[GB] Delta Blues - Alps DCS keyset from SP - GB in now live on PMK

[prox]

I'm all in on a set of these, however I'm curious as to what you've conceptualised for Main Sets + Add-on packs?
Just trying to figure out what I'll be needing to purchase for my Matias Mini Quiet Pro / Secure Pro 

Note that the stabilizers on your keyboard aren’t going to work with the stabilizer insert mounts on SP keycaps. So for all the keycaps larger than 1.5x1, you can either go without stabilizers, stick with your current keycaps, or find old Alps keycaps somewhere.

(Or alternately it might be possible to 3d print custom stabilizer inserts which would fit, but no one has tried that yet.)

Ahh! This is why I need to stay up to date with GH discussions. Thank you for the info!

I might have to source some of the white caps from a mac matias board and dye them then.... That could be fun

[Badwrench]

I'm all in on a set of these, however I'm curious as to what you've conceptualised for Main Sets + Add-on packs?
Just trying to figure out what I'll be needing to purchase for my Matias Mini Quiet Pro / Secure Pro 

Note that the stabilizers on your keyboard aren’t going to work with the stabilizer insert mounts on SP keycaps. So for all the keycaps larger than 1.5x1, you can either go without stabilizers, stick with your current keycaps, or find old Alps keycaps somewhere.

(Or alternately it might be possible to 3d print custom stabilizer inserts which would fit, but no one has tried that yet.)

Ahh! This is why I need to stay up to date with GH discussions. Thank you for the info!

I might have to source some of the white caps from a mac matias board and dye them then.... That could be fun

That is actually one of the reasons i am leaning toward a black base set.
I have added a few keys to the base and mod set that you dont normally see, but are more common to some more common alps boards.

[Matias]

Ok, a little update.  I have found out that we can do language packs, but the add-on legends would have to be pad printed. 

As for stabilizer spacing, here are the specs:
(Attachment Link)

Updating op with this image. 

Okay, this might work.

Do you have samples of these keys?  If I sent you stabs and stab clips, would you be able to try them out?

[Badwrench]

Ok, a little update.  I have found out that we can do language packs, but the add-on legends would have to be pad printed. 

As for stabilizer spacing, here are the specs:
(Attachment Link)

Updating op with this image. 

Okay, this might work.

Do you have samples of these keys?  If I sent you stabs and stab clips, would you be able to try them out?

I will take some measurements of some caps I have at home.  I don't have any of the mods in hand as they would have to be produced.  I am pretty sure this is standard cherry spacing on the mod stabilizers, but will confirm first.  The only alps board I have right now is a Chicony KB-5181, but I will measure both the stabilizer spacing on that and on a standard cherry cap to see what they are. 

[Badwrench]

One thing that I think would help this first Alps GB would be to include some of the more common keys found on existing boards so that users could at least change out the alpha set and numpad numerals if they wanted something different.  From what I have seen (please speak up if you have anything else that some of the more common alps boards have that I missed), these would be the potential kits:

colorway is not finalized, these are just the ones I like the most.

Alphas:


Mods:


RGB:

[jacobolus]

Matias: will your stabilizer plate clips grab on a 1/16" acrylic plate (~1.6mm)? If so, I have various Alps keycaps with both standard Alps rectangular stabilizer inserts and with cruciform “costar-style” stabilizer inserts. I’d be happy to test various combinations out, if you have some samples of the stabilizer wired / clips / inserts.

I need to do some tests of laser cut acrylic plates for grabbing Matias switches anyway in the next few days, for some other projects, and I’ll be glad to make a post – provide the relevant vector files under open license – about making custom hand-wired Alps- or Matias-switch layered acrylic keyboards when I’m done.

[jacobolus]

Mods:
(Attachment Link)

Again, note that these are only going to work on the subset of Alps keyboards that use MX/costar-style cruciform stabilizer inserts, which is a fraction of old Alps boards, and those tend to use “bigass enter” keys, which I’m not sure anyone is going to be able to match with new keycaps. So the 1u, 1.25u, and 1.5u caps will work great wherever, but the larger caps are only going to be useful on a handful of old keyboards or various new keyboard projects (like the upcoming Matias 60% board, or some of MassDrop’s planned keyboards).

[Badwrench]

Mods:
(Attachment Link)

Again, note that these are only going to work on the subset of Alps keyboards that use MX/costar-style cruciform stabilizer inserts, which is a fraction of old Alps boards, and those tend to use “bigass enter” keys, which I’m not sure anyone is going to be able to match with new keycaps. So the 1u, 1.25u, and 1.5u caps will work great wherever, but the larger caps are only going to be useful on a handful of old keyboards or various new keyboard projects (like the upcoming Matias 60% board, or some of MassDrop’s planned keyboards).

