Author Topic: HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce  (Read 32986 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 13:58:19 »
For those of you that own or have tried both, which do you prefer personally... or are they close enough in all aspects that one just as good as the other?

I do understand that it's a matter of personal opinion, but that's what I hope to hear from each of you that have experience with both.  I have the HHKB Pro 2 on hand already, but I'm not sure that investing another huge chunk of cash on a specialty keyboard is going to make me any more satisfied.

Thanks for any replies.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 17:54:49 »
Thats a good question ozar. I have a HHKB and am interested in the Realforce too.
I am kind of leaning towards the HHKB if only because of the key layout; which is unique.
Outside of that, I am not sure of what going to the realforce gives me.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 18:46:36 »
Quote from: bigpook;27726
I am kind of leaning towards the HHKB if only because of the key layout; which is unique.
Outside of that, I am not sure of what going to the realforce gives me.

Exactly... I see no good reason for dropping another $300+ on a realforce if these boards are essentially the same other than key layout.  On the other hand, if enough people truly feel that the realforce is indeed better, it might be worth checking out further.  

Sometimes, I feel like we need a collection of "community boards" that belong to Geekhack, but any member can pay a deposit and have the board shipped to them for testing.  Once tested and returned, their deposit minus shipping charges can be returned.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 18:56:12 »
Quote from: ozar;27736
Exactly... I see no good reason for dropping another $300+ on a realforce if these boards are essentially the same other than key layout.  On the other hand, if enough people truly feel that the realforce is indeed better, it might be worth checking out further.  
.

That depends on how you define better. As a comparison, I have a dasIII and a filco tenless with blue cherries.  They are both blue cherry keyboards with the only difference, to me anyways, is the formfactor of the board itself. They both type like blue cherry keyboards.
I prefer the filco myself but the das works fine for me too.

The HHKB and Realforce have the same Topre switch, right?
So really, its more of a choice between which key layout you like best. At least it seems that way for me. Right now I am leaning towards the HHKB. If I want seperate arrow keys I have the model m mini to turn to. So I am thinking I am covered.

YMMV, the Realforce could turn out to be your daily driver, who knows?

I think the real question is how much do you like your HHKB?
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 19:06:38 »
I'm wondering if the topre switches feel different in the realforce vs the hhkb due to the more substantial base and footprint of the keyboard itself, the way the blue cherries sometimes feel different in different model keyboards.  I can probably adapt to any of the various layouts with a little practice, but the hhkb probably is the most sensible, at least in my own opinion.

I do love being able to have the keyboard and the mouse right in front of me rather than having the mouse far to the right side of a huge keyboard.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 19:13:35 »
Quote from: ozar;27740
I'm wondering if the topre switches feel different in the realforce vs the hhkb due to the more substantial base and footprint of the keyboard itself, the way the blue cherries sometimes feel different in different model keyboards.  I can probably adapt to any of the various layouts with a little practice, but the hhkb probably is the most sensible, at least in my own opinion.

I do love being able to have the keyboard and the mouse right in front of me rather than having the mouse far to the right side of a huge keyboard.


From what I understand, the Realforce have different weighted keys; so that needs to be considered. But I don't know about the different size having a difference. A bunch of people just got Realforces here, I need to reread those threads.
I tend to change my opinion over time, right now I am really liking the HHKB layout. At work I find my fingers looking for the Fn + arrow keys. Its kind of nice not having to leave the home row.
As for the mouse, I keep mine on the left hand side. Back in the day, when I used keyboards with numpads it always irritated me to have to reach that far for the mouse.

I suppose with the HHKB, mini's and tenless I could put the mouse back on the right side. But I have gotten used to mousing on the left, so there it stays.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 19:25:27 »
Quote
Its kind of nice not having to leave the home row.

Yes, that's the huge advantage that I find with the HHKB, as well.  With most other boards, your hands are flailing all over the board at times.

I've been thinking about trying the left-handed mouse thing, but the mouse that I really like is for right-handers, so moving it to the left would require a different model.  I recently spent a couple hundred dollars trying to find the mouse that's just right for me, so I'm reluctant to do that again.  Of course, this is also a problem with contemplating moving to a trackball mouse.

