Leading Edge DC-2014 with Blue ALPS on eBay

[intelli78]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Leading-Edge-Computer-AT-Keyboard-Model-DC-2014-/191174432700?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c82e257bc

Price is a bit high, but seller is accepting offers.

[intelli78]

Looks like somebody got it with an offer.

Another one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Leading-Edge-DC-2014-Clickity-Computer-Keyboard-/131194560901?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e8bce2185

[fohat.digs]

Always irritating when they will not tell you what the winning offer was.

[nuclearsandwich]

The winning offer was $75. I bet it could be brought lower.

[Honq]

Do all (usable) blue alps go for around that price?

[intelli78]

I would say they're on the high side but not unreasonable.

[ebacho]

The one I got a while ago was for $70 shipped.  So a bit higher than average but as intelli said, not unreasonable.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Do all (usable) blue alps go for around that price?

Well, that thing is XT, so "usable" is relative.

[fohat.digs]

Nobody buys these things except as switch donors, so you are talking about something in the neighborhood of half a dollar per switch, or a little more.

These old ones often have doubleshot caps, but they are often very slick and yellow.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Including shipping, and assuming 100 switches, it's $.85 per switch for the original one in this thread.

Matias switches are $.30 each with 200 for $60 - including shipping.

You could use a soarer on them though, but yeah mostly just donor use.

[fohat.digs]

Theoretically a Soarer's would work, but I tried it on 2 different ones - and got nada.

Do any of the modern "simplified Alps clones" enjoy a good reputation?

The clicky green ones I tried were abominable.

[jwaz]

I would say they're on the high side but not unreasonable.

That's straight unreasonable hype pricing. Don't let the convenience of a high price lure you away from the thrill of the hunt.

[intelli78]

I would say they're on the high side but not unreasonable.

That's straight unreasonable hype pricing. Don't let the convenience of a high price lure you away from the thrill of the hunt.

You can find nearly anything for cheap if you are willing to wait long enough or hunt hard enough. My point is that these are similar in price to what's been selling on eBay lately. 

[fohat.digs]

I have spent nearly 3 years looking for these things. For a while, on the rare occasion that they appeared on ebay, they sold fairly cheap (~$30-40 + shipping) but in 2014 I would say that $60-80 shipped is about as good as you should expect to do. If you get them cheaper, pat yourself on the back.

[jwaz]

You can find nearly anything for cheap if you are willing to wait long enough or hunt hard enough. My point is that these are similar in price to what's been selling on eBay lately. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Leading-Edge-DC-2014-Clickity-Computer-Keyboard-/141265067617?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20e40dde61

It's pretty much because of this and sellers checking the sold history.

If you're buying something for donors it's worth it to do more research so you can find something more common.

How sick would a blue alps Focus be? With the dust cover and everything.

* jwaz drools on his hhkb

[fohat.digs]

How sick would a blue alps Focus be? With the dust cover and everything.

The Focus is not the best platform for that level of money, time, and effort, even though the dust cover is neat.

Keep looking for a Northgate Onmikey.

[jwaz]

How sick would a blue alps Focus be? With the dust cover and everything.

The Focus is not the best platform for that level of money, time, and effort, even though the dust cover is neat.

Keep looking for a Northgate Onmikey.

Oh, I should have one coming soon

But I want a complete Focus too

[False_Dmitry_II]

Theoretically a Soarer's would work, but I tried it on 2 different ones - and got nada.

Do any of the modern "simplified Alps clones" enjoy a good reputation?

The clicky green ones I tried were abominable.

Interesting that the soarer's won't work on those.

The only alps clones I've used were some form of XM alps. They aren't awful but they aren't awesome.

Matias switches are great though. Better than any of the clicky white complicated alps I've used.

[fohat.digs]

Interesting that the soarer's won't work on those.

The only alps clones I've used were some form of XM alps. They aren't awful but they aren't awesome.

Matias switches are great though. Better than any of the clicky white complicated alps I've used.

What are the clicky ones called? They are all the same weight, I suppose?

If they interchange with "classic" old Alps I will want to try them.

[False_Dmitry_II]

http://matias.ca/switches/click/

Same weight as what?

All of his are pin compatible. It was very intentional.

[ebacho]

Theoretically a Soarer's would work, but I tried it on 2 different ones - and got nada.

Do any of the modern "simplified Alps clones" enjoy a good reputation?

The clicky green ones I tried were abominable.

The DC-2014 I got worked pretty well with a Soarer, so other than layout, it's not too bad.

[jacobolus]

I have spent nearly 3 years looking for these things. For a while, on the rare occasion that they appeared on ebay, they sold fairly cheap (~$30-40 + shipping) but in 2014 I would say that $60-80 shipped is about as good as you should expect to do. If you get them cheaper, pat yourself on the back.

I got a very dirty one for $45 shipped in January. I haven’t seen any others that cheap in the last 5 months.

[aegrotatio]

I wrote Matias about his switches.  He said they tooled them very carefully and as a result people think they are, quite possibly, the ultimate ALPS switches on the market.

