How Did This Get Past EK's QC?

[OnTheBrink]

I mean, look at the "T" key. It is clearly crooked (it looks worse in person).

Also, the LED light on the Insert key doesn't seem to work. Which makes things worse since now I probably have to send the keyboard back instead of just getting a replacement "T" key. 

[Pacifist]

I don't think its EK's QC,I think its leopold's. And sometime QC fails

[SpAmRaY]

Check your dip switch settings for the LED

[esko997]

Check your dip switch settings for the LED

This, I also thought mine was broken, but its actually a DIP switch setting.

[jalaj]

Press the FN key + Q key to test activating your insert LED.
It swaps out the ESC key for tilde (~).
Should be in the manual.
Check this guy's review:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42825.0

Though yeah, the crooked T would be irksome. I had or have a slightly crooked modifier on one of my RF87u's and that is aesthetically annoying (OCDing here). But it's very time consuming for EK to thoroughly inspect everything, so expecting every product to 100% perfect is unrealistic. You can try reaching out to him about the crooked T issue and see what are your options.

[OnTheBrink]

I'll test it when I get home.

To address some of the replies. EK does their own QC which is why they seal it with their own sticker. Also, the manual that came with the keyboard was not in English.

Thanks for the replies though. I thought it might be something with the dip switch. Hopefull Ill just need to replace the key.

I did research the dip switch setting (since the manual wasn't in English) so I could properly switch the Caps Lock and CTRL. I didn't see anything about the insert LED.

I'll probably report back. Thanks again.

[Sniping]

Like one of the previous posters said, you light up the Insert LED with Fn plus Q, you can't toggle the LED by pressing Insert, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with the DIP switch.

Take off the keycap on the T key and take a picture of the stem of the switch??

[OnTheBrink]

FN-Q worked.

As for the key, it actually seems to be the switch. However, when I take the key off I cannot notice anything being slanted or crooked. Perhaps it is the pieces that holds the key within the switch. I tried switching around some keys and putting a different letter in there and it is crooked also. However, you can see it more with the "T" (the key supposed to be there) because of the shape of the letter.

Odd indeed. 

[jalaj]

Either the topre switch or the topre plunger is defective. I'll guess it's the topre switch case that has a slight defect and is causing the plunger to be off the normal axis. Easy to resolve if u have a spare topre switch to swap out, or just swap it to another non primary key so it's not as bothersome.

[daerid]

If you're going to be that picky about the "T", then I would suggest not looking too closely at the "F", the "G", and the "H" (not to mention the "C"), as they're all just as skewed.

[jalaj]

damn, maybe the steel mounting plate has precision issues.

[neunelfer]

Pretty sure this is fairly common with HHKBs too. It's probably more obvious on printed keys.

[rowdy]

It looks faulty - send it to me and I will dispose of it safely

[sleepy916]

I've looked at that "T" for a while and I can't tell...I guess I'm not looking hard enough. 

[intelli78]

Dunno man, looks like a non-issue to me. Post another pic, zoomed out.

[dorkvader]

Yeah, it looks like the keycap in the picture.

I wouldn't worry about it. I have a few keys on my topre that are crooked like that.

Everyone raves about topre quality, but I'm just not seeing it in the 5 or so examples I've looked at.

[jabar]

I don't think EK examines every keyboard that comes in. they are sealed products from the manufacturer.

[Pacifist]

And when they do, brian takes the red esc out

[Polymer]

I don't see it...aren't all of the recent Leopolds slightly italicized? 

[Beca]

like you said, the actual keycap printing of T isn't crooked, it's the keycap itself. tbh i don't think it's necessary to fret over it or send the keyboard back, but it's your time/money~

[Novus]

And when they do, brian takes the red esc out

hahaha

[tbc]

plastic + heat + local temps + age of equipment (not counting everything an actual engineer would know of)

**** happens.

it's going to take ALOT of work every keycap perfectly straight.

[neunelfer]

plastic + heat + local temps + age of equipment (not counting everything an actual engineer would know of)

**** happens.

it's going to take ALOT of work every keycap perfectly straight.

But..what about Cherry? I've never seen crooked keys on MX switches.