I've got to start making smarter decisions before buying because this keyboard/mouse fetish is costing a fortune!  :eek:  :)

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 19:29:02 »
Quote from: ozar;27745
Yes, that's the huge advantage that I find with the HHKB, as well.  With most other boards, your hands are flailing all over the board at times.

I've been thinking about trying the left-handed mouse thing, but the mouse that I really like is for right-handers, so moving it to the left would require a different model.  I recently spent a couple hundred dollars trying to find the mouse that's just right for me, so I'm reluctant to do that again.  Of course, this is also a problem with contemplating moving to a trackball mouse.

I've got to start making smarter decisions before buying because this keyboard/mouse fetish is costing a fortune!  :eek:  :)


Well, its something that needs to be rationalized. Depending on what your hobbies are and all. I have friends that are into boating. One fellow, spends 500 dollars a month on fuel.
Another guy is into fishing, forget about the boat, his collection of rods and lures is insane. I have no idea how much he has spent on that but it must be huge.
Another guy is into cars. Talk about a black hole for money.

I think I got off pretty good with a keyboard and mouse obsession : )
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 19:42:54 »
The main thing for me with either of these boards is the elimination of the number pad and they've both achieved that, so it might be that either would work fine for me, but if one board has any advantages over the other, I might be interested in that board.  Of course, in the end it all still boils down to personal opinion, so I might have to try both to know for sure.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 20:01:22 »
I would need to know what the advantages would be. While I like the key feel of the topre switches; the biggest draw for me is the key layout. It really does rock.

Ideally, I would be able to get a HHKB with BS or maybe blue cherry switches.
I could stop buying keyboards then.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline FKSSR

  • Posts: 529
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 21:51:55 »
would you really stop buying keyboards? :D

I think that the choice in getting a HHKB or Realforce has to do with whether you are more attracted to the switches or the layout...or both.  I personally would only want a Realforce, as I like the standard layout, especially with the arrow and delete, home, end... keys.

However, if you really dig the idea of the HHKB layout, that's your answer.

The same logic can be followed if you only care about the switches, first of all.
Add me on Steam | Twitter

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 23:24:23 »
My curiosity is not so much about should I buy one or the other because I already have the HHKB Pro2.  I'm more interested in finding out from those that have both which one they think is the best of the two.  Of course, I still realize that it's purely a matter of personal opinion, in each case.

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 23:58:06 »
As a person that has both, I enjoy typing on both and didn't have one ounce of buyers remorse when I bought my realforce. The reason I like my realforce is because the light switch feel really good because I'm not a forceful button pressor.

I have aways taken a "light" touch to pressing the keys almost to the point that it sometimes causes errors when I type on a membrane board, but it works out so well on the realforce due to the weighted keys (or that's what I tell myself anyway).

You are thinking of getting the realforce I would do it for the same reason you probably have gotten all your other boards...... they are just fun to type on due to the weighted keys (even though the difference isn't hugely noticeable).
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline wheel83

  • Posts: 189
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 00:01:52 »
how would you compare your boards with blue switches to the realforce 87u
I <3 BS

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 00:16:14 »
Quote from: wheel83;27797
how would you compare your boards with blue switches to the realforce 87u


Quite different actually. In my opinion the the realforce is more responsive. The reason I say that is because you only need enough pressure to put the key in action since the keys force curve feels like like a smoothed out membrane. With the blues, for obvious reasons you have to wait till you feel/hear the click.

To me, the blues feels a little "awkward" when you rapidly hit the same key successive times but again that's to my own taste. But at the same time the blues feel great when you get into key rolls which really doesn't happen that much for me since I use Dvorak layout instead Qwerty.

It's really a matter of opinion but I get a slight speed advantage on the topre switches and personally, I like the sound of them better.
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline rdjack21

  • Posts: 896
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 00:31:30 »
I'm on the other side I have a RealForce coming but am also thinking of getting the HHKB as well or maybe another RealForce. I guess it is going to depend on how well I like it. My biggest concern with the HHKB is the keyboard layout and weather or not I will like it.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 03:15:32 »
The layout on the HH is one of the best things about it. I think for an American user it should be even more of a simple transition for a Euro user.
I like the HH layout so much now that I set my US keyboards up the same.
Its a much better way to type for anyone with bad RSI like I have.
The BS position in particular is inspired.
Whenever I use a UK board now I hate how far I have to move for the BS key.
It can make my right wrist quite sore.

