Tenkeyless?

[patrickgeekhack]

Okay, I never thought I would one day say this, but I'm seriously considering a tenkeyless. Consider does not mean that I will definitely buy one though. Due to some pain in my mousing hand, I have bought the Evoluent mouse. A tenkeyless keyboard would help in getting the mouse closer.

Now, the other side of the coin. What I'm worried is whether or not I'll be able to live without a numerical keypad like Marco who ended up getting a 103 Realforce after he realised he could not live without a numerical keypad. If I was a programmer or a writer, then I would not hesitate. But, I'm not. I have to enter digits very often both at work and at home. I have used the numerical keypad so much that I don't have to look at it while entering the numbers.

One more thing to consider is finance. The ideal would be if I could wait until the end of the year.  I can try avoiding the use of the numerical keypad which will give me a good idea if I can invest my money in such a keyboard. But, I'm also worried that the Canadian dollar will depreciate against the US dollar. Right now, it's quite good. A tenkeyless from elitekeyboards.com with shipping will cost around CDN $167.

[fuzzybyte]

you could just buy one of those separate numpads.

[patrickgeekhack]

you could just buy one of those separate numpads.

That could be a solution indeed. I've been buying keyboards without really thinking. I should have bought with an ergonomic thinking. Oh well!

[bitflipper]

You should really consider making the switch to a trackball for that hand pain. After increasing strain from the mouse, about 2 years ago, I switched and haven't looked back. Pain free, strain free.

Tenkeyless to get the pointing device closer does help. And definitely get an external keypad. You can place it out of the way until you need to use it. Now you have 3 things to purchase.

[rdjack21]

I agree with the try a track ball for the right hand you will be surprised how much just that alone can help. But be warned they do take a little while to learn how to use them effectively.

I've pretty much also moved to tenkeyless keyboards as well but then again I really don't use the number pad much (write code all day). For those that use the number pad allot I can see the need to have one. But for those that only use them on occasion a separate key pad that can be moved out of the way when not needed can be a big plus.

[patrickgeekhack]

You should really consider making the switch to a trackball for that hand pain. After increasing strain from the mouse, about 2 years ago, I switched and haven't looked back. Pain free, strain free.

I thought about a trackball, but the lack of scrolling is what is keeping me from doing the switch. This is why I purchased an Evoluent mouse.

Tenkeyless to get the pointing device closer does help. And definitely get an external keypad. You can place it out of the way until you need to use it. Now you have 3 things to purchase.

I know it's going to cost me a lot of money. I need to buy a new chair and a new chairmat. If I do buy a tenkeyless, I'll probably use it more at work than at home. I spend more time on a computer at work than I do at home. I used to spend a lot of time in front of the computer at home, but since the birth of my daughter, I'm trying to avoid this.

All in all, my "ergonomic" project is going to cost me a lot of money, but it's not an option really. Either I spend the money for pain relief or I don't and continue to suffer.

[o2dazone]

This has a scroll wheel

[patrickgeekhack]

Show Image

This has a scroll wheel :)

What on earth is that? LOL

[o2dazone]

I dare say the best thumb trackball ever as seen here

[lal]

I don't know why but I'd have to be hard pressed to buy a Microsoft product.  The Logitech Trackman Wheel is similar and has a scrollwheel, too.

[skyian]

I will suggest you buy a Realforce 87U. ^_^

By pressing the number lock key, you could enter the numbers as quickly as if you have a numeric pad. Also you could buy a separate numeric pad just in case.

BTW, I am also now considering about track ball. Though keytronic just released its new trackball, actually I am quite for the old "expert trackball" which is about 2000 NTD( 61 USD) in Taiwan.

[patrickgeekhack]

I do recommend trying to use the standard number keys before the keypad.  Like anything you'll get better over time.  I simply use the number row as homerow while entering numbers.  I also remapped tilde to period.  

I've got a keypad but it'll only come out during tax season.

P.S. THAT is a $250 collectible device that should not be used but stuck in a box somewhere.

If I do go the tenkeyless way at work, I won't get an exernal keypad, at least not in an immediate future. I always have a Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard connected to my work PC all the time. Time will tell.

[o2dazone]

I don't know why but I'd have to be hard pressed to buy a Microsoft product.  The Logitech Trackman Wheel is similar and has a scrollwheel, too.

Show Image

Sorry to derail this thread a tad, but this is a common misconception. The Trackman is garbage :( And everyone who owns an MSO, has tried one (or quite a few have according to a previous thread). The ball is too small...and it's Logitech - which have been in the market of designing flaws into their peripherals for quite a while. A lot of the people who use an MSO here on the board, have been using one for 5+ years, without fail.

