Need a non-Paypal means of payment for Non-US resident

[berserkfan]

Are there any reasonable convenient and usable means of paying people if you're not a US resident and don't use Paypal?

For now, let's exclude Bitcoin and other semi-established cryptocurrencies. These have fluctuating values, security problems, etc. Let's stick with payment systems that are generally respected and have been around for at least a few years without major scandals, especially hacking scandals.

Please add your input here!

[Dubsgalore]

Western Union?

[TheSoulhunter]

Amazon payments?

[eth0s]

You can always do a bank wire transfer of funds anywhere in the world.  You just need the bank routing number and account number of the account you want to send money to.  However, the banks will charge a wire transfer fee, that may cost more than the item you are buying, depending on the banks and countries involved.  The bank fees usually go down as the amount transferred goes up.  So you may start with $50 fee, which will go down as you approach a six figure transfer.  Why?  Because banks rip you off is why.

[bazh]

I once buy something from Germany and the seller only accepted payment through bank-wired transfer, then I found out VN doesn't allow you to send money outside the country for personal trading purpose so I have to get a friend in Italia made the tranfer for me after I sent him the money through Paypal :/

[JaccoW]

Western Union?

While I know Western Union is a legit business, most people I know associate it with Nigerian Princes.

Bank wire is free all over the world for me but some banks charge the receiver anyway. GON warned me about that when I tried to pay him. Similarly, anything involving credit-cards is a no-go for me. I don't own a credit card and don't need one where I live. :/

I guess it really depends on the country of the person in question.

[Lanx]

skrill/moneybookers

honestly i would never deal with anyone that could NOT get a paypal account, they are either really not legit or live in one of the banned non paypal places.

from a quick google search it's these 28 countries (as of 2013)
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Ghana, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Monaco, Moldova, Montenegro, Myanmar, Pakistan, Paraguay, Saint Lucia, South Sudan, Sudan, Syria, Timor-Leste, Uzbekistan and Zimbabwe

[Novus]

You can't use skrill/moneybookers if you are in the US though so it's not great if you have to pay somebody in the states.

[Dubsgalore]

Western Union?

While I know Western Union is a legit business, most people I know associate it with Nigerian Princes.

Bank wire is free all over the world for me but some banks charge the receiver anyway. GON warned me about that when I tried to pay him. Similarly, anything involving credit-cards is a no-go for me. I don't own a credit card and don't need one where I live. :/

I guess it really depends on the country of the person in question.

Almost everyone in the US has this obsession with Paypal and has this insane amount of trust with it.
Almost everyone that i've dealt with outside of the US don't even have paypals, and prefer bank wires. There's practically no security in that, so it's all up to trust, but non-US residents often prefer that.

Western Union is a step up to that, and I usually offer that if they only want to deal with Bank wires and often they say yes. I literally had zero trust for anyone over the internet before geekhack...but like I always say, geekhack has taught me a TON

[Novus]

US bank wiring isn't as "sophisticated" though.

[jalaj]

I've been paid via gift card codes. A potential problem with this form of payment is if the gift cards were purchased with stolen credit cards, then the vendor may revoke your gift cards. But there's always some form of risk with any payment method, so YMMV.

[nar]

skrill/moneybookers

honestly i would never deal with anyone that could NOT get a paypal account, they are either really not legit or live in one of the banned non paypal places.

from a quick google search it's these 28 countries (as of 2013)
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Ghana, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Monaco, Moldova, Montenegro, Myanmar, Pakistan, Paraguay, Saint Lucia, South Sudan, Sudan, Syria, Timor-Leste, Uzbekistan and Zimbabwe

There is also the places were paypal is relatively useless but still allowed. Like in Japan you can't use it to send personal payments at all. Only possibility is personal bank/CC to business account with a 3% fee, contrast with a bank electronic transfer which can frequently be done for free and can transfer money to anyone.

[berserkfan]

Western Union?

While I know Western Union is a legit business, most people I know associate it with Nigerian Princes.

