ANSI Keyboard with US International Layout - OK

[CX23882]

I've avoided buying ANSI layout keyboards because I live in the UK, but now I realise that they're not as limiting as I thought. I'm trying the Dell AT101W as my main keyboard for a while, to see how I get on with it. It takes a bit of getting used to @ and " being swapped over, but I think I'll be okay with that.

My other concern was with regards to typing £ and € but it turns out that if the US International layout (in Vista) is selected, the £ can be typed with AltGr+Shift+4, and € with AltGr+5. All of the accented vowels for Spanish are available with AltGr too as well as ñ.

What do other non-US Geekhackers use? And do you choose a keyboard to suit your preferred layout, or do you choose a keyboard you like and adapt to that layout.

[ch_123]

I've made a similar move as I've found that sticking to UK layout keyboards really limits what I can get. It so happens that I'm selling off my UK layout Unicomp and Dell, and I intend to move to US layout only. The big problem I have with the ANSI layout is the shape of the enter key, but I should be able to adapt to it pretty easily I reckon.

[lal]

lal from Germany here.  I accidentally made my first contact with a mechanical keyboard that came with a dumb serial terminal.  It had black Cherrys and started my interest in quality keyboards.  It had a US layout and while I was learning programming in C at that time I quickly realized the superiority of that layout in regards to all kinds of braces and backslash that are used a lot in all programming languages.

Since then I've been using US layout keyboards exclusively on all my machines.  I'm using "US International" with dead keys to input German umlauts like ä, ö and ü.

[Rajagra]

You could just tell the PC you have a UK keyboard, even if it's really a US one. I think you would just lose the # key, the \ would be above enter.

If you need the # key there are a few ways around the problem. Have several keyboard layouts loaded and switch between them as needed, or use KeyTweak or similar to redefine an unused key as #.

[ch_123]

Actually, you'd lose the |\ key. Which is a bit of a problem if you the Linux terminal alot. (or MS-DOS...)

At any rate, the problem for is not as much the US layout (which is pretty identical to the UK except for a few changes). But moreso the physical layout. But even that can be adapted to

[Rajagra]

Actually, you'd lose the |\ key. Which is a bit of a problem if you the Linux terminal alot. (or MS-DOS...)

Surely that is just moved above the enter key on the US boards? Or does that have a completely different scan code?

Then again, a better idea might be to use a US (International) layout all the time, even with UK boards. You could reprogram the extra key to do something useful.

[ch_123]

Yeah, I'm sure of it. On my Model F the \| key becomes #~. I think the idea is that the button to the right of the ' @ key (or '" if you are in America) which doesnt exist on a US layout board is treated the same as the button above Enter on US keyboards which doesnt exist on ISO boards... because you are never going to have a keyboard that uses both at the same time.

Useless fact: Supposedly, you can activate the 105th button (the one between shift and Z on an ISO layout) on an ANSI Model M by sticking a screwdriver into the hole where the buckling spring should be, and activating the contacts manually.

[IBI]

I haven't tried a US layout keyboard as they tend to be much more expensive after you've added shippings and customs. I have recently bought a keyboard with the large enter/small backspace style and that doesn't bother me at all so I don't think the US enter would be an issue.

The left shift on the other hand looks highly annoying, with the loss of one of the prime gaming keys and the silly design of it (the ISO shift keys are symmetrical about the home row, but the ANSI left shift extends further inwards than the right one) I think I'd have a job adjusting to it.

Given the key layout for the symbols is pretty silly anyway with no consideration of usage frequency a few more arbitary switches wouldn't bother me. I really should move and add some common symbols (such as ° and ²) to my keyboard using autohotkey, but it's not the nicest program to work with.

[CX23882]

Given the key layout for the symbols is pretty silly anyway with no consideration of usage frequency a few more arbitary switches wouldn't bother me. I really should move and add some common symbols (such as ° and ²) to my keyboard using autohotkey, but it's not the nicest program to work with.

If you're running Windows XP or Vista, Microsoft provide a utility to write a customized keyboard layout. You could put your symbols on the number keys in conjunction with AltGr or AltGr+Shift.

But if you're already using AHK, maybe it's not worth it.

For what it's worth, the US International layout is quite rich, and provides for ²³¼½¾×° if you can remember which keys to press in conjunction with AltGr. The UK International layout introduced with XP SP2 on the other hand is useless (and the reason that I created my own layout).

[ch_123]

Doesnt the Windows version of US International have dead keys? I find it really annoying when I have to hit space after Im trying to type a ' or ". Any way to disable them?