Don't mean to go off on such a tangent, but if you're seriously considering a thumb controlled trackball, I would prefer if someone didn't taint their experience with the Trackman.

With that said, a smaller keyboard will also help. I was getting some serious shoulder/elbow pain playing jump maps in Team Fortress 2. I would lean on my mouse arm a lot and sway my body around, not realizing how much continuous stress I'd be putting on my right hand. After getting the HHK, that definitely changed. It's not easier to game on...the actuation force is a little more than the browns are, so I'm having to work a little harder, but it feels much more natural having my mouse hand rest to the right of my keyboard. It's very comfortable.

[MsKeyboard]

There are plenty of other threads here right now, but I will tell you that I really am enjoying my Mechanical Modular keyboard.

You can get them in either Brown or Blue Cherry, and the first module that will be available next month is the number pad.  You have the ability to add the modules to the left or right, or even the top, or not at all.

The idea behind this board is the ability to make it what you want, when you want it.  No changing out the basic board just to have access to other functions, and it is a true mechanical board.

As I said, I really like mine. Thought you might like a little more info to confuse your decision.

Later.......

[IBI]

Go for a left-handed keyboard, I've recently got one myself and it's really the only layout to go for. It's far better than a tenkeyless for bringing the mouse closer and includes a normal number pad. You do need to get used to using it with your left hand, but that shouldn't take long if you use it frequently.

Even better, ergocanada has one with audible, clicky cherry switches which sound like blues to me: http://www.ergocanada.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=Keyboard_OneLeft&cart_id=2697060.82147 (although the details page says linear, so you might like to send them an e-mail first). MsKeyboard has said the Fentek one uses blue cherrys if you can't find any in Canada.

Mine is of the same design (although UK layout) and uses clicky simplified alps.

[rdjack21]

Sorry to derail this thread a tad, but this is a common misconception. The Trackman is garbage And everyone who owns an MSO, has tried one (or quite a few have according to a previous thread). The ball is too small...and it's Logitech - which have been in the market of designing flaws into their peripherals for quite a while. A lot of the people who use an MSO here on the board, have been using one for 5+ years, without fail.

Don't mean to go off on such a tangent, but if you're seriously considering a thumb controlled trackball, I would prefer if someone didn't taint their experience with the Trackman.

Oh man if that is not a flame war waiting to happen I don't know one. The Trackman is far from being a POS and yes I have tried the MSO and personally did not like it. Even though I did not like it I don't go around trash talking it like you have the Trackman. I've been using Trackman's ever since they first came out (10+ years) and have never had a problem with them. Every body has their personal favorite trackball weather it is the Trackman the MSO or the any one of the Kensington trackballs. Even though you have decided you like the MSO does not mean every one likes it for what ever reason. So please lets stop the trash talk.

[lal]

The Trackman is garbage [...] The ball is too small...and it's Logitech - which have been in the market of designing flaws into their peripherals for quite a while.

Well, I have never used a Microsoft trackball and probably never will, maybe it is really *that* much better.  But I'm quite happy with my Logitech, can't imagine how I'd benefit from a bigger ball, and contrary to your opinion I regard Logitech as a long time manufacturer of generally robust pointing devices that do their job.  But I admit that yours is probably bigger than mine

[o2dazone]

Oh man if that is not a flame war waiting to happen I don't know one. The Trackman is far from being a POS and yes I have tried the MSO and personally did not like it. Even though I did not like it I don't go around trash talking it like you have the Trackman. I've been using Trackman's ever since they first came out (10+ years) and have never had a problem with them. Every body has their personal favorite trackball weather it is the Trackman the MSO or the any one of the Kensington trackballs. Even though you have decided you like the MSO does not mean every one likes it for what ever reason. So please lets stop the trash talk.

lol
sorry, didn't know you were so passionate about it - you got stock invested in Logitech?
I really don't care either way, I know what works for me, and according to a couple threads that cropped up here, it sounded like no one liked a Trackman. I guess that's not true Didn't mean to step on anyones toes

[o2dazone]

But I admit that yours is probably bigger than mine

I heard it's the motion of the ocean that counts :B
I've had Logitech mice fail on me time and time again, I've got a theory, but I'm taking a lot of heat from the Logitech fans here already so I'll save it for another thread

[o2dazone]

Sure you did.  Otherwise why post a collectors trackball??  At least the Logitech is cheap and easy to throw away if you don't like. :fencing:

Very true - especially considering the inflated MSO price nowadays...Trackmans are still readily available, and I believe someone on here grabbed an MSO, tried it for a while and just couldn't get used to it. Quite an investment for something to try...but then again, a lot of us  spend money on switches we've never tried before

[Binge]

Speaking of the Tenkeyless.  I'm optimistic about becoming an owner.  It'll be interesting to see if I actually miss the full sized keyboard since I am proficient with the number bar.

