realforce 87u came in

[karlito]

Nutshell:
Super high quality membrane board. No key rattle etc.  If I did a blind taste test this is the board i would pick.

That being said it isn't perfect and in real world terms it's probably worth $100 max.  But if you want the "best" then I guess you have to pay the piper but I'm pretty sure you could find a < $100 keyboard that is almost as good as this one.  It certainly hasn't lived up to the massive hype generated in this forum...

Pros:
quiet like a membrane (quieter than my g15 cause the keys don't rattle)
Nice membrane feel (after a certain amount of key travel the key resistance is totally gone)

Cons:
Keys are stiffer than I would like (I want them all 35g)
Wider than a filco tenkeyless
Taller than a filco tenkeyless (this matters a LOT for me as the bottom of the keyboard has wider plastic so my wrist wrest is further from the keys which is really messing me up)
Cost
It weighs 7 pounds (I didn't actually weight it but damn it's heavy)

Other notes:
When typing/playing I don't even notice that the keys are weighted differently. I had actually forgotten that they were and I was like hey I got sent the wrong board... then I poked them 1 by 1 w/ the same finger and there's definitely a difference.

[pmyshkin]

You might want to be careful with getting you credit card in the shot like that.

I never believed that the realforce was really worth the $256. I think I saw some people on here expressing the same sentiments about the HHKB Pro 2, although that board does have the alternative layout going for it.

[majestouch]

Nutshell:
Super high quality membrane board. No key rattle etc.  If I did a blind taste test this is the board i would pick.

That being said it isn't perfect and in real world terms it's probably worth $100 max.  But if you want the "best" then I guess you have to pay the piper but I'm pretty sure you could find a < $100 keyboard that is almost as good as this one.  It certainly hasn't lived up to the massive hype generated in this forum...

Hi karlito,

I can't help but chime in here The Realforce isn't actually a membrane board. Were you to open up a store bought $20 membrane board and your Realforce and compare them visually they will look nothing alike. In fact every switch inside a Realforce is an individual component; there is no flimsy membrane with conductive backing to speak of. Additionally, Realforce switches are capacitive in their actuation, so the electrical properties of each switch, and the detection circuitry of the board are FAR removed from that of $20 or even $100 conductive membrane switch based boards. These are factors that are usually very important to the buyers of this board.

I also get the idea from your comments that your pricing quantification of ~$100 is just a scaling based on the feel of the keyboard versus the feel of other boards. I guess that is one facet of evaluation; and that's fair, but just stopping there omits what makes this board cost what it costs. The fit and finish of a Realforce, from the internal circuitry to the molded plastic casing, are about the highest quality the consumer market ever sees, and the fact that it is manufactured entirely in Japan means very high quality control.

Personally, I don't find Topre switches to feel like any membrane board I've ever touched, but if you do find something that almost feels the same for less than $100, then I'll buy your Realforce

[kyamei]

Other notes:
When typing/playing I don't even notice that the keys are weighted differently. I had actually forgotten that they were and I was like hey I got sent the wrong board... then I poked them 1 by 1 w/ the same finger and there's definitely a difference.

I always hear people say this, but isn't that the point of weighted keys?

[itlnstln]

I always hear people say this, but isn't that the point of weighted keys?

The idea is that weaker fingers, like pinkies, don't have to press as hard as stronger fingers, like index fingers.  Thus, the keys under the weaker fingers have a lower acuation force than those under the stronger fingers.

[kyamei]

And that should make all the keys feel the same, assuming you press the pinkie keys with the pinkies.

[itlnstln]

And that should make all the keys feel the same, assuming you press the pinkie keys with the pinkies.

That's probably correct, hence why karlito couldn't really tell until they were pressed one-by-one.

[kyamei]

That's probably correct, hence why karlito couldn't really tell until they were pressed one-by-one.

That's what I was trying to get at :smile:

[itlnstln]

That's what I was trying to get at :smile:

10-4.  It's early, and I haven't had any coffee yet.

[o2dazone]

I think the general problem is that people expect the "awesomeness" of a keyboard to scale linearly with how much money you put into it. The majority of what you're paying for is the long lasting capacitive switches. Construction might be a little nicer, the availability of non legend keys might be a bit more robust, but in the end you're still typing on a switch dome with a rubber spring inside.