(Linux's interpretation doesnt have dead keys, so I dont have that problem there.)

[CX23882]

Yes it does, that is the main annoyance for me. I can understand the need to have them, but I'm only ever writing in English or Spanish, and the AltGr+vowel/n is sufficient for that (with the exception of ü).

For my custom keyboard layout I removed the dead keys, except for when " was used in conjunction with AltGr (i.e. it only behaved as a dead key when used with AltGr, otherwise it worked normally).

I find that the ' dead key is a problem especially when you want to write o'clock because it comes out as oçlock if you forget to press space.

[cchan]

I've been using US International for long enough now that I automatically press space after an apostrophe. I'm so used to it that I do it even if I'm not on a US International layout (school or borrowed computer) which leads to some typos.

[vils]

I currently use keyboards with japanese, US and swedish layout but my computers are set to recognize them as swedish keyboards. I'll just ignore the lettering on the keys.
This is easily done on full-size keyboards but I had some problem with my HHKB so I made me a cheat pic to find those lost characters:


I know I posted this before...

[lowpoly]

I'm using "US International" with dead keys to input German umlauts like ä, ö and ü.

How does that work?

[vils]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layouts#US-International

[lal]

How does that work?

Press double quote and after that press space, a, o or u in order to get ", ä, ö or ü.  If that was the question?  I'm sure you know that, Mr. Keyboard King of Germany

[lowpoly]

LOL, thanks. :smile:

[huha]

I'd like to have a big, L-shaped return key, normal size backspace and big LShift. LShift really sucks on ISO layout keyboards, but I like the L-shaped return key. You'd lose one key, but for everyday typing, this wouldn't bother me. For programming, it's a bit of a hassle though, so I might need to remap some keys.

-huha

[cchan]

I'd like to have a big, L-shaped return key, normal size backspace and big LShift. LShift really sucks on ISO layout keyboards, but I like the L-shaped return key. You'd lose one key, but for everyday typing, this wouldn't bother me. For programming, it's a bit of a hassle though, so I might need to remap some keys.

-huha

Focus FK-2001, or Laser IFS80-2269-1. The backslash is either to the right of RShift, or between RCtrl and RAlt, respectively.

[Xuan]

I'm from Argentina and I prefer US layout, although I need tildes áéíóú and ñ. I've noticed non international layouts are more focused in the language and not in programming which is more important to me, and the US layout has the most comfortable arrange of symbols.
Also I think L shaped keys're a waste of space (my pinky in not that big).

[ch_123]

I'd like to have a big, L-shaped return key, normal size backspace and big LShift. LShift really sucks on ISO layout keyboards, but I like the L-shaped return key. You'd lose one key, but for everyday typing, this wouldn't bother me. For programming, it's a bit of a hassle though, so I might need to remap some keys.

-huha

Funnily enough, the small backspace is nowhere near as big a problem as you'd think. I adjusted to the one on my Model F quite quickly. It's all about training your brain where exactly to hit the button.

[IBI]

LShift really sucks on ISO layout keyboards

I mentioned my like of it above, what makes you dislike it?

Funnily enough, the small backspace is nowhere near as big a problem as you'd think. I adjusted to the one on my Model F quite quickly. It's all about training your brain where exactly to hit the button.

Yeah, for me switching from a normal ISO style keyboard to the big enter and small backspace setup was trivial, I don't think I made a single mistake with the backspace key.

[huha]

I mentioned my like of it above, what makes you dislike it?

I have to move the whole hand to be able to press it. Bigger LShifts wouldn't require that.

I think my ideal keyboard would be a mixture of the japanese and ISO layout, namely:

- Big LShift
- Normal-size (not the supersize variant on ANSI boards) L-Shaped Return key
- Normal Backspace
- Normal-sized spacebar
- 105th key like on japanese layouts, i.e. making RShift one key smaller and putting a key there.

Why?
- No need to move the left hand when pressing LShift
- I'm accustomed to it, as I press it roughly between the rows. I'm having great problems to adapt to ANSI-style return keys (like on my Eee, for example)
- Backspace should stay normal. No need to move keys around with the ISO return key, anyway.
- I don't need east-asian modifier keys, so the spacebar may remain large.
- The 105th key is nice to have (it's <, >, | on German layout boards, for example), but as it's not required all the time, sticking it to a somewhat obscure location doesn't matter when it's still reachable for the occasional XML editing sessions.


-huha

[ch_123]

I got my Filco today, and found the ANSI enter was nowhere as bad as I thought. Seems like I can swap between any of the three effortlessly, although I guess the ANSI ones are the best because they are along the home row and don't require as much hand movement.

