In need of Guidance and right Path

[gunman]

Hello all, I am new to the forums. This looks like a wonderful place to share knowledge of keyboards, Hopefully I will be a long time member.

I was reading about gaming keyboard, and after weeks hours of researching on this forum, I narrowed it down to either cherry browns and cherry ML switches. (My choices are not written on stone, as you will soon read that I have no experience with mechanical switches and I am jut relying on recommendation made to others)

I have been viewer of geekhack for a long time and finally decided to jump in because I really need an external keyboard which I can carry to alot of different places ( lan party / tournaments / ps3 / etc). I am a gamer, I mostly play Starcraft and Warcraft3 - both these games require very high amount of key presses (200-400 keyclicks a minute).

I have never used a mechnical keyboard. I really hate the mushy membrane keyboards that is why I never used them in ages. I prefer laptop scissor keyboards because they feel soft and quick. I like to add that the mushy feeling of membrane keyboards makes me nauseated and I just want to throw up.

 
My research shows me that these are all good gaming switches:
Cherry ML
Cherry Mx Brown
Cherry Mx Black
Topre Realforce (membrane but still)

I am about to pull the trigger on G84-4100, are these better for gaming then the other technologies? do they require more or less force then others? Is their delay / response time better then others? What about their travel distance?

Thank you everyone in advance Hope I find the right keyboard/keyboards.

By the way I am from dubai, I will be mostly ordering from ebay. So If you find a ebay deal then please feel free to sent me a pm.

EDIT:

It really doesn't matter to me If it doesn't have Full NKRO, even 2 NKRO is enough for my requirements because unlike fps u don't need simultaneous key presses in RTS(Starcraft / Warcraft3). FPS players have certain keys pressed the entire time (strafejumping, etc), but for RTS you just have to press the keys quickly and let go and move on to doing something else instantly. In other words there will not be anytime where two keys will be pressed together.

[timw4mail]

Unfortunately, do to the highly tactile nature of keyboards, it is hard to make a recommendation for someone else.

If you want tactile feedback, the Cherry Brown (Or White, for more resistance) or buckling springs is what I would recommend.

If you don't want feedback, get the Cherry Black switches.

Depending on how much force you generally use when typing is an important factor to what keyswitch you may want to use.

Heavier typists might prefer the buckling spring keyboards, which offer more resistance than most Cherry switches. Alternatively, heavy typists might also like the white Cherry switches.

Lighter typists are more fond of the Cherry brown and Topre switches. For such quick succession, I'd recommend the Cherry switches over the Topre, simply because a switch springs back faster than a dome (Not that I've had any experience with Topre).

The Cherry ML are probably similar to what you are used to, but I've never heard too much about them, other than they are about half the profile of the MX switches.

[ch_123]

I am about to pull the trigger on G84-4100, are these better for gaming then the other technologies? do they require more or less force then others? Is their delay / response time better then others? What about their travel distance

From what I've read about them. they're low profile switches - they're kinda like laptop keyboards, except obviously more solid. If you do a search on either the G84-4100 or Cherry MLs you'll see some threads where both are discussed in detail. A few people around here have them and as far as I know they liked them.

[gunman]

Unfortunately, do to the highly tactile nature of keyboards, it is hard to make a recommendation for someone else.

If you want tactile feedback, the Cherry Brown (Or White, for more resistance) or buckling springs is what I would recommend.

If you don't want feedback, get the Cherry Black switches.

Depending on how much force you generally use when typing is an important factor to what keyswitch you may want to use.

Heavier typists might prefer the buckling spring keyboards, which offer more resistance than most Cherry switches. Alternatively, heavy typists might also like the white Cherry switches.

Lighter typists are more fond of the Cherry brown and Topre switches. For such quick succession, I'd recommend the Cherry switches over the Topre, simply because a switch springs back faster than a dome (Not that I've had any experience with Topre).

The Cherry ML are probably similar to what you are used to, but I've never heard too much about them, other than they are about half the profile of the MX switches.

Thank you for the advice dear , really appreciate the descriptions of the switches.

I forgot to mention that I have a budget limit of $100, but as it is my 1st real keyboard I would like to feel the water rather then dive deep in, in other words cheaper will make me happier.

