Looking for New Keyboard - Need Help

[Gunni]

Hello Everyone!

So you might have seen my other thread, I had some inquiries about the QuickFire TK. Well now I've learned that some of the keycaps for this board are somewhat difficult to get, especially the spacebar. So I was thinking of possibly just getting a new board all together. Obviously I'll still keep the TK and I could possibly customise it in the future, but I think I'll just get a new board along with custom keycaps for the new board. So, I have no idea what to get. I've heard Filco and Ducky mentioned a lot, but I wouldn't no which model to get. I use my keyboard for typing and gaming. My TK has brown switches, so I'm actually unsure if I would want to try out something else or stick with Brown. I like the feel of Browns, but I've never actually tried another keyboard. Possibly blues? (Although I've heard they're not great for gaming). I've never really liked the idea of having reds or blacks for some reason.

But yeah, suggestions are appreciated!

Thanks,
Gunni

[dorkvader]

You can get a switch tester. If you say what you like or don't like about browns, we can maybe make some recommendations. For example, clears are heavier to press than browns and also more tactile.

Filcos are recommended. They usually only differ on switch type. There's also options for TKL or not, and front printed keycaps or not. Other options people seem to enjoy are KUL, leopold (though you may want to avoid, they have different keycaps than most) and the CMstorm QFR (which is like a cheaper filco.)

Ducky has a lot of options and special editions so it's hard to know where to start with that.

personally, I would recommend DIY. But I'm biased because I really like DIY.

[Gunni]

You can get a switch tester. If you say what you like or don't like about browns, we can maybe make some recommendations. For example, clears are heavier to press than browns and also more tactile.

Filcos are recommended. They usually only differ on switch type. There's also options for TKL or not, and front printed keycaps or not. Other options people seem to enjoy are KUL, leopold (though you may want to avoid, they have different keycaps than most) and the CMstorm QFR (which is like a cheaper filco.)

Ducky has a lot of options and special editions so it's hard to know where to start with that.

personally, I would recommend DIY. But I'm biased because I really like DIY.

Hmm yeah I guess I could get a switch tester. Hmm, it's hard to say what I don't like about browns. This is the first mechanical keyboard I've owned, so I'm just in love it with so much that I don't really hate anything. I'm only really comparing it to rubber dome/membrane keyboards when I say this, but obviously I love the feel of it. I guess I like the fact that it's tactile. I don't feel the need to have a numpad.

Haha, I don't think I'm going to go DIY just yet, but it does look interesting.

Thanks

Yeah I'm thinking Filco is probably the way to go.

[dorkvader]

My first cherry was MX browns as well. I liked it well enough. I remember it was hard to really know what about it until I could try more.

You could try reds (what I got next, but that was partially because they were only available in Asia at the time and I wanted to be in the super exclusive club) for the linear feel. Once you get used to not bottoming them out, they can be quite nice. Or clears if you want something heavy and more tactile. Or blues/greens if you want to get LOUD and clicky!

The world of keyboards your oyster and there are no wrong choices. If you don't like something, you can usually resell it and get most of your money back.

[Gunni]

My first cherry was MX browns as well. I liked it well enough. I remember it was hard to really know what about it until I could try more.

You could try reds (what I got next, but that was partially because they were only available in Asia at the time and I wanted to be in the super exclusive club) for the linear feel. Once you get used to not bottoming them out, they can be quite nice. Or clears if you want something heavy and more tactile. Or blues/greens if you want to get LOUD and clicky!

The world of keyboards your oyster and there are no wrong choices. If you don't like something, you can usually resell it and get most of your money back.

Yeah for some reason I don't want to go for reds or blacks, but I have no idea why!

Never actually heard too much about clears before, so are they most similar to browns but just more heavy and tactile? Sounds interesting.

That's good to know, I'm really loving learning about keyboards. It's good that you can resell and make most of your money back, just in-case I don't like what I end up buying

[dorkvader]

yeah: they hold their value well, so trying something new is very low-risk. Since they are also repairable, even broken ones have value.

clears have a larger and more pronounced tactile bump. They also have much stronger springs so they take more force to press. Some people really like them because they prevent you from bottoming out (they take a LOT of force to bottom out), some people they are too heavy. I put lighter 62g springs into my clears to make "ergo clears", which are very very tactile.

I'm not too worried about what keyboard I have, since I rotate mine around so much: they are all pretty similar to me. hopefully another GH'er will post with some advice about which keyboard to get. I tend to focus on which ones are the most "interestingly designed" or easiest to mod and hack on, since I will usually be doing that.

[rowdy]

PCCG (in Australia) has a reasonable range and fair prices.

Something Ducky might suit you, Ducky Zero if you don't want backlighting.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_1361&zenid=2baba418eaa33e76f2c57b3738c3a353

Or have a look through what MechKB have got: http://www.mechkb.com/

[Gunni]

yeah: they hold their value well, so trying something new is very low-risk. Since they are also repairable, even broken ones have value.

clears have a larger and more pronounced tactile bump. They also have much stronger springs so they take more force to press. Some people really like them because they prevent you from bottoming out (they take a LOT of force to bottom out), some people they are too heavy. I put lighter 62g springs into my clears to make "ergo clears", which are very very tactile.

I'm not too worried about what keyboard I have, since I rotate mine around so much: they are all pretty similar to me. hopefully another GH'er will post with some advice about which keyboard to get. I tend to focus on which ones are the most "interestingly designed" or easiest to mod and hack on, since I will usually be doing that.

Hmm, part of me wants to go with something that I know I love (browns) and part of me wants to try something new (clears or blues). That said, I think the click of the blues might be a little too loud if I'm speaking to friends on Skype or Teamspeak, so I'm not sure. I was going to go with Filco, but I wanted to buy from a store locally for convenience, and it seems none of the stores close to me sell Filco boards. This is one of the places I wanted to buy from: http://www.pccasegear.com/, they have a decent range but no Filco. They do have some Ducky's though, is there something there that you recommend?

Thanks

EDIT:

PCCG (in Australia) has a reasonable range and fair prices.