[OnTheBrink]

Show Image

If you're going to be that picky about the "T", then I would suggest not looking too closely at the "F", the "G", and the "H" (not to mention the "C"), as they're all just as skewed.

It really isn't that big of a deal (even though it looks worse in person). I thought the Insert LED wasn't working as well.

I am a bit of a perfectionist but still, it's noticeably more crooked than all of the keys including the ones you've mentioned. Nevertheless, like I said, not too concerned about it.

[daerid]

But..what about Cherry? I've never seen crooked keys on MX switches.

I see crooked key switches on cherry boards all the damn time. Don't think I've ever owned a cherry board that didn't have at least one crooked key. Still, it's always barely noticeable, and you can't even tell when typing on it anyways.

[mougrim]

****. Now I'll begin to look for crooked swithces on all my Cherry boards 

But I'll probably won't find any

[tbc]

plastic + heat + local temps + age of equipment (not counting everything an actual engineer would know of)

**** happens.

it's going to take ALOT of work every keycap perfectly straight.

But..what about Cherry? I've never seen crooked keys on MX switches.

.
I've seen them.

The flaw is absolutely tiny, like fractions of a degree off and it's only noticeable when you're starting down from straight above it.

Never bothered me enough to complain

[Sniping]

****. Now I'll begin to look for crooked swithces on all my Cherry boards 

But I'll probably won't find any

They're there for sure. It can also be caused by keycaps. I believe that the moldings of the F-row of BSP dyesubs makes keycaps that are slightly crooked, which is why there's high demand for OG Cherry Dyesubs in Korea and here somewhat as well.

[strict]

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

[neunelfer]

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Just because someone has a higher attention to detail than you doesn't mean they have unrealistic expectations. It's pretty obvious to me as well.

You can see that the Y is tilted slightly to the right and the H quite a bit to the left on this HHKB. Look at the difference in spacing between H and J on the bottom compared to the top.

[OnTheBrink]

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Wildly unrealistic expectations? Scrolling down would reveal since the Insert LED wasn't broken, I said it's not a big deal.

Nevertheless, last I checked, GH was a place for keyboard enthusiasts and people who are a bit over the top about their keyboards. I created a thread to start a discussion, not to be judged which some of these replies seem to be insinuating (along with selective reading).

This is all without mentioning the keyboard was over $220 and I will continue going through life expecting to get what I paid for.

[dorkvader]

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Just because someone has a higher attention to detail than you doesn't mean they have unrealistic expectations. It's pretty obvious to me as well.

You can see that the Y is tilted slightly to the right and the H quite a bit to the left on this HHKB. Look at the difference in spacing between H and J on the bottom compared to the top.

Show Image

Things like that are immediately noticeable to me. Fortunately, they don't bother me much.

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Wildly unrealistic expectations? Scrolling down would reveal since the Insert LED wasn't broken, I said it's not a big deal.

Nevertheless, last I checked, GH was a place for keyboard enthusiasts and people who are a bit over the top about their keyboards. I created a thread to start a discussion, not to be judged which some of these replies seem to be insinuating (along with selective reading).

This is all without mentioning the keyboard was over $220 and I will continue going through life expecting to get what I paid for.

Ah, and it is! Such a community has sprung up here, there is quite the diversity. It seems everyone's opinion is different!

I think the price doesn't matter. In things like this, in order to correct such flaws, you would have to do some seriously expensive things. Perhaps if the price were $10,000 / keyboard or more then a company could afford to hand inspect every aspect of the process and afford computerized plastic cooling algorithms and dynamic moulding processes. Machining them by hand individually out of plastic might work.

Anyway, I think if you twist the key, you will see that while the "resting position" of that key is not in the same spot as the ones near it, it is within the boundaries. I would call that keyboard within spec and happily type on it (and I have!) but i'm not really that picky about such things.

What matters to me more is the internal design and construction. The principles of operation and how they are implemented. The functional aesthetics take significant precedence over non-functional aesthetic aspects.

[daerid]

"What you pay for" is completely subjective. I've dropped more money than I care to admit on keyboards (including quite a few Topre boards), and none of the pictures in this thread qualify as "low quality", in my experience and opinion. That's probably different than somebody else's.