Bank wire is free all over the world for me but some banks charge the receiver anyway. GON warned me about that when I tried to pay him. Similarly, anything involving credit-cards is a no-go for me. I don't own a credit card and don't need one where I live. :/

I guess it really depends on the country of the person in question.

Gasp

where do you live? You can't be an American if you don't have a credit card!!!

[berserkfan]

I'm incredibly fed up with Paypal for many reasons and sick of being screwed over by them. It isn't the first time, too.

That said, it is easy for scammers to get new paypal accounts. Just set up new bank accounts and link them. You can't say someone without a paypal account is not legit.

I don't want to deal with these scums anymore. It so disgusting that they have a monopoly. WTF, Amazon is not a monopoly, Google is not a monopoly, why should paypal practically be a monopoly. Is it really so hard to make money that nobody else wants to enter and offer similar services?

skrill/moneybookers

honestly i would never deal with anyone that could NOT get a paypal account, they are either really not legit or live in one of the banned non paypal places.

from a quick google search it's these 28 countries (as of 2013)
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Ghana, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Monaco, Moldova, Montenegro, Myanmar, Pakistan, Paraguay, Saint Lucia, South Sudan, Sudan, Syria, Timor-Leste, Uzbekistan and Zimbabwe

[Bravoecho]

You claim that you need an alternative to paypal but then dismiss bitcoin for no apparent reason.  Bitcoin is the perfect solution here.

[Matt3o]

https://www.paymill.com maybe

[berserkfan]

You claim that you need an alternative to paypal but then dismiss bitcoin for no apparent reason.  Bitcoin is the perfect solution here.

For no apparent reason?

You haven't been following the news, have you? You certainly haven't read my OP.

Bitcoin has tons of problems. The most serious and notorious is the collapse of Mt. Gox and hacking of lots of people's bitcoins. And after Mt. Gox, several exchanges admitted their coins had been stolen also. It's as if Citibank collapsed and Wells Fargo and several other local banks nearly collapsed.

In general the entire Bitcoin world hasn't proven itself; it's fragile and has fluctuating values and poor security and irresponsible exchange operators.

[Lanx]

what business are you in that you're constantly getting screwed over by paypal and paypal users?

i've received and done thousands with paypal for years with no serious issue, if there's an issue i go through paypal channels if that doesn't work i go through my credit protection. if a seller refunds/steals i go through paypal litigation/investigation, and i deal in services/virtual goods.

[fohat.digs]

I'm incredibly fed up with Paypal for many reasons and sick of being screwed over by them. It isn't the first time, too.

In my experience Paypal is the good side of the ebay/Paypal hegemony. I complain about ebay fees, which are rapacious, but Paypal has generally been good.

During the last 12 years, they have locked up my account and/or put payments received "on hold" for 21 days, on at least 3 separate occasions, but other than that, they have been great. They keep nagging me to "renew" my current credit card, which I have, but still they have let me continue uninterrupted for half a year.

I am philosophical enough to let occasional glitches slide if the underlying experience works properly.

[Lanx]

(double post, don't know why)

[Lanx]

They keep nagging me to "renew" my current credit card, which I have, but still they have let me continue uninterrupted for half a year.

this is true for me too, it's so annoying to log in everyday and see that warning (b/c it makes me think theres a real warning)

[eth0s]

I tried the PayPal once.  Did not like.  Got neither pay nor a pal.

[Bravoecho]

You claim that you need an alternative to paypal but then dismiss bitcoin for no apparent reason.  Bitcoin is the perfect solution here.

For no apparent reason?

You haven't been following the news, have you? You certainly haven't read my OP.

Bitcoin has tons of problems. The most serious and notorious is the collapse of Mt. Gox and hacking of lots of people's bitcoins. And after Mt. Gox, several exchanges admitted their coins had been stolen also. It's as if Citibank collapsed and Wells Fargo and several other local banks nearly collapsed.

In general the entire Bitcoin world hasn't proven itself; it's fragile and has fluctuating values and poor security and irresponsible exchange operators.