I will have my Realforce today so will post some comparisons to the HH in the reviews thread if I get the chance.

Laurie.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline kyamei

  • Posts: 140
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 03:20:55 »
I'm probably the only HHKB owner that prefers a standard layout.

Layout aside, I still prefer my Realforce.  I rather like the weighted keys and for some reason having a metal back plate seems to make the keys feel a bit different.
Topre:  Realforce 101, Realforce 87U, HHKB Pro 2
Cherry Brown:  Compaq MX11800
Cherry Blue:  Filco FKBN87MC/EB
Cherry Black:  K-202 numerical keypad
Alps Black:  AT101W, ABS M1
Alps White:  Focus FK-2001
Buckling Springs:  Model M 1391401, Lexmark Model M 82G2383, Model M2
Buckling Sleeves:  Unicomp Model M4
Futaba:  Sejin EAT-1010

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 03:23:14 »
The metal plate would make a difference for sure.
I am interested to see how it feels compared to the HH.
The blue cherry boards I have had have felt a lot better when plate mounted as opposed to PCB mounted.
Should be here soon :)
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 05:11:36 »
Just got it!
There are big differences in the key feel compared to the HH.
I will go into detail later with a comparative review if I get the chance.
Wish the sun would come out for some photos.

The weighted keys are subtle but I can notice it for sure. I think it is a very good idea.
The 55 in the escape feels slightly heavier than a cherry black and I would not like to have that weight over the whole board. I think it could be quite tiring.

The metal plate gives the keys a more defined bottom out than the HH. Also the sound is a higher in tone as the metal reverberates slightly. Not as an audible ring but just in the overall sound of the keys.
I think the metal is also what is making even the 45g keys feel lighter than the HH.
There was someone after a very light board. I think the standard realforce would do the job.

The board is very heavy compared to the very light (and all plastic HH)
I think the overall construction seems better too.
The top and bottom half do not match perfectly at the join on the HH but on the realforce they do.
I am very happy with it and look forward to using it extensively over the next few days.

Fingers crossed for sun so I dont have to set up a load of lamps!
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline kyamei

  • Posts: 140
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 05:18:56 »
Time to update that sig of yours.
Topre:  Realforce 101, Realforce 87U, HHKB Pro 2
Cherry Brown:  Compaq MX11800
Cherry Blue:  Filco FKBN87MC/EB
Cherry Black:  K-202 numerical keypad
Alps Black:  AT101W, ABS M1
Alps White:  Focus FK-2001
Buckling Springs:  Model M 1391401, Lexmark Model M 82G2383, Model M2
Buckling Sleeves:  Unicomp Model M4
Futaba:  Sejin EAT-1010

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 05:38:40 »
LOL oh yeah!
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 09:25:25 »
Quote from: lam47;27814
The metal plate would make a difference for sure.
I am interested to see how it feels compared to the HH.
The blue cherry boards I have had have felt a lot better when plate mounted as opposed to PCB mounted.
Should be here soon :)


Ahh I forgot to mention that as well. The metal plate on the base does make a difference in how it sounds. Personally, I think the HHKB sounds better.... but at the same time, the realforce feels more "solid".
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline FKSSR

  • Posts: 529
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 13:34:15 »
Yeah, I can't do that small backspace key.  I've said that too many times on different threads... :)
Add me on Steam | Twitter

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 10 April 2009, 13:50:05 »
Quote from: lam47;27827
There are big differences in the key feel compared to the HH.  I will go into detail later with a comparative review if I get the chance.

The weighted keys are subtle but I can notice it for sure. I think it is a very good idea.  The 55 in the escape feels slightly heavier than a cherry black and I would not like to have that weight over the whole board. I think it could be quite tiring.

The metal plate gives the keys a more defined bottom out than the HH. Also the sound is a higher in tone as the metal reverberates slightly. Not as an audible ring but just in the overall sound of the keys.
I think the metal is also what is making even the 45g keys feel lighter than the HH.