Something Ducky might suit you, Ducky Zero if you don't want backlighting.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_1361&zenid=2baba418eaa33e76f2c57b3738c3a353

Or have a look through what MechKB have got: http://www.mechkb.com/

Haha, you replied while I was writing my response. I think I would prefer backlighting, not sure if it's seen as "tacky" or not, but sometimes I'm on the computer late at night with the lights off and I prefer to be able to see my keyboard. So I think I'd like a backlight and for it to be TKL, what should I go with do you think?

[rowdy]

yeah: they hold their value well, so trying something new is very low-risk. Since they are also repairable, even broken ones have value.

clears have a larger and more pronounced tactile bump. They also have much stronger springs so they take more force to press. Some people really like them because they prevent you from bottoming out (they take a LOT of force to bottom out), some people they are too heavy. I put lighter 62g springs into my clears to make "ergo clears", which are very very tactile.

I'm not too worried about what keyboard I have, since I rotate mine around so much: they are all pretty similar to me. hopefully another GH'er will post with some advice about which keyboard to get. I tend to focus on which ones are the most "interestingly designed" or easiest to mod and hack on, since I will usually be doing that.

Hmm, part of me wants to go with something that I know I love (browns) and part of me wants to try something new (clears or blues). That said, I think the click of the blues might be a little too loud if I'm speaking to friends on Skype or Teamspeak, so I'm not sure. I was going to go with Filco, but I wanted to buy from a store locally for convenience, and it seems none of the stores close to me sell Filco boards. This is one of the places I wanted to buy from: http://www.pccasegear.com/, they have a decent range but no Filco. They do have some Ducky's though, is there something there that you recommend?

Thanks

EDIT:

PCCG (in Australia) has a reasonable range and fair prices.

Something Ducky might suit you, Ducky Zero if you don't want backlighting.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_1361&zenid=2baba418eaa33e76f2c57b3738c3a353

Or have a look through what MechKB have got: http://www.mechkb.com/

Haha, you replied while I was writing my response. I think I would prefer backlighting, not sure if it's seen as "tacky" or not, but sometimes I'm on the computer late at night with the lights off and I prefer to be able to see my keyboard. So I think I'd like a backlight and for it to be TKL, what should I go with do you think?

Ducky would be a good choice.  I have not seen QFR-I in Australia yet.

[Gunni]

yeah: they hold their value well, so trying something new is very low-risk. Since they are also repairable, even broken ones have value.

clears have a larger and more pronounced tactile bump. They also have much stronger springs so they take more force to press. Some people really like them because they prevent you from bottoming out (they take a LOT of force to bottom out), some people they are too heavy. I put lighter 62g springs into my clears to make "ergo clears", which are very very tactile.

I'm not too worried about what keyboard I have, since I rotate mine around so much: they are all pretty similar to me. hopefully another GH'er will post with some advice about which keyboard to get. I tend to focus on which ones are the most "interestingly designed" or easiest to mod and hack on, since I will usually be doing that.

Hmm, part of me wants to go with something that I know I love (browns) and part of me wants to try something new (clears or blues). That said, I think the click of the blues might be a little too loud if I'm speaking to friends on Skype or Teamspeak, so I'm not sure. I was going to go with Filco, but I wanted to buy from a store locally for convenience, and it seems none of the stores close to me sell Filco boards. This is one of the places I wanted to buy from: http://www.pccasegear.com/, they have a decent range but no Filco. They do have some Ducky's though, is there something there that you recommend?

Thanks

EDIT:

PCCG (in Australia) has a reasonable range and fair prices.

Something Ducky might suit you, Ducky Zero if you don't want backlighting.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_1361&zenid=2baba418eaa33e76f2c57b3738c3a353

Or have a look through what MechKB have got: http://www.mechkb.com/

Haha, you replied while I was writing my response. I think I would prefer backlighting, not sure if it's seen as "tacky" or not, but sometimes I'm on the computer late at night with the lights off and I prefer to be able to see my keyboard. So I think I'd like a backlight and for it to be TKL, what should I go with do you think?

Ducky would be a good choice.  I have not seen QFR-I in Australia yet.

Okay thanks!

[Gunni]

Okay so if I get this new board (or even with my current board), I was thinking of getting some cream and brown coloured keycaps. Similar to this I guess: http://www.keypop.net/product/pre-order-coffee-set. Although this is sold out, and I'd prefer not to have the coffee theme with the F1, F2, etc keys. Where would you recommend to buy sets in the colours I want? I had a look around but couldn't find anything.

Thanks

Noticed that they actually do have a coffee base set available. They're ABS though, rather than PBT. Is this a big deal? While reading these forums I've come to the conclusion that PBT is better, or is it just personal preference?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I get everything right 

[Hordak]

Well, if you're a true geekhacker, than you will get all this stuff eventually anyway, so why wait?

On the other hand, get the PBTs if you don't like the feel of ABS, that was my motivation. I hate it when caps get sticky and soaked full of oil or whatever. PBT caps are more durable and generally have a nice texture. But if you don't mind, as many people don't, than just get yourself some fancy doubleshots sets.

You didn't mention a budget, but considering that you live so close to Japan, have you considered a Topre board? Either way, I would go as different to your browns as possible. That way, I think you would learn more about your switch preferences. I went from brown to reds, and while I learned that I have no love for the Cherry tactile switches, I wish I'd gone with blacks because that would've taught me more about actuation force.

[Hypersphere]

After happily using a full-size IBM Model M for years, I got interested in smaller keyboards and decided to sample contemporary TKL keyboards. I started with a Filco Majestouch TKL Ninja with Cherry mx blues. It was okay, but it sounded and felt like a toy in comparison to the IBM. Next, I tried a CM QFR Stealth with Cherry mx greens. I liked the heavier switches, but I was still not satisfied. I also tried a Ducky Shine II with Cherry mx browns, and more recently, I tried a Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx clears. I liked the quality of the Kul, but I preferred the lighter switches in the Ducky. Along the way, I tried a Wyse terminal board with vintage mx blacks; I found this slightly too heavy, and I missed having some tactile feedback. I have not yet tried Cherry mx reds, but I suspect I would find them too light, and being linear like blacks they would lack tactile feedback.