Key switches, whether Cherry MX, Alps, or Topre, have moving parts, and therefore there are certain tolerances that they need to have in order for the pieces to move. Take any key switch, gently rotate the cap, and you'll see that pretty much every key on every mechanical board you own will have a certain amount of rotational play. That doesn't mean that it's low quality. It just means that the level of precision manufacturing required to completely eliminate that would be much, much, much more expensive than just $220.

PS: Whenever you express a strong opinion, be prepared for others to do the same in response

[daerid]

lol damnit... DV beat me to the punch

[Puddsy]

MY realforce does that all over because it's been modded. I don't really notice it.

[sonano]

My Insert and Delete keys are like that too, one twisted to the left and the other twisted to the right. Probably the worst place to have them crooked, but oh well, it's something I noticed on day one and I didn't think too much of it.

[neunelfer]

"What you pay for" is completely subjective. I've dropped more money than I care to admit on keyboards (including quite a few Topre boards), and none of the pictures in this thread qualify as "low quality", in my experience and opinion. That's probably different than somebody else's.

Key switches, whether Cherry MX, Alps, or Topre, have moving parts, and therefore there are certain tolerances that they need to have in order for the pieces to move. Take any key switch, gently rotate the cap, and you'll see that pretty much every key on every mechanical board you own will have a certain amount of rotational play. That doesn't mean that it's low quality. It just means that the level of precision manufacturing required to completely eliminate that would be much, much, much more expensive than just $220.

PS: Whenever you express a strong opinion, be prepared for others to do the same in response

I don't think he referred to it as being low quality - I certainly didn't.

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

[OnTheBrink]

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Just because someone has a higher attention to detail than you doesn't mean they have unrealistic expectations. It's pretty obvious to me as well.

You can see that the Y is tilted slightly to the right and the H quite a bit to the left on this HHKB. Look at the difference in spacing between H and J on the bottom compared to the top.

Show Image

Things like that are immediately noticeable to me. Fortunately, they don't bother me much.

I seriously couldn't even tell anything was wrong in the picture you posted. If I worked QC somewhere and saw that I would pass it. I think you just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Wildly unrealistic expectations? Scrolling down would reveal since the Insert LED wasn't broken, I said it's not a big deal.

Nevertheless, last I checked, GH was a place for keyboard enthusiasts and people who are a bit over the top about their keyboards. I created a thread to start a discussion, not to be judged which some of these replies seem to be insinuating (along with selective reading).

This is all without mentioning the keyboard was over $220 and I will continue going through life expecting to get what I paid for.

Ah, and it is! Such a community has sprung up here, there is quite the diversity. It seems everyone's opinion is different!

I think the price doesn't matter. In things like this, in order to correct such flaws, you would have to do some seriously expensive things. Perhaps if the price were $10,000 / keyboard or more then a company could afford to hand inspect every aspect of the process and afford computerized plastic cooling algorithms and dynamic moulding processes. Machining them by hand individually out of plastic might work.

Anyway, I think if you twist the key, you will see that while the "resting position" of that key is not in the same spot as the ones near it, it is within the boundaries. I would call that keyboard within spec and happily type on it (and I have!) but i'm not really that picky about such things.

What matters to me more is the internal design and construction. The principles of operation and how they are implemented. The functional aesthetics take significant precedence over non-functional aesthetic aspects.

Agreed.

Honestly, it didn't bother me that much but accompanied by the broken LED, I thought I--in-fact--had gotten a defective board. Besides it really not bothering me as much as it seemed (I reread my OP, I can see where it seemed I was being a bit OCD), it does make me feel better such a small defect is quite common among both switch types. Hence part of the reason I created the thread and discussion.

With that said, I love the keyboard. I seriously love the thing. If I was 6 again, I'd probably snuggle with it under the covers like I did with my toys. Typing on it is a dream and I am so happy I took the plunge with Topre (this is my first Topre board). Overall, the build quality is fantastic, the solidity of the case is a dream every key-stroke and I wouldn't judge Leopold or the quality based on this key AT ALL.

TLDR; I am very happy with my purchase. :D

"What you pay for" is completely subjective. I've dropped more money than I care to admit on keyboards (including quite a few Topre boards), and none of the pictures in this thread qualify as "low quality", in my experience and opinion. That's probably different than somebody else's.

