HHKB - I think I finally get it...

[ShivaYash]

I've had this HHKB Pro 2 for a while now, tried selling it twice, but for some strange reason, I couldn't let go of it. Most recently a sale was confirmed but then the buyer backed out. I opted this time to trial the KB properly, so I put my usual FILCO TKL blues away, and hooked up the HHKB, the different between Cherry Blues and Topre is huge, the sound for one, but also the feeling. The layout has been growing on me and after three weeks for proper use, I went back to the FILCO. It sounded great, but just felt a little light, and quite ordinary when compared to the HHKB. There are some things that of course drive me insane with the HHKB but on the whole, it is a keeper now, I think I finally understand what all the fuss is about. It is a beautifully made, if a little idiosyncratic, but I am learning to live it is. And I actually like it now. So there we are, I thought I'd share that with some fellow KB nerds. Thanks for reading.

WB,
SY.

[hcry4]

You've seen the light!

[osi]

It was meant to be. Stop opposing it!!

<3

[ShivaYash]

You've seen the light!

I think so. Where did you score your Topre keycaps from? I'm jealous. I am writing up my PhD so use the cursors a lot, would like coloured ones.

With best,

[hcry4]

Got them a while back before they sold out on elitekeyboards.com.

[spiceBar]

I've had this HHKB Pro 2 for a while now, tried selling it twice, but for some strange reason, I couldn't let go of it. Most recently a sale was confirmed but then the buyer backed out. I opted this time to trial the KB properly, so I put my usual FILCO TKL blues away, and hooked up the HHKB, the different between Cherry Blues and Topre is huge, the sound for one, but also the feeling. The layout has been growing on me and after three weeks for proper use, I went back to the FILCO. It sounded great, but just felt a little light, and quite ordinary when compared to the HHKB. There are some things that of course drive me insane with the HHKB but on the whole, it is a keeper now, I think I finally understand what all the fuss is about. It is a beautifully made, if a little idiosyncratic, but I am learning to live it is. And I actually like it now. So there we are, I thought I'd share that with some fellow KB nerds. Thanks for reading.

WB,
SY.

For so many people who just resell their HHKB, sometimes someone keeps it, yes.

Disclaimer: I have an HHKB and I use it from time to time. It was on my main computer yesterday, now I'm on a Realforce.

My opinion is that the HHKB is nice, but not really superior to many other fine keyboards. The FC660C is also a very fine keyboard, for example. A Code that doesn't ping must be lovely.

What happens to you with your HHKB can happen to anyone trying hard enough to adapt to a good keyboard (or a good product in general). The difference is probably that you have read so much about how great the HHKB was supposed to be that you felt you had to try harder.

Just my two cents.

[Ngt]

I'm new to this community. I only have a Ducky Zero Shine Zone (MX Brown) at the moment but I am already considering buying a Poker II (MX Blue).

I read a lot of people telling how they are in love with their HHKB and I'm curious. I'd like to see by myself what using Topre feels like. However as a European mech user getting a HHKB is just so expensive. I'll just sit on it for now. At the beginning I couldn't even think about spending 130+$ on my mech but now I am already considering spending 230+$ for the Poker. I will eventually join the HHKB army once I am in the mood for the 300+$ expense that getting a HHKB is.

[ShivaYash]

Totally agree, I got the HHKB with this in mind, trying to distill what the fuss was all about. I'd love to try the 660C! Shall hunt down a video review and take the plunge next year. Does it come in different weights?

I've had this HHKB Pro 2 for a while now, tried selling it twice, but for some strange reason, I couldn't let go of it. Most recently a sale was confirmed but then the buyer backed out. I opted this time to trial the KB properly, so I put my usual FILCO TKL blues away, and hooked up the HHKB, the different between Cherry Blues and Topre is huge, the sound for one, but also the feeling. The layout has been growing on me and after three weeks for proper use, I went back to the FILCO. It sounded great, but just felt a little light, and quite ordinary when compared to the HHKB. There are some things that of course drive me insane with the HHKB but on the whole, it is a keeper now, I think I finally understand what all the fuss is about. It is a beautifully made, if a little idiosyncratic, but I am learning to live it is. And I actually like it now. So there we are, I thought I'd share that with some fellow KB nerds. Thanks for reading.