I've tried various vintage terminal boards with different versions of linear switches and didn't like any of them.

When I tried boards with variants of Alps switches, I found that I liked these better than any Cherry switch. One of my favorites in this group was Matias tactile/clicky switches, as found in the Matias Mini Tactile Pro. I also liked NMB Hi-Tek tactile or clicky "Space Invader" switches, but I don't think any contemporary boards use these.

Finally, I tried Topre. I was blown away by how different these were from other switches I had tried, and I was very favorably impressed with the quality of tactile feedback. Topre-switch boards are expensive, and the best of these are very expensive. I've tried the CM Novatouch, Leopold FC660C, HHKB Pro 2, Realforce 87ub 45g, and Realforce 87ub 55g. Of these, the HHKB Pro 2 is my favorite for its 60% form factor and layout, and the RF 87ub 55g is my favorite for overall quality, sound, and feel.

Back to the vintage category, after trying IBM Model F boards such as the XT, I prefer these capacitive buckling spring switches over the membrane buckling springs found in Model M boards.

After all this, I have sold most of my Cherry mx boards, and I have narrowed my keyboard rotation to an IBM Model F XT, IBM Model M SSK, HHKB Pro 2, and RF 87ub 55g.

If I were to limit myself to Cherry mx keyboards that are currently available, I would probably go for a Kul ES-87 with browns.

[rowdy]

Okay so if I get this new board (or even with my current board), I was thinking of getting some cream and brown coloured keycaps. Similar to this I guess: http://www.keypop.net/product/pre-order-coffee-set. Although this is sold out, and I'd prefer not to have the coffee theme with the F1, F2, etc keys. Where would you recommend to buy sets in the colours I want? I had a look around but couldn't find anything.

Thanks

Noticed that they actually do have a coffee base set available. They're ABS though, rather than PBT. Is this a big deal? While reading these forums I've come to the conclusion that PBT is better, or is it just personal preference?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I get everything right 

Some like ABS, some like PBT.  ABS does tend to shine much quicker than PBT, although many of us have dozens of keycap sets and swap them around regularly, partly for aesthetics and partly to reduce the shine that just using one set would result in.

There's not many custom colours available in PBT - it is a plastic that is more difficult to work with and generally more expensive, so there are fewer choices.

[Gunni]

Well, if you're a true geekhacker, than you will get all this stuff eventually anyway, so why wait?

On the other hand, get the PBTs if you don't like the feel of ABS, that was my motivation. I hate it when caps get sticky and soaked full of oil or whatever. PBT caps are more durable and generally have a nice texture. But if you don't mind, as many people don't, than just get yourself some fancy doubleshots sets.

You didn't mention a budget, but considering that you live so close to Japan, have you considered a Topre board? Either way, I would go as different to your browns as possible. That way, I think you would learn more about your switch preferences. I went from brown to reds, and while I learned that I have no love for the Cherry tactile switches, I wish I'd gone with blacks because that would've taught me more about actuation force.

Judging from what you've said I'd probably want to get PBT, but also am after a particular colour scheme.

Hmm okay. Topre? Never really heard too much about them, I've mainly stuck to researching Cherry. Budget for the board itself was going to be under $200, closer to $100. Is there different variations of Topre switches, or is there just one main kind? I was thinking of going with blues this time if I went with Cherry, just to change it up. Again, for some reason I'm put off by no tactility, not sure why.

Thanks

After happily using a full-size IBM Model M for years, I got interested in smaller keyboards and decided to sample contemporary TKL keyboards. I started with a Filco Majestouch TKL Ninja with Cherry mx blues. It was okay, but it sounded and felt like a toy in comparison to the IBM. Next, I tried a CM QFR Stealth with Cherry mx greens. I liked the heavier switches, but I was still not satisfied. I also tried a Ducky Shine II with Cherry mx browns, and more recently, I tried a Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx clears. I liked the quality of the Kul, but I preferred the lighter switches in the Ducky. Along the way, I tried a Wyse terminal board with vintage mx blacks; I found this slightly too heavy, and I missed having some tactile feedback. I have not yet tried Cherry mx reds, but I suspect I would find them too light, and being linear like blacks they would lack tactile feedback.

I've tried various vintage terminal boards with different versions of linear switches and didn't like any of them.

When I tried boards with variants of Alps switches, I found that I liked these better than any Cherry switch. One of my favorites in this group was Matias tactile/clicky switches, as found in the Matias Mini Tactile Pro. I also liked NMB Hi-Tek tactile or clicky "Space Invader" switches, but I don't think any contemporary boards use these.

Finally, I tried Topre. I was blown away by how different these were from other switches I had tried, and I was very favorably impressed with the quality of tactile feedback. Topre-switch boards are expensive, and the best of these are very expensive. I've tried the CM Novatouch, Leopold FC660C, HHKB Pro 2, Realforce 87ub 45g, and Realforce 87ub 55g. Of these, the HHKB Pro 2 is my favorite for its 60% form factor and layout, and the RF 87ub 55g is my favorite for overall quality, sound, and feel.

Back to the vintage category, after trying IBM Model F boards such as the XT, I prefer these capacitive buckling spring switches over the membrane buckling springs found in Model M boards.

After all this, I have sold most of my Cherry mx boards, and I have narrowed my keyboard rotation to an IBM Model F XT, IBM Model M SSK, HHKB Pro 2, and RF 87ub 55g.

If I were to limit myself to Cherry mx keyboards that are currently available, I would probably go for a Kul ES-87 with browns.

Wow thanks for all the information in this post.

I searched up I just searched up the HHKB Pro 2 and saw it's around $260? That's...a lot more than I wanted to spend, but it is a possibility. I'll also research the Kul ES-87 a little bit and see how that looks, considering it's your favourite Cherry board.

Okay so if I get this new board (or even with my current board), I was thinking of getting some cream and brown coloured keycaps. Similar to this I guess: http://www.keypop.net/product/pre-order-coffee-set. Although this is sold out, and I'd prefer not to have the coffee theme with the F1, F2, etc keys. Where would you recommend to buy sets in the colours I want? I had a look around but couldn't find anything.

