need advice: ultranav vs m4-1 vs space saver ii?

[wellington1869]

I need a compact keyboard with built in mouse.  I tend to like heavy keys rather than light keys.  Which of these should I get?  I havent had any experience with any of them.  Oh  and they need to work with a mac, if that matters.

-ibm m4-1 trackpoint 84 key - supposedly feels like the older (better) ibm laptop keyboards. Probably the smallest one of the three.

-ibm space saver II RT3200 - another membrane but never tried it. I think it has longer key throws, and a trackpoint built in.  Only slightly larger than the m4.

-ibm ultranav with built in trackpoint and trackpad.  This one supposedly feels like the newer R60/61 laptop keyboards (I believe its exactly that) with three mouse buttons over the trackpad and a built in wrist rest, so its footprint is probably wider/longer than the other two, tho still laptop-sized).

Any thoughts? thanks!

[wellington1869]

p.s., of course i'd rather get a topre 87U, but come on, we're talking $30 vs $350  I could also use this as an excuse to pick up an M mini, but as it turns out it needs to be a relatively quiet board for use in classroom.

[wellington1869]

update: I'm leaning towards elminating the space saver II (just cuz from the info i can find on it, there doesnt seem to be anything special about its key feel

So its basically between the M4 and the Ultranav I guess.

[wellington1869]

hmmm, i'm leaning towards the ultranav I think...  it'd be $15 cheaper first of all, and secondly I think i'd like the wrist rest area. On the other hand its a little bigger.

as for key feel, i havent a clue which i'd prefer...

[skriefal]

Does it need to have a trackpoint?  Would a Compaq MX-11800 fit your needs?  Brown Cherry switches and a small integrated trackball in the lower-right corner of the keyboard.

The Ultranav and RT3200 have the Windows/Option keys.  The M4 and MX-11800 don't.  These keys are usually needed for Mac OS, aren't they?

[talis]

I have One of these from Lenovo.

I bought it hoping it would be the same as the keyboard on my T60.  Unfortunately it feels a lot cheaper.  Its very light and tends to slide around a bit when I'm using it, and has one key that doesn't function properly (you need to hit it absolutely square on and squish it down past the point it bottoms out to register).  

It may be the lack of having the bulk of a laptop behind it, but the key action just feels really cheap.

The trackpad is a lot less responsive then the one on my thinkpad, almost to the point of being unusable at times.   I only use it for scrolling, but it tends to jump around a lot.  I've never had a problem with the one on my thinkpad (with the same settings).

Its possible that I just got a bunk one, or that the older IBM made ones were a lot better.  I wouldn't buy another myself, even tho I love the keyboard on my Thinkpad.

[wellington1869]

Does it need to have a trackpoint?  Would a Compaq MX-11800 fit your needs?  Brown Cherry switches and a small integrated trackball in the lower-right corner of the keyboard.

i've had a 11800 in the past, after an initial love affair (as with every new board I get) I eventually found the browns too light for my taste...

The Ultranav and RT3200 have the Windows/Option keys.  The M4 and MX-11800 don't.  These keys are usually needed for Mac OS, aren't they?

excellent point. That might clinch it actually.  Thanks man.

[wellington1869]

LOL, glad we could help Welly.  Sounds like you already reached a conclusion.

hee hee, i enjoy having conversations with myself

Seriously though, if I were you I'd base it more on what kind of pointer you like versus the other.  Surely you have a preference already (I like trackpoints myself)?

well I dont mind either type. I especially dont mind IBM trackpoints, which are so much better than other trackpoints (at least in my past experience i've always thought so).  I also dont mind trackpads.  

guess i'm a pretty easy going guy!

[wheel83]

I own a space saver 2 that I can sell you very cheaply  if you'd like.  theres nothing special about it.  but it is nice and light.

[wellington1869]

I have One of these from Lenovo.

sorry to hear the quality has dropped so much.  I checked the part number on the ebay one i'm looking it, it does look like its an older model (part num 42C0000) and its ps2 not usb like the one you linked to. So one could hope that its from a better older batch, I guess. but I wouldnt be surprised if its quality is worse than I expect. Thanks for the heads-up on that.  Hmmmmm.

[wellington1869]

I own a space saver 2 that I can sell you very cheaply  if you'd like.  theres nothing special about it.  but it is nice and light.

I've always been tempted by the SSII's size and layout. Several times I almost bought one. But then I finally found some in-depth reviews out there on random blogs (most written in japanese and google-translated) and like you say the gist of the reviews were that the key feel wasnt anything special. So I guess I'll try the ultranav. But if I need a compact board for a client who wouldnt care about things like key feel, I'll drop you a PM

[cchan]

I own a space saver 2 that I can sell you very cheaply  if you'd like.  theres nothing special about it.  but it is nice and light.

