G84-4100: A Few Questions

[shkm]

Hello!

Just going to pop off a bit of an introduction first.

I've been getting through value keyboards at a ridiculous rate over the past few years.  Some of these have been adequate for the most part, but I've always ended up trashing them after a few months.

My most recent keyboard was the "Logitec Black Pearl".  I really liked this keyboard upon first receiving it, but it has since become filthy and the keys are just sticky.  I already destroyed a previous keyboard by taking off all the key caps (in order to experiment with Colemak) so I saved myself the time and ordered a cheap, rather decent looking slim "A4Tech" keyboard based on good customer reviews at the retailer.

This keyboard arrived today and was completely unusable.  Utter rubbish.  It was cheap, but I'm hoping for a refund as I claimed it's faulty simply due to being utterly, horrendously bad.

Anyhow, reason I'm telling you all this is--as you've guessed by now--I had no real clue about keyboards until today.  I was sick and tired of replacing cheap keyboards with a gamble.  I wanted to look for something that would last.

After hours upon hours of scouring the Web, I came across Geekhack.  After hours of scouring this site, I think I now have some sort of an idea.

With that out of the way (and yes, I do ramble), onto my issue.  I live in the UK so many of the keyboards are unavailable or would simply be out of my budget (which is around £50) to ship over.  As such, I'm rather limited for choice.

I'm looking for a minimal keyboard--numpad doesn't matter, but is fine as long as the keyboard isn't huge--with n-key rollover that's suitable for gaming. My typing speed is on the quick side (~90-100 WPM) and as you can see from this post, I type a lot.  As such, comfort would be appreciated.

Anyway, I've found a cheap Cherry G84-4100 which is well within my budget.  My only real concern about the layout is the lack of a true "`¬|" key next to the "1"--I play a lot of MMORPGs and the extra close bind is very useful--but I'm sure I can deal with that.

There's a little information I'm lacking on this keyboard.

Firstly, it's imperative that this keyboard has n-key rollover.  I read the entire related (n-key rollover test) thread and searched the forums but could not find a confirmation on this.

Secondly, the seller does not give out the full model for this keyboard.  Upon shopping around I found there to be a few full models of this keyboard available, without a clue of the differences.  Furthermore, Geekhack users seemed to have different models entirely.

Anyway, I hope someone has managed to endure my post and could give me some answers.  I apologise if this information is readily available already--I did look around, but couldn't find anything.

Thank you.

[itlnstln]

Welcome to GeekHack!

I have a 4100, and it does not have NKRO.  I think it has 2-KRO, if I remember correctly.  I am not an expert on the Cherry model number system, but I have a US version, and its full model number is G84-4100PPAUS /01.  From what I understand, these are intended to be used in point-of-sale applications, so things like NKRO would not be a priority.  the 4100 is a great keyboard for packing with a laptop, thouugh, which is what I do with mine.

[shkm]

Welcome to GeekHack!

I have a 4100, and it does not have NKRO.  I think it has 2-KRO, if I remember correctly.  I am not an expert on the Cherry model number system, but I have a US version, and its full model number is G84-4100PPAUS /01.  From what I understand, these are intended to be used in point-of-sale applications, so things like NKRO would not be a priority.  the 4100 is a great keyboard for packing with a laptop, thouugh, which is what I do with mine.

Thank you for the response!

The keyboard does seem to fit my taste, but after sleeping on it I think the loss of a proper "`" key along with the placement of the "\" are a bit of a killer for gaming.  I'm definitely still considering and would love to hear if it has full n-key rollover, but I'm also very much looking into other suggestions.

By far my main requirement is full n-key rollover, but I'm also looking for something that doesn't require it to be spread out over 3 desks because of size.  There are quite a few nice looking keyboards that fit these relatively simple needs, but none of them are available in the UK or are well overbudget.

[lowpoly]

No NKRO on regular Cherry boards.

A4Tech

Two (?) years ago I bought an A4Tech space saver for my server. The printing on the keys started to wear off after a few months and I almost never typed on that board.

[shkm]

Aww, that's a real shame.

I'm really liking the look of Filcos and this thing (which seems perfect in every way) but I've had no luck finding anything in the UK.

[huha]

I thought about buying a G84-4100, but when I typed on one, it immediately became apparent that its layout is not very well thought out. Contrary to keyboards similar in size, it features all 3 windows keys, rendering the spacebar horribly small. This is extremely annoying when using the right thumb to press it.

-huha

[ozar]

I thought about buying a G84-4100, but when I typed on one, it immediately became apparent that its layout is not very well thought out. Contrary to keyboards similar in size, it features all 3 windows keys, rendering the spacebar horribly small. This is extremely annoying when using the right thumb to press it.

-huha

Mine only has 83 keys, thus no Windows keys and a bigger spacebar.  I actually like it quite well, except that it's so light in weight that if you should exhale too hard you might blow it off the desktop.  