[gunman]

From what I've read about them. they're low profile switches - they're kinda like laptop keyboards, except obviously more solid. If you do a search on either the G84-4100 or Cherry MLs you'll see some threads where both are discussed in detail. A few people around here have them and as far as I know they liked them.

I read mixed review. some people call them soft while others calls them stiff. I am confused how can them be soft/light while being stiff at the same time?

[lowpoly]

Cherry MLs want to be hit @ center. Press them at a corner and they may not go down. This may be related to wear-in, some boards seem to be worse than others.

Also, check your specific roll over requirements with Cherry boards.

[lowpoly]

The Raptor Gaming K1 would be Cherry's gamer board. It doesn't seem to get much love here. Why is that? Price?

[gunman]

It really doesn't matter to me If it doesn't have Full NKRO, even 2 NKRO is enough for my requirements because unlike fps u don't need simultaneous key presses in RTS(Starcraft / Warcraft3). FPS players have certain keys pressed the entire time (strafejumping, etc), but for RTS you just have to press the keys quickly and let go and move on to doing something else instantly. In other words there will not be anytime where two keys will be pressed together.

[gunman]

Well, the best gaming board would have 6-key rollover but unfortunately nobody seems to ship one for less than $100. (except the Filco Zero and in Dubai you're going to pay lots for shipping).

Is the iRocks 6820 available from retailers near you??

Show Image

Nop, The market over here is filled with cheap chines membrane (rubber dome?) keyboards. Logitech and Microsoft is the only keyboards thought of as high-end.

My only option is Ebay, or anyone who accepts paypal. I found a good deal on a NIB G84-4100 for $50 shipped, still thinking of getting something else If If you guys/gals recommend something else.

[ch_123]

It really doesn't matter to me If it doesn't have Full NKRO, even 2 NKRO is enough for my requirements because unlike fps u don't need simultaneous key presses in RTS(Starcraft / Warcraft3). FPS players have certain keys pressed the entire time (strafejumping, etc), but for RTS you just have to press the keys quickly and let go and move on to doing something else instantly. In other words there will not be anytime where two keys will be pressed together.

Most so-called "gaming" keyboards are optimized towards FPS games. If you are using it for RTSs, just about any mechanical keyboard will do you, which means that you could consider some common mechanical keyboards like the Model M or the Dell AT101W. Unless of course you have a preference for short-travel switches...

EDIT: Here's what looks like a good Model M from a reputable seller, it has $50 shipping to Dubai

Link

[1cewolf]

Most so-called "gaming" keyboards are optimized towards FPS games. If you are using it for RTSs, just about any mechanical keyboard will do you, which means that you could consider some common mechanical keyboards like the Model M or the Dell AT101W. Unless of course you have a preference for short-travel switches...

EDIT: Here's what looks like a good Model M from a reputable seller, it has $50 shipping to Dubai

Link

I use my Dell AT101W for FPS gaming and it works really well. There have been only a handful of times when it's blocked on me. I'm left handed, though, so I keep my right hand on the pl;' instead of WASD. Don't know if that really makes a difference or not.

It doesn't have as much tactile feedback as I'd like, but that's another story.

[gunman]

Most so-called "gaming" keyboards are optimized towards FPS games. If you are using it for RTSs, just about any mechanical keyboard will do you, which means that you could consider some common mechanical keyboards like the Model M or the Dell AT101W. Unless of course you have a preference for short-travel switches...

EDIT: Here's what looks like a good Model M from a reputable seller, it has $50 shipping to Dubai

Link

Thanks for the advice
But from what I have read Model M require quite a force to be pressed, because of buckling spring technology, this will make me tired after few hours I think. I have also read they are loud.

can anyone please tell me what tactile means, or feels like, sorry to sound stupid, But I have no experience and would like to know that is it a good or a bad thing for my situtation.

[keyb_gr]

A number of folks round here seem to be using Model Ms for gaming and doing fine; but yes, they are on the heavier side of things.

If you have a lot of repeated keypresses on the same keys, then usually a switch with a linear characteristic does best since you can toggle between "active" and "not active" with very little finger movement (they usually have very little hysteresis). This is why MX black switches are so popular for gaming, though black Alps also seem to be doing decently well.

Linear switches have force linearly increasing with travel. They will activate at some point.