I remember you mentioning on IRC you would straight trade a 1391401 for that. If Welly isn't interested, I'd be definitely interested in that trade.

[wheel83]

pm me cchan. we can have this arranged

[wellington1869]

If Welly isn't interested, I'd be definitely interested in that trade.

go for it, dudes

[Idiot_Hacker]

If I can throw in my opinion because I have all of the mentioned.

The RT3200 is a funny example.  It is indeed a rubber dome but it is not a sheet with rubber domes but in fact a separate light green/aqua color rubber dome glued on to the membrane for each individual key.  This is a PS/2 keyboard.

I however would recommend the newer revision of the RT3200, the KPH0035.  It is a USB version Inside of the keyboard housing you will find the membrane is resting on a sheet of metal.  Truly better build quality then the RT3200 in feel and quality.  However, I like the uniqueness of the RT3200 with it's individual rubber dome style.

The Ultranav does not feel exactly like the thinkpad.  When you type on it, you can feel the rubber dome.  It's almost like the feeling of popping bubble wrap when typing.   It's weird because although this keyboard is not comfortable to use for the long haul, I find I can type the fastest on it.

[ch_123]

I'd go for the M4. The keys have a really nice feel to them.

[Idiot_Hacker]

The M4-1 is on ebay at the moment for a good price.  I recommend that because of all the keyboards you mentioned, the M4-1 has the most distinctive feeling.

[wellington1869]

lol, I know iMav is a big fan of the M4 too.  I'm definitely curious to try one at some point.  For now  the ultranav won out on practical features though (windows key, which i'll need on the mac, and built in wrist rest).

There's a dirty M4 with one missing function key for $6 at auction on ebay. Might be a cheap way to try one out

[wellington1869]

If I can throw in my opinion because I have all of the mentioned.

The RT3200 is a funny example.  It is indeed a rubber dome but it is not a sheet with rubber domes but in fact a separate light green/aqua color rubber dome glued on to the membrane for each individual key.  This is a PS/2 keyboard.

I however would recommend the newer revision of the RT3200, the KPH0035.  It is a USB version Inside of the keyboard housing you will find the membrane is resting on a sheet of metal.  Truly better build quality then the RT3200 in feel and quality.  However, I like the uniqueness of the RT3200 with it's individual rubber dome style.

The Ultranav does not feel exactly like the thinkpad.  When you type on it, you can feel the rubber dome.  It's almost like the feeling of popping bubble wrap when typing.   It's weird because although this keyboard is not comfortable to use for the long haul, I find I can type the fastest on it.

thanks for the deets.  As you have all three models, would you have bought the m4 in this case too?

[Idiot_Hacker]

thanks for the deets.  As you have all three models, would you have bought the m4 in this case too?

I already have the black and white versions of the M4-1 that a brought a while ago.  It definitely has the best key feeling of all three.  The coolness factor is what got be to buy the Ultranav.  Look for the IBM labeled ones and not the Lenovo ones.

[wellington1869]

I already have the black and white versions of the M4-1 that a brought a while ago.  It definitely has the best key feeling of all three.  The coolness factor is what got be to buy the Ultranav.  Look for the IBM labeled ones and not the Lenovo ones.

cool, thanks. Ya this is an older ibm labelled one. Hopefully it will be good enough. It'll defniitely be convenient with the size/trackpad-trackpoint/wristrest and it does look pretty cool. But I'll have to try an m4 at some point though.

[skriefal]

Do the IBM-labeled Ultranavs have the Windows keys?  Thought they didn't.

[wellington1869]

Do the IBM-labeled Ultranavs have the Windows keys?  Thought they didn't.

ah crap, you're right  Oh well.  I should have studied its pic a little closer. But no worries, I just used Spark (keyboard remapper for macs) and successfully remapped the three function keys around using capslock as command.  Tested it out on my 1391401 (which also lacks windows key) on the mac and it all works just fine. Phew.

I'm still glad I got the ultranav tho; it looks very cool and functional.

[Idiot_Hacker]

Do the IBM-labeled Ultranavs have the Windows keys?  Thought they didn't.