Thanks

Noticed that they actually do have a coffee base set available. They're ABS though, rather than PBT. Is this a big deal? While reading these forums I've come to the conclusion that PBT is better, or is it just personal preference?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I get everything right 

Some like ABS, some like PBT.  ABS does tend to shine much quicker than PBT, although many of us have dozens of keycap sets and swap them around regularly, partly for aesthetics and partly to reduce the shine that just using one set would result in.

There's not many custom colours available in PBT - it is a plastic that is more difficult to work with and generally more expensive, so there are fewer choices.

Hmm okay. Well I guess I have to weigh up if I want the colours I want more than PBT.

Thanks!

[Hordak]

There is just one type of Topre with different weight options available. Afaik these are variable, 45g and  55g. Though the HHKB 45g is supposed to feel stiffer than a Realforce 45g. Topre is a tactile switch like Cherry brown, blue etc. but the actuation point lies closer to top and the bottoming out is softer (not mushy) with a deeper "thock" sound. If you go with Cherry, I recommend you get a key sampler first, if you can wait 

[Gunni]

There is just one type of Topre with different weight options available. Afaik these are variable, 45g and  55g. Though the HHKB 45g is supposed to feel stiffer than a Realforce 45g. Topre is a tactile switch like Cherry brown, blue etc. but the actuation point lies closer to top and the bottoming out is softer (not mushy) with a deeper "thock" sound. If you go with Cherry, I recommend you get a key sampler first, if you can wait 

Hmm, now I'm tempted to go with Topre, even though they are pretty expensive. Is there a cheaper board with Topre switches that I could get possibly?

[Oobly]

If you want to replace the keycaps, don't get Topre. There are VERY few keycap options for these. Also, the boards are expensive and the switches are not modifiable, so if you don't like how they feel you're stuck.

I would recommend a KUL ES-87 with Clears for these reasons:

1. Clears are like "better" Browns. If you like Browns, you'll probably love Clears. They have more tactility and the springs are more progressive, so they start off similar strength, but increase more before bottom out. Great for typing or gaming. Can be modded to lighter, ErgoClears later if you want to try those.
2. The KUL is a great quality board (comparable to, if not better than Filco).
3. It has standard layout so you can fit any aftermarket keycap set you like.
4. Some nice DIP switch options for switching keys, etc.

In terms of keycaps, take a browse through the Group Buys and Classifieds section of the site to find some options. Also, Matt3o's Keypuller keycap sets archive is getting more complete as he continues to add sets to it. You can see some more options there: http://keypuller.com/archive/

<EDIT> If you like brown keycaps, I believe Matt3o will most likely be running a Group Buy soon for the Retro set in full contoured SA profile. Very old-skool, thick high quality caps. You can see the DSA version on his Keypuller archive.

Also, about keycap material, for me it's more about the keycap weight and surface quality than the material, althought the material can make a difference. For instance the high quality, thick doubleshot ABS caps made by GMK are highly regarded and rightly so, they feel fantastic. My personal favourite in terms of feel is thick POM (then PBT, then ABS), but I'd rather use GMK caps or doubleshot SA profile since the legends on POM caps are usually lasered so they are raised. At least until I get used to using blanks, then thick Cherry profile POM blanks will take over. But GMK and SA profile caps look so awesome, too... Sigh. At least I have options
</EDIT>

[user 18]

Yeah for some reason I don't want to go for reds or blacks, but I have no idea why!

Because linear switches are gross

Noticed that they actually do have a coffee base set available. They're ABS though, rather than PBT. Is this a big deal? While reading these forums I've come to the conclusion that PBT is better, or is it just personal preference?

It's entirely personal preference. The caps on your Quickfire are ABS, as are the keys on most keyboards made today. If you've been happy with ABS caps up until this point, I don't really see a reason to go for anything else. But again, that's my personal preference.

If you want to replace the keycaps, don't get Topre. There are VERY few keycap options for these. Also, the boards are expensive and the switches are not modifiable, so if you don't like how they feel you're stuck.

I would recommend a KUL ES-87 with Clears for these reasons:

1. Clears are like "better" Browns. If you like Browns, you'll probably love Clears. They have more tactility and the springs are more progressive, so they start off similar strength, but increase more before bottom out. Great for typing or gaming. Can be modded to lighter, ErgoClears later if you want to try those.
2. The KUL is a great quality board (comparable to, if not better than Filco).
3. It has standard layout so you can fit any aftermarket keycap set you like.
4. Some nice DIP switch options for switching keys, etc.

That's a pretty good summary of why people here have been happy with the KUL boards.

MX Clears are basically heavier, more tactile browns. They do feel significantly different, but I personally think they feel better. Again, if you can afford to get a switch tester, that's probably the best.

A note about switch testers though: it does feel somewhat different using an entire keyboard than a single switch. I didn't think I would like my MX Clears when I first swapped a couple of switches on my QFR. I took the plunge anyway and switched the whole board over, and within a week it was far and away my favourite board (with my old browns sitting unused).

[frosty]

For filco, the model doesn't really matter. All filcos have a solid build.

For ducky, I'd recommend the models with thick pbt caps. They are solid. Think they are called ducky premiers if I am not wrong.

Or look into the 60% world! A poker 2 is a really popular choice here!

Also like what the others have said, what switch do you like the most? ditto dorkvader, get a switch tester! You'll know which you like the best. Get the testers with blues/browns/blacks/reds/clears/greens. You could also find out if you like super blacks (clear springs black or red stem) or ergo clears (red or brown string clear stem) by swapping springs and stems!

Goodluck!

[user 18]

For filco, the model doesn't really matter. All filcos have a solid build.

For ducky, I'd recommend the models with thick pbt caps. They are solid. Think they are called ducky premiers if I am not wrong.

Or look into the 60% world! A poker 2 is a really popular choice here!

Also like what the others have said, what switch do you like the most? ditto dorkvader, get a switch tester! You'll know which you like the best. Get the testers with blues/browns/blacks/reds/clears/greens. You could also find out if you like super blacks (clear springs black or red stem) or ergo clears (red or brown string clear stem) by swapping springs and stems!

