DSA caps and keytravel?

[fishfalcon]

Do DSA keycaps "raise" the actuation point on the switch/keycap? I've been trying to get used to only actuating my mx green switches without bottoming out, but the process is a clumsy one... I'd hope that DSA caps provide a more instantaneous actuation, but have no idea... otherwise I don't think I'm a cherry switch guy

[rowdy]

No.  THe switch mechanism is not affected by the choice of keycap.

Except in rare circumstances where the keycap interferes with the vertical motion of the switch.

[fishfalcon]

that's disappointing, i was hoping that the lower profile of the keycap would lessen the distance to the actuation pt... i switch between my thinkpad whose keyboard actuates pretty much once depressed and my wasd tkl... it's annoying going between the two...

[Pacifist]

that's disappointing, i was hoping that the lower profile of the keycap would lessen the distance to the actuation pt... i switch between my thinkpad whose keyboard actuates pretty much once depressed and my wasd tkl... it's annoying going between the two...

O rings or silicon balls in the switch would work.

[daerid]

Those won't actually change the actuation distance, only the post-actuation travel. Which might or might not be acceptable.

[jacobolus]

otherwise I don't think I'm a cherry switch guy

Have you tried Alps switches? They tend to have a higher actuation point than Cherry MX.

[fishfalcon]

that's disappointing, i was hoping that the lower profile of the keycap would lessen the distance to the actuation pt... i switch between my thinkpad whose keyboard actuates pretty much once depressed and my wasd tkl... it's annoying going between the two...

O rings or silicon balls in the switch would work.

heh, my CODE came with o-rings, but they made the post-actuation feel mushy to me, so i removed them... i like the tactile click, but it's hard to consistently get without 'warming up' with the keyboard every day. it's becoming more of a nuisance than anything else. i really have to say that mx green switches might be stiffer blues, but they should never be compared in any way to buckling springs... an apples to oranges comparison.

when buying the CODE, i was considering the matias mini quiet pro... so I'm either going to try that next, or get a fc660c. I want to try all the switches eventually

[tbc]

jailhouse blues?

[Razor Lotus]

um... razer greens??

[ideus]

The module of the springs may help you more than any other characteristic of the switch to get an equilibrium with your personal typing force and avoid bottoming. Try the higher modules first, and get softer ones later until you find the one that allows you to just float over the keyboard. Also clears may serve you better in that regard due to their more pronounce bump.
 
 

[handystack]

DSA caps allow for maximum post-actuation travel, which can be very helpful for typing without bottoming out.

[tbc]

^ what makes you say that?

[Oobly]

DSA caps allow for maximum post-actuation travel, which can be very helpful for typing without bottoming out.

Actually, I have yet to see a keycap that reduces the travel without the addition of orings. You will bottom out with all of them, the cap doesn't affect the stem travel at all.

The only ways to reduce distance to actuation (AFAIK) are to add something beteen the top of the stem sides and the upper switch housing or in the case of the clicky switches, to add something between the 2 pieces of the slider (see Jailhouse Blues for an example).

MX Clears have springs which increase the resistance significantly before bottoming out (steeper angle on a force diagram) which can help prevent bottoming out or at least make it easier not to.

[Pacifist]

What about putting hard foam on the inside of the switch?

[Razor Lotus]

What about putting hard foam on the inside of the switch?

That's just like those dampeeners isn't it? Which function similar to O rings?

[fishfalcon]

The module of the springs may help you more than any other characteristic of the switch to get an equilibrium with your personal typing force and avoid bottoming. Try the higher modules first, and get softer ones later until you find the one that allows you to just float over the keyboard. Also clears may serve you better in that regard due to their more pronounce bump.

i thought about replacing the springs, but that leads to more questions:
1) are mx greens *actually* just blues with mx black springs?
2) what springs offer forces between the black/green and brown/red/blue varieties?

I'm not going to get rid of this keyboard, but i will probably switch to another and tinker with this one... I want to replace all the leds with red ones and paint the back plate red, so if i'm going to take it apart, i might as well give a spring mod a try

regarding the razer switch suggestion: i saw a review on anandtech that argued that the difference in actuation distance is really very negligible. at the end of the day, there will still be a noticeable travel before actuation... i think razer just tried to make the switches technically different by some quanitifiable amount so they could call them their own... i could be wrong though.. any razer green users out there?