Very true.  This mod set will have limited usability with older boards, but I am hoping that the current trend of more standard ansi (1.25/1.5 bottom row) layout boards using either harvested alps switches or Matias switches will continue to grow.  This potential GB will definitely be a learning curve as it has yet to be done.   

[CommonCurt]

The Mathias board also uses some massive oversized modifiers on the bottom row that will negate any benefit of a more standard cap. 

I know I have had some old Alps boards that had an MX style stabilizer insert, so the trick may be to see if I can find some and if I can, to cast a ton of them..

I have a whole bag of them that I just pulled from my Chicony. They look exactly like the Costar inserts from my QFR.  I will get a picture of them side by side tomorrow.  Might be that we can get away with the standard stabilizer inserts.

Badwrench,

Did you ever compare the inserts from your Chicony with the Costar inserts?

[Badwrench]

The Mathias board also uses some massive oversized modifiers on the bottom row that will negate any benefit of a more standard cap. 

I know I have had some old Alps boards that had an MX style stabilizer insert, so the trick may be to see if I can find some and if I can, to cast a ton of them..

I have a whole bag of them that I just pulled from my Chicony. They look exactly like the Costar inserts from my QFR.  I will get a picture of them side by side tomorrow.  Might be that we can get away with the standard stabilizer inserts.

Badwrench,

Did you ever compare the inserts from your Chicony with the Costar inserts?

Yeah, i did.  I will post some picture tomorrow.  They are very similar.  The notches for the wire from the chicony are a couple mm shorter. 

[Hak Foo]

To note, the AT101W has a stepped key in Row 3.  It's effectively a 1.5x with a .25x step on it,

I know the MX stepped keys tend to be ~1.25x with a .5x step.

[jacobolus]

To note, the AT101W has a stepped key in Row 3.  It's effectively a 1.5x with a .25x step on it,

I know the MX stepped keys tend to be ~1.25x with a .5x step.

SP’s DCS family includes, for row 3:
1 x 1.75
1 x 1.75, .25 step right
1 x 1.75, .5 step right
1 x 1.75, .375 step L & R

Which should cover the great majority of keyboards, though there might be a few oddball examples of yet another type of step.

[Hak Foo]

1 x 1.75, .375 step L & R

Exciting stuff!

[jacobolus]

1 x 1.75, .375 step L & R

Exciting stuff!

[Hak Foo]

Exactly... or just a way to get a stepped key that will work with a "conventional" layout (i. e. Ducky 1008XM, Focus 2001 or 9000) using a full-width bugger in that spot.

[Matias]

Matias: will your stabilizer plate clips grab on a 1/16" acrylic plate (~1.6mm)? If so, I have various Alps keycaps with both standard Alps rectangular stabilizer inserts and with cruciform “costar-style” stabilizer inserts. I’d be happy to test various combinations out, if you have some samples of the stabilizer wired / clips / inserts.

Will have to try it and let you know.  I have plates of various thickness.  Can probably check tomorrow.

I need to do some tests of laser cut acrylic plates for grabbing Matias switches anyway in the next few days, for some other projects, and I’ll be glad to make a post – provide the relevant vector files under open license – about making custom hand-wired Alps- or Matias-switch layered acrylic keyboards when I’m done.

Great!

[Badwrench]

The Mathias board also uses some massive oversized modifiers on the bottom row that will negate any benefit of a more standard cap. 

I know I have had some old Alps boards that had an MX style stabilizer insert, so the trick may be to see if I can find some and if I can, to cast a ton of them..

I have a whole bag of them that I just pulled from my Chicony. They look exactly like the Costar inserts from my QFR.  I will get a picture of them side by side tomorrow.  Might be that we can get away with the standard stabilizer inserts.

Badwrench,

Did you ever compare the inserts from your Chicony with the Costar inserts?

Yeah, i did.  I will post some picture tomorrow.  They are very similar.  The notches for the wire from the chicony are a couple mm shorter.

The stabilizer mount from the Chicony is the slighly rounded one.  The other (with some blue paint) is a Costar from my QFR.  Once in the cap, the dimensions are the same, but the Chicony has a shorter stroke for the wire. 


Upon further investigation of the stab wires on the Chicony, there is a different bend to get around the switch housing, but the plate mounted slots are identical to costar. 

[Matias]

The stabilizer mount from the Chicony is the slighly rounded one.  The other (with some blue paint) is a Costar from my QFR.  Once in the cap, the dimensions are the same, but the Chicony has a shorter stroke for the wire. 