Goodluck!

Super blacks usually have springs significantly heavier than the spring from a clear switch.

[frosty]

For filco, the model doesn't really matter. All filcos have a solid build.

For ducky, I'd recommend the models with thick pbt caps. They are solid. Think they are called ducky premiers if I am not wrong.

Or look into the 60% world! A poker 2 is a really popular choice here!

Also like what the others have said, what switch do you like the most? ditto dorkvader, get a switch tester! You'll know which you like the best. Get the testers with blues/browns/blacks/reds/clears/greens. You could also find out if you like super blacks (clear springs black or red stem) or ergo clears (red or brown string clear stem) by swapping springs and stems!

Goodluck!

Super blacks usually have springs significantly heavier than the spring from a clear switch.

My bad, I remembered it as clear springs. It's the green spring with a linear stem correct?

[user 18]

For filco, the model doesn't really matter. All filcos have a solid build.

For ducky, I'd recommend the models with thick pbt caps. They are solid. Think they are called ducky premiers if I am not wrong.

Or look into the 60% world! A poker 2 is a really popular choice here!

Also like what the others have said, what switch do you like the most? ditto dorkvader, get a switch tester! You'll know which you like the best. Get the testers with blues/browns/blacks/reds/clears/greens. You could also find out if you like super blacks (clear springs black or red stem) or ergo clears (red or brown string clear stem) by swapping springs and stems!

Goodluck!

Super blacks usually have springs significantly heavier than the spring from a clear switch.

My bad, I remembered it as clear springs. It's the green spring with a linear stem correct?

Greens, Blacks and Clears all have similar springs. Clears are slightly heavier than blacks/greens, but a super black is heavier still.

Heavier than greens, blacks and clears, we have grey switches, in clicky, linear and tactile flavours. Linear greys have a nominal actuation force of around 80cN. Super blacks are twice as heavy as these linear greys, and it's speculated that they were originally meant to discourage accidental keypresses.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Super_Black

[Oobly]

For filco, the model doesn't really matter. All filcos have a solid build.

For ducky, I'd recommend the models with thick pbt caps. They are solid. Think they are called ducky premiers if I am not wrong.

Or look into the 60% world! A poker 2 is a really popular choice here!

Also like what the others have said, what switch do you like the most? ditto dorkvader, get a switch tester! You'll know which you like the best. Get the testers with blues/browns/blacks/reds/clears/greens. You could also find out if you like super blacks (clear springs black or red stem) or ergo clears (red or brown string clear stem) by swapping springs and stems!

Goodluck!

Super blacks usually have springs significantly heavier than the spring from a clear switch.

My bad, I remembered it as clear springs. It's the green spring with a linear stem correct?

Super Blacks have REALLY strong springs in. Greens have the same spring as Blacks. Clear spring in Black switch is a Ghost Black, my favourite linear switch, although I still prefer tactile switches with 62g ErgoClear being my favourite

The standard Cherry springs are:

Reds, Browns, Blues = light springs (around 50g to actuation, 60g to bottom out)
Blacks, Greens, Whites = heavy springs (around 65g to actuation, 80g to bottom out)
Clears = progressive springs (around 65g to actuation, lighter start, heavier finish, 85-90g to bottom out)
Light Greys, Dark Greys = extra heavy springs (around 80g to actuation, not sure of bottom out value)
Super Blacks = super heavy springs (around 150g to actuation, not sure of bottom out value)

Most Korean springs are measured to bottom out, not actuation like the Cherry springs, so a 62g Korean spring is similar to a light Cherry spring, but just a little stronger. 67g Korean spring is about midway between Cherry light and heavy.

[Gunni]

Thanks for all the info guys

If you want to replace the keycaps, don't get Topre. There are VERY few keycap options for these. Also, the boards are expensive and the switches are not modifiable, so if you don't like how they feel you're stuck.

I would recommend a KUL ES-87 with Clears for these reasons:

1. Clears are like "better" Browns. If you like Browns, you'll probably love Clears. They have more tactility and the springs are more progressive, so they start off similar strength, but increase more before bottom out. Great for typing or gaming. Can be modded to lighter, ErgoClears later if you want to try those.
2. The KUL is a great quality board (comparable to, if not better than Filco).
3. It has standard layout so you can fit any aftermarket keycap set you like.
4. Some nice DIP switch options for switching keys, etc.

In terms of keycaps, take a browse through the Group Buys and Classifieds section of the site to find some options. Also, Matt3o's Keypuller keycap sets archive is getting more complete as he continues to add sets to it. You can see some more options there: http://keypuller.com/archive/

<EDIT> If you like brown keycaps, I believe Matt3o will most likely be running a Group Buy soon for the Retro set in full contoured SA profile. Very old-skool, thick high quality caps. You can see the DSA version on his Keypuller archive.

Also, about keycap material, for me it's more about the keycap weight and surface quality than the material, althought the material can make a difference. For instance the high quality, thick doubleshot ABS caps made by GMK are highly regarded and rightly so, they feel fantastic. My personal favourite in terms of feel is thick POM (then PBT, then ABS), but I'd rather use GMK caps or doubleshot SA profile since the legends on POM caps are usually lasered so they are raised. At least until I get used to using blanks, then thick Cherry profile POM blanks will take over. But GMK and SA profile caps look so awesome, too... Sigh. At least I have options
</EDIT>

Very useful thanks. Yeah I think the KUL ES-87 seems like a pretty good idea. I was leaning towards clears, and other people have recommended this board to me. Do you know the best place to buy it from (they need to ship to Australia)?

[Oobly]

I think these guys ship internationally: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=917

I know EliteKeyboards only ship to US and EU.

[rowdy]

There is just one type of Topre with different weight options available. Afaik these are variable, 45g and  55g. Though the HHKB 45g is supposed to feel stiffer than a Realforce 45g. Topre is a tactile switch like Cherry brown, blue etc. but the actuation point lies closer to top and the bottoming out is softer (not mushy) with a deeper "thock" sound. If you go with Cherry, I recommend you get a key sampler first, if you can wait 

Hmm, now I'm tempted to go with Topre, even though they are pretty expensive. Is there a cheaper board with Topre switches that I could get possibly?