Tactile switches increase in force up to some peak and then drop off, which usually coincides with contact being made. Usually they have some hysteresis as well, which means that force will remain lower until the key is back up.

About the worst for the kind of scenario are the clicky Acer mechanics modules found in some Acer boards. Loads of hysteresis, makes you feel like you have real heavy fingers.

[Manyak]

gunman, if you want to order from places other than ebay you can sign up for Aramex Shop-n-Ship. They give you an address in New York to send things to, and anything that gets shipped there automatically gets shipped to you in Dubai.

[gunman]

gunman, if you want to order from places other than ebay you can sign up for Aramex Shop-n-Ship. They give you an address in New York to send things to, and anything that gets shipped there automatically gets shipped to you in Dubai.

Thanks for the info Manyak, but the sign up cost is a little too high. are you by any chance from dubai aswell?

I see that you have Cherry ML (4100), and Cherry browns (compaq/ IRock) and black apls (Dell). Which out of those do you think feels lighter / responsive.

So far I am leaning towards G84-4100 / Filco Tenkeyless / iRock 6230

[itlnstln]

Thanks for the info Manyak, but the sign up cost is a little too high. are you by any chance from dubai aswell?
 
I see that you have Cherry ML (4100), and Cherry browns (compaq/ IRock) and black apls (Dell). Which out of those do you think feels lighter / responsive.
 
So far I am leaning towards G84-4100 / Filco Tenkeyless / iRock 6230

Cherry browns, hands down.  The MLs are pretty stiff as well as the Alps in comparison to the browns (niether are as heavy as buckling springs, though).  For gaming, you will probably be most satisfied with the Cherry browns.  They are the least tactile in terms of button mashing, but they are certainly tactile enough for typing, especially when you have developed a nice, light touch.

[Manyak]

Thanks for the info Manyak, but the sign up cost is a little too high. are you by any chance from dubai aswell?

I see that you have Cherry ML (4100), and Cherry browns (compaq/ IRock) and black apls (Dell). Which out of those do you think feels lighter / responsive.

So far I am leaning towards G84-4100 / Filco Tenkeyless / iRock 6230

Nope, Beirut (but I live in NY).

Out of the three switches the Browns are definitely the lightest. I don't like the black alps that much because the tactile bump is barely noticeable, it almost feels linear to me.

And IMO the G84 ML board isn't a good board for regular use because the key spacing is smaller than usual. I only have it because I take it around with my work (IT Admin/Tech). But the switches themselves are pretty nice, they basically feel like cherry Browns with the first half of travel cut off (the tactile bump is at the very top not halfway down) but much stiffer overall.

[gunman]

It looks like I will be taking my chances with either the filco or irock 6230. Hopefully Once I get my hands on them I will write a review with pictures , and how Cherry Mx Brown fare against my laptop keyboard. (I really hate keyboard flex which for some reason is so widespread among all laptop manufacturers)

Now I have wait for one to either pop on the classified section or wait for it to appear on ebay. hoping to buy used to save money.

[gunman]

There is someone by the name of Unimatrix01 who is selling a used at $90 without shipping, but he has 0 previous posts so I am reluctant , and anyways the price he is selling it isn't cheap either, it is $115 shipped brand new from elitekeyboards.com

[Rajagra]

Nonstandard key spacing?  That would be a killer for me.  Bad enough transitioning back and forth to laptops.

Most keyboards have keys 19mm apart. The ML4100 has them 18mm apart. You don't notice it at first, but if you do spend some time typing you notice your fingers rubbing together. At least I do, I have big hands.

The key feel is better than any gaming keyboards I've tried (Logitech G15, Saitek Eclipse, the usual poor rubber dome "gaming" spec.)

The ML's keys feel a bit like scissor switches but with more travel. Enough that you don't have to bottom out the switches, unlike scissors.

I think they are great little keyboards for all round use.
Next time I do some gaming I will probably use one. Should work great with the mouse so near on the right, my N52 on the left, and my numpad above should I need those keys.

[gunman]

I thought that Das III Pro has cherry blue switches, but according to the picture on this website it is cherry brown? I am confused. The prices seems very good for me as it is only $70 excluding shipping.

http://www.aijoarashop.com/FrontStore/iGoodsView.phtml?iCategoryId=&iGoodsId=0008_00028

Can anyone tell me if they are mistaken, or DasIII comes in both blue and brown MX switches.