A problem with currency exchanges is not a problem with bitcoin.  If it were the same thing, then a problem with Best Buy would be a problem with Televisions.

[jonathanyu]

google wallet?

[fohat.digs]

A problem with currency exchanges is not a problem with bitcoin. 

Fluctuating value?

I would avoid that like the plague.

[berserkfan]

fohat, let me bring you up to speed on this bitcoin thing, and also to expose the amazing ignorance of some geekhackers who speak with such confidence but seem not to know the facts.

all bitcoin is transacted and stored on exchanges, unlike gold or physical goods. so the reliability of the electronic exchanges is very important. you can't store bitcoin on your own hard disk. many exchanges are sleazy or simply not up to the standards of regular banks in storing their electronic monies. in fact one bitcoin operator just committed suicide in Singapore after her exchange was hacked.

there is no international or industry standard regulation for the exchanges. in contrast, the financial industry has a deep suspicion of bitcoin, and it is banned in some countries.

bitcoin's value vs USD has fluctuated incredibly so there is no way for a seller and buyer to agree firmly on the value.

in the past 1 year, bitcoin's value has gone from 100 to 1100 to 400 now.
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/bitstampUSD#rg360ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

and bitcoin is already considered the best of the cryptocurrencies. there are a lot others whose names I can't remember, and which would almost certainly not be widely accepted.

oh, and Lanx, paypal has a good reputation for protecting those who transact in electronically transmitted goods. not surprisingly, you are happy. I use paypal/ebay to buy vintage electronics, and a lot are much less satisfactory.

A problem with currency exchanges is not a problem with bitcoin. 

Fluctuating value?

I would avoid that like the plague.

[JaccoW]

Western Union?

While I know Western Union is a legit business, most people I know associate it with Nigerian Princes.

Bank wire is free all over the world for me but some banks charge the receiver anyway. GON warned me about that when I tried to pay him. Similarly, anything involving credit-cards is a no-go for me. I don't own a credit card and don't need one where I live. :/

I guess it really depends on the country of the person in question.

Gasp

where do you live? You can't be an American if you don't have a credit card!!!

Plot Twist!

I am not, I am from The Netherlands. Debit cards are my preferred means of payment.
From just buying a candy bar to larger purchases. Online or offline.
Much better with a realtime overview of how much money I have left.

[fohat.digs]

bitcoin's value vs USD has fluctuated incredibly so there is no way for a seller and buyer to agree firmly on the value.

So why is this not a reason to avoid it?

[Bullveyr]

I am not, I am from The Netherlands. Debit cards are my preferred means of payment.
From just buying a candy bar to larger purchases. Online or offline.
Much better with a realtime overview of how much money I have left.

So you are one of those annoying people who are always in front of the line who pay a candy bar with their debit card.

I prefer to pay cash, I only use my debit card if I have not enough cash in my pocket (and to get cash from the ATM).

[JaccoW]

I am not, I am from The Netherlands. Debit cards are my preferred means of payment.
From just buying a candy bar to larger purchases. Online or offline.
Much better with a realtime overview of how much money I have left.

So you are one of those annoying people who are always in front of the line who pay a candy bar with their debit card.

I prefer to pay cash, I only use my debit card if I have not enough cash in my pocket (and to get cash from the ATM).

That's because you are Austrian.
I found Germans doing the same thing when I lived there. A very cash centered way of living. Of course it also means you are SOoL after bank closing time and you run out of money, especially on a night out. Plenty of money but not enough cash.

Often I don't even carry any cash with me and just the six cards I need in one of these.
And just for the record, with broadband everywhere I am often faster with a debit card than people who pay cash.
So there.

Finland is even worse than I am. I was there a few months ago and the connection speeds and system were so fast that you are done the moment you enter your pin.

But we are threadhacking Berserkfan's question here.

[Bullveyr]

I'm not SOoL after bank closing hour, that's what ATMs are for.

Is it really normal in the NL that some random small bar accepts debit cards?

PS: You're still better than the old lady who thinks she has the exact amount and searches in her wallet for ages until she finally accepts that she doesn't.