Scorptech has CM Novatouch - Topre switches and MX-compatible stems.

I'd paste the link but their site is playing up at the moment.  Around $219 I think.

[notsonerd]

Scorptech has CM Novatouch - Topre switches and MX-compatible stems.

I'd paste the link but their site is playing up at the moment.  Around $219 I think.

I was just about to mention this. If you're interested in Topre and don't want to be limited to just Topre-compatible keycaps, the Novatouch would be the way to go.

Regarding keyswitch samplers, I feel like these things are a hit or miss. I got one a few weeks before I ordered my first board; I was able to narrow down my choices significantly, but the sampler doesn't justify the actual feel of the switch. If you do decide to get one, though, try to get one with all standard Cherry MX switches. They make great desk toys either way.

[Hordak]

From what I've heard, the Novatouch is, switch wise, the worst of the Topre boards, comes with cheapo ABS caps and is overpriced. For a little more you could get a Leopold FC660C; or for a little less a Type Heaven 104.

[Gunni]

I think these guys ship internationally: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=917

I know EliteKeyboards only ship to US and EU.

Okay thanks!

There is just one type of Topre with different weight options available. Afaik these are variable, 45g and  55g. Though the HHKB 45g is supposed to feel stiffer than a Realforce 45g. Topre is a tactile switch like Cherry brown, blue etc. but the actuation point lies closer to top and the bottoming out is softer (not mushy) with a deeper "thock" sound. If you go with Cherry, I recommend you get a key sampler first, if you can wait 

Hmm, now I'm tempted to go with Topre, even though they are pretty expensive. Is there a cheaper board with Topre switches that I could get possibly?

Scorptech has CM Novatouch - Topre switches and MX-compatible stems.

I'd paste the link but their site is playing up at the moment.  Around $219 I think.

Scorptech has CM Novatouch - Topre switches and MX-compatible stems.

I'd paste the link but their site is playing up at the moment.  Around $219 I think.

I was just about to mention this. If you're interested in Topre and don't want to be limited to just Topre-compatible keycaps, the Novatouch would be the way to go.

Regarding keyswitch samplers, I feel like these things are a hit or miss. I got one a few weeks before I ordered my first board; I was able to narrow down my choices significantly, but the sampler doesn't justify the actual feel of the switch. If you do decide to get one, though, try to get one with all standard Cherry MX switches. They make great desk toys either way.

Hmm, I guess I could look into getting a CM Novatouch. So it uses Topre Switches, but you can use standard cherry mx keycaps?

From what I've heard, the Novatouch is, switch wise, the worst of the Topre boards, comes with cheapo ABS caps and is overpriced. For a little more you could get a Leopold FC660C; or for a little less a Type Heaven 104.

Interesting, thanks!


Okay so now I guess I'm sort of deciding between the following:

KUL ES-87 with clears
HHKB Pro 2 (but probably not since it's pretty expensive)
CM Novatouch
Leopold FC660C.

Opinions on the list above and which one I should get? I'm leaning towards the KUL at the moment, but getting Topre switches would also be cool.

[notsonerd]

Yes, the Novatouch is the only Topre board that supports Cherry MX keycaps. If you look carefully at the switch, it basically has a Cherry MX stem inside the Topre stem.

[Gunni]

Yes, the Novatouch is the only Topre board that supports Cherry MX keycaps. If you look carefully at the switch, it basically has a Cherry MX stem inside the Topre stem.

Hmm okay.

Well after researching a bit more, I think I'm pretty set on getting the KUL ES-87. I don't think I'm wanting to spend $250+ on a Topre board and I do want to customise the keycaps. And I'd rather get something else other than the Novatouch.

So yeah, most likely buying the KUL ES-87 with clears in the next couple of days, unless someone talks me out of it! 

EDIT: It seems to be out of stock on mechanicalkeyboards.com, are there any other sites which will ship it to Australia?

Thanks

[rowdy]

Yes, the Novatouch is the only Topre board that supports Cherry MX keycaps. If you look carefully at the switch, it basically has a Cherry MX stem inside the Topre stem.

Hmm okay.

Well after researching a bit more, I think I'm pretty set on getting the KUL ES-87. I don't think I'm wanting to spend $250+ on a Topre board and I do want to customise the keycaps. And I'd rather get something else other than the Novatouch.

So yeah, most likely buying the KUL ES-87 with clears in the next couple of days, unless someone talks me out of it! 

EDIT: It seems to be out of stock on mechanicalkeyboards.com, are there any other sites which will ship it to Australia?

Thanks

AusPCMarket has KUL, but only MX brown.

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/kul-es-87-tenkeyless-87-key-black-mechanical-keyboard-cherry-brown-sw/

Maybe you could email them to ask if they are getting any MX clear in.

[Gunni]

Yes, the Novatouch is the only Topre board that supports Cherry MX keycaps. If you look carefully at the switch, it basically has a Cherry MX stem inside the Topre stem.

Hmm okay.

Well after researching a bit more, I think I'm pretty set on getting the KUL ES-87. I don't think I'm wanting to spend $250+ on a Topre board and I do want to customise the keycaps. And I'd rather get something else other than the Novatouch.

So yeah, most likely buying the KUL ES-87 with clears in the next couple of days, unless someone talks me out of it! 

EDIT: It seems to be out of stock on mechanicalkeyboards.com, are there any other sites which will ship it to Australia?

Thanks

AusPCMarket has KUL, but only MX brown.

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/kul-es-87-tenkeyless-87-key-black-mechanical-keyboard-cherry-brown-sw/

Maybe you could email them to ask if they are getting any MX clear in.

Okay thanks, I sent them a message!

Do you know any other places, in-case they're not getting them in?

[rowdy]

AusPCMarket has KUL, but only MX brown.

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/kul-es-87-tenkeyless-87-key-black-mechanical-keyboard-cherry-brown-sw/

Maybe you could email them to ask if they are getting any MX clear in.