The board is very heavy compared to the very light (and all plastic HH)
I think the overall construction seems better too.  The top and bottom half do not match perfectly at the join on the HH but on the realforce they do.

I am very happy with it and look forward to using it extensively over the next few days.
I like the idea of a heavier keyboard.  Having added weight they seem more solid and less likely to move around on the desktop, and I'd think there would be less flex exhibited in most heavier keyboards.  I also think the weight (or solidity) plays a factor in the overall tone produced by the board.

Not owning a Realforce I can't really compare them, but do think the Realforce should have some advantages.  Of course, it's also very nice having the key layout and form factor that come with the almighty HHKB Pro 2.

Hope you end up enjoying the new purchase.!  :cool:

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 09:04:06 »
Quote from: ozar;28170
Not owning a Realforce I can't really compare them, but do think the Realforce should have some advantages.

I've gone ahead and ordered a Realforce 87U (55g all keys version), so I should be able to provide my own opinion to the original question of this thread in a few days.  It will need to be spectacular if it's going to beat the HHKB Pro 2 all around.

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 10:59:45 »
You will be happy and impressed Ozar.
Though picking your favourite will be tough.
For me I would like the HH to have a metal plate and weighted keys + a bit more attention to detail on the case moulding.

Then I would have my perfect keyboard.

That would be a one hell of an expensive mod!
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 11:08:03 »
Quote from: lam47;28315
For me I would like the HH to have a metal plate and weighted keys + a bit more attention to detail on the case moulding.

Perhaps those things will appear in the HHKB Pro 3.

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
Sorry, but I can't even answer my own question...
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 18 April 2009, 14:48:46 »
It's been just over a week since this thread was started and I now have my own Realforce 87U under my hands for comparing it with the HHKB Pro 2, but unfortunately I'm unable at this point to render an opinion on which (if either) is better than the other.  After happily hacking away for the last 5 or 6 hours on the 87U, it's apparent that they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I might write up a full review on the 87U at a later date and should I do so, I'll try to delve into some of the comparisons.

« Last Edit: Sat, 18 April 2009, 19:34:04 by ozar »

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
Topre Realforce 87U - Model: 87UKB55
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 16:16:24 »
Note to all:  I tried to post this in the Reviews Forum, but got a message saying that forum was not currently accepting new articles.  Perhaps this post can be moved there once it's accepting articles.  :smile:


I've been typing on this keyboard for a couple of days now, so decided it's time to make a few comments about it.






First off, after removing the board from its packaging, I was surprised by the sturdiness and overall weight of the keyboard.  The model 87UKB55 is a limited English/Korean version of the Topre Realforce 87U, and it has both, English and Korean characters on the keys.  In addition, all the keys on this board require 55g of force, whereas the fully English version of this board has multi-weighted keying consisting of 35g, 45g, and 55g, as I understand it.

The key switches on this keyboard definitely feel a bit stiffer than the "all 45g" switches used on the HHKB Pro 2.  In fact, I caught myself at first wondering if I had erred by getting the all 55g board, but after just a few hours of typing, it started to feel quite good, actually.  Of course, the first time that I type again on the HHKB Pro 2, all the keys will probably be bottoming out with each and every key stroke.

In my opinion, the overall key layout of this board is not as good as that of the HHKB Pro 2 because on the HHKB, all keys are within finger range of the home row.  On the 87U, your hands have to move around and away from the home row to some extent.  Certainly some users will always prefer having dedicated navigation keys, and that's something the HHKB Pro 2 does not offer.

Individual key presses on the 87U have a bit of a dry feel to them, somewhat like black ALPS switches do.  The keys are not sticking at all, but they feel like they could use a very light coat of oil on them, or at least that's the way they feel to me.  Any key pressed travels hardly any distance at all before the character is committed to the screen, and there is a definite relief of pressure at that point that can't be missed, but there is no audible click.  The only noises produced are from the key bottoming out, and/or returning to the top of its travel.  Typing on this board is quieter than it is on the HHKB Pro 2, and the sound of any key bottoming out is not as well pronounced.  I was happy to hear that the 87U spacebar is much quieter than it is on the HHKB Pro, as well.