PPS: I hope Berzerker doesn't mind that much.

[JaccoW]

I'm not SOoL after bank closing hour, that's what ATMs are for.

Is it really normal in the NL that some random small bar accepts debit cards?

PS: You're still better than the old lady who thinks she has the exact amount and searches in her wallet for ages until she finally accepts that she doesn't.

PPS: I hope Berzerker doesn't mind that much.

Good luck finding an ATM if you are in a cool underground club and the nearest ATM is 1 hour walking away and you have no money for a cab.

Small bars, shops, kiosks, the company restaurant, public transport ticket machines, some vending machines and every store that has a modicum of customers.
In fact I cannot even think of a place where I cannot use a debit card from the top of my head. It's everywhere.
Alright, so maybe street vendors. But even they sometimes have a wireless version.

Homeless people. But they get one from the government on which a certain amount is deposited each month.

If you cannot pay by card at a store it's usually a good indicator that they are about to close down shop is my experience.

For online payment we have a system called iDeal.
Note that it offers no protection against fraud, BUT because hardly ever anything happens unless people fall for phishing scams it is considered extremely safe. At the same time the merchant gets no personal information from you such as credit card data.
It's realtime payment independent of the bank being used.

[berserkfan]

I am not, I am from The Netherlands. Debit cards are my preferred means of payment.
From just buying a candy bar to larger purchases. Online or offline.
Much better with a realtime overview of how much money I have left.

So you are one of those annoying people who are always in front of the line who pay a candy bar with their debit card.

I prefer to pay cash, I only use my debit card if I have not enough cash in my pocket (and to get cash from the ATM).

That's because you are Austrian.
I found Germans doing the same thing when I lived there. A very cash centered way of living. Of course it also means you are SOoL after bank closing time and you run out of money, especially on a night out. Plenty of money but not enough cash.

Often I don't even carry any cash with me and just the six cards I need in one of these.
And just for the record, with broadband everywhere I am often faster with a debit card than people who pay cash.
So there.

Finland is even worse than I am. I was there a few months ago and the connection speeds and system were so fast that you are done the moment you enter your pin.

But we are threadhacking Berserkfan's question here.

Nonsense! Any input is good input. We're sharing our life experiences here, and as far as I have seen, there isn't any viable means of paying people internationally outside of paypal. Everything else is too flawed.

And yeah, I love the Austrian way. They spawned a school of economics that's essentially anti-debt.

[scarlatch]

Are there any reasonable convenient and usable means of paying people if you're not a US resident and don't use Paypal?

For now, let's exclude Bitcoin and other semi-established cryptocurrencies. These have fluctuating values, security problems, etc. Let's stick with payment systems that are generally respected and have been around for at least a few years without major scandals, especially hacking scandals.

Please add your input here!

Prepaid debit/credit card?  This was the solution that a lot of crowdfunding websites suggested people to use when they wanted to donate money for projects but didn't want to use PayPal. 

[iri]

Nonsense! Any input is good input.

okay then. i pay for almost everything with my debit card. i rarely ever need cash.

[berserkfan]

Nonsense! Any input is good input.

okay then. i pay for almost everything with my debit card. i rarely ever need cash.

with your name and your original location (above 60 degrees) I thought you were Russian.

(Nationality matters because in some countries like the US, usually it's the weird and eccentric people or the gun loving, big government fearing folks who stay away from credit cards. Whereas in some countries debit cards are standard.)

[iri]

with your name and your original location (above 60 degrees) I thought you were Russian.

you won't believe. i'm an ethnic russian and a citizen of russia. living at 59.958915 degrees north, though.

(Nationality matters because in some countries like the US, usually it's the weird and eccentric people or the gun loving, big government fearing folks who stay away from credit cards. Whereas in some countries debit cards are standard.)

in russia it's the black economy that matters. still a **** ton of people use debit cards. and i can tell that it is much more convenient to pay with one instead of making a cashier look for change for 1367.33 RUB when you give them a 5000 RUB bill.