WB,
SY.

For so many people who just resell their HHKB, sometimes someone keeps it, yes.

Disclaimer: I have an HHKB and I use it from time to time. It was on my main computer yesterday, now I'm on a Realforce.

My opinion is that the HHKB is nice, but not really superior to many other fine keyboards. The FC660C is also a very fine keyboard, for example. A Code that doesn't ping must be lovely.

What happens to you with your HHKB can happen to anyone trying hard enough to adapt to a good keyboard (or a good product in general). The difference is probably that you have read so much about how great the HHKB was supposed to be that you felt you had to try harder.

Just my two cents.

[spiceBar]

Totally agree, I got the HHKB with this in mind, trying to distill what the fuss was all about. I'd love to try the 660C! Shall hunt down a video review and take the plunge next year. Does it come in different weights?

I've had this HHKB Pro 2 for a while now, tried selling it twice, but for some strange reason, I couldn't let go of it. Most recently a sale was confirmed but then the buyer backed out. I opted this time to trial the KB properly, so I put my usual FILCO TKL blues away, and hooked up the HHKB, the different between Cherry Blues and Topre is huge, the sound for one, but also the feeling. The layout has been growing on me and after three weeks for proper use, I went back to the FILCO. It sounded great, but just felt a little light, and quite ordinary when compared to the HHKB. There are some things that of course drive me insane with the HHKB but on the whole, it is a keeper now, I think I finally understand what all the fuss is about. It is a beautifully made, if a little idiosyncratic, but I am learning to live it is. And I actually like it now. So there we are, I thought I'd share that with some fellow KB nerds. Thanks for reading.

WB,
SY.

For so many people who just resell their HHKB, sometimes someone keeps it, yes.

Disclaimer: I have an HHKB and I use it from time to time. It was on my main computer yesterday, now I'm on a Realforce.

My opinion is that the HHKB is nice, but not really superior to many other fine keyboards. The FC660C is also a very fine keyboard, for example. A Code that doesn't ping must be lovely.

What happens to you with your HHKB can happen to anyone trying hard enough to adapt to a good keyboard (or a good product in general). The difference is probably that you have read so much about how great the HHKB was supposed to be that you felt you had to try harder.

Just my two cents.

I think there is only one model, which is 45g uniform.

Typing on the FC660C is smooth. A real pleasure. It has a plate, so contrary to the HHKB the sound is not hollow. It's also heavier, so if you need to move  with your keyboard, the HHKB is a better choice. Ans it's a little bit wider, but the arrow keys are directly accessible, which is great.

[Kmynis]

I'm new to this community. I only have a Ducky Zero Shine Zone (MX Brown) at the moment but I am already considering buying a Poker II (MX Blue).

I read a lot of people telling how they are in love with their HHKB and I'm curious. I'd like to see by myself what using Topre feels like. However as a European mech user getting a HHKB is just so expensive. I'll just sit on it for now. At the beginning I couldn't even think about spending 130+$ on my mech but now I am already considering spending 230+$ for the Poker. I will eventually join the HHKB army once I am in the mood for the 300+$ expense that getting a HHKB is.

The non silenced HHKB can go as low as 150 euro for a used one. That's something similar to what I paid for a Filco from keyboardco.

[Ngt]

I'm new to this community. I only have a Ducky Zero Shine Zone (MX Brown) at the moment but I am already considering buying a Poker II (MX Blue).

I read a lot of people telling how they are in love with their HHKB and I'm curious. I'd like to see by myself what using Topre feels like. However as a European mech user getting a HHKB is just so expensive. I'll just sit on it for now. At the beginning I couldn't even think about spending 130+$ on my mech but now I am already considering spending 230+$ for the Poker. I will eventually join the HHKB army once I am in the mood for the 300+$ expense that getting a HHKB is.

The non silenced HHKB can go as low as 150 euro for a used one. That's something similar to what I paid for a Filco from keyboardco.

At first I considered getting a Filco from KeyboardCo but I realized I need more a 60% than a TKL.

