Author Topic: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard  (Read 3595 times)

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Offline Cluzo

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Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:04:05 »
Hello everyone

I've been following this forum for a few month but it is the first time i actually participate. I'm considering getting my first mechanical keyboard but i have some hard time to find something that suits my needs.

I use my computer 1/3 for professional use and 2/3 for gaming, so i'll probably start with brown switch (although i plan to order a switch tester to confirm). I need a keyboard with french layout, not too big as i have limited space (so probably TKL, even if numpad is handy), without macrokeys getting in the way and under 150€ (under 130 would be even better). Basic backlighting would be nice but isn't mandatory.

I had a crush on the DAS Keyboard 4, but it doesn't exists with french layout (that also goes for Ducky shine 2). Ducky shine 3 is slightly over my budget, has lots of lighting options i will never use and seems to have known some issues lately. CM QFR seemed a really good deal to start with mechanicals, but is out of product and i found very little useful info on its replacement the QFR-I (which seems to have a lot of fancy lighting features like Ducky 3). I have also considered the QuickFire TK, but the arrows integrated in numpad doesn't seem very handy.

I red a lot, but have no experience with mechanical keyboard, so i'm looking for advices. i already thank those who will take some time to help me with this matter!


Offline Razor Lotus

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:50:29 »
Do you like 60%?


Offline Novus

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:54:56 »
HHKB Type S

Offline Raddam

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  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:57:31 »
I barely have any experience with mechanical keyboards but you should look at the poker II. its programmable so you can program french keys for it and one of the versions has backlighting

Offline Cluzo

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 16:59:42 »
Thanks for all your answers, i'll try to give you some more details

Quote
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/french-filco-majestouch-2-tenkeyless-nkr-mechanical-keyboards.asp
Pretty nice i have to admit, i've red a lot about Filco awesomeness, but the price on french sites was x1.5 compared to this one. It's definitely worth to look at shipping cost

For the others, i never used 60% keyboards, my space is limited but not that much (under 42cm/16.5  inches is alright) and i have fairly large hands. So i guess TKL is probably my best bait even if i'll be really interested in anyone with a feedback on the Quickfire TK since not totally giving up the numpad is quite alluring (and wallet-friendly i have to admit).

Offline Defect

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 17:27:55 »
I get kinda tired of typing the same response, might have to just make a KB buying guide at some point.

Look out for:

Layout
     60% is great for aesthetics and fun to program/find a layout that works for you.
     75 is best for gaming IMO.  F-row directly above num row, every button you need and all close together.  Downside is caps are a pain in the arse to replace (non standard sizes).
     TKL - Best "all around" first timer board IMO.  Easy as hell to replace keycaps (all standard minus numpad), has all the buttons you need.  Personally I can't ever use TKL, 75 is superior for gaming and 60 is superior for aesthetics.
     Full Size - Bad for gaming.  Almost never need numpad, and the big size forces your mouse hand unnaturally far from your gaming hand.  You don't notice how awful this effect is until you've gotten used to smaller boards.

Switch Type
     Easy to swap switches, so I usually dont bother explaining this.  You CAN game on every switch, but blues are terribly designed for it (ex: wearing basketball shoes to run, bringing a mini van to a track)
     Linear is best for most gaming applications, but some RTS'ers want tactility.  Go clears with a spring mod.  Browns just don't cut it (if you've never used clears, you might be ok with browns.  Clears ruined browns for me)

Spring Weight
     Heavier spring = rest fingers on key.  But also more force to actuate.  This all comes down to user preference.  And also the reason I have 3 gaming keyboards (and others that I do not use for gaming).

Backlit
     I still swear by it: a gaming board should NOT have any backlighting.  At all.  Some "gamers" think they need it.  It's just bling.  If you want it, I'm not going to stop you from getting backlit.  Just do what makes you happy at the end of the day.  But from my perspective, unless its red LED's, LED's will mess with your peripheral vision (its light in your eyes, believe it or not)

NKRO/6KRO/2KRO
     Get a board with PS2 for a true gaming board.  For compatibility reasons, many people turn to USB with either on-board computer doing NKRO or just the standard 6KRO.  I've gamed on my 2KRO buckling spring and done fine.  YMMV.