[berserkfan]

with your name and your original location (above 60 degrees) I thought you were Russian.

you won't believe. i'm an ethnic russian and a citizen of russia. living at 59.958915 degrees north, though.

(Nationality matters because in some countries like the US, usually it's the weird and eccentric people or the gun loving, big government fearing folks who stay away from credit cards. Whereas in some countries debit cards are standard.)

in russia it's the black economy that matters. still a **** ton of people use debit cards. and i can tell that it is much more convenient to pay with one instead of making a cashier look for change for 1367.33 RUB when you give them a 5000 RUB bill.

judging from the latitude and the liberal-sounding term of lesbiantown, you must be living in St Petersburg.

does going to other 'less civilized' parts of Russia scare you? If I were Russian I would certainly not be comfortable taking a road trip to some places within Russia... heard that the authorities are very scary

[dorkvader]

(Nationality matters because in some countries like the US, usually it's the weird and eccentric people or the gun loving, big government fearing folks who stay away from credit cards. Whereas in some countries debit cards are standard.)

I don't have a credit card.

Also: you called it. I'm a god fearing, gun toting, government hating, type of folk.

---
I'm interested in prepaid debit cards, How would you buy one? Are they available in different countries?

[fohat.digs]

(Nationality matters because in some countries like the US, usually it's the weird and eccentric people or the gun loving, big government fearing folks who stay away from credit cards. Whereas in some countries debit cards are standard.)

I don't have a credit card.

Also: you called it. I'm a god fearing, gun toting, government hating, type of folk.

---
I'm interested in prepaid debit cards, How would you buy one? Are they available in different countries?

I have bought them at Target in $25, $50, and $100 denominations.

It costs $5 (that is where they make their money), you buy a "blank" card on the rack and they "charge it up" at the cash register.

My experience is that it is not as foolproof as "real" plastic, but works most places (including online).

[Lanx]

hell you could do this on a rebate card. most rebates now are sent to you via, pre-paid visa debit. ppl have used these cards (when all the cash is used up) to sign up for "free offers, just need a credit card, will not charge you".

pretty sure you can call a number and add to the balance too.

[iri]

does going to other 'less civilized' parts of Russia scare you?

no. with an axe i'm usually the scariest person around. if not, then i undress.

[berserkfan]

does going to other 'less civilized' parts of Russia scare you?

no. with an axe i'm usually the scariest person around. if not, then i undress.

A St.Petersburgher is scarier than a Chechen, a Dagestani or a Tuvan? Sounds like a New Yorker boasting he can outride a Montana cowboy, outshoot a West Virginian and outhunt an Alabaman.

The only Petersburgher who scares anybody is Vladimir Putin, and he's only scary if you're reading Western propaganda and happen to live in the ex-soviet space. [Ie I don't buy the BS that he's going to start a new cold war or invade anybody else.] In fact I find Putin LESS scary than any US president, because Putin is LESS likely than any American president to send drones to assassinate people in foreign countries without going through due process of law.

[welsinki]

I am not, I am from The Netherlands. Debit cards are my preferred means of payment.
From just buying a candy bar to larger purchases. Online or offline.
Much better with a realtime overview of how much money I have left.

So you are one of those annoying people who are always in front of the line who pay a candy bar with their debit card.

I prefer to pay cash, I only use my debit card if I have not enough cash in my pocket (and to get cash from the ATM).

That's because you are Austrian.
I found Germans doing the same thing when I lived there. A very cash centered way of living. Of course it also means you are SOoL after bank closing time and you run out of money, especially on a night out. Plenty of money but not enough cash.

Often I don't even carry any cash with me and just the six cards I need in one of these.
And just for the record, with broadband everywhere I am often faster with a debit card than people who pay cash.
So there.

Finland is even worse than I am. I was there a few months ago and the connection speeds and system were so fast that you are done the moment you enter your pin.

But we are threadhacking Berserkfan's question here.

 

[iri]

A St.Petersburgher is scarier than a Chechen, a Dagestani or a Tuvan?

oh, tuvans.