Actually the Poker itself will cost me less than what I wrote, around 110€ delivery fees included, but as I'm an AZERTY user I'll have to get custom key set from WASD so taking into account that expense it raises up the price of the board to 170€.

Thanks for the tip about the HHKB, I have to look into it to see how much it will cost to get one. If I can get one around 150€ like you mentioned I'll just have to get some stickers for the keycaps which will be cheaper than the custom set. But having custom colors was nice as well 

[Oobly]

From what I have read of other people's experiences, the switches in the FC660C also feel slightly heavier than the HHKB (but lighter than Realforce 55g uniform) and perhaps a little more consistent. Not having owned either board I can't confirm this, but I think it may have to do with being plate mounted. I know that if I were to get a Topre board it would be an FC660C.

I am actually quite eager to try Matias Quiet switches and the FC660C, but right now my money is going to keycaps, PCB's and other keyboard related paraphenalia, so it'll have to wait. Perhaps after Christmas I'll have the funds to do it. Another deterrant for me is the lack of compatible keycaps. I like to switch out my caps and mod my switches, so MX still holds my attention more.

[SSIPAK]

You know what they say,

Once you go HHKB, you never go back 

[rowdy]

OP says it all, really.  If you're going to try Topre, and HHKB in particular, please give yourself a week or two of using the keyboard exclusively (if possible), and then try going back to something else and see what you think of your other keyboards.

[fuzzybaffy]

There has always been a strong following of Topre boards, I think. Whatever "hate" you saw for Topre was born out of the recent trolling by the guy named tp4tissue, that we all know about.

[spiceBar]

There has always been a strong following of Topre boards, I think. Whatever "hate" you saw for Topre was born out of the recent trolling by the guy named tp4tissue, that we all know about.

Any hate for a highly regarded keyboard is completely ridiculous.

Same for the excessive love threads about any of them. It's an insult to the many other fine keyboards out there.

I think a keyboard connaisseur/enthusiast/lover should be proud of being able to appreciate the strong points of any quality keyboard.

When I read a post about the indisputable superiority of some keyboard, I know the author is a n00b.

[Roibhilin]

why are people especially elitist about the HHKB in particular?
i don't see what the fuss is about

[fuzzybaffy]

Why is liking HHKB called "elitist"?

[spiceBar]

Why is liking HHKB called "elitist"?

Why are you asking this question? It has nothing to do with what he has said.

Liking the HHKB is not elitist.

What is pointed out, I believe, is that amongst HHKB users there seems to be a disproportionate percentage ready to sing the praises of the keyboard with a total disregard to objectivity. This behavior is elitist, and actually borderline childish. In any case, it shows that the owner has either never tried any other keyboard or is unable to appreciate the qualities of other keyboards.

If you want an example, just read the threads where someone asks for advice on their first/next mechanical keyboard.

It does not matter what type of keyboard the guy asks for, maybe he is asking for a Cherry MX red keyboard, or a full size one, there will always be some fanatic that will advise an HHKB.

I find this disturbing because I have seldom seen people doing the same and advising for a Poker or a Filco when it's clearly not what the OP asks for.

Wait... I'm wrong. There is also always a fanatic that will pollute the thread and advise for an ErgoDox, no matter what.

[fuzzybaffy]

It does not matter what type of keyboard the guy asks for, maybe he is asking for a Cherry MX red keyboard, or a full size one, there will always be some fanatic that will advise an HHKB.

I find this disturbing because I have seldom seen people doing the same and advising for a Poker or a Filco when it's clearly not what the OP asks for.

Honestly, I haven't seen such behavior. Maybe I'm turning a blind-eye to such things, but I've rarely seen people go completely off-topic to advise an HHKB, when the situation doesn't call for it.

What I HAVE seen, however, is when people praise HHKB boards, or Topre boards, which in and of itself is not elitist at all, and then people who don't own any Topre board whatsoever chime in, to say, "oh wow, this board is just a Topre circle jerk". Which is why I was compelled to ask my question in the previous post.