Instead of having a row of LEDs (or lock lights) like most keyboards, the LEDs are embedded directly into the associated keycaps.  It certainly looks cool, but I'm not sure just yet if I like this feature, or not.  The LEDs themselves are a bright blue in color, but they are not as bright as the LEDs found on the Filco Majestouch keyboards.

The 87U has a very nice black matted texture on the top and bottom halves of the casing, and it doesn't appear that it would scratch easily, or show finger prints.  The keycaps have a much finer matted finish that is more of a charcoal color and they don't seem to smudge or show fingers prints, either.  The English and Korean lettering on the keys is barely visible to the naked eye, and it certainly shows up much better in photographs.  It's almost like using a keyboard with all blank keys.

I'm not a fan of Windows keys at all, so don't care much for the glossy bubbly look of those Windows keys that come on this keyboard.  They can be disabled through the use of DIP switches on the bottom of the board, but the ugly logos remain.

The USB cable is about 63" long and looks to be heavier duty than the USB cables on most modern keyboards.  It can be positioned from the bottom of the keyboard to exit either end of the board, or from the center.  Unfortunately, the USB cable is not detachable.  Those of you that like built-in USB ports might be saddened to find that this board has none.  It was no bother to me as never use them.

The four DIP switches on the bottom of the board can be used for setting Left Control/Caps Lock, Windows Key/Context Key, Numeric Keypad, and Firmware update mode.  These switches are all in the off position by default.

Accessories that came with the keyboard include three keylocks, a keycap puller, one extra Escape keycap (red), one extra Capslock keycap, and one extra Control keycap (for switching their positions on the board if desired).  The keyboard also came with a short instruction manual/guide, but it is written entirely in Korean.  No special drivers were needed for me to use the board under Linux.

There is a very narrow gap that I've noticed between the top and bottom halves of the keyboard casing.  When both halves on either end of the casing are squeezed with the fingers it makes that gap close up just a bit.  I'm not sure if this is the intended behavior, or if it's a design flaw, but it is very rare that I sit around squeezing the ends of my keyboards.

Topre apparently uses the same outer and inner boxes for all their 87U keyboards, because although my board has all 55g keys, both boxes say that it has 30, 45g, and 55g keys?

For anyone interested in the size and weight of the board, it is approximately 14" wide x 6.5" deep x 1.25" tall (at back of board without feet extended), and it weighs in at 41 ounces according to my digital scales.  The board was manufactured in Japan and was shipped out of Korea.

I'll need more time to determine what I really think of this keyboard, but given a couple of weeks, I feel pretty certain that I could fully settle in with it.  

Is it really worth what it costs?

I suppose each person will need to determine that for him/herself.

Is it better overall than the HHKB Pro 2?

Again, a matter of personal preference and opinion.  I've not managed to form my own opinion on this yet.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 16:41:38 »
Nice review ozar, that is one very nice looking keyboard. I have the HHKB and whats holding me back from getting the Topre is the keylayout on the HHKB. For better or worse, I associate the topre keys with the HHKB. If I want to use a full sized mini then I break out the model m. Its a tough choice, but once again, that is a good looking keyboard.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ssb

  • Posts: 54
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 17:13:51 »
Nice review ozar.
What you think of the overall build quality? I mean plastics, construction, key labels etc; Although it's too early to judge, do you think it's going to last longer than other boards without the usual wear off symptoms?
I'm asking because quality issues is my #1 complain from most of today's keyboards.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 April 2009, 17:18:35 by ssb »
Please excuse my poor English.

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 17:26:56 »
Quote from: ssb;86554
What you think of the overall build quality? I mean plastics, construction, key labels etc; Although it's too early to judge, do you think it's going to last longer than other boards without the usual wear off symptoms?
I'm asking because quality issues is my #1 complain from most of today's keyboards.

I've wondered about some of that myself.

The external build quality is extremely good, and perhaps better than any I've seen on any modern day keyboard, but never having had a board with Topre switches in my possession for a long period of time, I'm not sure if their switches will last as long as buckling springs, or cherry switches.  In addition, I can't tell just yet if the coating or lettering will begin to rub off the keys, but considering that it's so hard to see the lettering, I'm guessing it could begin to wear off and you might not notice.  I do hope the keys don't begin to develop shiny spots on them.