[gunman]

Those silly Koreans.  No, definitely Blue Cherry.  I had one once. (well twice, but it's a long story....)

Can you please briefly elaborate , so I don't repeat the same mistakes.

[Rajagra]

I blame the Brits for our Imperial system.

And I blame the French for making the standard unit of mass the KILOgram. What a balls up!

They should rename it the Kram or something so we have a consistent sytem of units.

Back on topic the DAS III definitly uses blue cherries, it has a loud click.

[gunman]

Any more inputs with people who have experience with the boards and the games I mentioned

I really am eager to try out cherry browns.

[ch_123]

I once played a good bit of Warcraft 3 and AOE2 on a Model M. I'd actually argue that a stiffer board would be better for strategy games. Because you're not typing fast or mashing a lot of buttons together, you're not going to tire your hands out that easily. Buckling springs are stiff, but they're not as if you need to be a weightlifter to operate one for extended periods of time. I know that if I were pressing hotkeys for different things in an RTS, I'd want a good bit of feedback, and enough stiffness to prevent me hitting down more than one key by mistake. In contrast, Brown Cherrys are very light, and until you get used to them, you (supposedly, I've never used one myself, just going on a general consensus) may think that it has no tactility whatsoever. It's more of a fast typist's board. For what you want, I'd really think you'd be better off with buckling springs or Black Cherry switches (which are just as stiff as the BS, except less pleasant for regular typing). If low force is an absolute most, Blue Cherrys would be a reasonably good compromise. If noise is your main concern, the Black Cherrys would be the best.

[gunman]

How long does it take for a Filco Cherry Mx brown keys to show on the classified section ?

[ch_123]

They show up every now and then. Generally someone buys one, realizes that they don't like the Browns and then try and get rid of it. Usually they sell for high enough prices.

[timw4mail]

I'm waiting for everyone to realize that the following keyboards are compete hunks of junk:

Japanese M Mini
Matching Numpad
NeXt Keyboard (I want the keys, will throw the keyboard away)
Anything with Blue Cherries
Almost anything with Brown Cherries
EVERYTHING with Buckling Springs

Will take off your hands without a recycling fee.  We can negotiate shipping.

Stop with the reverse psychology, it's not going to end well.

[ch_123]

I'm waiting for everyone to realize that the following keyboards are compete hunks of junk:

Japanese M Mini
Matching Numpad
NeXt Keyboard (I want the keys, will throw the keyboard away)
Anything with Blue Cherries
Almost anything with Brown Cherries
EVERYTHING with Buckling Springs

Will take off your hands without a recycling fee.  We can negotiate shipping.

If you ever find a 3278 keyboard I will gladly swim across the Atlantic to take it off you =P

[gunman]

I need your help guys, I am getting a NIB I-Rock 6230 for $95 shipped (shipping cost alone is between 20-30). should I get it or wait for a used Filco Cherry Browns, for some reasons you guys love Filco and I don't want to be left out. Brand New Filco is too expensive for me. By the way I am also getting NIB g84-4100 for $40 shipped is that a good deal, unfortunately it has windows key, meaning smaller space bar.

[itlnstln]

I need your help guys, I am getting a NIB I-Rock 6230 for $95 shipped (shipping cost alone is between 20-30). should I get it or wait for a used Filco Cherry Browns, for some reasons you guys love Filco and I don't want to be left out. Brand New Filco is too expensive for me. By the way I am also getting NIB g84-4100 for $40 shipped is that a good deal, unfortunately it has windows key, meaning smaller space bar.

I don't think you will have any problems with the i-Rocks.  The only real difference is the layout, but it sounds like the layout is not much of a problem for you.  If the ? and Right Shift weren't swapped around on it, I would be all over the i-Rocks, personally.
 
$40 sounds like a little much for a 4100.  You might want to search for an ML-4100 (as opposed to the G84-4100).  Most members that have bought one usually find it for around $20.

[ch_123]

I need your help guys, I am getting a NIB I-Rock 6230 for $95 shipped (shipping cost alone is between 20-30). should I get it or wait for a used Filco Cherry Browns, for some reasons you guys love Filco and I don't want to be left out.