Fact of the matter is, liking a Topre board, and even preferring it over any Cherry MX board is not elitist at all. Some people just prefer certain things over others. Would it be fair to call Cherry MX users elitist for liking Cherry MX over Topre? Nope. So the same would have to apply to Topre fans as well.

For instance, I don't find this thread elitist at all. The OP is just expressing preference and liking of the HHKB.

What IS inappropriate, however, as you said, is going into threads, going off-topic, to say "oh Cherry MX sux!", or "Topre sux!", or "This is a Topre circle jerk!" I saw that behavior with the guy who kept hawking the ergodox boards, and I saw it a lot with people who would chime to say "Topre sucks" in an off-topic manner. I believe the guy who kept hawking the ergodox boards is largely responsible for starting the going-off-topic-to-say-"Topre-sucks" trend.

[ShivaYash]

WOW, I did not anticipate the discussion my little personal point would create, but this is great. I wholeheartedly believe what is being said, the HHKB can be considered an elite board given its high price point, and often some the cheaper offerings by KBC et al are considered lesser boards, without full reviews. I LOVE my Cherry MX switches, they are incredibly diverse in their multiple offerings and am relatively new the Topre world. Again, from my point of view, I find it hard to swallow the price of RealForce KBs. I think this higher price point can often make such items seem 'better', this is great marketing. The beards amongst us will say I'm talking utter rubbish and that higher priced boards often cost more to make, use better materials etc, this is an argument I do not buy into. Whilst there may be more R&D going into certain boards, I think a circuit board is a circuit board, regardless of brand, and with modern technology, the base level standard of such items is pretty good now anyway.

So back the HHKB, I really do like this board now, it is my daily driver connected my 27 iMac... it is nice to have a board that has factory Mac keys, but I still use the program Karabiner to customise some keys for my particular taste.

I don't have an office base, but hot desk, at work therefore I have a Poker II (non backlit version) with Browns in my locker. This is another fine board I love, it was a father's day gift from my (wife) daughter when she was about 13 months old. The keycaps take a proper battering and with its excellent value for money price point, I don't mind chucking it about in a bag, without a case etc. The backlit version comes with ABS caps? Its solid and really nice to use, plus tiny. My wife uses a FILCO TK Brown KB at work, her colleagues still think its too loud but she really likes the feeling it brings. I have a FILCO TKL Blues collecting dust, but will swap this with the HHKB when the mood takes me.

Like others have said, if you are a KB nerd, having a nice selection is all the more fun. I wish to add the F660C to my collection next, and hope it soon appears on a group buy.

Thanks for reading, and contributing.

Better get to school and do some work now. Oh, and when I am not hot design, I really don't mind simply using the KB on my MacBook Air, its surprising good!

SY
London

PS. Is a new KBC board out called the Poker X? Or am I just very behind with their product range? I note they no longer offer the Poker II non backlit version - this is a great shame, as the keycaps, straight out of the box are incredibly tough and no doubt my children will type their undergraduate thesis's on it!

[spiceBar]

It does not matter what type of keyboard the guy asks for, maybe he is asking for a Cherry MX red keyboard, or a full size one, there will always be some fanatic that will advise an HHKB.

I find this disturbing because I have seldom seen people doing the same and advising for a Poker or a Filco when it's clearly not what the OP asks for.

Honestly, I haven't seen such behavior. Maybe I'm turning a blind-eye to such things, but I've rarely seen people go completely off-topic to advise an HHKB, when the situation doesn't call for it.

What I HAVE seen, however, is when people praise HHKB boards, or Topre boards, which in and of itself is not elitist at all, and then people who don't own any Topre board whatsoever chime in, to say, "oh wow, this board is just a Topre circle jerk". Which is why I was compelled to ask my question in the previous post.

Fact of the matter is, liking a Topre board, and even preferring it over any Cherry MX board is not elitist at all. Some people just prefer certain things over others. Would it be fair to call Cherry MX users elitist for liking Cherry MX over Topre? Nope. So the same would have to apply to Topre fans as well.

For instance, I don't find this thread elitist at all. The OP is just expressing preference and liking of the HHKB.