[o2dazone]

I'd post mine, but I haven't cleaned them in a while :/

[rdjack21]

Sorry, one last one from me.

My balls are bigger than yours.

Show Image

We need to start posting more in the pointing devices part of the forum.  Pretty sleepy over there.

 Yea your balls are bigger than mine but hey size is not every thing at lest that is what she said :(

[itlnstln]

It may not be everything, but it sure helps.

[rdjack21]

Back on subject!!!!!!!!

I'm starting to think the tenkeyless boards are not quite small enough. So how about a HHKB Pro instead? I would think for a travel keyboard the HHKB could not be beat. I think the only think I would miss on the HHKB is the function keys. I use those allot. But all that junk to the right of the enter key is pretty usless. I mean if you are going to get rid of the num pad why not go all the way and get rid of every thing except the main alpha section and the function keys. I'm actually supprised that Filco has not come out with a board that drops all of that other stuff as well.

[MsKeyboard]

MsKeyboard has said the Fentek one uses blue cherrys if you can't find any in Canada.

Yes, that left handed keyboard is Blue Cherry.

If there are any specific questions about this board I would be more than happy to try and answer them.

Later....

[patrickgeekhack]

Back on subject!!!!!!!!

I'm starting to think the tenkeyless boards are not quite small enough. So how about a HHKB Pro instead? I would think for a travel keyboard the HHKB could not be beat. I think the only think I would miss on the HHKB is the function keys. I use those allot. But all that junk to the right of the enter key is pretty usless. I mean if you are going to get rid of the num pad why not go all the way and get rid of every thing except the main alpha section and the function keys. I'm actually supprised that Filco has not come out with a board that drops all of that other stuff as well.

I would be very unhappy with a HHKB because of the layout. But I agree that the Tenkeyless can be improved. The right control key could have been removed to allow the arrrow keys to be moved closer. The other keys could be aligned vertically instead of horizontally.

[rdjack21]

I would be very unhappy with a HHKB because of the layout. But I agree that the Tenkeyless can be improved. The right control key could have been removed to allow the arrrow keys to be moved closer. The other keys could be aligned vertically instead of horizontally.

Yes take this one:


Fix the enter key move \ to the correct place switch caps lock and Ctrl change the switch from white Alps to Cherry or better yet Topre and it would be a great board. Small and functional. I actually have this one but I really don't like the White Alps in it. I'm thinking I should either sell it or replace the White Alps with Black Alps which are OK. At some point I will make up my mind but I'm beginning to lean towards fixing it verses getting rid of it.

[patrickgeekhack]

Yes take this one:

Show Image

Fix the enter key move \ to the correct place switch caps lock and Ctrl change the switch from white Alps to Cherry or better yet Topre and it would be a great board. Small and functional. I actually have this one but I really don't like the White Alps in it. I'm thinking I should either sell it or replace the White Alps with Black Alps which are OK. At some point I will make up my mind but I'm beginning to lean towards fixing it verses getting rid of it.

This is a nice keyboard. Too bad keyboards cannot be customized to each buyer's tastes. That would have been cool.

[timw4mail]

This is a nice keyboard. Too bad keyboards cannot be customized to each buyer's tastes. That would have been cool.

You invent a way to do that and you'll make millions off of programmers alone

[rdjack21]

This is a nice keyboard. Too bad keyboards cannot be customized to each buyer's tastes. That would have been cool.

Actually some of the changes I can do in software. The biggest problem for me are the switches the White Alps are just a little too stiff for me. The key layout I can deal with, actually when I was typing on it the lay out was not really all that bad but man those White Alps are just way to stiff.

[rdjack21]

Sorry, one last one from me.

My balls are bigger than yours.

Show Image

We need to start posting more in the pointing devices part of the forum.  Pretty sleepy over there.

Ha check this out AC DC Big Balls

[Rajagra]

All problems are solved if you put that area under the space bar to good use:


OK, Windows keys need work in case you need Windows-V or Windows-N
Edit> Actually it's worse than that, physical Windows keys might be essential.

[itlnstln]

I use Win+L a lot here at work (it locks your PC), but that's about the Windows key use I ever get.  I am sure I would find others more useful, but I don't ever care to learn any others.