[ideus]

The module of the springs may help you more than any other characteristic of the switch to get an equilibrium with your personal typing force and avoid bottoming. Try the higher modules first, and get softer ones later until you find the one that allows you to just float over the keyboard. Also clears may serve you better in that regard due to their more pronounce bump.

i thought about replacing the springs, but that leads to more questions:
1) are mx greens *actually* just blues with mx black springs?
2) what springs offer forces between the black/green and brown/red/blue varieties?

I'm not going to get rid of this keyboard, but i will probably switch to another and tinker with this one... I want to replace all the leds with red ones and paint the back plate red, so if i'm going to take it apart, i might as well give a spring mod a try

regarding the razer switch suggestion: i saw a review on anandtech that argued that the difference in actuation distance is really very negligible. at the end of the day, there will still be a noticeable travel before actuation... i think razer just tried to make the switches technically different by some quanitifiable amount so they could call them their own... i could be wrong though.. any razer green users out there?

MX switches patent is expired. Anyone can use the design, or modify it. Thus, razer can manufacture it as designed, or with any alterations in the specs.
 
Read the many reviews and reports available on switches to find out the differences in the springs they are using, some are in the 40s, red/brown, while others are in the 50s, black/clears, I think. At the end, if you are going to keep your switches you can replace springs at will. There was a recent GB for gold plated ones in a variety of modules, you can buy the ones that you think may fit your needs better and make some tests, until you find your sweet spot.

[False_Dmitry_II]

The slider of MX greens are just blues. I don't know what exactly the spring they used is, other than it is stronger. I agree that their linear extra strength has nothing to do with comparisons to buckling springs.

If all you've used is some different MX and BS, then you may not be an MX guy - you'd have to try some other stuff first.

[Oobly]

What about putting hard foam on the inside of the switch?

That's just like those dampeeners isn't it? Which function similar to O rings?

Those foam dampeners and orings fit outside the switch and are for when the switch bottoms out. We are talking about putting pieces inside the switch for when releasing the key.

[ideus]

I think the title of the thread does not reflect the actual OP concern, which is not the travel of the key per se, but how to avoid bottoming out. Again, the point is not the geometry, that may somehow altered adding O-rings, or dampeners, but the force against the fingers during typing, so it leads again to the springs, that are what the switch has as a way to get it to its original position, and that produces the force for the user to type on. Module of the springs depends on size, coils per length, and wire module. In theory you can get any force within a range, using the same overall length of the spring, and the same diameter of the coil, modifying the coils "density" and the wire.

[handystack]

^ what makes you say that?

There are no crossbars reinforcing the stem mount on DSA caps.  Bottoming out a key with a DSA cap on it means striking the inside of the bottom of the switch housing with the switch stem, not striking the top of the switch housing with the cap's stem mount crossbraces.

Actually, I have yet to see a keycap that reduces the travel without the addition of orings. You will bottom out with all of them, the cap doesn't affect the stem travel at all.

Now I need some science on this.  I have noticed that o rings have no effect on DSA caps because of their lack of crossbraces.  Because of this I have assumed that most keys bottom out at the point that the crossbraces meet the switch housing, and that DSA caps allowed more travel than crossbraced caps.  I don't have any spare crossbraced keycaps to cut or grind in half right now.  Has anyone done this already, or do I need to conduct my own experiments?

[Skull_Angel]

Now I need some science on this.  I have noticed that o rings have no effect on DSA caps because of their lack of crossbraces.  Because of this I have assumed that most keys bottom out at the point that the crossbraces meet the switch housing, and that DSA caps allowed more travel than crossbraced caps.  I don't have any spare crossbraced keycaps to cut or grind in half right now.  Has anyone done this already, or do I need to conduct my own experiments?

With DSA you need to get fat o-rings, double-up on/use multiple of the thinner ones or use something similar to dental bands that will allow you to wrap around the stem twice to get the necessary girth needed to bridge the gap from the underside of the cap to the top of the housing; I use dental bands because they're dirt cheap and tend to last longer then cheaper 0-rings (digging out deteriorated o-rings from switches is no good). But, I absolutely love o-ring modded DSAs on MX Reds for gaming.

[Oobly]

^ what makes you say that?