Something I've noticed reading the forums before making my purchase of an HHKB is people either love it, or you hate it (regarding price). Some people have turned around and sold their capacitive boards right after getting one, because they weren't blown away like they were going from white alps to blue cherries. I think the feeling they were expecting in their minds did not live up to the reality.

That said, give your keyboard some time and see if you don't fall in love with it. If you don't feel the keyboard was worth the money, you can always sell it here in the classifieds. When I got my HHKB I thought "Jesus that sure is a lot of money for a keyboard like this" and wasn't absolutely shocked like I was going from a $20 dell keyboard to a G80-3000. Then I typed on it for about a week, and it all made much more sense. And the more I type on it, the more I find why I like it (I got an HHK so some of the reasons are specific)


Edit: Didn't want to make it sound like that that is your issue with the board. This was more something I've been thinking about for a long time, not directed towards you or anything.

[wellington1869]

good review, I think this thread sums up the pros and cons pretty well. (the *big* con being price).

 but I'm pretty sure you could find a < $100 keyboard that is almost as good as this one

my 'topre substitute' right now is a heavily greased up endurapro. I really do think it feels topre-ish. Right down to a subdued 'thock' sound and ultra-smooth key action (I greased the four corners of the stem (in addition to the spring) and that makes the key action ultrasmooth on it).  I got the 'thock' from a combination of heavily greased springs and rubber washers on the landing. thock-thock.

Of course its got heavier key action and that dang numpad hanging off the right side. On the other hand, it cost me zero since I traded an old board for it.

But ya, I'll have to buy an 87U at some point when I have more disposable income. The modded endurapro does fine till then tho, so no rush.

[ch_123]

Im pondering whether I should get one of these or not. I sold off my Endurapro, and I intend selling my Dell AT at some point. I'm still deciding between one of these, and a blue cherry Filco (whenever they come out)

If I did a blind taste test this is the board i would pick.

Is that to say that you'd prefer it over your other keyboards? What other boards do you have?

[wellington1869]

i also wonder if i'd like differently weighted keys or not.  Its one of those things I suppose you have to try out in person to know.

[itlnstln]

Keyboard lip at front is quarter inch vs half inch.
 
Not that big a difference.

I would respectfully disagree with you on this.  I prefer the extra half inch on the front lip.  I feel it better spaces my fingers from the keys.  I feel a little more comfortable typing on just about all my other keyboards over my Costars because of this.  My wrist rest is not curved like karlito's, though.

[wellington1869]

My wrist rest is not curved like karlito's, though.

he could always flip the wrist rest 180 degrees though. I have that curved model somewhere, I think he has it set up backwards actually (ie, front facing back). The curved part is supposed to face the user I think.   (hell, maybe thats the problem )

[karlito]

yea i know it's not a membrane but it feels similar to a $10 gateway membrane board I have here and even more similar to an old dell board I have.

All I intended to do w/ this post is put people back into perspective.  Yes it's better than any other board I've tried... but not by much... and if you did the math of $256/$30 = 8.5... It is no where near 8 times better than any other board... and honestly I would be shocked if the bill of materials for this board is over $70 that's why I'm saying it's a $100 board with a Ferrari label slapped on it.

So anyways it's a good board just not way better than another cheaper board... you wont type faster... you wont want to type more etc etc. No magical properties here.

[ch_123]

Yes it's better than any other board I've tried...

Out of curiosity, what would they be?

[wellington1869]

yea i know it's not a membrane but it feels similar to a $10 gateway membrane board I have here and even more similar to an old dell board I have.

All I intended to do w/ this post is put people back into perspective.  Yes it's better than any other board I've tried... but not by much... and if you did the math of $256/$30 = 8.5... It is no where near 8 times better than any other board... and honestly I would be shocked if the bill of materials for this board is over $70 that's why I'm saying it's a $100 board with a Ferrari label slapped on it.

So anyways it's a good board just not way better than another cheaper board... you wont type faster... you wont want to type more etc etc. No magical properties here.

I'd agree with most of this I guess (esp complaints about price), tho I'll just say in its defense it *was* the "smoothest" switch i ever tried. I guess that might be worth a lot to some people. I mean so smooth that it was "strikingly different" from anything else i've ever tried (ie, in that one regard).  But ya, I agree that close to $300 is definitely a luxury to say the least (a 'boutique' item as ripster says).  Hell, people pay 2 grand for ibooks after all when you can have a perfectly well functioning dell for $500 these days.  Is osx 4x better than a dell? To some people it is (to me it isnt )

[Korbin]

yea i know it's not a membrane but it feels similar to a $10 gateway membrane board I have here and even more similar to an old dell board I have.