Okay thanks, I sent them a message!

Do you know any other places, in-case they're not getting them in?

I got that from the list of distributors on the KUL web site.

I have not seen KUL keyboards listed anywhere else in Australia.

[Gunni]

AusPCMarket has KUL, but only MX brown.

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/kul-es-87-tenkeyless-87-key-black-mechanical-keyboard-cherry-brown-sw/

Maybe you could email them to ask if they are getting any MX clear in.

Okay thanks, I sent them a message!

Do you know any other places, in-case they're not getting them in?

I got that from the list of distributors on the KUL web site.

I have not seen KUL keyboards listed anywhere else in Australia.

Hmm okay, well if they say they're not getting clears I might have to have a little bit of a search around.

Thanks

[Gunni]

Well, they said they're not getting clears, they said the following exactly:

"No, sorry - shortage of switch stock at the manufacturer level."

Damn, not sure what to do now, unless there's another place that sells them. Otherwise I might have to go with something else.

EDIT: Okay, so now I'm looking around to see if I can find another KUL ES-87 with clears that will ship to Australia. If not, I need recommendations for a cherry mx keyboard, I'm thinking now I actually want a 60% sized keyboard, preferably with clear switches.

EDIT #2: Researching 60% sized boards, and the Poker II seems like the way to go? But it only comes in brown, red and blue right. Dang I wish it came in clear.

Thanks

[Oobly]

Well, they said they're not getting clears, they said the following exactly:

"No, sorry - shortage of switch stock at the manufacturer level."

Damn, not sure what to do now, unless there's another place that sells them. Otherwise I might have to go with something else.

EDIT: Okay, so now I'm looking around to see if I can find another KUL ES-87 with clears that will ship to Australia. If not, I need recommendations for a cherry mx keyboard, I'm thinking now I actually want a 60% sized keyboard, preferably with clear switches.

EDIT #2: Researching 60% sized boards, and the Poker II seems like the way to go? But it only comes in brown, red and blue right. Dang I wish it came in clear.

Thanks

You're in luck AFAIK, they ship internationally:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kbc-poker-2-clear/?mode=guest_open

[Gunni]

Well, they said they're not getting clears, they said the following exactly:

"No, sorry - shortage of switch stock at the manufacturer level."

Damn, not sure what to do now, unless there's another place that sells them. Otherwise I might have to go with something else.

EDIT: Okay, so now I'm looking around to see if I can find another KUL ES-87 with clears that will ship to Australia. If not, I need recommendations for a cherry mx keyboard, I'm thinking now I actually want a 60% sized keyboard, preferably with clear switches.

EDIT #2: Researching 60% sized boards, and the Poker II seems like the way to go? But it only comes in brown, red and blue right. Dang I wish it came in clear.

Thanks

You're in luck AFAIK, they ship internationally:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kbc-poker-2-clear/?mode=guest_open

:O :O :O Yay! Okay so I'm most likely going to buy this board now! Thanks for linking this

[Gunni]

Sorry for the double-post, but I just wanted to announce that I bought it! So I've never used Massdrop before, but I guess once it's over (in 8 days) they'll ship them out and charge the price that was unlocked depending on how many people bought it? I was trying to decide for so long but I ended up purchasing the grey with no backlighting. My current keyboard already has backlighting and for some reason I view it as a little 'tacky', not sure why 

So now I'm just going to look around for a nice set of custom keycaps. Haven't completely decided on the colour theme. I was going to go with little brown/dark brown (like the coffee set) but I don't know how long till they're available again. I also want to get my hands on a CC eventually, but I know that might take a while, if I ever get one at all!

Thanks for all the advice and help with everything, I really appreciate it

[notsonerd]

Sorry for the double-post, but I just wanted to announce that I bought it! So I've never used Massdrop before, but I guess once it's over (in 8 days) they'll ship them out and charge the price that was unlocked depending on how many people bought it? I was trying to decide for so long but I ended up purchasing the grey with no backlighting. My current keyboard already has backlighting and for some reason I view it as a little 'tacky', not sure why 

So now I'm just going to look around for a nice set of custom keycaps. Haven't completely decided on the colour theme. I was going to go with little brown/dark brown (like the coffee set) but I don't know how long till they're available again. I also want to get my hands on a CC eventually, but I know that might take a while, if I ever get one at all!

Thanks for all the advice and help with everything, I really appreciate it

It looks like you'll have plenty of time to find your keycaps; the Poker II with Clears on Massdrop isn't estimated to ship until December 19th.

[Gunni]

Sorry for the double-post, but I just wanted to announce that I bought it! So I've never used Massdrop before, but I guess once it's over (in 8 days) they'll ship them out and charge the price that was unlocked depending on how many people bought it? I was trying to decide for so long but I ended up purchasing the grey with no backlighting. My current keyboard already has backlighting and for some reason I view it as a little 'tacky', not sure why 

So now I'm just going to look around for a nice set of custom keycaps. Haven't completely decided on the colour theme. I was going to go with little brown/dark brown (like the coffee set) but I don't know how long till they're available again. I also want to get my hands on a CC eventually, but I know that might take a while, if I ever get one at all!

Thanks for all the advice and help with everything, I really appreciate it

It looks like you'll have plenty of time to find your keycaps; the Poker II with Clears on Massdrop isn't estimated to ship until December 19th.

Where'd you read that? It says 8 days remaining, why would it ship on December 19th?

EDIT: Damn...found it. Why would they not ship it till December 19th? That feels like ages away, and I wanted it soon! Not sure what to do now, I wanted another board in the next couple of weeks :/

[rowdy]

About the only thing you can do is buy another keyboard now, and either keep both or sell the first one when the second one arrives.

If you want another 60%, Ducky Mini is available from PCCG: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_1361&zenid=2baba418eaa33e76f2c57b3738c3a353

[Oobly]

The Ducky Mini at PCCG only comes in Reds or Blues, but it's also a really good board. I wouldn't say it's as good as the Poker, though, for a number of reasons (primarily the programmability and the thick PBT keycaps).