[itlnstln]

Mine only has 83 keys, thus no Windows keys and a bigger spacebar.  I actually like it quite well, except that it's so light in weight that if you should exhale too hard you might blow it off the desktop.  

Mine doesn't have the Windows keys, either, and I think the layout is fine except for the lower right side where it gets a little busy.

[cchan]

Mine doesn't have the Windows keys, either, and I think the layout is fine except for the lower right side where it gets a little busy.

I don't mind the lower right, I'm never there anyway. The majorest faux pas is making Home right next to Backspace. I /always/ typo that.

[huha]

Mine only has 83 keys, thus no Windows keys and a bigger spacebar.  I actually like it quite well, except that it's so light in weight that if you should exhale too hard you might blow it off the desktop.  

The version without windows keys is a bit harder to find and slightly more expensive (for whatever reason!), so when I needed a smallish keyboard, I bought Cherry's Cymotion Pro. It was really cheap (special promotional offer from the store I bought it from: About EUR 10 shipped, so I couldn't resist) and has its fair share of problems ranging from useless feet which have the unique property to retain the keyboard from wobbling from side to side but lifting the rubber feet as well so it will slide on the desk to a horribly, horribly crippled layout (10 F-keys at both sides of the keyboard? F11 and F12 only available with Fn+F9 and Fn+F10) and being cramped as hell in general; but at least the spacebar is normal in length. Oh, and it's a bit fugly as well.
I have since replaced it with a G80-3000, which is much better. I can now actually enjoy using my secondary computer.

But speaking of the G84-4100, I kind of liked the ML switches. Are there other keyboards with ML switches that can be bought in the world's most unimportant part, i.e. Europe?

-huha

[cchan]

ter.

But speaking of the G84-4100, I kind of liked the ML switches. Are there other keyboards with ML switches that can be bought in the world's most unimportant part, i.e. Europe?

-huha

Optimus Maximus. And of course Cherry G84-4400 and -5200.

[bigpook]

I have the 4100 and its ok, the short right shift key got to be a problem for me. Thats the major reason I stopped using it. Which is too bad as I think the key feel is pretty good.

[huha]

Optimus Maximus. And of course Cherry G84-4400 and -5200.

I think I could build my custom ML switch keyboard for the Optimus Maximus' price, so that's out of question. The 4400 and 5200 also feature the shortened spacebar, which is an absolute no-go.
So I think it's just the 4100 then. It's a pity they aren't sold on ebay, buying new keyboards gets somewhat expensive over time.

-huha

[cchan]

I think I could build my custom ML switch keyboard for the Optimus Maximus' price, so that's out of question. The 4400 and 5200 also feature the shortened spacebar, which is an absolute no-go.
So I think it's just the 4100 then. It's a pity they aren't sold on ebay, buying new keyboards gets somewhat expensive over time.

-huha

Yeah then there's no ML switch keyboard with a normal spacebar. Unless Datalux boards use ML. I recall Chloë mentioning Datalux switched from MEI switches to linear Cherry ML. But I don't know for sure.

[itlnstln]

I have the 4100 and its ok, the short right shift key got to be a problem for me. Thats the major reason I stopped using it. Which is too bad as I think the key feel is pretty good.

This gets me as well as the short Enter key.

[FKSSR]

I'm pretty sure I would break that keyboard in half after trying to type on it for more than 5 minutes due to the delete, enter, and shift key.

[alpslover]

i don't see how anyone could use this keyboard as a primary keyboard unless they've got infant hands.  the keys are noticeably smaller than those on a normal keyboard (or even a normal laptop's keyboard), and the ml switches aren't particularly impressive.

[itlnstln]

i don't see how anyone could use this keyboard as a primary keyboard unless they've got infant hands.  the keys are noticeably smaller than those on a normal keyboard (or even a normal laptop's keyboard), and the ml switches aren't particularly impressive.

I don't think the keys are any smaller than my G80 sitting right next to it, at least surface area-wise.  They are stiffer than my Cherry browns, though.  It is OK for an occasional-use 'board, but I wouldn't want to use it all day.  It is pretty fun to type on from time-to-time, and it freaks people out show small it is.

[alpslover]

I don't think the keys are any smaller than my G80 sitting right next to it, at least surface area-wise.  They are stiffer than my Cherry browns, though.  It is OK for an occasional-use 'board, but I wouldn't want to use it all day.  It is pretty fun to type on from time-to-time, and it freaks people out show small it is.

i don't have the 4100 in front of me, but the keys are definitely smaller than a normal keyboard's.  not just the top surfaces where your fingers contact, but the 'footprint' of the keys is smaller.

i agree, as a very occasional use keyboard where space is at a premium, it's fine.

[ozar]

I would think that it makes a great portable board for those that need that function, except that I'm not sure how sturdy it is for that purpose, being constructed of such light weight materials.

[bigpook]

I would think that it makes a great portable board for those that need that function, except that I'm not sure how sturdy it is for that purpose, being constructed of such light weight materials.

I carried one of those around in my laptop bag for awhile, no worries.
I would have liked it better if the right shift key was a bit wider....