It doesn't.... That's the way I like it

[wellington1869]

Update: My Ultranav just arrived.  First impressions:

Pros:
-Awesome!  Its uber-convenient, if you're looking for a portable keyboard.
-much lighter than I expected, based on the pics. It weighs almost nothing. Very comfy to toss in backpack or put in lap. Feather-weight.
-Much thinner than I expected based on the pics. Again super-easy to throw into backpack.
-nice and small - roughly the same as a sheet of 8x11.5 paper. And if you're using it as a keyboard or trackpad replacement for your laptop, you can place it directly over your laptop keyboard. Fits nicely.
-yet, its sturdy. Doesnt feel like its going to fall apart or flex much.
-love the trackpoint plus trackpad plus 5 mouse buttons. Very convenient. The trackpoint is classic IBM - very responsive and intuitive. I didnt realize how much I missed trackpoints (and how much the endurapro trackpoint blows in comparison) until I just used this and its like oh yeah, wow.
-trackpad is wonderful too, very responsive.  They're both so good i cant decide which to use.
-Love the built in wrist rest, very convenient especially when its in your lap.
-has "2-level" legs on the back if you like that kind of thing.
-has built in volume and mute keys for what its worth. They dont work out of the box tho, wonder if IBM has some software/driver for this. They probably do, will have to look for it on the ibm website.
-definitely looks v. cool.  
-cord is loooong. This may be a con actually.
-a standard ps2/usb adapter from radioshack seems to be working fine. You need one of those Y adapters since it has 2 ps2.


Key feel:
-not bad really. I know its not the "classic" ibm thinkpad feel, and I know the M4-1 is supposed to have that classic feel, (and I agree that classic thinkpad feel truly is pretty great for a laptop keyboard). However, its not bad, its not so mushy or anything that you dont want to type on it. Its fine for a portable. Like someone mentioned, I guess its like the newer lenovos, the R60s and so forth. Its not bad. Throw is deeper than you expect for a laptop board, and tactile feel is definitely there and somewhat crisp for a membrane based laptop board. Definitely on the better side of the spectrum for such a convenient board.

"Cons: "
-when numlock is enabled for your full sized board, then you plug this guy in, numlock is enabled here too, so you'll have to always disable numlock (alt-shift-scrolllock). This isnt a 'problem' per se, but if you have a regular size board at your desk, chances are you like leaving numlock turned on by default.

[wheel83]

i owned an rt3200.  i stepped on it by accident.  like i do with most things.  and it broke.  it is definitely not model m quality.

[talis]

-trackpad is wonderful too, very responsive. They're both so good i cant decide which to use.

I've got mine (and my laptop) configured to use the trackpoint as the mouse, and the touchpad purely for scrolling.  Its really nice to be able to scroll with the side of your thumb without having to move your finger off the trackpoint.

[wellington1869]

I've got mine (and my laptop) configured to use the trackpoint as the mouse, and the touchpad purely for scrolling.  Its really nice to be able to scroll with the side of your thumb without having to move your finger off the trackpoint.

talis, how did you do that? i want to do that too  Did you find driver software for this thing? I've found driver software for the usb model but didnt find anything at ibm site for ps/2 model. I'm about to install the USB driver anyway since on a different forum they said that worked - kind of. Some functions didnt come thru, tho all I want is scroll function.

[wellington1869]

HEY Welly, grab that crappy camera of yours sometime - I didn't know it was a mini keyboards.  Can you put side by side with another keyboard??

sure, pics in a few minutes

Doesn't look meaty, a little feminine if you ask me.

it brings out my nurturing, sensitive side. :-/

[wellington1869]

it used to be that you could hold middle button and move trackpoint to scroll. I'm not able to do that with this baby though.
Any thoughts on driver for this thing would be much appreciated... trying the usb driver now...

Another option if usb driver doesnt work is to install the R60 driver (even tho its not made for the external model). Hmmmm.

[talis]

talis, how did you do that? i want to do that too  Did you find driver software for this thing? I've found driver software for the usb model but didnt find anything at ibm site for ps/2 model. I'm about to install the USB driver anyway since on a different forum they said that worked - kind of. Some functions didnt come thru, tho all I want is scroll function.

Give this one a try if you haven't.  Mine was USB, but its the UltraNav drivers that provide the functionality (this one seems to be for ps/2 models).

[wellington1869]

Give this one a try if you haven't.  Mine was USB, but its the UltraNav drivers that provide the functionality (this one seems to be for ps/2 models).

thanks - hmmm, there's also this one:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-42487.html

says its ultranav drivers for the r60. what do you think? Well, i created a 'restore point' just in case.  I guess i'll try them all until one of them gives me scrolling.

I'm trying the usb-ultranav first since it seems made for external board (tho for the usb one). then i'll try the straight ultranav drivers above, if that one doesnt give me scroll function.

[talis]

Looks like the USB driver should work :

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=49973

[wellington1869]

Looks like the USB driver should work :

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=49973

just installed it and rebooted, nothing has changed and i dont see where to set the options.
The same forum mentioned a synaptics driver, guess i could try that too. I think i'll try the ibm ultranav drivers next though.

On the bright side, loving this board. Typing action is pretty slick, and the generous-sized wrist rests are particularly handy when you're in bed or on the couch.

[wellington1869]

hmmm, none of this worked as far as getting the scrolling function. I even chatted with an ibm representative.
He sent me here:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-61982

which led me back to the same usb ultranav driver.