PM for questions, love talking keyboards.

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline zig_ziglar

  • Posts: 175
Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 18:18:03 »
Switch Type
     Easy to swap switches, so I usually dont bother explaining this.  You CAN game on every switch, but blues are terribly designed for it (ex: wearing basketball shoes to run, bringing a mini van to a track)
     Linear is best for most gaming applications, but some RTS'ers want tactility.  Go clears with a spring mod.  Browns just don't cut it (if you've never used clears, you might be ok with browns.  Clears ruined browns for me)

The bump on clears is larger and produces are greater tactile feel, doesn't it? A lot of people argue that 68g is the lightest they'd go for ergos, but I don't mind the equivalent lightness of blues. What's your take on 62g? You sound like you know what you're talking about.

My opinion on gaming keyboards is that, while linear feels great and allows for very fast key presses and double-tapping, the absence of tactility can lead muscle memory up a stray path in moments of high pressure/stress. I agree that blues have been poorly designed as far as gaming goes, due to the mismatched activation and resent points and the fact that they are dual/stem and reset can sometimes fail if you hover the keys or during quick taps, although I feel this is over-hyped (negatively) and less of a problem in practice than claimed.

I would personally love to see a tactile switch created that uses the same spring as MX Blue, but clicks and resets at the exact point of activation (like buckling springs).
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline Defect

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 18:37:23 »
Switch Type
     Easy to swap switches, so I usually dont bother explaining this.  You CAN game on every switch, but blues are terribly designed for it (ex: wearing basketball shoes to run, bringing a mini van to a track)
     Linear is best for most gaming applications, but some RTS'ers want tactility.  Go clears with a spring mod.  Browns just don't cut it (if you've never used clears, you might be ok with browns.  Clears ruined browns for me)

The bump on clears is larger and produces are greater tactile feel, doesn't it? A lot of people argue that 68g is the lightest they'd go for ergos, but I don't mind the equivalent lightness of blues. What's your take on 62g? You sound like you know what you're talking about.

My opinion on gaming keyboards is that, while linear feels great and allows for very fast key presses and double-tapping, the absence of tactility can lead muscle memory up a stray path in moments of high pressure/stress. I agree that blues have been poorly designed as far as gaming goes, due to the mismatched activation and resent points and the fact that they are dual/stem and reset can sometimes fail if you hover the keys or during quick taps, although I feel this is over-hyped (negatively) and less of a problem in practice than claimed.

I would personally love to see a tactile switch created that uses the same spring as MX Blue, but clicks and resets at the exact point of activation (like buckling springs).

Going to answer it as you ask them:

1. Love my 62g clears.  I just wish I didn't lube the leg so much.  On anything lighter than 62, and even 62 unlubed, the bump sticks ever so slightly on the upstroke.  I would go as far as to say that for easy going typing, I LOVE stock 45 cherry spring + clear stem + thick PBT.  But if I'm typing fast, the stickiness really gets to me and makes it difficult to use reliably.  With 62g, I don't really have problems on the upstroke...I just lubed mine because I had lots of lube x.x  Picking up thin lube to VERY LIGHTLY lube the legs on my next board (in the mail!)

2. You can game on blues.  I cannot.  Because I have used every MX switch and spring variant I could get my hands on, and am used to the hovering technique (also on that tangent, clears actuate right after the bump ends, literally at the bottom of the bump, not mid bump.  At least on the 45 cherry springs).  Blues were my first switch, and I love them.  In fact, all my custom boards that I build/mod have a blue switch for the escape key as a throwback to the start of my hobby.

I will say that if I do frequent board swapping, I HATE my 62g lubed blacks.  They are just so smooth that I get bad key presses and find myself missing tactility for typing.  But then when I use it for a month straight, it's my favorite all purpose.  And then I use my ghost blacks and everything else sucks again (btw, Ghost Blacks are god tier for gaming.  Recommend you at least try for 3 hours before dismissing everyone :)).  I'm all about that keyboard rotation.

3. Me too :(  Clears are the closest I've come.  Unlubed legged clears are more tactile than blues.  I'd recommend either lightly lubing 45g cherry clears or finding somewhere to snag 62g+ korean springs with clears. 