There are no crossbars reinforcing the stem mount on DSA caps.  Bottoming out a key with a DSA cap on it means striking the inside of the bottom of the switch housing with the switch stem, not striking the top of the switch housing with the cap's stem mount crossbraces.

Actually, I have yet to see a keycap that reduces the travel without the addition of orings. You will bottom out with all of them, the cap doesn't affect the stem travel at all.

Now I need some science on this.  I have noticed that o rings have no effect on DSA caps because of their lack of crossbraces.  Because of this I have assumed that most keys bottom out at the point that the crossbraces meet the switch housing, and that DSA caps allowed more travel than crossbraced caps.  I don't have any spare crossbraced keycaps to cut or grind in half right now.  Has anyone done this already, or do I need to conduct my own experiments?

Some thick Cherry profile caps have crossbars that come really close to the case, but they still don't touch. It's the sides of the slider hitting the bottom of the case that stops the key moving further or in the case of the clicky switches, the pin of the slider hitting the bottom of the little pipe it sits in. Here is a thread all about it: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.0

Different profile keycaps need different thickness orings to have the same effect. That's one of the reasons I came up with the trampoline mod (a piece of rubber in the little tube the pin of the slider goes in), since it's independent of the keycaps.

[Razor Lotus]

Now I need some science on this.  I have noticed that o rings have no effect on DSA caps because of their lack of crossbraces.  Because of this I have assumed that most keys bottom out at the point that the crossbraces meet the switch housing, and that DSA caps allowed more travel than crossbraced caps.  I don't have any spare crossbraced keycaps to cut or grind in half right now.  Has anyone done this already, or do I need to conduct my own experiments?

With DSA you need to get fat o-rings, double-up on/use multiple of the thinner ones or use something similar to dental bands that will allow you to wrap around the stem twice to get the necessary girth needed to bridge the gap from the underside of the cap to the top of the housing; I use dental bands because they're dirt cheap and tend to last longer then cheaper 0-rings (digging out deteriorated o-rings from switches is no good). But, I absolutely love o-ring modded DSAs on MX Reds for gaming.

Wow man i just tried this. Now I'm stuck. i like the feel of O-rings but I miss the bare feel without O-rings... tough choice

[handystack]

Some thick Cherry profile caps have crossbars that come really close to the case, but they still don't touch. It's the sides of the slider hitting the bottom of the case that stops the key moving further or in the case of the clicky switches, the pin of the slider hitting the bottom of the little pipe it sits in. Here is a thread all about it: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.0

Nice! It looks like this issue has already been tested, and my assumption was incorrect. Thanks for the link.

With DSA you need to get fat o-rings, double-up on/use multiple of the thinner ones or use something similar to dental bands that will allow you to wrap around the stem twice to get the necessary girth needed to bridge the gap from the underside of the cap to the top of the housing; I use dental bands because they're dirt cheap and tend to last longer then cheaper 0-rings (digging out deteriorated o-rings from switches is no good). But, I absolutely love o-ring modded DSAs on MX Reds for gaming.

I may just have to try that.  Also I wonder if I am able to perceive the added weight of the ineffectual o rings on my DSA caps...

[Skull_Angel]

I may just have to try that.  Also I wonder if I am able to perceive the added weight of the ineffectual o rings on my DSA caps...

I don't notice any weight difference personally, but I do enjoy the softer landing when I get into heated key spamming, haha.

note; I did notice the difference in feel going from thin [stock] ABS caps to Double-Shot ABS DSA, teh o-rings were almost unnecessary because the shock from bottoming out did not feel any where near as harsh as it did on the stock thin caps.

[Razor Lotus]

I may just have to try that.  Also I wonder if I am able to perceive the added weight of the ineffectual o rings on my DSA caps...

I don't notice any weight difference personally, but I do enjoy the softer landing when I get into heated key spamming, haha.

note; I did notice the difference in feel going from thin [stock] ABS caps to Double-Shot ABS DSA, teh o-rings were almost unnecessary because the shock from bottoming out did not feel any where near as harsh as it did on the stock thin caps.

What O-rings are you using btw?

I'm using Imsto's fat ones

[Skull_Angel]

I may just have to try that.  Also I wonder if I am able to perceive the added weight of the ineffectual o rings on my DSA caps...