[patrickgeekhack]

Yes, that left handed keyboard is Blue Cherry.

If there are any specific questions about this board I would be more than happy to try and answer them.

Later....

I'm tempted to say that learning to use the keypad with my left hand can potentially cause more harm than good as I may adopt a bad posture. However, I cannot say for sure until I've tried it.

[patrickgeekhack]

I use Win+L a lot here at work (it locks your PC), but that's about the Windows key use I ever get.  I am sure I would find others more useful, but I don't ever care to learn any others.

The Windows key combination I use are:

Win+L
Win+R
Win+Pause
Win+D

At home I use a Mac, so it's a different story. I have yet to master the shortcuts on Mac completely. I can edit almost any shortcut keys I want. However, what is missing on the Mac is how to get the file menu with a single key combination such ALT+F under Windows.

[Rajagra]

Tweaked a bit...

[patrickgeekhack]

You really don't need a compact board if the issue is RSI.

Please elaborate...

I'm still debating. At the end of the day, yesterday, the pain was less. Still there but less. Relief, not cure.

[talis]

It would be interesting if it was possible to design a somewhat generic grid of key switches that would allow the end user to attach either single or multi-span key caps to the switches, similar to the programmable macro boards (but with an offset, rather then regular grid).

That would allow some customization of the key layout (within some bounds).  Alternatively targeting a smaller niche market one could build a keyboard "kit" that comes un-assembled, the end user would have to solder the key switches in place (again with some limits on possible configurations), and possibly program the controller to give the key assignments desired.



The only win key I tend to use a lot is win-E.

[patrickgeekhack]

I just meant a 10keyless is fine if the issue is bringing the mouse in to a comfortable distance.  Once you shave off 5 inches there's no need shave another 2" (the HHKB is 11.6 inches wide).

Some people would argue the HHKB is better because of the layout but if it's your right hand that hurts the arrow keys on the HHKB are a REAL pain.  Try it.

I see. Like I said, I don't think I'll be happy with a HHKB. I use the arrow keys a lot in Excel. I also use the Home and End keys a lot. While I would be able to live with a keyboard which have these keys vertically, I would  not be able to use them as on the HHKB.

Today I turned off my numlock, and found myself hitting the keys many times. It will take a while before I can be numpad free.

[bitflipper]

It would be interesting if it was possible to design a somewhat generic grid of key switches that would allow the end user to attach either single or multi-span key caps to the switches, similar to the programmable macro boards (but with an offset, rather then regular grid).

That would allow some customization of the key layout (within some bounds).  Alternatively targeting a smaller niche market one could build a keyboard "kit" that comes un-assembled, the end user would have to solder the key switches in place (again with some limits on possible configurations), and possibly program the controller to give the key assignments desired.

This is almost what you describe. 25 keys doesn't seem like it would be enough, though :smile:

[bigpook]

I am a righty but use a trackball on the left hand side. In the beginning it is very much goofy mousing.

It takes a week or so but it becomes sane. I can mouse with either hand now, but still keep the mouse on the left hand side. Even though I use keyboards without numpads I find the mouse more advantageous on the left hand side. Scrolling is no longer a big deal for me since the arrow keys/page up-down are easily accessed with the right hand. YMMV of course but it works out very well. The downside is getting lefthanded mice. Hence my affinity for kensington mice.

[patrickgeekhack]

Patrick, have you ever tried a  trackball or mouse with your left hand??  I believe there are right handers here that are able to do that exclusively.  I do a combo of both to give my right hand a break.  The Logitech marble is cheap and commonly available - maybe just for Excel and web browsing.  Use a third party app for the scroll using the ball - not bad really.  

I do use my mouse with my left hand from time to time, and I'm pretty good at it. It was a bit weird at the beginning, but after a while it was fine.  There are a few things that I prefer to do with my left hand. If I'm washing my car, very often I will find myself using my left hand. The very very rare times that I golf (once a year when the company pays for it), I use left-handed clubs.

The whole 10keyless, numpad, ergo mice, thing is starting to add up $$$ and you don't seem sold on 10keyless.

You nailed it here. I'm not completely sold on the Tenkeyless because it's not cheap on one hand, and I'm not so sure I will be able to live without a numpad on the other hand. It's kind of similar to deciding about buying a Topre or not. I guess if money was not a problem, I would not be asking these kinds of questions. A Tenkeyless keyboard, a numpad, and an ergo mouse do add up like you said.

I don't want to feel like an idiot having bought so many keyboards and all of a sudden find that I need yet another one LOL.

That said, I'm liking my Evoluent mouse a lot.

[patrickgeekhack]

I am a righty but use a trackball on the left hand side. In the beginning it is very much goofy mousing.

It takes a week or so but it becomes sane. I can mouse with either hand now, but still keep the mouse on the left hand side. Even though I use keyboards without numpads I find the mouse more advantageous on the left hand side. Scrolling is no longer a big deal for me since the arrow keys/page up-down are easily accessed with the right hand. YMMV of course but it works out very well. The downside is getting lefthanded mice. Hence my affinity for kensington mice.

Maybe I should start using the arrow keys in conjunction with the wheel for scrolling. What I'm trying to do is analyze what I have been doing badly for the past 11 years and then try correcting it. What I'm also trying to do is vary how I do things. Alternating between right and left hand for mouse and now maybe between arrow keys and wheel. I'm also trying to get my butt off the chair from time to time to take some break, easier said than done.

[Rajagra]

EDIT>This is continued here. http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6491


Not sure if this is the best place to post this, but as I got the idea from this thread, here goes...

I've set up an AutoHotkey script to cram all the useful keys into the main block. CapsLock acts as the modifier, unless it is pressed alone in which case it does backspace.

I included the multimedia keys from a script in another thread.



To minimise conflicts (I had lots of grief with CapsLock) I used KeyTweak to change these keys:

CapsLock key changed to be "Macintosh Keypad ="
Context Menu key changed to be CapsLock
(ScrollLock key changed to be a Windows key)

The script is attached, just rename the .txt to .ahk

Edit> working on it still, getting keys to work with modifiers is messy...

[rdh]

This is almost what you describe. 25 keys doesn't seem like it would be enough, though :smile:

Looks like you can buy extra key sets and use up to 50 keys.

With two of them and extra keys, you could set up your own custom split-keyboard layout... except that you can only use one at a time.

[IBI]

I'm tempted to say that learning to use the keypad with my left hand can potentially cause more harm than good as I may adopt a bad posture. However, I cannot say for sure until I've tried it.

It's the same distance the mouse is with a left handed keyboard, about 25cm from the center of the home row for both, as this very poor quality picture from my phone (camera designed circa 1845) shows:



(the diagram in the book is a graphical solution to an integer programming problem if anyone's curious)

Yeah, somebody try the Fentek one.  It may be a sleeper since nobody here has tried it.

I'm fairly sure the one I've got is virtually the same design. I can't comment on how it handles blue cherries (or even Strongman alps, not having tried another keyboard with them), but it's a decent keyboard overall. The black keycaps on mine appear to be painted and the keyboard is decently heavy with reasonable brightness green LEDs.

I'm starting to think the tenkeyless boards are not quite small enough.

Having tried a G80-1800 and a 'compact' keyboard (the shortboard I wrote a review of) I'd agree. I feel that now neither of them were really small enough and it's only with my current keyboard with absolutely nothing except a ~17mm surround to the left of enter do I feel I don't need to keep moving my keyboard. Ideally I'd like a filco-like thiness of surround too, but that'll go on my wish list next to N-key rollover and complicated alps.

[patrickgeekhack]

If I'm getting this right you have the black alps version of this.  I would think the Blue Cherry one (from Fentek) would be pretty nice.  I think the big remaining issues are though the retraining for left handed arrow key and 10key use.  Arrow keys should take minimal retraining but I was surprised how bad I was left handed on a numpad.

I would have to try using the numpad with my left hand for a few days and see how it feels. I have driven cars with the wheel on the right side and also on the left side. I have had no problem shifting gears. A numpad is a bit more complicated though.

[IBI]

If I'm getting this right you have the black alps version of this.

It's got grey stems and a click leaf, but I'm not sure what the colours mean on the alps as the Filco Zero looks like it may have the same Type 1 clicky alps but with white stems.

[rdjack21]

Having tried a G80-1800 and a 'compact' keyboard (the shortboard I wrote a review of) I'd agree. I feel that now neither of them were really small enough and it's only with my current keyboard with absolutely nothing except a ~17mm surround to the left of enter do I feel I don't need to keep moving my keyboard. Ideally I'd like a filco-like thiness of surround too, but that'll go on my wish list next to N-key rollover and complicated alps.

No I have not tried the G80-1800 but I do have the Compaq MX11800 which is pretty close. Still not what I want. I'm thinking HHKB Pro with function keys would be about right. Well see if I can live with out the function keys as I've ordered a HHKB Pro