I wrote him because the clicky switches are only on the mini Macintosh models and I wanted them on the mini PC models.  He said they won't do that because there is no market for them on mini keyboards.  Likewise with non-clicky mini Macintosh models.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yeah, that's why mine are just in a Dell that I previously never used. Although even if they had a model I would want to buy I probably would have done that first anyway, just to cheaply test them out, because I already had the Dell and the caps I've put on it.

I think we'll end up waiting for other makers to notice they exist and aren't worse than cherry simply by not being cherry. Because they were first to have RGB capable switches, and would be awesome in a backlit gaming keyboard, and other layouts. I'd want a TK-only layout with a split 0 so that the inverse-T arrow cluster can be there. Given that Matias is working on thick PBT caps, as well as PBT caps *for* backlit, mayhaps they are just waiting for those to complete.

[nuclearsandwich]

I wrote Matias about his switches.  He said they tooled them very carefully and as a result people think they are, quite possibly, the ultimate ALPS switches on the market.

I wrote him because the clicky switches are only on the mini Macintosh models and I wanted them on the mini PC models.  He said they won't do that because there is no market for them on mini keyboards.  Likewise with non-clicky mini Macintosh models.

You could always swap switches to get the board of your desire.

[jacobolus]

I wrote [Matias] because the clicky switches are only on the mini Macintosh models and I wanted them on the mini PC models.  He said they won't do that because there is no market for them on mini keyboards.  Likewise with non-clicky mini Macintosh models.

You could always swap switches to get the board of your desire.

Yeah. Actually, this is one of the easier swaps you can do; I’m pretty sure the plastic housing is identical for both types of switches, so you can just buy a box of loose Matias switches ($50 + $10 shipping per 200 switches), and then you can pretty easily open up the switches on the keyboard and the loose switches and swap the tactile/click leaves (also the dampened vs undampened sliders if you like). No soldering required.

Edit:
Also, I’m pretty sure the click/tactile leaves in Matias clicky switches are similar enough in shape to be interchangeable with old Alps switches, so anyone who has white/orange/black/salmon/cream Alps switches and wants to make them clicky or tactile (or “recondition” ones that have lost some of their oomph after 20 years) might be able to just swap in the metal leaves from Matias switches. Add some lubricant while you’re at it and the result should be very nice.

[False_Dmitry_II]

I think you're right about that, I've had complicated alps in pieces enough to see how identical the Matias ones look through the transparent plastic. But I'd go further than that, if I were putting stuff in from Matias switches for that sort of reason I'd also replace the spring and slider. The only thing left would be to pull up on the actual switchplate contacts a bit to unbend it some while I was at it.

I wrote Matias about his switches.  He said they tooled them very carefully and as a result people think they are, quite possibly, the ultimate ALPS switches on the market.

I wrote him because the clicky switches are only on the mini Macintosh models and I wanted them on the mini PC models.  He said they won't do that because there is no market for them on mini keyboards.  Likewise with non-clicky mini Macintosh models.

They are certainly the best Alps being currently produced, no contest.

If you have a spare non-Monterey Blue Siig Minitouch, you could solder them into that, because all Alps, Alps clones, and Matias switches are pin compatible. Might be good enough for now.

[jacobolus]

I think you're right about that, I've had complicated alps in pieces enough to see how identical the Matias ones look through the transparent plastic. But I'd go further than that, if I were putting stuff in from Matias switches for that sort of reason I'd also replace the spring and slider. The only thing left would be to pull up on the actual switchplate contacts a bit to unbend it some while I was at it.

No, the slider is a slightly different shape (because the housing is a slightly different shape), and the springs in Matias switches are a different weight and a bit longer. I prefer the springs from (for instance) orange Alps.

Hopefully I can use HaaTa’s force gauge to make some measurements of the various springs, sometime relatively soon.

[nuclearsandwich]

I think you're right about that, I've had complicated alps in pieces enough to see how identical the Matias ones look through the transparent plastic. But I'd go further than that, if I were putting stuff in from Matias switches for that sort of reason I'd also replace the spring and slider. The only thing left would be to pull up on the actual switchplate contacts a bit to unbend it some while I was at it.

No, the slider is a slightly different shape (because the housing is a slightly different shape), and the springs in Matias switches are a different weight and a bit longer. I prefer the springs from (for instance) orange Alps.

Hopefully I can use HaaTa’s force gauge to make some measurements of the various springs, sometime relatively soon.

Let me know if I can help with this science. Though your Alps collection puts mine to shame.

[fohat.digs]

I want a definitive evaluation as to the subjective feel of modern clicky Mathias switches relative to vintage complicated blue Alps.

If they are very close, then I think that the hub-bub over harvesting old blues might die down.

At $60 shipped/200 switches that is considerably cheaper than you could hope to buy ancient 1980s keyboards and have them shipped out of town, you would not have to harvest the switches, and they would be brand new!