What IS inappropriate, however, as you said, is going into threads, going off-topic, to say "oh Cherry MX sux!", or "Topre sux!", or "This is a Topre circle jerk!" I saw that behavior with the guy who kept hawking the ergodox boards, and I saw it a lot with people who would chime to say "Topre sucks" in an off-topic manner. I believe the guy who kept hawking the ergodox boards is largely responsible for starting the going-off-topic-to-say-"Topre-sucks" trend.

It happens all the time. Just a recent example:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61738.0

Some are even suggesting the HHKB as a JOKE, because they know it's going to pop up anyway. It has become a staple in the "suggest me a keyboard" threads. Notice that even after the OP has said that he can't type on Topre, he will be advised to try the HHKB.

You should also do a search for "must... resist... Topre".

Again, nobody said that liking the HHKB or Topre is elitist. On the other hand, it's hard to miss the fact that people who display an elitist or fanatic behavior are most of the time praising the HHKB. And yes, there is also one guy doing this for the ErgoDox.

For your information, I tend to have a small preference for Topre. I'm typing this on a Realforce 87U, two days ago I would have been typing this on an HHKB Type-S, and the day before I was on a FC660C. I think my preference comes from the fact that I have been able to silence my Topre boards better than my Cherry MX boards, and I prefer the sound I get from my silenced Topres.

But I do really love Cherry MX. Maybe tomorrow I'll be typing on a Filco TKL with MX browns, or on a GH60 with browns, or on a Poker 2 with reds. All these keyboards are in my office, waiting for me to pick them up. I'm also strongly considering getting an MX clear TKL.

Cherry makes me love Topre, and after a while Topre makes me love Cherry. And I haven't even tried ALPS yet...

[fuzzybaffy]

I see the thread you've posted, but I don't see at all how the posts suggesting the HHKB are "elitist." They're just expressing their preference for them, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Again, nobody said that liking the HHKB or Topre is elitist. On the other hand, it's hard to miss the fact that people who display an elitist or fanatic behavior are most of the time praising the HHKB.

But... that's precisely my point. Why is being fanatic about the HHKB considered elitism? The moment anyone says a peep about preferring a Topre board, someone throws their hands up in the air, saying "elitist!", or "circle jerk!"

But, again... preferring one thing over the other, or expressing fanaticism about one product isn't elitism. Elitism is looking down on so-called "lesser" things, or considering yourself superior to others, but just because you prefer one over the other doesn't mean you're looking down on the thing you prefer less. Saying "this or that SUX!!!" is a whole other story; THAT is elitism.

[spiceBar]

I see the thread you've posted, but I don't see at all how the posts suggesting the HHKB are "elitist." They're just expressing their preference for them, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Again, nobody said that liking the HHKB or Topre is elitist. On the other hand, it's hard to miss the fact that people who display an elitist or fanatic behavior are most of the time praising the HHKB.

But... that's precisely my point. Why is being fanatic about the HHKB considered elitism? The moment anyone says a peep about preferring a Topre board, someone throws their hands up in the air, saying "elitist!", or "circle jerk!"

But, again... preferring one thing over the other, or expressing fanaticism about one product isn't elitism. Elitism is looking down on so-called "lesser" things, but just because you prefer one over the other doesn't mean you're looking down on the thing you prefer less. Saying "this or that SUX!!!" is a whole other story; THAT is elitism.

It must be a matter of sensitivity. I often see elitism, in the way you define it, in the post of HHKB fanatics.

You don't. OK.

[rowdy]

Elitist?

Probably not.

But for many the HHKB ends up being the keyboard they have been searching for for a long time.

It is light - easily portable.  It has Mac and Windows specific functionality.  It is Topre (which, for many, is an ideal switch).  It has an inspired layout - most who become accustomed to it say that is where Ctrl and Delete (Backspace) should be on all keyboards, indeed some other keyboard manufacturers (e.g. KUL) actually provide you with a Ctrl key to fit on the Caps Lock switch and a DIP switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl.

It is a 60% layout, which frees up desk space whilst still providing all of the functions you need from a keyboard with the simple press of a Fn key.

The biggest downside to it is that there are no replacement keycap sets that fit exactly.  RealForce set will fit, but you have to swap some of the modifier keys around to make them fit.