All I intended to do w/ this post is put people back into perspective.  Yes it's better than any other board I've tried... but not by much... and if you did the math of $256/$30 = 8.5... It is no where near 8 times better than any other board... and honestly I would be shocked if the bill of materials for this board is over $70 that's why I'm saying it's a $100 board with a Ferrari label slapped on it.

So anyways it's a good board just not way better than another cheaper board... you wont type faster... you wont want to type more etc etc. No magical properties here.

8 times better.... wow that's an insanely high standard.

I don't mean to downplay this, but let's face it..... it's a keyboard.

It's like camparing a 2K racing bicycle to one you get for 100 bucks at wal-mart . The 2K bike has a lot of engineering going (as was said before), lighter/exotic materials, aerodynamics, etc all add cost that no one would notice by looking at and sometimes no one would notice by riding either. This can be said about a lot products.

Tennis racquets are another example of this. Your game is not gonna improve because you paid 300 bucks for a stick instead of 50. That's not really a realistic expectation.

It's possible that the price might have brought your expectations up to a level that could only lead to disapointment. The price is relative to the manufacturing cost, not how much "better" (obviously this is subjective) it is to other products like it. Keep in mind that geekhackers like the topre switch, which is to say that the switch isn't for everyone, especially considering the price.

 The good news as that you have the option to sell it and continue using your logitech board

[wellington1869]

The 87U "a" and ";" keys still fire for me sometimes while just resting on the keyboard

well you just convinced me that when time comes for me to buy a 87U, i'll be choosing the all 55gm model

[CrapTypist]

The light switches on the Realforce have a *very* subtle tactile bump to them.  I do find that if I really rest my hands absent-mindedly on the keyboard, I might trigger a string of "a"s now and then, but that doesn't bother me too much, just something to look out for.

I've found I really do like the graduated force, especially when trying to touch-type fast (roughing out a document).  However, when editing, I switch to the M Space Saver, because I'm generally going for accuracy over speed, and the (very stiff) action of the keys makes me think a bit harder about what I'm doing.

For just letting the ideas fly and "putting pen to paper", the Topre is amazing.  I can type way, way faster compared to my other boards with zero pain.  I wouldn't trade it for the all-55g model.  My pinkies are WEAK.

[karlito]

Out of curiosity, what would they be?

filco tenkeyless (brown cherry)
smk-88 (black cherry)
scorpious something or other (blue cherry)
logitech g15 (the bad boy!)
saitek eclipse
happy hacker lite
$10 brown box tried and trued gateway w/ usb hub! too bad it was after they dropped the gateway 2000 or it would be great for nostalgia too
various other dell/ibm/hp boards that were all membranes

anyways I think i made my point... good board just not handed down from god himself like other reviewers claim (cough xsphat).

Only you can decide if it's worth it for you...

+No key rattle (never used a board with key caps this tight)
+super quiet (all cherries annoy me)
+no number pad
+highly textured key caps (they better not wear out like my filco grumble)
+high resistance of key at very top then force drops a lot and is easy to bottom out... like most quality membrane boards. This is opposed to all cherry switches which continually get harder to press which I really dislike.
+oversized left alt key (goes slightly passed the middle of the X key where as filco stops at 1/4)
+oversized left control key
+Has a numlock key (my bios requires pressin + or - on the numpad... yes it's weird talk to MSI about it not me)

-I find the arrow keys as equally useless as the numpad... and honestly if I had to choose between the two i would take the numpad... it does everything the arrow key group does and more.
-no usb hub (seriously wtf) sure i have front usb on my pc but using flash drives and camera would be so much easier from the board.
-The spacebar has a very sharp edge to it... it's giving me gamers thumb.

So for me given the currently available keyboards (that i know of, no numpad/arrow key group rules out a lot of candidates) this Realforce is probably worth is for me. Time will tell cause I liked the filco until the keycaps wore out and became slippery. *BUT* If logitech made a numpadless g15 then I would not buy this board (again)... it might even be replaced because g15 keys are lighter.

[ch_123]

Saying that you'd prefer them over blue or brown cherries is quite the praise for the Topre, but I can certainly see what you mean though. A $250 keyboard would have to be something really special to justify that kind of price.

+high resistance of key at very top then force drops a lot and is easy to bottom out... like most quality membrane boards. This is opposed to all cherry switches which continually get harder to press which I really dislike.