The Poker II with Clears is referred to as a "unicorn" board due it's rarity and desirability. Clears with thick PBT caps are really awesome combination and to find a board that comes with that combo stock is very rare. AFAIK, before Massdrop created the order for them from Vortex, there were none with Clears except for customs / DIY modded boards. That's the only place I know of to get them and IMHO it's worth the wait. I apologise for not checking the sending date and making a note of it in my post.

Massdrop works like a Group Buy. They set an end date, get the orders in and then when the end date is reached they place the order for the full quantity with the supplier (in order to get bulk pricing or to order a product that they company doesn't provide usually or in small quantities. The Poker II order gets both benefits). When they arrive, they split the order and ship them out.

[Gunni]

About the only thing you can do is buy another keyboard now, and either keep both or sell the first one when the second one arrives.

If you want another 60%, Ducky Mini is available from PCCG: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_1361&zenid=2baba418eaa33e76f2c57b3738c3a353

Hmm okay. Thanks for linking this, I'll take a look at it. Since I'm already getting the Poker II with clears, I'll probably get something different. So I won't get clears or possibly even a 60%. I might try to get an IBM Model M possibly? or maybe just a nice board with blues, possibly the Ducky Mini. I'll probably get a TKL board with blues. Now that I've been researching a lot of TKL/60% boards I can't even imagine having a full sized board

The Ducky Mini at PCCG only comes in Reds or Blues, but it's also a really good board. I wouldn't say it's as good as the Poker, though, for a number of reasons (primarily the programmability and the thick PBT keycaps).

The Poker II with Clears is referred to as a "unicorn" board due it's rarity and desirability. Clears with thick PBT caps are really awesome combination and to find a board that comes with that combo stock is very rare. AFAIK, before Massdrop created the order for them from Vortex, there were none with Clears except for customs / DIY modded boards. That's the only place I know of to get them and IMHO it's worth the wait. I apologise for not checking the sending date and making a note of it in my post.

Massdrop works like a Group Buy. They set an end date, get the orders in and then when the end date is reached they place the order for the full quantity with the supplier (in order to get bulk pricing or to order a product that they company doesn't provide usually or in small quantities. The Poker II order gets both benefits). When they arrive, they split the order and ship them out.

No worries, thanks for the info!

I was actually thinking of going with a HHKB Pro 2, even though it's pretty pricey (not to mention the shipping). But I haven't pulled the trigger yet, I might regret it! :/

[notsonerd]

Sorry for the double-post, but I just wanted to announce that I bought it! So I've never used Massdrop before, but I guess once it's over (in 8 days) they'll ship them out and charge the price that was unlocked depending on how many people bought it? I was trying to decide for so long but I ended up purchasing the grey with no backlighting. My current keyboard already has backlighting and for some reason I view it as a little 'tacky', not sure why 

So now I'm just going to look around for a nice set of custom keycaps. Haven't completely decided on the colour theme. I was going to go with little brown/dark brown (like the coffee set) but I don't know how long till they're available again. I also want to get my hands on a CC eventually, but I know that might take a while, if I ever get one at all!

Thanks for all the advice and help with everything, I really appreciate it

It looks like you'll have plenty of time to find your keycaps; the Poker II with Clears on Massdrop isn't estimated to ship until December 19th.

Where'd you read that? It says 8 days remaining, why would it ship on December 19th?

EDIT: Damn...found it. Why would they not ship it till December 19th? That feels like ages away, and I wanted it soon! Not sure what to do now, I wanted another board in the next couple of weeks :/

The KBP V60 is available with Clears on mechanicalkeyboards.com, it just doesn't come with PBT keycaps.

Honestly though, I think your best option for getting a board with Clears or even the Poker II with Clears is to submit a Want-to-Buy in the Classifieds on either here or mechmarket. I've seen a few on a sale since the last drop for it (not so much a unicorn since they keep dropping it) from people who found that Clears weren't for them. You might get lucky and be able to buy it for the same price, if not cheaper, than the current drop and still get it much sooner.

[Gunni]

Sorry for the double-post, but I just wanted to announce that I bought it! So I've never used Massdrop before, but I guess once it's over (in 8 days) they'll ship them out and charge the price that was unlocked depending on how many people bought it? I was trying to decide for so long but I ended up purchasing the grey with no backlighting. My current keyboard already has backlighting and for some reason I view it as a little 'tacky', not sure why 

So now I'm just going to look around for a nice set of custom keycaps. Haven't completely decided on the colour theme. I was going to go with little brown/dark brown (like the coffee set) but I don't know how long till they're available again. I also want to get my hands on a CC eventually, but I know that might take a while, if I ever get one at all!

Thanks for all the advice and help with everything, I really appreciate it

It looks like you'll have plenty of time to find your keycaps; the Poker II with Clears on Massdrop isn't estimated to ship until December 19th.

Where'd you read that? It says 8 days remaining, why would it ship on December 19th?

EDIT: Damn...found it. Why would they not ship it till December 19th? That feels like ages away, and I wanted it soon! Not sure what to do now, I wanted another board in the next couple of weeks :/

The KBP V60 is available with Clears on mechanicalkeyboards.com, it just doesn't come with PBT keycaps.

Honestly though, I think your best option for getting a board with Clears or even the Poker II with Clears is to submit a Want-to-Buy in the Classifieds on either here or mechmarket. I've seen a few on a sale since the last drop for it (not so much a unicorn since they keep dropping it) from people who found that Clears weren't for them. You might get lucky and be able to buy it for the same price, if not cheaper, than the current drop and still get it much sooner.

Good idea thanks

[0100010]

Massdrop has Poker II's with MX Clears : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62465.0

[Gunni]

Massdrop has Poker II's with MX Clears : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62465.0

I'm aware, read the previous posts ;p

Just didn't want to wait till after December 19th to get a new board.

[Gunni]

Dang, was actually going to go through with buying the HHKB Pro 2 from Elitekeyboards, but including postage to Australia it's about $385 :/ Pretty damn expensive. Oh well, I might just have to watch more videos of people using them, and if you've got any inspirational words I'm all ears