Oh, it also has a built-in USB hub and two USB sockets easily accessible on the back.

I like my HHKB

[ShivaYash]

Oh, it also has a built-in USB hub and two USB sockets easily accessible on the back.

But we all know the 'hub' is good for nothing, it can barely power a USB flash drive!

[hcry4]

The hub is really only good for plugging in mice.

[jdcarpe]

The hub is really only good for plugging in mice.

^ this. Works for my Logitech wireless mouse/trackball just fine.

[ShivaYash]

Yep - I realise this, but what about iPhones?
That was my point.

The hub is really only good for plugging in mice.

^ this. Works for my Logitech wireless mouse/trackball just fine.

[osi]

Yep - I realise this, but what about iPhones?
That was my point.

The hub is really only good for plugging in mice.

^ this. Works for my Logitech wireless mouse/trackball just fine.

iPhones can be charged elsewhere as they have always been. Why tack on that task to a keyboard?? If it is a big concern, picking up a Das keyboard model should satisfy you

[spiceBar]

Yep - I realise this, but what about iPhones?
That was my point.

The hub is really only good for plugging in mice.

^ this. Works for my Logitech wireless mouse/trackball just fine.

iPhones can be charged elsewhere as they have always been. Why tack on that task to a keyboard?? If it is a big concern, picking up a Das keyboard model should satisfy you

Absolutely. The HHKB is perfect.

[Roibhilin]

Why is liking HHKB called "elitist"?

Why are you asking this question? It has nothing to do with what he has said.

Liking the HHKB is not elitist.

What is pointed out, I believe, is that amongst HHKB users there seems to be a disproportionate percentage ready to sing the praises of the keyboard with a total disregard to objectivity. This behavior is elitist, and actually borderline childish. In any case, it shows that the owner has either never tried any other keyboard or is unable to appreciate the qualities of other keyboards.

If you want an example, just read the threads where someone asks for advice on their first/next mechanical keyboard.

It does not matter what type of keyboard the guy asks for, maybe he is asking for a Cherry MX red keyboard, or a full size one, there will always be some fanatic that will advise an HHKB.

I find this disturbing because I have seldom seen people doing the same and advising for a Poker or a Filco when it's clearly not what the OP asks for.

Wait... I'm wrong. There is also always a fanatic that will pollute the thread and advise for an ErgoDox, no matter what.

yeah the example you gave is what i'm talking about since it's happened in some of the threads i made, i've also seen it with the ergodox :v

[ShivaYash]

Because I want too...  But you are right, iPhones can be charged elsewhere. However, with their short battery life, a mini keyboard with a 2.1w USB port would be highly desired.

Yep - I realise this, but what about iPhones?
That was my point.

The hub is really only good for plugging in mice.

^ this. Works for my Logitech wireless mouse/trackball just fine.

iPhones can be charged elsewhere as they have always been. Why tack on that task to a keyboard?? If it is a big concern, picking up a Das keyboard model should satisfy you

[Polymer]

What is pointed out, I believe, is that amongst HHKB users there seems to be a disproportionate percentage ready to sing the praises of the keyboard with a total disregard to objectivity. This behavior is elitist, and actually borderline childish. In any case, it shows that the owner has either never tried any other keyboard or is unable to appreciate the qualities of other keyboards.

It does not matter what type of keyboard the guy asks for, maybe he is asking for a Cherry MX red keyboard, or a full size one, there will always be some fanatic that will advise an HHKB.

I don't see this at all.  I think for some it has become their end game keyboard...in other cases it is suggested more or less in a joking manner...

There are some really good things about a HHKB...some ok things..and some things that people will either hate or not mind at all...

Personally I think the layout is very good overall..the backspace key and CTRL swap being fantastic (although the RF can do the CTRL portion as well).  The fn layer is decent but I can see why some people would HATE it...Some people will like the extra thock..some people will prefer a more muted feel/sound of a plate....I actually prefer very heavy keyboards but I do not mind the lightness of the HHKB...easy to transport if you need to...it doesn't move around the desk (not for me anyways).  It feels solid. 

I definitely would NOT use it as my only keyboard though...