Are you refering just to your black Cherry keyboard, or does that apply to all of them?

and honestly if I had to choose between the two i would take the numpad... it does everything the arrow key group does and more.

As someone who owns a keyboard that just has a numpad (a Model F) believe me, you start to miss those seperate arrow/home-end keys. Although the numpad is handy for certain games that make use of it.

Thanks for the details anyway

[wellington1869]

+No key rattle (never used a board with key caps this tight)

thats the feature that jumped out at me when I used the torpre. Never used one that tight/smooth. The downstroke is like a teflon piston. Also that the board was much quieter than I expected. And I think the 'velvety bottom' is somewhat unique feeling.  But ya, like everything else it comes down to preference and pocketbook I guess.

+high resistance of key at very top then force drops a lot and is easy to bottom out... like most quality membrane boards. This is opposed to all cherry switches which continually get harder to press which I really dislike.

its funny, thats what I tend to like (which is why, i guess, i gravitated back to bs and 'real simplified alps'). The latter especially keeps its light-to-medium resistance throughout the downstroke (which I rather like, feels meaty).  I guess thats why I gave up on the cherries.

-I find the arrow keys as equally useless as the numpad... and honestly if I had to choose between the two i would take the numpad...

me too.

[wellington1869]

now you've made me hungry.

[karlito]

been using this keyboard a week now and just wanted to comment on the black letting on gray keycaps... call me old (maybe it's poor lighting?) but they may as well be blank cause I cant see the suckers unless I lean over the keyboard and get a little closer.

that being said it's true what 'das keyboard' preached, when you cant see the keys you learn them. I was annoyed at first cause some number keys (5, 6, 9, 0) and symbols I  would glance at the keyboard to find their location but now i've almost learned them all... I still mash a few keys to find symbols but no more glancing cause well I cant see anything anyways!

[o2dazone]

What are your thought from your first post?

[xsphat]

(cough xsphat)

FY

[patrickgeekhack]

FY

Usually, I have to lookup most of the acronym, but I did not have to for this one :-)

[patrickgeekhack]

What are your thought from your first post?

Karlito, can you update us on your opinion on the board now that you've had it for a longer period?

[maxlugar]

Laptop girl seems to have left quite an impression for the few hours she was my avatar

I realize this is an ancient post, but I just can't resist...

I'll bet you have lots of experience "paying by the hour" webwit  

[xfocus]

I have an 87U en route to my house.  It's supposed to get here on Saturday and I'm dying to hear a followup review by Karlito.

[maxlugar]

I have an 87U en route to my house.  It's supposed to get here on Saturday and I'm dying to hear a followup review by Karlito.

The Topre Realforce 87U is probably the most comfortable keyboard I've ever owned.  The 87U and HHKB Pro2 keyboards are considered "botique" keyboards by many, but the premium price they command is supported by advanced key switch engineering and outstanding build quality.

[quadibloc]

I have to think that it is true that a $300 keyboard can't be expected to be obviously three times better than a $100 keyboard, and that it does justify its price to those who value it if it's only better in relatively subtle ways than lesser keyboards... if you cannot get one as good at that lower price level.

First, there's cheap and shoddy.

Then, you pay more, and you get good quality.

But if you insist on only the very best... you will have to pay quite a bit more, and the improvement on a good quality item will indeed not be as spectacular as the jump from cheap and shoddy to good quality.

So, in that light, saying that a Topre isn't obviously worth its price isn't really a serious criticism of that keyboard, but it's still a fair warning to people who perhaps aren't ready for it.

What surprised me in this thread is to read about all these people who are selling off their EnduraPro keyboards.

I'm happy with my Model M, and based on what I've heard here, I'm not at all convinced that I'd necessarily even like a Topre better.

Come to think of it, I'm probably not typing properly on my Model M; I'm touch-typing, but I think I'm bottoming out most or all of the time. I don't think they make a mechanical keyboard with a heavier touch than a Model M (although with rubber domes, you can never quite bottom out, because the rubber will take a lot of squeezing...) if I understand what I've been reading here properly.

[rdjack21]

I'm happy with my Model M, and based on what I've heard here, I'm not at all convinced that I'd necessarily even like a Topre better.