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 17:27:10 »
My opinion of the build quality is that it is the very best. And the plastics are better than those of the HH.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline ssb

  • Posts: 54
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 17:53:20 »
Thank you guys! I hope soon be able to test it myself. According to EMS mine just arrived at the airport and is awaiting customs clearance.
Please excuse my poor English.

Offline skriefal

  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Utah, USA
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 19:37:12 »
I too have one of the 55g Topre 87u keyboards.  Mine came from wheel83 by way of the Marketplace forum.  It's definitely a very well-made product, with better build quality than most other keyboards made in the last decade.  Even a bit better than my Filco 87-key -- but it should be, as the cost is more than double that of the Filco.  I agree with everything that ozar said above, including the key press feel, matte finish, and even the very slight gap between the top and bottom halves of the casing.  The gap is probably intentional; I wouldn't have noticed it if ozar had not pointed it out.

I don't have a HHKB to compare against, but I hope to change that eventually.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 April 2009, 19:40:37 by skriefal »

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 20:22:41 »
Quote from: bigpook;86553
ozar, that is one very nice looking keyboard.

Hey, thanks... I like the way it looks, too!

I'm thinking one of them would really go well with that new trackball mouse you just had delivered!  :nod:

Offline skriefal

  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Utah, USA
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 20:25:03 »
Quote
P.S. Anyone know why the CTRL key that came installed on the board has the LED window? After all, if the LED is showing then you flipped the DIP switch and should switch key caps as well. The spare CTRL key meant for the CapsLock position does not have an LED window. The engineers probably spend an entire team meeting making this momentous decision. Maybe a firmware flashing thing...?

Some users may wish to swap the key function, but not care about swapping the keycaps.  The lettering on the caps isn't readable under most common usage anyway.

Offline rdjack21

  • Posts: 896
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 21:46:39 »
I've had mine for a little over a week now (Weighted version). I'm really enjoying typing on it. I also just received the Filco tenkeyless on Friday and today was the first day I really gave it a work out (took it to work). I like the Filco and would have been very happy with it if it was not for the fact that I got the 87U first. After typing on the Topre switches the Cherry browns feel flat or more like a liner switch to me. Like every one else I really can't explain the feel of the Topre switches but they just feel very crisp and clean in comparison to the Cherry switches (both the browns and the blues). I will be keeping the Filco around as it is a good board. But my fingers are prefering the Topre switch.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 21 April 2009, 18:53:05 »
Quote from: ssb;86564
I hope soon be able to test it myself. According to EMS mine just arrived at the airport and is awaiting customs clearance.

It sounds like you should receive it just any day, then.  Do let us know how you like it!

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
Update: HHKB Pro 2 vs Realforce 87U
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 16:24:37 »
After typing on the Realforce 87U for a few days, I've now moved back to the Happy Hacking Pro 2, and the differences in overall sound and feel are pretty big between these two boards.

Don't get me wrong... I love the 87U, but I really think the HHKB Pro 2 is better suited to my own tastes because of the key layout, the smaller footprint, and for the feel and sounds coming from the keys themselves.  The fully detachable USB cable is a big plus, too.  It's still too early to know for certain, but I'm going to stay on this a few days, then return to the 87U for further experience with it.

Like I said early on in this thread, I've been thinking perhaps I should have purchased another HHKB Pro 2 instead of the 87U, but not having ever experienced the 87U at the time, I couldn't say for sure.

Hopefully, I'll come up with a solid favorite within the next few weeks and some good reasons for feeling that way.

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 17:19:13 »
I dont think you will :)
I keep going from one to the other and they do indeed have a lot of differences.
The Realforce feels very light compared to my HH. Yours would not I suppose as you have the 55 one. I would like to get a white 55 is such a thing exists :)
Anyway.
I tend to use the HH for any games as the mouse can sit so close. But when I need to do a lot of typing I find that the lighter keys and slightly more solid feel make me prefer the Realforce.
But then I start trying to press a non existent fn key to get an arrow out of ;['/ :) Indicating that the HH layout has been subconsciously picked as the default.