Key switches, whether Cherry MX, Alps, or Topre, have moving parts, and therefore there are certain tolerances that they need to have in order for the pieces to move. Take any key switch, gently rotate the cap, and you'll see that pretty much every key on every mechanical board you own will have a certain amount of rotational play. That doesn't mean that it's low quality. It just means that the level of precision manufacturing required to completely eliminate that would be much, much, much more expensive than just $220.

PS: Whenever you express a strong opinion, be prepared for others to do the same in response ;)

I don't think he referred to it as being low quality - I certainly didn't.

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

[intelli78]

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

Hmm. I think many people see exactly what you're talking about, but realize it's to be expected, even for a $200 item.

[Polymer]

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

Hmm. I think many people see exactly what you're talking about, but realize it's to be expected, even for a $200 item.

Yeah, at first I thought, that can't really be what he's talking about because it is so minor and so common...For the price point this is at, it is unrealistic to expect every single thing will be absolutely perfect.  There has to be a level of tolerance or it would just be exceedingly expensive to make....

You want to see a crooked key that can come on a keyboard...google Osmium Crooked Key.

[neunelfer]

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

Hmm. I think many people see exactly what you're talking about, but realize it's to be expected, even for a $200 item.

Yeah, at first I thought, that can't really be what he's talking about because it is so minor and so common...For the price point this is at, it is unrealistic to expect every single thing will be absolutely perfect.  There has to be a level of tolerance or it would just be exceedingly expensive to make....

You want to see a crooked key that can come on a keyboard...google Osmium Crooked Key.

I remember reading that the sliders of the Type-S were slightly modified to help resolve this issue. Is this exceedingly expensive process change the reason for the higher price of the Type-S?

Believe me, I love my HHKB and the fact that some of the keys are a little crooked doesn't really bother me. But I don't believe this magical level of superior precision manufacturing that you speak of is unattainable.

[OnTheBrink]

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

Hmm. I think many people see exactly what you're talking about, but realize it's to be expected, even for a $200 item.

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

Hmm. I think many people see exactly what you're talking about, but realize it's to be expected, even for a $200 item.

Yeah, at first I thought, that can't really be what he's talking about because it is so minor and so common...For the price point this is at, it is unrealistic to expect every single thing will be absolutely perfect.  There has to be a level of tolerance or it would just be exceedingly expensive to make....

You want to see a crooked key that can come on a keyboard...google Osmium Crooked Key.

Okay, I think people are making this a bigger spectacle than I was at this point. 

Again, I love the keyboard and I don't think it is that big of a deal. Nor do I think it is a reflection on the overall quality/value of the keyboard. In-fact, I think the quality throughout is superb. Especially now since I know it is "so minor and so common".

Thank you everyone for the insight.

It's just that when paying such a premium price for a keyboard, some people expect every aspect to be perfect. Obviously it doesn't affect the keyboard's usability, but as evidenced in this thread, some people have a keener eye than others.

This pretty much sums it up as well.

Hmm. I think many people see exactly what you're talking about, but realize it's to be expected, even for a $200 item.

Yeah, at first I thought, that can't really be what he's talking about because it is so minor and so common...For the price point this is at, it is unrealistic to expect every single thing will be absolutely perfect.  There has to be a level of tolerance or it would just be exceedingly expensive to make....

You want to see a crooked key that can come on a keyboard...google Osmium Crooked Key.

I remember reading that the sliders of the Type-S were slightly modified to help resolve this issue. Is this exceedingly expensive process change the reason for the higher price of the Type-S?

Believe me, I love my HHKB and the fact that some of the keys are a little crooked doesn't really bother me. But I don't believe this magical level of superior precision manufacturing that you speak of is unattainable.

I'd just like to add to this because I agree. I think people are making it seem like my the perceived expectations are ridiculous. Once again, it does not bother me as much as I guess I made it seem. Truly, it doesn't. But I don't think expecting a key or switch to be straight is so mind blowing.

[Polymer]

I'd just like to add to this because I agree. I think people are making it seem like my the perceived expectations are ridiculous. Once again, it does not bother me as much as I guess I made it seem. Truly, it doesn't. But I don't think expecting a key or switch to be straight is so mind blowing.