It really depends on you. But what I have noticed is that the majority of those that like the heaver switches (BS and White Alps) tend to not like Topre switches. That does not mean that all of the heavy hitters that have tried them don't like them just that the majority don't. We have a few members that love both. I started on a BS board then moved to lighter switches (Cherry blues then browns) then moved to the Topre and love them.

Come to think of it, I'm probably not typing properly on my Model M; I'm touch-typing, but I think I'm bottoming out most or all of the time. I don't think they make a mechanical keyboard with a heavier touch than a Model M (although with rubber domes, you can never quite bottom out, because the rubber will take a lot of squeezing...) if I understand what I've been reading here properly.

Sounds like a heavy hitter to me. If you are happy with what you have no need to try a Topre. But if you are dissatisfied then by all means try one. I would not have tried the Topre myself if I was satisfied with the other boards I have tried but they were just missing something so I tried a Topre and have not really looked back. Oh I will plug in my Space saver every now and then because I still like it but I would not want to type on it all day any more.

[maxlugar]

It really depends on you. But what I have noticed is that the majority of those that like the heaver switches (BS and White Alps) tend to not like Topre switches. That does not mean that all of the heavy hitters that have tried them don't like them just that the majority don't. We have a few members that love both. I started on a BS board then moved to lighter switches (Cherry blues then browns) then moved to the Topre and love them.

I like 'em heavy and loud (84-key PC AT & Model Ms) all the way to light and quiet (HHKB Pro 2 & Realforce 87U) and pretty much everything in between.  I've even become attached to my Filco with Blue Cherry switches.  The only keyboard I've tried and didn't care for was a Majestouch with Brown Cherry switches.  Perhaps I didn't give it enough time...

I can almost say, " I never met a keyboard I didn't like"  

Edit:  webwit said said something similar...except I don't believe he was talking about keyboards  

[quadibloc]

Sounds like a heavy hitter to me. If you are happy with what you have no need to try a Topre.

I guess my question is, though, is there an even heavier keyboard than the Model M?

Not necessarily heavier for activation, since even with lighter keyboards I don't have a problem with typing letters by accident, having learned not to rest my fingers heavily on the keys when I learned to type on an electric typewriter (after first learning how to type on a manual). But heavier for bottoming out.

Incidentally, having learned from here about the DELL AT101W keyboard, I've been looking around at the local thrift shops.

The keyboard I found with double-shot keys (eventually I'll get around to taking a photo!) although it has switches which have blue stems, the stems are not on a square base, like modern Cherry MX switches, they're round stems coming out of a round hole in the switch.

Today, I bought a Compaq RT101.

I found on the web pictures of this keyboard on this Chinese-language page:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3f56f14101000a7v.html

however, the stems of the "switches" are black on my keyboard. There's a metal back (thin sheet metal, not heavy gauge like on a Model M) to the circuit board, but apparently the keyboard is rubber dome, although some sites say it is mechanical.

[nycxandy]

I just put in my purchase.  I can't wait to get my hands on this!

[xfocus]

I just put in my purchase.  I can't wait to get my hands on this!

Congrats on the purchase.  I've been using mine for a week and it's a totally different experience from a Mechanical or Membrane board.  Someone on this board said, "You keep coming back to the Topre because it feels like a comfy pair of slippers", and that's the best description I can give.

I switched out to my Blue Cherry board today to change things up and while it's a treat to use the Blue Cherries, it's more of a novelty feel.  The Topre is like typing on velvet.

[nycxandy]

Congrats on the purchase.  I've been using mine for a week and it's a totally different experience from a Mechanical or Membrane board.  Someone on this board said, "You keep coming back to the Topre because it feels like a comfy pair of slippers", and that's the best description I can give.

I switched out to my Blue Cherry board today to change things up and while it's a treat to use the Blue Cherries, it's more of a novelty feel.  The Topre is like typing on velvet.

From your signature, it appears that I'm in your exact same shoes.  I'm currently using the Filco Tactile Click keyboard (first mechanical) and it's been such an experience so far after my years and years with the conventional membrane keyboards.  I'm pretty sure the difference won't be day and night this time around.

[xfocus]

From your signature, it appears that I'm in your exact same shoes.  I'm currently using the Filco Tactile Click keyboard (first mechanical) and it's been such an experience so far after my years and years with the conventional membrane keyboards.  I'm pretty sure the difference won't be day and night this time around.

You should take a look at my review of the Realforce here and my followup post regarding my impressions after typing on the Filco again.  It's hard to compare and contrast the two of them considering they're so different but they both have their strong points.