(Attachment Link)

These stab clips should allow just about any balance bar (of appropriate width) to work with SP's ALPS caps.

[Hak Foo]

In my experience, if you have Costar-style stabilizer clips on the board, you can either use a shorter balance bar and Costar-style inserts, or a slightly longer one and ALPS-style inserts on the keys.

If the board has ALPS-style stabilizer wires, no go.  I just went and tested (board: Focus 2001; keycaps: from a Ducky 1008XM) -- on the biggest key I can test easily, the right shift, the stabilizer wires miss the inserts entirely.  On other keys, they don't allow enough travel to seat the cap on the key.

I'm also unsure if you can swap the Costar wire... the ALPS clips are so far apart on right shift,  that I'm not sure the Costar wires will fit.  I suspect what we'd just need is to use Costar inserts, but a custom bent wire.

[Badwrench]

What additional keys do you guys want to see in the base set?  So far the only one I know of is an R2 1.25x }] key.  This is to allow people that want to put an alpha set on an older board to do so. 

[Hak Foo]

A row 4 |\ would support both ISO boards and a fair variety of big enter + big backspace boards (typical: Focus 2001)

1.5-1-1.5 mods are all but a necessity for vintage boards.

Also hat key

[Badwrench]

Poll is up 

Delta Blues:



Heavenly Blues:



Triumph-Adler:


Note that this set would be done in the Cherry font so there will already be more contrast from the thicker letters/symbols. 

[c137]

Hi!

I would prefer the Delta Blues.

Also, I think the set would go well with the "Wraith" board I am doing an interest check on right now (if the Matias stabilizers work with these caps).

[Matias]

Badwrench, see below....


GON is interested in doing a PCB and Plate for ALPS, and is looking for a collaborator to work with SP to get keycaps for it.  You should connect.  It'll help get the numbers up on this IC.

He'll need samples from SP to test with his design. 

If SP or Tai Hao(Tai Hao would be better for pricing) makes ALPS caps /w cross hole stabilizers(CHERRY type), I would design my board for it.
I prefer CHERRY PCB mount Stabilizers. Of course this PCB can fit ALPS original(like costar) stabilizers /w proper plate.

I think it would be great I can colaborated GB with someone who will be in charge of Keycaps from SP, so that I can concentrate on the PCB and the Plate. If we GB in this way, I think we can reduce time dramatically.
As you see in NerD GH60 Housing GB(Later changed into NerD 60 due to delay of GH60 PCB release), NerD 60 Black PCBs GB that I ran, I don't like taking too much delay. I like fast process, only if the fund(payments) is raised fast enough.

[pasph]

In what colors you can supply spacebars, only black and white?

[Matias]

In what colors you can supply spacebars, only black and white?

We stock those colours.  We can do other colours with a 500pcs MOQ.

[pasph]

So we better build the set around 1 of those 2 colors

[Matias]

So we better build the set around 1 of those 2 colors

Yes, the candidates in the poll are based on those 2 colours -- as stated in the IC post...

One thing of note right at the beginning is that SP does not make a spacebar for Alps in any size.  We are going to have to base the set on at least one existing color so that a spacebar can be sourced from an exiting donor board.  For this reason, we will probably be focusing on 6.25x and 7x sizes as those are the most common. Edit:  We will be going for a black or white base set as Matias has spacebars available in those 2 colors 

[inanis]

I'm digging both of the white based sets. I can't decide which I like more. I like the black too...but man, those whites are so nice and crisp. Really you can't go wrong with any of these choices.

[Badwrench]

This is all wonderful news.  With this new possiblity, lets get a few more votes on the colors to get a difinitve first color choice and go from there.  I will contact SP about getting samples for GON on monday (or I can send the keys from my chicony which has the correct spacing for cherry/costar stabs)

[geniekid]

One of the best things about GON's PCBs is that they support split backspace and split R-shift.  So, I would like to request *HHKB* caps - R1 1x \|, R2 backspace/delete, R3 Control, R4 split shift

[Badwrench]

Ok, here is what I have so far.  If someone could do some renderings of these with Cherry legends, that would be awesome.   


"Delta Blues"

Base kit:


Modifier kit: 


HHKB kit:


ISO: 


Inverted kit:


Tsangan:



If you see anything missing from the kits, please let me know.

Here are the colors together:  BFQ/GD/NN

[CommonCurt]

I would like to get a kit with 4 or five of those GH caps 

[geniekid]

I really like these colors  

As far as I can tell the sets are complete.  It looks like the base set already has a R1 1x \| so I don't know that the HHKB set needs an additional one although some people may appreciate the option of having it in grey.