I think because so many people told you they had the same minor issues that you realized that was to be expected.  Based on your response to other people's responses I'd say you probably expected it to be absolutely perfect.
Expecting keys to be straight is fair enough...but within a certain level of tolerances right?  Your key is definitely not THAT crooked.  I think others have pointed out other keys on your keyboard that are probably just as if not more crooked.   It is ok though..we all have our OCD moments here and there...

You want to see keys that have been sold that are crooked.  Google Osmium Crooked Key.  THAT is something that is really bad. 

[daerid]

... some people have a keener eye than others.

That's not very nice. I don't think it's a matter of a "keener" eye at all. It's not that we don't see it, it's that we differ on whether it's a QC issue at all.

[neunelfer]

... some people have a keener eye than others.

That's not very nice. I don't think it's a matter of a "keener" eye at all. It's not that we don't see it, it's that we differ on whether it's a QC issue at all.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I was more referring to those who said they didn't see it.

[strict]

... some people have a keener eye than others.

That's not very nice. I don't think it's a matter of a "keener" eye at all. It's not that we don't see it, it's that we differ on whether it's a QC issue at all.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I was more referring to those who said they didn't see it.

I think pretty much everyone could see what you were pointing out, they (myself included) just didnt see it as something that was wrong or a problem. Like pretty much everyone else has repeated, to expect 0.0% variance on something as cheap as a $200 product is totally unrealistic. Even on $250,000 Ferrari's you are always going to have some variance. Just because some keyboards cost $5 doesn't mean a $200 keyboard is going to look like a Patek Philippe watch.

[OnTheBrink]

As I said in the OP, and to avoid looking like a complete neurotic, the 'T' is substantially more crooked than it looks in the picture. Like I said, maybe the shape of the letter adds to the effect, but nevertheless, it is most definitely more crooked than in the pic.

In-fact, there are several other keys that I noticed to be a bit crooked when I noticed the 'T' but felt the 'T' was worth mentioning based on how much more it was crooked.

... some people have a keener eye than others.

That's not very nice. I don't think it's a matter of a "keener" eye at all. It's not that we don't see it, it's that we differ on whether it's a QC issue at all.

Personally, while we are on the subject, I don't think it was very nice how people called me "OCD" or acted as if I was absurd for even bringing this up. I'm not trying to be rude to you or anything, but I just figured I'd respond since you are commenting on the only guy who stuck up for me through patronizing replies.

I'm not offended by any of the posts or anything, but I respect people who don't agree with the masses and speak up about it. It's much more difficult to do than to jump on the bandwagon that I am OCD.

... some people have a keener eye than others.

That's not very nice. I don't think it's a matter of a "keener" eye at all. It's not that we don't see it, it's that we differ on whether it's a QC issue at all.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I was more referring to those who said they didn't see it.

I think pretty much everyone could see what you were pointing out, they (myself included) just didnt see it as something that was wrong or a problem. Like pretty much everyone else has repeated, to expect 0.0% variance on something as cheap as a $200 product is totally unrealistic. Even on $250,000 Ferrari's you are always going to have some variance. Just because some keyboards cost $5 doesn't mean a $200 keyboard is going to look like a Patek Philippe watch.

Once again, I don't think I've ever stated the board should be perfect or have 0 variance... Ever. Another posted also stated he thinks I didn't care as much after people said it was normal. Truthfully, it didn't bother me as much as I guess I made it seem. I know myself, regardless as to what anyone says, if it bothered me I would have returned it. End of story. With that said, people stating it is normal makes me feel better not really because of the issue itself, but the fact that if I ever want to sell the thing, I know it is a non-issue.

[daerid]

All good man. That's a great way of looking at it. Sorry if I came off as rude (I'll admit the face palm pic probably was a bit condescending).

[OnTheBrink]

All good man. That's a great way of looking at it. Sorry if I came off as rude (I'll admit the face palm pic probably was a bit condescending).

I'm a NYer, gunna take a lot more than a face palm to get under my skin. Lol, no biggie.

[osi]

Here's my shift. At first there was dissapointment when I saw it wasn't perfect. This became a non factor as soon as I started using the board. It does not affect functionality.

It catches my eye here and there but what really gives it away is the way the light falls on the keys. Adds a touch of character I suppose. Bit of a bad break getting an offset key front and center.