[itlnstln]

I would think that it makes a great portable board for those that need that function, except that I'm not sure how sturdy it is for that purpose, being constructed of such light weight materials.

I carry mine in my laptop bag all the time, and I have had no issues.  It, and all Cherry keyboards, are sturdier than you might think.

[lal]

i don't have the 4100 in front of me, but the keys are definitely smaller than a normal keyboard's.  not just the top surfaces where your fingers contact, but the 'footprint' of the keys is smaller.

i agree, as a very occasional use keyboard where space is at a premium, it's fine.

I totally agree.  Another "problem" with the G84 is the shorter key travel and that the keys get stuck when hit off-center.  And the unusual layout for modifier keys and backtick/tilde.

[alpslover]

i compared a 4100 keycap with a 'full sized' keycap and surprisingly the 4100 keycap is only about 1mm smaller in each direction (both at the base and at the finger contact surface).  it's enough to make the 4100 feel noticeably cramped to me when typing, though.

[itlnstln]

i compared a 4100 keycap with a 'full sized' keycap and surprisingly the 4100 keycap is only about 1mm smaller in each direction (both at the base and at the finger contact surface). it's enough to make the 4100 feel noticeably cramped to me when typing, though.

That makes sense.  The difference is so small that I can't see the difference compared to my Filco, but I do feel like the keys are cramped.  That would explain why.

[lal]

i compared a 4100 keycap with a 'full sized' keycap and surprisingly the 4100 keycap is only about 1mm smaller in each direction (both at the base and at the finger contact surface).  it's enough to make the 4100 feel noticeably cramped to me when typing, though.

Only 1 mm per key, but this adds up.  From left of 'a' to right of '"' the G84 measures 19.8 cm whereas the M is about 20.9 cm so the G84 is "one finger" less in width.  It's even worse when including special keys: from left of CapsLock to right of Enter it's 28,6 cm for the M and only 24.7 for the G84.

[itlnstln]

Only 1 mm per key, but this adds up. From left of 'a' to right of '"' the G84 measures 19.8 cm whereas the M is about 20.9 cm so the G84 is "one finger" less in width. It's even worse when including special keys: from left of CapsLock to right of Enter it's 28,6 cm for the M and only 24.7 for the G84.

You know, now that I look at the keyboard as a whole, I can see the difference.  It's just that the keys, individually, don't seem any smaller.  Good stuff, lal, alpslover.

[lal]

You're welcome itslstln.  I care for layout very much.  The G84 would be a nice and affordable space saver if not for it's layout.  I could live with the short travel and could get used to having to hit the center of the keys.  But the layout with it's smaller overall size makes it extremely awkward to adjust to it.  I keep hitting the wrong keys all the time.

That would not be a problem if one used the G84 exclusively but I don't see that happen for me

[itlnstln]

I don't really have too much troube just typing on it, but using the modifier keys, arrows, and such is a little tricky.  Other than the overall spacing, it would be great for training your fingers so you don't fat-finger keys.

[keyb_gr]

Anyone tried the "XS Complete Keyboard" (G84-5200) yet? This seems to have a somewhat less cramped layout... but the build quality according to one user is pretty lousy.

[FKSSR]

That will be a rubber dome/membrane keyboard.  I would try to find a brown/blue cherry G80-3000 for a similar layout, personally.

[patrickgeekhack]

Welcome to GeekHack!

I have a 4100, and it does not have NKRO.  I think it has 2-KRO, if I remember correctly.  I am not an expert on the Cherry model number system, but I have a US version, and its full model number is G84-4100PPAUS /01.  From what I understand, these are intended to be used in point-of-sale applications, so things like NKRO would not be a priority.  the 4100 is a great keyboard for packing with a laptop, thouugh, which is what I do with mine.

itlnstln: Does this keyboard has a PS/2 or a USB connector?

[keyb_gr]

According to the Cherry website, xPA and xPM models are PS/2 only and xCA and xCM are combo USB w/ PS/2 adapter. The x = P models (like the PPA) with painted lettering are no longer listed, only x = L with lasered lettering there now.

[patrickgeekhack]

Thank you keyb-gr

[itlnstln]

itlnstln: Does this keyboard has a ps/2 or a usb connector?

ps2.

[patrickgeekhack]

ps2.

I wish it were also available with USB connector, but...

[itlnstln]

I wish it were also available with USB connector, but...

I think the newer ones have USB.  They also have the Windows keys as well.  Mine is a little older model.

[patrickgeekhack]

I think the newer ones have USB.  They also have the Windows keys as well.  Mine is a little older model.

Great. I'll look around and see what I can find.

[IBI]

That will be a rubber dome/membrane keyboard.  I would try to find a brown/blue cherry G80-3000 for a similar layout, personally.

Are you sure? With the G84 prefix I'd assumed it used ML switches.

[itlnstln]

Are you sure? With the G84 prefix I'd assumed it used ML switches.

This would be correct.