Or if you can get used to a heavier spring, get clears and blacks and do my favorite stock swap: Ghost Blacks and Panda Clears.  I LOVE my panda clears as an all purpose lazy and want to type lazily board.  I rest my fingers on the keys haha.  Which is why I bring it to work every day :)


Edit:
POM for linear, thin PBT for click, thick pbt for clears, thin abs for browns (why waste money if its just gonna go on a brown.  jkjk)

Edit 2:
Here's my Watermelon board with blue on escape as proof of my love for all switches :P
More
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 May 2014, 18:41:17 by Defect »

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 19:20:29 »
The bump on clears is larger and produces are greater tactile feel, doesn't it? A lot of people argue that 68g is the lightest they'd go for ergos, but I don't mind the equivalent lightness of blues. What's your take on 62g? You sound like you know what you're talking about.

What lot of people? 62g, I would wager, is the most popular weight for ergo clears. People go as low as 55g.

Offline zig_ziglar

  • Posts: 175
Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 19:30:44 »
Clears do sound about as close to a lighter buckling spring as you can get with Cherry switches, minus the click - but there is software for that if it's absolutely necessary; and also as nice as a click is, it can be difficult to hear over music/gaming anyway.

The fact that they actuate immediately after the bump is the most alluring aspect (in addition to the bump being more pronounced than browns).

What I'd like is a TKL plate mount no frills board with ergo clears, but ... let's put it this way: Leopold 700R TLK = $140, 90x Clear Switches $45, 90x springs $25, lube kit $15 + soldering iron etc... list goes on :(
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Offline Defect

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 19:47:14 »
What I'd like is a TKL plate mount no frills board with ergo clears, but ... let's put it this way: Leopold 700R TLK = $140, 90x Clear Switches $45, 90x springs $25, lube kit $15 + soldering iron etc... list goes on :(

Leopold - 140 (or get a 60 dollar second hand QFR...)
Switches - 45
Springs - 20
Lube - 20
Total: 220
140 if you go with QFR

And you end up with (using low valuation):
$160 - 1 lubed modded Leopold with the switch you want
$30 - 90 switches (whatever you started with..might even be able to sell for more than 30)
$1 - 45 stock springs (whatever you started with)
$10 - 55 custom springs (Whatever custom spring you bought)
Total: $201
and you just had a BLAST with your new hobby. 

This is with low valuation and with accepting that stock switches sell for much less than buying a new set of clears off mechboards (you could also just buy second hand clears to start...).

The fixed cost of a soldering iron is nothing (I suppose I do have to luxury of extra cash).  50 will get you a decent iron, 5 for a decent sucker (mine has desoldered 5 boards and still works fine).  Eat cheaper (but still healthy and fresh!) food for a month.  Boom, 50 bucks recovered.

Sell the switches and springs (for a loss) and you can recover 30-40 bucks.  People always seem to forget that after doing a switch swap, they have the switches they paid for with the original board.  Also why I don't get people selling fully modded boards for 220+ ...ridiculous...

Rant time: I see people selling modded boards for over 220.  I don't get it.  They don't even include the original switches/stem/plate/whatever else they swapped out, but they charge you for it.  Some even sell modded boards without keycaps and try to charge ridiculous prices.  And don't pull that "cost of labor" bs.  Soldering boards is so ridiculously fun, I pretty much buy boards and find excuses to give them away just because I LOVE making them.  If I billed you the way I bill my company, the labor cost would set a board way above 220.  So it's not labor cost that's affecting the cost of these modded boards.  What is it?  Bad math?  These boards aren't even close to being new.

And do not confuse "custom modded 220 board" with korean customs.  Big difference.  The only way I can think of getting a modded commercial board to the 220 range is if I included some sick caps and sucked off each switch individually.
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 May 2014, 19:48:45 by Defect »

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline zig_ziglar

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 20:04:23 »
You guys can get QFR for $80 - cheapest I've seen them in Australia is $120 on special ($130+ usually), which works out similar to importing from USA. Either way, a Leopold 700R can be had for $150 delivered, so it's just a better option here.