Also, the UK people might appreciate an R4 \| in black in the ISO kit.

It is my opinion that the inverted kit should feature an inverted Enter key instead of a Backspace, but this is purely personal preference and will not deter me from buying it regardless.

[Badwrench]

I would like to get a kit with 4 or five of those GH caps 

That was the reasoning of adding them among the kits.  Personally liking the R4 one as it can be used in both the HHKB and Pure layouts. 

I really like these colors  

As far as I can tell the sets are complete.  It looks like the base set already has a R1 1x \| so I don't know that the HHKB set needs an additional one although some people may appreciate the option of having it in grey.

Also, the UK people might appreciate an R4 \| in black in the ISO kit.

It is my opinion that the inverted kit should feature an inverted Enter key instead of a Backspace, but this is purely personal preference and will not deter me from buying it regardless.

Thanks for the heads up on the black R4 \|.  I will add that and an inverted Enter.   

[CommonCurt]

I really like these colors  

It is my opinion that the inverted kit should feature an inverted Enter key instead of a Backspace, but this is purely personal preference and will not deter me from buying it regardless.

+1  for the inverted Enter key.

[terrpn]

i would be happy for anything alps at this point

do like the inverted keys on the delta though

[Hak Foo]

No hat key?  Aww...

[Badwrench]

No hat key?  Aww...

Not familiar with that one, can you link a pic?

[Hak Foo]

It's formally "1 x 1.75, .375 step L & R" and looks like the Leading Edge board on the last page.

[Badwrench]

It's formally "1 x 1.75, .375 step L & R" and looks like the Leading Edge board on the last page.

Oh, now I understand.  I will have to check with SP on that one.  Is there a specific legend that it is supposed to have?  Would there be a matching pair for either side of the spacebar?

[Hak Foo]

No, only one if it's row three.   The goal is a caps lock you don't foul when reaching for A, but I'd expect it's even more valuable for people who have Control mapped there.

[EppyKay]

I'm loving the delta blue set. It would look great on my black at101w. I wonder if something other than "win" can be on the super key, though. Perhaps some sort of os neutral logo?

[Nuum]

No love for international kits?

[kitsun8]

Badwrench, see below....


GON is interested in doing a PCB and Plate for ALPS, and is looking for a collaborator to work with SP to get keycaps for it.  You should connect.  It'll help get the numbers up on this IC.

He'll need samples from SP to test with his design. 

If SP or Tai Hao(Tai Hao would be better for pricing) makes ALPS caps /w cross hole stabilizers(CHERRY type), I would design my board for it.
I prefer CHERRY PCB mount Stabilizers. Of course this PCB can fit ALPS original(like costar) stabilizers /w proper plate.

I think it would be great I can colaborated GB with someone who will be in charge of Keycaps from SP, so that I can concentrate on the PCB and the Plate. If we GB in this way, I think we can reduce time dramatically.
As you see in NerD GH60 Housing GB(Later changed into NerD 60 due to delay of GH60 PCB release), NerD 60 Black PCBs GB that I ran, I don't like taking too much delay. I like fast process, only if the fund(payments) is raised fast enough.

The only way I would be interested in this keyset is if that GON PCB group buy runs with the Matias ALPS switches )

[pasph]

Language packs (add-on legends would be pad printed)?
Tsangan?

[Badwrench]

No love for international kits?

If I could get someone to render them, I can add them to the official IC on PMK.

Language packs (add-on legends would be pad printed)?
Tsangan?

Yup, the add-on legends would be pad printed.  Also, thanks for pointing out the Tsangan, I had it made up but forgot to add it in there.  It looks small since some of the caps are already included in the alpha and mods sets. 

[Badwrench]

No, only one if it's row three.   The goal is a caps lock you don't foul when reaching for A, but I'd expect it's even more valuable for people who have Control mapped there.

SP can do a 1.75 cap with Left and Right step ("hat" key).  Would it be better as a Caps key or Control key?  Also what set would it go best in?

[Hak Foo]

Either Tsangan or Mods.  On legends-- Since it can go either way, maybe leave it blank, since it's already a niche of a niche offering.

[Nuum]

I'm working on a mockup for the international kit here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6495b1a1ae2aa0cf5998e30edd60cba8
Currently it includes DE/DK/SE/NO and I'd like to include IT/FR/UK as well, but I currently don't have the time for that. I used 7bit's Round 5 as a reference, the missing kits are these:
I'd be very happy if someone else could include these in the mockup. I'll also post this on deskthority, there is a greater international community, I think.