I don't notice any weight difference personally, but I do enjoy the softer landing when I get into heated key spamming, haha.

note; I did notice the difference in feel going from thin [stock] ABS caps to Double-Shot ABS DSA, the o-rings were almost unnecessary because the shock from bottoming out did not feel any where near as harsh as it did on the stock thin caps.

What O-rings are you using btw?

I'm using Imsto's fat ones

Some cheap as dirt orthodontic bands, think I got a 200 count for $1.30 (USD). They're great, I like them much better than WASD's first run of 50A o-rings (they started cracking after 4 months too).

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

i thought about replacing the springs, but that leads to more questions:
1) are mx greens *actually* just blues with mx black springs?
2) what springs offer forces between the black/green and brown/red/blue varieties?

1) the spring in greens is really close to the spring in blacks. The green spring is slightly stiffer from the tests I've seen.
2) for stock springs, clear are in between. They are lighter at the top then increase in force faster than other springs. There are also custom springs. Originative http://www.originativeco.com has several options. Also, Sprit (and others) ran a GB recently. He might have some stock leftover.

[Razor Lotus]

i thought about replacing the springs, but that leads to more questions:
1) are mx greens *actually* just blues with mx black springs?
2) what springs offer forces between the black/green and brown/red/blue varieties?

1) the spring in greens is really close to the spring in blacks. The green spring is slightly stiffer from the tests I've seen.
2) for stock springs, clear are in between. They are lighter at the top then increase in force faster than other springs. There are also custom springs. Originative http://www.originativeco.com has several options. Also, Sprit (and others) ran a GB recently. He might have some stock leftover.

That info on the clear springs, that's interesting. I thought the increase in force was part of the switch mechanism itself and the switch has a linear force throughout

[Oobly]

i thought about replacing the springs, but that leads to more questions:
1) are mx greens *actually* just blues with mx black springs?
2) what springs offer forces between the black/green and brown/red/blue varieties?

1) the spring in greens is really close to the spring in blacks. The green spring is slightly stiffer from the tests I've seen.
2) for stock springs, clear are in between. They are lighter at the top then increase in force faster than other springs. There are also custom springs. Originative http://www.originativeco.com has several options. Also, Sprit (and others) ran a GB recently. He might have some stock leftover.

That info on the clear springs, that's interesting. I thought the increase in force was part of the switch mechanism itself and the switch has a linear force throughout

This thread has more info on the springs: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0

This diagram shows the different springs and how the force increases with compression:

[Razor Lotus]

Oh so it's still linear. From your post I was expecting it to be non-linear.

Thanks for the info!

[False_Dmitry_II]

It's still linear, it just has a much steeper slope, so it ramps up alot.

I still bottom when typing on clears, but they are too strong for me to hold down keys during gaming.

[Oobly]

It's still linear, it just has a much steeper slope, so it ramps up alot.

I still bottom when typing on clears, but they are too strong for me to hold down keys during gaming.

<fanboyism>
62g ErgoClears with trampoline mod.... trampolines dampen the landing and 62g springs enhance the tactile bump and are light enough for prolonged pressing... Mmmmm, good.
</fanboyism>

[False_Dmitry_II]

It's still linear, it just has a much steeper slope, so it ramps up alot.

I still bottom when typing on clears, but they are too strong for me to hold down keys during gaming.

<fanboyism>
62g ErgoClears with trampoline mod.... trampolines dampen the landing and 62g springs enhance the tactile bump and are light enough for prolonged pressing... Mmmmm, good.
</fanboyism>

Are those weak enough that the upstroke is more tactile than down, like it is with red/brown/blue springs?

[Melvang]

Oh so it's still linear. From your post I was expecting it to be non-linear.

Thanks for the info!

That force curve is for the springs alone outside of the switch.  In the switch the force curves will not be straight.

[Oobly]

It's still linear, it just has a much steeper slope, so it ramps up alot.

I still bottom when typing on clears, but they are too strong for me to hold down keys during gaming.

<fanboyism>
62g ErgoClears with trampoline mod.... trampolines dampen the landing and 62g springs enhance the tactile bump and are light enough for prolonged pressing... Mmmmm, good.
</fanboyism>

Are those weak enough that the upstroke is more tactile than down, like it is with red/brown/blue springs?

Not really... I would have to say they're about equal now, when pressing slowly. They have a nice "pop" to them.