You have to remember that the i-Rocks is a new product. Before it came out, the Filco was pretty much the only choice people had when it came to a new keyboard with brown Cherry switches. Also people liked how compact it was, but the iRocks is about the same size. Filcos are considered to be quite well built, but nobody has had any issues with the iRocks yet, so you don't have much to worry about.

The other big deal with the Filcos were the ones with the blue Cherry switches. Before they came out, the choice for keyboards with blue Cherry switches was the Scorpious M10 or the Das Keyboard, both of which have reliability and build quality issues.

[gunman]

You have to remember that the i-Rocks is a new product. Before it came out, the Filco was pretty much the only choice people had when it came to a new keyboard with brown Cherry switches. Also people liked how compact it was, but the iRocks is about the same size. Filcos are considered to be quite well built, but nobody has had any issues with the iRocks yet, so you don't have much to worry about.

The other big deal with the Filcos were the ones with the blue Cherry switches. Before they came out, the choice for keyboards with blue Cherry switches was the Scorpious M10 or the Das Keyboard, both of which have reliability and build quality issues.

Thank you Ch_123 and itlnstln, I think i will go with the  I-Rock 6230 for now. I expect it to arrive in 2 weeks and I will be writing a review shortly after. My keyboard journey has just began, wish me well guys .

[itlnstln]

OT: Everytime I read the title to this thread, I think it's a thread on religious experiences.  I guess, in a way, keyboards are the religion around here.
 
That's scary.  I need a new hobby.

[gunman]

OT: Everytime I read the title to this thread, I think it's a thread on religious experiences.  I guess, in a way, keyboards are the religion around here.
 
That's scary.  I need a new hobby.

ROFL :-) you know you in too deep when you read something like that.

[timw4mail]

You have to remember that the i-Rocks is a new product. Before it came out, the Filco was pretty much the only choice people had when it came to a new keyboard with brown Cherry switches. Also people liked how compact it was, but the iRocks is about the same size. Filcos are considered to be quite well built, but nobody has had any issues with the iRocks yet, so you don't have much to worry about.

The other big deal with the Filcos were the ones with the blue Cherry switches. Before they came out, the choice for keyboards with blue Cherry switches was the Scorpious M10 or the Das Keyboard, both of which have reliability and build quality issues.

I don't know...my Scorpius works perfectly fine...the matrix isn't great, but it works fine for typing.

[itlnstln]

The newer M10s seem to be doing fine. A year or so ago, a few members bought the M10, and they were having problems with some solder points breaking. It sounds like they upped the budget for QA at Qtronix/iOne.
 
Wow, I just realized I have been around here for over a year.  I, obviously, have a pretty boring, easy job.

[keyb_gr]

Wow, I just realized I have been around here for over a year.  I, obviously, have a pretty boring, easy job.

The year isn't the part I would worry about - it's the 2879 posts...

Looks like Geekhack is something that a number of people had been waiting for. The Asian keyboard geeks still are many years ahead but we're catching up pretty fast.

[itlnstln]

The year isn't the part I would worry about - it's the 2879 posts...

Well, seeing that I have been a member at ArsTechnica since 2002 (my single longest current forum membership) and only have about 125 posts, I would say you're right.
 
I have posted more here in about a year than I have in all of the forums I have been a part of combined.  That's about 15+ years of forum posting if you're keeping score.
 
GH brings out the worst, er... best in me.

[ch_123]

I, obviously, have a pretty boring, easy job.

You say this almost as if it's a bad thing...

[itlnstln]

You say this almost as if it's a bad thing...

You're right.  I mean, I do get bored at work, because I am pretty good at what I do, so nothing that comes up is particularly challenging, but it does make the day drag.  On the other hand, I can hang out here all day and make completely pointless, off-topic posts derailing otherwise valuable threads.
 
I also get paid pretty well.  I should stop complaining.

[Rajagra]

On the other hand, I can hang out here all day and make completely pointless, off-topic posts derailing otherwise valuable threads.

Ah, so you're honing your skills for a management position! :biggrin:

[itlnstln]

Ah, so you're honing your skills for a management position! :biggrin:

Exactly.