd be cool if I could choose fonts, but then I'd go for some garish medieval font probably.

[Bucake]

Dye-sub is a printing technology to get the legends onto the keycap.

PBT double-shotting is difficult due to the nature of PBT, so most PBT sets have the legends printed with dye-sublimation.

hi there,
i've also been wondering about legends/printing..

how significant is difference in durability between double-shot and dye-sub? are we talking millions of presses, a few years of 'good use'? (before fading starts)
and is there a (noticable) difference in feel/texture between the two?

bonus: any idea what kind of printing is used on the pure pro*? is it dye-sub? pad printed? (it only says "Black printed" in the description..)

i play FPS games for about 2 hours every day (on my pure pro*) and am severely abusing my WASD and lshift keys.
i'm very curious to when i should expect to see the legends start to fade and if i should go for double-shots on my next keyboard..

*stock pure pro - non backlit with pbt keycaps

[rowdy]

Dye-sub is a printing technology to get the legends onto the keycap.

PBT double-shotting is difficult due to the nature of PBT, so most PBT sets have the legends printed with dye-sublimation.

hi there,
i've also been wondering about legends/printing..

how significant is difference in durability between double-shot and dye-sub? are we talking millions of presses, a few years of 'good use'? (before fading starts)
and is there a (noticable) difference in feel/texture between the two?

bonus: any idea what kind of printing is used on the pure pro*? is it dye-sub? pad printed? (it only says "Black printed" in the description..)

i play FPS games for about 2 hours every day (on my pure pro*) and am severely abusing my WASD and lshift keys.
i'm very curious to when i should expect to see the legends start to fade and if i should go for double-shots on my next keyboard..

*stock pure pro - non backlit with pbt keycaps

Double-shot is basically one bit of plastic for the legends and another for the keycap.  The legend will never wear off.  If for some reason it does, then most of the keycap will have worn away too.  They will go shiny, especially ABS, but never wear away.

Dyesub is, as I understand, basically special dye soaked into the surface of the keycap.  This I suppose could wear away if enough of the surface of the plastic is removed, but dyesub is usually used on PBT, which lasts for a very, very long time.

Some pictures of the two:

http://imgur.com/a/OhRd4

http://imgur.com/a/nEMp7

[ideus]

Dye-sub is a printing technology to get the legends onto the keycap.

PBT double-shotting is difficult due to the nature of PBT, so most PBT sets have the legends printed with dye-sublimation.

hi there,
i've also been wondering about legends/printing..

how significant is difference in durability between double-shot and dye-sub? are we talking millions of presses, a few years of 'good use'? (before fading starts)
and is there a (noticable) difference in feel/texture between the two?

bonus: any idea what kind of printing is used on the pure pro*? is it dye-sub? pad printed? (it only says "Black printed" in the description..)

i play FPS games for about 2 hours every day (on my pure pro*) and am severely abusing my WASD and lshift keys.
i'm very curious to when i should expect to see the legends start to fade and if i should go for double-shots on my next keyboard..

*stock pure pro - non backlit with pbt keycaps

Double-shot is basically one bit of plastic for the legends and another for the keycap.  The legend will never wear off.  If for some reason it does, then most of the keycap will have worn away too.  They will go shiny, especially ABS, but never wear away.

Dyesub is, as I understand, basically special dye soaked into the surface of the keycap.  This I suppose could wear away if enough of the surface of the plastic is removed, but dyesub is usually used on PBT, which lasts for a very, very long time.

Some pictures of the two:

http://imgur.com/a/OhRd4

http://imgur.com/a/nEMp7

Very few, if any, stock keyboards come with sublimated legends on PBT. Most PBT sets in new boards are pad printed or laser etched.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Unicomp totally comes with that.

Also, there are model m's from back then that have been used every day since they came out with perfectly fine legends, you'd just have to look for documented examples. I'm sure some of the alps apple stuff has similar examples. In fact, most vintage things that have PBT are probably all dyesub.

I suspect how quickly wear happens depends on the person. Before stumbling into a mech with acer switches, I used the same $4 dome keyboard (because I had tried all the "gaming" domes in the store and actually preferred the cheap domes to those) for 3+ years, and it still looks new. Some other people seem to shine ABS in a month.

[fishfalcon]

this is a fascinating discussion, but what medieval fonts would you have printed on your keycaps?

oh yeah, also my kb arrives saturday! (hooray for me!)

cuz you mentioned unicomp: if they can't manufacture a 'next-gen' SSK, has anyone discovered why that is the case...because a trackpoint SSK would probably be my dream keyboard.

[esko997]

After reading your post I would definitely recommend MX Greens. I really like the stiffness/feel of them -- an absolute joy to type on. The only this is they are a little loud, definitely not as loud as a buckling spring keyboard but still something to consider. Also, I believe Monoprice sells a cheap ($60??) and relatively good quality MX keyboard if youre looking to start off with something a little less expensive. Good luck!

[tbc]

honestly, i've never seen a single mention of somebody mentioning that somebody wore out their dyesubbed legends.

you have to literally change the shape of the top of your keycap before you remove all of the legend dye.

double shot would be impossible to wear down without nearly breaking your keycap in half.

for practical sake, they're both impossible to wear down.

[Bucake]

thanks for the replies

i still can't tell for sure which printing method was used, but i guess it doesn't really matter.
i just hope these legends will last me a fair amount of time because i really like this font.
gonna be painful when i see those first sights of fading.. ;p

well, pbt keycaps with dye-subbed legends on my next keyboard, for sure!

[False_Dmitry_II]

this is a fascinating discussion, but what medieval fonts would you have printed on your keycaps?

oh yeah, also my kb arrives saturday! (hooray for me!)

cuz you mentioned unicomp: if they can't manufacture a 'next-gen' SSK, has anyone discovered why that is the case...because a trackpoint SSK would probably be my dream keyboard.

I don't really know fonts, so I'm not sure. If I could find out which one they use for demons speaking in Sleepy Hollow, I think that font would be good for such things. It would at least be a contender.

Theoretically Unicomp should have the machines used to build the SSK's originally, so it never made much sense to me that they couldn't seem to do them. Maybe something happened to them or they went elsewhere before they took over the factory. Allegedly they're supposed to be working on it.

[fishfalcon]

I received my keyboard in the mail today, and have been adapting to it... I like that the green switches are resistive and definitely underrated the force required to depress them. I think that within a week, I'll be used to this... It feels and sounds like  a typewriter... I'm considering writing a review once I've spent more time using it... but I'm pretty impressed.

is it possible to swap certain switches on this board? if I don't get used to them, having the same large amount of force to depress modifiers is where i see mx greens becoming tiring, it would be cool to replace those buttons with weaker clears or maybe blues.

[rowdy]

I received my keyboard in the mail today, and have been adapting to it... I like that the green switches are resistive and definitely underrated the force required to depress them. I think that within a week, I'll be used to this... It feels and sounds like  a typewriter... I'm considering writing a review once I've spent more time using it... but I'm pretty impressed.

is it possible to swap certain switches on this board? if I don't get used to them, having the same large amount of force to depress modifiers is where i see mx greens becoming tiring, it would be cool to replace those buttons with weaker clears or maybe blues.

Congratulations on choosing greens - a fine switch, and one of my favourites

You can almost certainly swap switches, and this will almost certainly void your warranty, and will involve opening the keyboard, desoldering the old switch, soldering the new switch in, and closing the keyboard back up.