Which is this one basically:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-45849

And which in the forum mentioned above, people said it worked for them. Well, not working for me! hmmmm. Wrestling with it some more...

Basic problem is, my XP is only recognizing a HID compliant mouse. But what I need to see is a "IBM PS/2 TRACKPOINT" listing. Not seeing that. If i see that, then supposedly I would see a "trackpoint" or "ultranav" option in controlpanel/mouse settings, which then would let me configure scrolling.

[cchan]

are you perchance using a USB / PS/2 adapter?

[talis]

thank you it worked (the USB version for a PS/2) ONLY when i installed it Then manually update the mouse driver

Try installing This over the USB drivers.  Or manually update the HID device driver using that.

[wellington1869]

are you perchance using a USB / PS/2 adapter?

yes ma'am. I think thats the basic problem.  What I read on the forums elsewhere seems to reinforce this. I think with the adapter in place I'm going to lose both the scroll function and the trackpoint-click function. Oh well.

I've got a software workaround in place tho, no biggie. ("scroll navigator" - right click + mouse = scroll).  There are bunch of these programs around (I like "mouseimp" better, more configurable, but i already use scroll navigator anyway for the wheel acceleration features).  So I'm good for now actually. (And anyway, i'm going to be using this mostly on my mac where all the functions are kaput anyway

Try installing This over the USB drivers.  Or manually update the HID device driver using that.

Thanks talis, I will try that for sure. Having just killed over an hour on this dumb thing, I'll return to it later tonite. I have a feeling tho that the ps2-usb adapter is going to doom me.


By the way, after experiencing the wonders of the ultranav, I'm seriously considering this baby:




About 85 bucks shipped on ebay or amazon.  Its gotten rid of the arrow cluster too, which i hate, and has the numpad which i like, and has both trackpoint and trackpad (which i like) and built in wrist rest and is USB to boot. And looks pretty sleek.

And since its USB, I wont have any driver PS2 issues either

[wellington1869]

some pics of the "pretty-cool" ultranav:

Compared to endurapro: no arrow cluster or numpad.




Thin: Compare to cell phone:




Fits over laptop keyboard nicely. Rubber feet on bottom raise it up a touch.




About size of sheet of paper:

[cchan]

yeah, adapters identify themselves as generic keyboards and mouses so you don't get the benefit of drivers that are looking for the specific type of keyboard/mouse. I want a USB tenkeyed ultranav. I am jealous.

[wellington1869]

I want a USB tenkeyed ultranav. I am jealous.

well if you get one before I do then I'll be jealous.  The amazon reviews are pretty positive.

[cchan]

nah, i don't have ninety bucks. it's fun to look at though~

[wellington1869]

nah, i don't have ninety bucks.

lol me neither at the moment

Couple of 'quality control' complaints (excessive flex, non-working keys or buttons) among the reviews for the tenkeyless on amazon, so this is probably a lenovo-built model.  I dont think IBM made the tenkeyless version of this. Cant find any ibm versions of these on ebay either (only lenovo, it looks like). Thats a bummer.

Tho if I had 90 to spare i'd prolly spring for one anyway

[wellington1869]

yeah, adapters identify themselves as generic keyboards and mouses so you don't get the benefit of drivers that are looking for the specific type of keyboard/mouse..

would an "active" ps2-usb converter make any difference? I wonder. a shot in the dark.

[cchan]

The active ones are what I was talking about. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

[zwmalone]

I doubt it because an active adapter shows up as a device on it's own and actively interprets the signals sent.  With a passive adapter, the keyboard recognises that it's connected via USB and sends the necessary signals in Native USB... it's like having a built in adapter...  If it isn't showing itself as something other than a generic keyboard with the passive adapter, it certainly won't wit the active adapter...

[wellington1869]

The active ones are what I was talking about. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

well it wouldnt be convenient anyway, even if it did work. cuz it means two active ones, 2 things to plug in, probably an extension cord on one of them, etc etc. Not too convenient.

(also clicky keyboards says the active blue cube will only work with a keyb and not a mouse)

I suppose I should have gotten the usb one to begin with. There's a lesson for the kids out there.

(Altho the usb ones seem to be mostly lenovo, which apparenty means lower quality). Just cant win.

Anyway my software scroll is working fine.

[talis]

I've never tried it, but something like this may work for a PC :

http://www.adeltek.com/product_info.php?products_id=741

[zwmalone]

It's still a standard USB-PS/2 adapter except in a PCI format...

[talis]

It's still a standard USB-PS/2 adapter except in a PCI format...

Ah your right, just read it quickly and it claimed separate chipset for the PS/2 and USB (the second chipset seems to be the usb/ps/2 bridge).