I don't think I will be able to pick a favourite for a good while yet. Though I do personally feel the Realforce has the edge in terms of quality it is a very close call.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 17:30:53 »
I'm thinking that the perfect keyboard (at least for me) might be one with the key layout of the HHKB Pro 2, and the build quality of the Realforce 87U.  I'd like to have that board in the white version, with both lettered and blank keycaps, and with a detachable USB cable.  I wouldn't complain if the 2 USB ports were on there, although I don't really use them.

Offline lam47

  • Posts: 688
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 18:05:49 »
That is exactly what I want to the letter!
HH III  please :) Make the USB ports 2.0 as well! And do it weighted and non weighted. Oh and do a light version with all 30g switches.
AND AND I want one in all purple like the wasd keys. I would sell a kidney for it then.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline Manyak

  • Posts: 295
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 18:16:58 »
Quote from: lam47;87002
That is exactly what I want to the letter!
HH III  please :) Make the USB ports 2.0 as well! And do it weighted and non weighted. Oh and do a light version with all 30g switches.
AND AND I want one in all purple like the wasd keys. I would sell a kidney for it then.


I think each key should be a different crayola color beginning with the letter that the key is supposed to be, but instead of the letters put the color names like "Purple Mountain Majesty" on them. :smash:
Currently Owned:
Filco FKBN104MC/EB - Model M 1390131 \'86 - Model M 1391401 NIB - Unicomp Endurapro NIB - iRocks KR-6230 - Compaq MX-11800 - Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2 - Cherry ML-4100 - Cherry MY-8000-something - Dell AT101W (Black) - ABS M1 - Siig Minitouch - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys NIB - Cherry G80-3494LYCUS-2 - Deck Legend

Offline xsphat

  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 19:47:44 »
No every key should have a company logo on it in their color scheme and then they should give them away free like business cards and mall fliers. The keys would have to be nonremovable though.

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 23 April 2009, 22:40:37 »
Quote from: lam47;87002
That is exactly what I want to the letter!
HH III  please :) Make the USB ports 2.0 as well! And do it weighted and non weighted. Oh and do a light version with all 30g switches.
AND AND I want one in all purple like the wasd keys. I would sell a kidney for it then.

I'd kind of like to try an all 50g HHKB Pro but I'd want it to have all the other things we mentioned above.  I wonder though if they were to put a steel plate in it, would it change the way the keys feel like it does on the Realforce?  I'm betting that it would.

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 24 April 2009, 11:07:25 »
Quote from: ripster;87035
Hmm.. with AutoHotkey this could do everything the HHKB could do...

Ouch... I think I'm gonna stick with the HHKB Pro2!  That key layout looks terrible after you study it for a few minutes.

Offline Manyak

  • Posts: 295
HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 24 April 2009, 11:11:02 »
Quote from: ozar;87068
Ouch... I think I'm gonna stick with the HHKB Pro2!  That key layout looks terrible after you study it for a few minutes.


The fact that all the keys are lined up is bad enough on its own
Currently Owned:
Filco FKBN104MC/EB - Model M 1390131 \'86 - Model M 1391401 NIB - Unicomp Endurapro NIB - iRocks KR-6230 - Compaq MX-11800 - Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2 - Cherry ML-4100 - Cherry MY-8000-something - Dell AT101W (Black) - ABS M1 - Siig Minitouch - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys NIB - Cherry G80-3494LYCUS-2 - Deck Legend

Offline ozar

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 352
Update regarding the HHKB Pro 2 vs Topre Realforce 87U
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 01 May 2009, 14:48:07 »
After having both, the HHKB Pro 2 and the Realforce 87U keyboards for a while now, I've finally made a decision as to which I prefer for my own needs.

They both are certainly fantastic keyboards due to the Topre capacitive switches that are used in them, and for their overall build quality, but I personally slightly favor the HHKB Pro 2 over the Realforce 87U because of the smaller footprint, and because of the key layout that is used.  In the end, those two things matter the most to me since the switches themselves are the same.  That leaves the HHKB Pro 2 the winner.

Having said that, the Realforce 87U is the more solidly built of the two boards, so I'd be very reluctant to let either of them go up for sale or trade, as I'll probably be switching between the two of them for a very long time to come.  :cool: