Author Topic: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit  (Read 9608 times)

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Offline dorkvader

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[Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:07:47 »
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/learn-to-solder-kit?mode=guest_open

Yeah Massdrop gets some cool soldering stuff!

Offline Sniping

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:21:46 »
Hmmm...I might have to get this.

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:24:42 »
The drop ends just as I get my paycheck.... so maybe.
But I already bought so many things.....
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Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:32:42 »
The outright vitriol and ignorance is astounding.

Calling it a learn to solder kit might be worse, thematically, than calling it a "seriously, this is all a hobbiest will need for the next decade" kit, though.  Regardless, the baseless claims just stun me, but then it wouldn't be a massdrop without people QQing about a price they don't understand.

Offline trizkut

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:35:46 »
Seems like most people there only look at the title and price tag and don't even bother to read the description

Quote
There are plenty of other kits with low quality tools available for lower prices, but as any experienced soldering enthusiast will tell you, it's generally worth it to start with a set of tools that are built to last.


Offline whentheclouds

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:41:23 »
this is a huge conundrum for me - i'm trying to save for Duck's Octagon GB that will end in a month's time. but at the same time there's no point getting a custom if you have no clue about soldering.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:49:43 »
The drop ends just as I get my paycheck.... so maybe.
But I already bought so many things.....
if you contact MD about it (or set payment to bitcoin) they will let you in the drop and hold out an extra few days for you.
it wouldn't be a massdrop without people QQing about a price they don't understand.
more like QQing about everything they don't understand. It's ridic.

Offline jevvix

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:50:23 »
Ahh yes another Massdrop scam.... the markup on that is crazy. Those irons are only $60-$70 individually. I'd highly recommend a beginner to not join this drop. For any beginner, and heck even I still use one and it works just fine, would be far better off with one of the Hakko clones like the Yihua 936. It's a proper adjustable soldering station and accepts any of the Hakko tips. Oh, and it's only $17-$20 without shipping. Get a Hakko compatible 2.4mm chisel tip from eBay and you're pretty much set (honestly I've never used anything but the 2.4mm chisel even for smd work).

Buy it on eBay, hobbyking, etc. there's lots of sources.
Review from the EEVblog. This guy is super harsh on electronics but says it's fine for a beginner and it's going to start a fire or something, it's actually fairly properly designed:



Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:55:28 »
Ahh yes another Massdrop scam.... the markup on that is crazy.
This is 100% false. You cannot buy these same components elsewhere for this price. Other components are not direcly comparable but will likely be of lower quality.

Those irons are only $60-$70 individually. I'd highly recommend a beginner to not join this drop. For any beginner, and heck even I still use one and it works just fine, would be far better off with one of the Hakko clones like the Yihua 936. It's a proper adjustable soldering station and accepts any of the Hakko tips. Oh, and it's only $17-$20 without shipping. Get a Hakko compatible 2.4mm chisel tip from eBay and you're pretty much set (honestly I've never used anything but the 2.4mm chisel even for smd work).

Buy it on eBay, hobbyking, etc. there's lots of sources.
Review from the EEVblog. This guy is super harsh on electronics but says it's fine for a beginner and it's going to start a fire or something, it's actually fairly properly designed:



There are cheap, decent sodlering irons out there, but this isn't just a decent iron. It's an actually good iron. If you want one demonstrably better, you'll have to step up to $160+ for a metcal PS900 or something.

I think the difference in opinion here is the concept that beginner stuff has to be cheap. That's not necessarily true, and I agree with tjcaustin that this drop is possibly misnamed. I think that beginners can get quality stuff and not cheap out to the max on everything.

This drop is just farther on the side of "quality" than price than other possibilities.

Of course the best / cheapest solution is to scour local classifides and eBay looking for deals. I got my OKI (now metcal) metcal station for an absolute steal. Same with my sidecutters (brand new excelta ones) and my solder (top-shelf "indium" brand 63/37). But if you don't have hours and hours of time to spend setting up nets looking for deals, you should buy good kit new, and it's hard to beat the quality here, especially for the price. The only other question is where do you fall on the price/quality chart?
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 November 2014, 23:58:29 by dorkvader »

Offline jevvix

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 00:10:15 »
You can for sure price together that exact same kit for cheaper. The rest is opinion.

There's no way would I ever recommend anyone a non-adjustable iron like that with what looks like tiny thermal mass for even half of that price.

I agree that beginner gear is always associated with cheap and doesn't have to be. If that's your price range, go get the Hakko FX-888D for ~$100 and be set for life.

edit: it's only 30w? Good luck trying to do large solder pads or anything with any thermal mass... you'll be scratching your head why the solder isn't melting.
« Last Edit: Mon, 03 November 2014, 00:11:57 by jevvix »

Offline Grendel

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 00:13:38 »
The drop ends just as I get my paycheck.... so maybe.
But I already bought so many things.....

Simple "trick" to get another day: join using Bitcoin as payment. After the drop ends, you'll get a day to pay. You can pay w/ the full range of option :)
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 09:43:40 »
There's no way would I ever recommend anyone a non-adjustable iron like that with what looks like tiny thermal mass for even half of that price.

I agree that beginner gear is always associated with cheap and doesn't have to be. If that's your price range, go get the Hakko FX-888D for ~$100 and be set for life.

edit: it's only 30w? Good luck trying to do large solder pads or anything with any thermal mass... you'll be scratching your head why the solder isn't melting.
I've used a lot of good irons and some of the best (metcal smartheat) are non-adjustable.

Show me where you can piece together that same kit for less. I will be happy to eat my words.

Hakko 888 is not a very good iron for professional (long term) work, but it is a good beginner iron. I hear it has issue with temperature drift though. This is a problem with all the cheap adjustable irons I have seen.

My edsyn 951 is a bit old, only 25W and solders large thermal pads just fine. I used it to desolder a DC jack off a laptop motherboard. Said jack had lead-free solder, 6 pads on a thick ground plane, as well as thermal vias for cooling. It was one of the hardest things I've ever desoldered, and the edsyn did it just fine. Max power ratings aren't everything.

Offline tutuling

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 12:32:53 »
Wasn't these been selling at gh for like at a discounted sale price earlier?

Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 12:40:39 »
The challenge l have with the buy is these tools are too good.   If I was going to buy a simple iron I would want an essentially disposable unit.   This does not go in my tool pouch for work.    If I wanted a professional tool like would by a Weller adjustable workstation or something with a similar value proposition.   This offering is neither fish nor foul for my use cases.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 20:14:30 »
Here's som input on the subject by TP4tissue:
You might be thinking.. Hell that's too much money...

what you should do is Save and get a real beginners setup.

because....   the performance to price ratio is at least 20x as good.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 03:00:51 »
You can for sure price together that exact same kit for cheaper. The rest is opinion.
Show us!

I wanna see you back up this claim by actually pulling together a comparable kit. If you can get even down to the same price, I’ll be highly impressed.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:13:26 »
You can for sure price together that exact same kit for cheaper. The rest is opinion.
Show us!

I wanna see you back up this claim by actually pulling together a comparable kit. If you can get even down to the same price, I’ll be highly impressed.
FWIW, cheap chinese soldering stations do not count as "comparable" to this edsyn. The reasons for this have been properly documented and are easily available.

Offline margo baggins

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:18:06 »
I have one of these irons, I like it a lot.

I only really use my station for stuff where I need a specific tip or a specific heat, for just all out soldering this iron is nice, and it isn't attached to a station, just the right temperature for soldering, all the time. I've used mine for quite a lot of hours and it is just the same as it was out of the box.

It has absolutely fine "thermal mass" for leaded solder, you can solder big stuff with a big tip. it's not a lead free iron, that's for sure, but for leaded solder it's a wonderful iron to use on anything. It's true about max power not being everything metcal sp200 is only 35w and can solder pretty much anything.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:21:09 by margo baggins »
I got boards.



Offline Grendel

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:14:05 »
The challenge l have with the buy is these tools are too good.   If I was going to buy a simple iron I would want an essentially disposable unit.

Like w/ any tool, the higher the quality the better you get a job done -- esp. if you are inexperienced high quality tools are essential.

This does not go in my tool pouch for work.    If I wanted a professional tool like would by a Weller adjustable workstation or something with a similar value proposition.   This offering is neither fish nor foul for my use cases.

Not sure why you even bother to post here then.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:53:50 »
Kit appears to be quality without cost compromise, it's very solid, and the cost is in the firestick. I agree and think it's somewhat mislabeled as "beginner/starter"... a more adequate description could be "quality kit for beginner to mid-range use and projects". Admittedly we are all used to seeing the cheapest prices on earth via the intertoobz, but we also KNOW the cost of that cheapness. The kit is not what everybody wants, but it in no way is a bad deal for what it is, and it's solid. I would put my money in the firestick for certain...

For the record I currently have a Hakko FX-951 and Hakko 808.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 20:33:56 »
there are an ungodly number of compromises in the composition of the kit. we went back and forth for more than a month on which bits would go into the kit, adding and deleting small things that we thought we might be able to cut.

it is true that the tools in the kit are, for the most part, uncompromising for their purpose. the cl1481 is an ideal fixed temperature iron at 110v for leaded soldering and unleaded desoldering. the larsen nippers are simply some of the best money can buy (although they are coming in at a STEEP discount in this kit, and had they not been so relatively inexpensive, they would have been cut), and the soldapullt is a no-brainer.

many people are only seeing the purchase price without looking at the items that come in the kit. the compromises were all in the form of _functionality_ and not quality or, most importantly, safety. to take a random example, we could have included a cupped soldasip tip for swipe soldering of SMT components. However, that is not the point of the kit. The kit's purpose is to help the user understand the use of leaded solder and the effect of tip size, cleanliness and contact surface area as it relates to the quality and ease of creating solder joints. The goal was to make it most useful for DIP soldering and wire joint soldering, with some small work in the form of large passive SMT devices: the conical tip and blunt-nose tweezers cover that functional range specifically, but could have been cut for cost.

in the final decisions that were made, I looked at the highest volume electronics kits on both massdrop and across the internet. on massdrop, by far the biggest DIY segment is the mechanical keyboard segment. that means soldering DIP switches and large SMD diodes. it means doing some large hookup wire work on USB cables. the kit makes the compromises needs to cover these functional ranges, but tries not to stray too far from that. you're not going to be soldering 400A cup joints, and you're not going to be doing 160 pin qfnp chips. but thru-hole passives, hookup wire, and SMD with big components and big solder pads will become your bread and butter if you learn the tools in this kit.

i also tried to be somewhat forward thinking. audio equipment is a very large segment of massdrop and how i first encountered analog circuits that i couldn't just breadboard my way around. diy audio is currently in a sad state of affairs. the simplest, most effective opamp circuits are soldered poorly with substandard, often counterfeit parts in shenzhen, and paid forum users rave about intangible qualities of their output that can't be proven or disproven. there is a "fog of war" in modern electronics. most of the time, they work, but no one knows why. learning to solder is the first step towards lighting a path through the fog. learning is a lot easier when you have help.

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Offline Noko

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:10:35 »
there is a "fog of war" in modern electronics. most of the time, they work, but no one knows why. learning to solder is the first step towards lighting a path through the fog. learning is a lot easier when you have help.

This is sort of the second half of my Massdrop comment (which I feel more comfortable keeping solely to GH ;) )

I feel very lucky that through learning leatherwork I've come to have a proper respect for the value of quality tools as well as the wisdom involved in effectively teaching the complexities of a trade skill.. and I have the greatest respect for the motivation behind the kit and the thought mkawa has put into it (such that I have trusted it completely during my own learning process).

I feel like it's a losing battle trying to explain it, though.  Maybe "Learner's Soldering Kit" or "Apprentice Soldering Kit" might be a better name?  I doubt this would assuage the detractors, but might make a bit of progress in attempting to convey its inspiration.  There is a weird sort of Massdrop troll with no cognitive dissonance issues between high quality/individually made goods and bargain basement prices, I find.  Shrug.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:22:38 by Noko »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:20:48 »
there are an ungodly number of compromises in the composition of the kit.

That's why I said no "cost compromise" and that it's solid. Great quality items of what's included. Whether as a 'kit' is it what someone wants is a different topic. An endless possibility. The best kits I've ever gotten had basics that you "added on to" as you progressed, and even had a list of what some of your next purchases might be.

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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:43:02 »
I don't understand why anyone buys anything without a potential upgrade path in mind.

Whenever I shell out more than about $20, I know what I'm getting, how long I expect it to last, and what I'll do if I outgrow its capacity.

Some of the best advice I give to new computer purchasers who aren't sure if they should go for the cheap computer or the expensive one is: "have in mind how long you want to use this, and when you want to upgrade. If you want to keep it around for a while, then get a nicer one. If you want to get a new one every 2 years, get a cheap one." This has proven helpful time and again.

Some of those cheap irons and cheap tools are great if you only need to use them once. If you plan to keep them around for a while or learn how to solder properly you need to get better kit. It's like learning Piano: You can learn on a cheap $50 synth from the early 1990's, but unless it has weighted keys it's going to hold you back (and you arguably aren't learning how to play an actual piano at that point). If you want to learn to play piano but don't have room for one, get a nicer one with weighted keys and learn properly.

There's so many "workarounds' I have to do with my gear, which some parts are aging and completely terrible. My drill is a cordless makita with no batteries, so I have direct wired it and power it from my benchtop PSU. Since said PSU is unregulated and said drill requires a lot of current, I need to hold down the trigger and flip the power switch on the PSU to turn the drill on and off. This is almost as unsafe as the thin wires I'm running 5A or more down, as well as being a complete PITA. Yet I can't really afford better gear.

So I decided a long time ago, that unless I was living paycheque to paycheque with no savings or future, I would buy proper gear. There is a difference in learning and in using with good equipment vs bad, even if all you want to do is learn. If that's the case, then once you've learned what you need, you can resell the kit for a good fraction of what you bought it for, so even if you don't want it after all you're not out much.

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 23:04:58 »
I really appreciate the time and thought that go into these kits. Thanks, mkawa.
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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 23:12:49 »
I don't understand why anyone buys anything without a potential upgrade path in mind.

Whenever I shell out more than about $20, I know what I'm getting, how long I expect it to last, and what I'll do if I outgrow its capacity.

Some of the best advice I give to new computer purchasers who aren't sure if they should go for the cheap computer or the expensive one is: "have in mind how long you want to use this, and when you want to upgrade. If you want to keep it around for a while, then get a nicer one. If you want to get a new one every 2 years, get a cheap one." This has proven helpful time and again.

Some of those cheap irons and cheap tools are great if you only need to use them once. If you plan to keep them around for a while or learn how to solder properly you need to get better kit. It's like learning Piano: You can learn on a cheap $50 synth from the early 1990's, but unless it has weighted keys it's going to hold you back (and you arguably aren't learning how to play an actual piano at that point). If you want to learn to play piano but don't have room for one, get a nicer one with weighted keys and learn properly.

There's so many "workarounds' I have to do with my gear, which some parts are aging and completely terrible. My drill is a cordless makita with no batteries, so I have direct wired it and power it from my benchtop PSU. Since said PSU is unregulated and said drill requires a lot of current, I need to hold down the trigger and flip the power switch on the PSU to turn the drill on and off. This is almost as unsafe as the thin wires I'm running 5A or more down, as well as being a complete PITA. Yet I can't really afford better gear.