Win - Win - Win

[nuclearsandwich]

I want a definitive evaluation as to the subjective feel of modern clicky Mathias switches relative to vintage complicated blue Alps.

If they are very close, then I think that the hub-bub over harvesting old blues might die down.

At $60 shipped/200 switches that is considerably cheaper than you could hope to buy ancient 1980s keyboards and have them shipped out of town, you would not have to harvest the switches, and they would be brand new!

Win - Win - Win

I will let you know when I get some blue Alps. I've got the Matias clickies already.

[Hak Foo]

One of the things that was a big deal about the Matias switch is that it's supposed to be built with tighter tolerances.  Many "classic" ALPS switches were listed as, say, 70+/-25 grams force; his are supposed to be +/- 5 grams.  That in and of itself might make it difficult to compare-- a vintage Blue ALPS might be 65g nominal force, but as little as 40 or as much as 90 in practice, and still make its way through quality control.

[nuclearsandwich]

One of the things that was a big deal about the Matias switch is that it's supposed to be built with tighter tolerances.  Many "classic" ALPS switches were listed as, say, 70+/-25 grams force; his are supposed to be +/- 5 grams.  That in and of itself might make it difficult to compare-- a vintage Blue ALPS might be 65g nominal force, but as little as 40 or as much as 90 in practice, and still make its way through quality control.

I'll have 83 of them to contrast with 110 Matias switches. Since this is a subjective test Foghat's asking for I don't think it'll be much of an issue.

[fohat.digs]

I have 2 keyboards with vintage complicated blue Alps that are exquisite.

I know from experience that "simplified" white Alps are much inferior to the originals, and the only experience that I have had with modern Alps were the green XMs in a Ducky which were abominable.

Without having used a Matias board, I really have no way to know. But, if they are close to the old vintage blue Alps in feel and weight, I would be very interested.

[jacobolus]

I want a definitive evaluation as to the subjective feel of modern clicky Mathias switches relative to vintage complicated blue Alps.

If they are very close, then I think that the hub-bub over harvesting old blues might die down.

If you know what complicated white Alps switches feel like, that’s quite close to the feel of Matias clicky switches; if you pull the two click leaves out, they look extremely similar in shape. Blue Alps is noticeably less force, both from the click leaf (which is a slightly different shape) and from the spring (which is lighter).

If you want to experience Matias switches, you can by a batch of 5 for $6 shipped from http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=52

[fohat.digs]

Blue Alps is noticeably less force, both from the click leaf (which is a slightly different shape) and from the spring (which is lighter).

That is what I am afraid of. Even though I am a buckling spring man, I really like the light touch.

Tactility is supremely important to me, but I still like a light feel.

[nuclearsandwich]

The specific keyboard in this post originally went for $70 and shipping. When I got it, it did not actually work contrary to the description. The seller agreed to let me keep it with a partial refund so the end price was $35 and shipping.

[jacobolus]

The specific keyboard in this post originally went for $70 and shipping. When I got it, it did not actually work contrary to the description.

You sure it didn’t work? It’s an XT keyboard; did you try with a computer that can handle XT protocol, or use a Soarer’s converter, or what?

[Also, considering everyone who buys these keyboards just uses them as switch donors, I also personally would feel a bit bad talking the price down afterward unless the switches themselves were badly worn out or broken, but that’s just me. Ebay sellers are under incredible pressure to keep up their positive feedback record, so it’s pretty easy for a buyer to take advantage. Then again, if it’s advertised as working and it doesn’t work, maybe anything’s fair. Really silly for the original auction to say “great working keyboard with AT connectivity”.]

[nuclearsandwich]

The specific keyboard in this post originally went for $70 and shipping. When I got it, it did not actually work contrary to the description.

You sure it didn’t work? It’s an XT keyboard; did you try with a computer that can handle XT protocol, or use a Soarer’s converter, or what?

Positive. Soarer's converter that I tested with another keyboard in XT mode.

Edit: Slight clarification. The seller listed it as working without actually testing it. This is why I challenged it and received a partial refund.

[False_Dmitry_II]

That's when you list it as-is, but say it was working the last time it was used [decades ago].

[fohat.digs]

Ebay's rules are clear but interpretation tends to be fuzzy.

Selling something as "new" or "used" implies that it is in proper working condition without need of any repairs or adjustment to be used as intended.

Otherwise, it should be sold as "for parts or repair" according to the rules.

We are fuzzy here because there is always the "well, it worked on my box so it should work on yours" argument that is very hard to quantify. But ebay almost always sides with buyers and against sellers in these cases.

[False_Dmitry_II]

In ebay's rules, the description is the contract of sale. I list everything as used unless I know it to be broken/unusable because I couldn't make it work. A good example would be when I was going to use someone's old gaming motherboard for something else and it no longer worked. Something like that is the only time I use "for parts or repair".

In this listing it explicitly states that the keyboard works perfectly well, and in AT, no less. It was wrong on both counts. The fact that it was listed as "used" doesn't matter.

[jacobolus]

Oh, I totally agree the seller screwed up here. :-)