The only mech boards you can get here under $100 are Cherry MX2.0, some Razer boards, Ducky Zero ($95-$100) and a couple of other gamer gimmick boards.

I have a Ducky Zero at  home and it's pretty good actually. I'd say it's on par with the QFR - so it's probably the Aussie equivalent of the USA KB modder's board of choice - or at least I expect it might pick up popularity as it becomes more commonplace. The main issues, I'd say, are a slight arc on side of the top case, rather than both top and bottom case pieces meeting flush at the ground (like Leopold, Filco etc) and the lack of a detachable cable. The construction quality in general is great.

I do browse the classifieds a lot, but again, shipping from USA to here is horrendous :(

And my apologies to the OP! Although perhaps this discussion is directly beneficial?
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 02:56:00 »
Clears do sound about as close to a lighter buckling spring as you can get with Cherry switches, minus the click - but there is software for that if it's absolutely necessary; and also as nice as a click is, it can be difficult to hear over music/gaming anyway.

The fact that they actuate immediately after the bump is the most alluring aspect (in addition to the bump being more pronounced than browns).

What I'd like is a TKL plate mount no frills board with ergo clears, but ... let's put it this way: Leopold 700R TLK = $140, 90x Clear Switches $45, 90x springs $25, lube kit $15 + soldering iron etc... list goes on :(

There's one more benefit to Clears / ErgoClears: The bump starts at the top of the stroke. On Browns there is a short "flat" part before you start to feel the bump.

62g ErgoClears have a nice "pop" to them and feel great for any use. I do think I can double-tap and "hover" better with Browns, so for me I would say Browns are a "better" gaming switch, but I just love the feeling of the ErgoClears. For me, they're the best switch bar none (including Topre).
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Offline qwack

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 07:16:42 »
I use my computer 1/3 for professional use and 2/3 for gaming, so i'll probably start with brown switch (although i plan to order a switch tester to confirm). I need a keyboard with french layout, not too big as i have limited space (so probably TKL, even if numpad is handy), without macrokeys getting in the way and under 150€ (under 130 would be even better). Basic backlighting would be nice but isn't mandatory.

I was pretty much in the same boat (french layout, not too big so possibly TKL, no need for macro keys, backlighting not mandatory) and was ready to pull the trigger on a Shine 3 or Majestouch TKL when I found that amazon was selling KBT Pure Pro's in azerty with a variety of switch and backlight colors. Given their attractive return policy and despite my fears of not adapting to a 60% layout, I got one, and I couldn't be more happy. It has everything a TKL can offer, I did not take long to adjust to the layout, it's small yet solid, and it's priced very nicely.

I wrote a small review here if you want more details: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58211.0

Oh, and having larger hands should not be a discriminating factor regarding keyboard size, they'll be on the home row when you're typing anyway, and for other uses you'll simply have less reaching to do because you'll be using modifiers. And the keys on a 60% board are sized and spaced the same as on larger keyboards.

Pure Pro w/MX Red - [review]

Offline Cluzo

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 12:00:13 »
Quote
I wrote a small review here if you want more details: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58211.0
Great input! And the keyboard seems pretty nice and is quite affordable too. It definitely goes on my "watchlist" along the Filco TKL and QF TK. I just have one more question (i don't remember you mentionning it in the review), can you lock the upper row in F1-F12 mode? I tend to use these quite a bit in some games so it might be handy.

I've ordered the CM switch tester as it has clear switch, so i can give it a try. But considering the lack of choice with stock clear switch, i'll probably start with something else and if really like them, i'll follow Defect advice and switch them.

Thanks for your feedbacks again

Offline qwack

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Re: Brainstorming over first mechanical keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 12:19:38 »
Great input! And the keyboard seems pretty nice and is quite affordable too. It definitely goes on my "watchlist" along the Filco TKL and QF TK. I just have one more question (i don't remember you mentionning it in the review), can you lock the upper row in F1-F12 mode? I tend to use these quite a bit in some games so it might be handy.

You cannot, but with AutoHotkey it would be easy to remap the top row to F1-F12 (or any other key for that matter, either globally or for a specific application), if you cannot remap them via the game's bindings settings, that is.

Pure Pro w/MX Red - [review]