[itlnstln]

I don't think I could really get used to ISO Enter keys.  They seem kinda out of the way.  I don't mind L-shaped Enter keys, though.

[CX23882]

Everyone probably has their own preferences, but here is the layout that I use with my US/ANSI keyboard.

It's based on the US International layout but with the following changes:

• No dead keys for ' " ` ´ ~

If you want these keys to behave like a dead key, use AltGr and the appropriate key.

• £ moved to AltGr+4
• ± added to AltGr+Shift+minus
• ° added to AltGr+ .

Everything else is as per the International layout which means:

• áéíóúü can be typed with AltGr + aeiouy respectively (and their shifted versions)
• ²³ on AltGr + 2 3
• ¼½¾ on AltGr + 6 7 8
• µ on AltGr + m
• ¡ and ¿ on AltGr + 1 and /

As I say, this layout is based on my own preferences, so yours may be different, but I'm open to any suggestions for more optimal locations of special symbols.

[IBI]

I have to move the whole hand to be able to press it. Bigger LShifts wouldn't require that.

- 105th key like on japanese layouts, i.e. making RShift one key smaller and putting a key there.

Do you type one key over from most people then? The ISO left shift is the same distance away that the right shift is, so you shouldn't have any trouble reaching it from the normal home position unless your left hand is smaller or has less reach.

Sorry about the crude diagrams, but hopefully this should show what I mean.

The right way:


The slightly lopsided way:


The "What on earth are they thinking" way:


The only reason the right shift is a longer key is because the right side of the keyboard extends one to two keys further past the home row. Even the US style enter is four keys away from J compared to the three keys seperating F and caps lock.

[ch_123]

Everyone probably has their own preferences, but here is the layout that I use with my US/ANSI keyboard.

...

As I say, this layout is based on my own preferences, so yours may be different, but I'm open to any suggestions for more optimal locations of special symbols.

Thanks for this!

[Hak Foo]

What I'd like to see is the US layout, but with an AltGr-style key and some sensible key combinations for accented characters. (i. e. AltGr-N to get a n with a tilde, shifted for the capital one)

Ideally, these would be labelled on the front of the keycap itself.

[ch_123]

What I'd like to see is the US layout, but with an AltGr-style key and some sensible key combinations for accented characters. (i. e. AltGr-N to get a n with a tilde, shifted for the capital one)

That's US International... Try out the variant linked above which gets rid of those dead keys.

[huha]

Do you type one key over from most people then? The ISO left shift is the same distance away that the right shift is, so you shouldn't have any trouble reaching it from the normal home position unless your left hand is smaller or has less reach.

As I said, my hands are a bit smallish, so reaching for shift is somewhat of a pain. The right hand is a totally lost cause, too many keys to press there, so it will inevitably move around a lot; I wouldn't mind RShift being smaller, if LShift could increase in size; I'd also happily reassign the "<" key to the key next to the shortened RShift.

That said, what length are LShift and RShift in multiples of standard keys? Maybe one can find a spare key to replace RShift with, allowing for another key to take its place.

-huha

[Rajagra]

Everyone probably has their own preferences, but here is the layout that I use with my US/ANSI keyboard.

It's based on the US International layout but with the following changes:

• No dead keys for ' " ` ´ ~

If you want these keys to behave like a dead key, use AltGr and the appropriate key.

• £ moved to AltGr+4
• ± added to AltGr+Shift+minus
• ° added to AltGr+ .

Everything else is as per the International layout which means:

• áéíóúü can be typed with AltGr + aeiouy respectively (and their shifted versions)
• ²³ on AltGr + 2 3
• ¼½¾ on AltGr + 6 7 8
• µ on AltGr + m
• ¡ and ¿ on AltGr + 1 and /

As I say, this layout is based on my own preferences, so yours may be different, but I'm open to any suggestions for more optimal locations of special symbols.

Thanks for that.

Any reason why ^ still acts as a dead key?

Also it might be worth swapping the ¡ and ¹ keys, would be much more logical IMO.

[dacm]

The only reason the right shift is a longer key is because the right side of the keyboard extends one to two keys further past the home row. Even the US style enter is four keys away from J compared to the three keys seperating F and caps lock.

This is really interesting. When you think about it, surely L-Shift should be bigger, R-Shift smaller and the home position (along with the alphabet keys) moved to the right by one key? I think that would be a more balanced layout. Aren't all the symbol keys in the way bunched up on the right like that.

Plus such a layout would reduce (a little) hand travel between home position and mouse. ;-)

/me gets more ideas for his Model M layout mod idea...