So I decided a long time ago, that unless I was living paycheque to paycheque with no savings or future, I would buy proper gear. There is a difference in learning and in using with good equipment vs bad, even if all you want to do is learn. If that's the case, then once you've learned what you need, you can resell the kit for a good fraction of what you bought it for, so even if you don't want it after all you're not out much.

God, I want to mail you one of my spare drills now.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 23:34:00 »
I don't understand why anyone buys anything without a potential upgrade path in mind.

Whenever I shell out more than about $20, I know what I'm getting, how long I expect it to last, and what I'll do if I outgrow its capacity.

Some of the best advice I give to new computer purchasers who aren't sure if they should go for the cheap computer or the expensive one is: "have in mind how long you want to use this, and when you want to upgrade. If you want to keep it around for a while, then get a nicer one. If you want to get a new one every 2 years, get a cheap one." This has proven helpful time and again.

Some of those cheap irons and cheap tools are great if you only need to use them once. If you plan to keep them around for a while or learn how to solder properly you need to get better kit. It's like learning Piano: You can learn on a cheap $50 synth from the early 1990's, but unless it has weighted keys it's going to hold you back (and you arguably aren't learning how to play an actual piano at that point). If you want to learn to play piano but don't have room for one, get a nicer one with weighted keys and learn properly.

There's so many "workarounds' I have to do with my gear, which some parts are aging and completely terrible. My drill is a cordless makita with no batteries, so I have direct wired it and power it from my benchtop PSU. Since said PSU is unregulated and said drill requires a lot of current, I need to hold down the trigger and flip the power switch on the PSU to turn the drill on and off. This is almost as unsafe as the thin wires I'm running 5A or more down, as well as being a complete PITA. Yet I can't really afford better gear.

So I decided a long time ago, that unless I was living paycheque to paycheque with no savings or future, I would buy proper gear. There is a difference in learning and in using with good equipment vs bad, even if all you want to do is learn. If that's the case, then once you've learned what you need, you can resell the kit for a good fraction of what you bought it for, so even if you don't want it after all you're not out much.

God, I want to mail you one of my spare drills now.

Same here, I broke out in a single tear. Just one, but it was really, really big.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 09:05:50 »
dorkvader's with me now. no more of this let's disassemble USB cables for hookup wire crap. :[

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Offline dakuzo

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 18:19:18 »
I'm currently on the fence with this kit, only cause I'm not sure how far I want to delve into this hobby. Also, I would have thrown 'Soldering Starter Kit' in the ring of potential names for this kit.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 21:07:56 »
I'm currently on the fence with this kit, only cause I'm not sure how far I want to delve into this hobby. Also, I would have thrown 'Soldering Starter Kit' in the ring of potential names for this kit.

If it turns out you don't like soldering, you can probably resell the kit in good condition for a significant fraction of the price.
dorkvader's with me now. no more of this let's disassemble USB cables for hookup wire crap. :[

That's another thing I used to do. Since I didn't have any hookup wire, I would save the cables from every keyboard I broke up for parts and I would collect broken USB cables that other people threw away. Then whenever I needed to hook something up, I would just cut the cable apart for the wire inside.

I think the most recent time I did this was with some front panel connector wire from a sunblade 1000 workstation. I used it to wire up some reed switches to an arduino.

It's okay though: I now have hookup wire. Both wire-wrap and larger size. 6 colours even. Having proper tools and parts is a wonderful thing.

Now I just need some heatshrink.
God, I want to mail you one of my spare drills now.
Same here, I broke out in a single tear. Just one, but it was really, really big.
Oh that's really nice of you both! I took apart the charger and I'm pretty sure it works, so I'll probably just replace the NiMH (or NiCD) cells in the batteries when I can scrape together some cash. So I should be good to go.
« Last Edit: Wed, 05 November 2014, 21:10:00 by dorkvader »

Offline kmiller8

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 21:09:53 »
This whole thread


Offline 3Love

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Re: [Massdrop] Learn to Solder kit
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 06 November 2014, 15:18:21 »
I love DIYer
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