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Offline adamrice

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 15:17:12 »
I recently bought a new iMac, which came with one of Apple's current super-flat aluminum keyboards. These are laptop-style, with scissor mechanisms.

I've been using a Filco w/ brown switches, and before that a Datadesk (which is really my reference keyboard) with Alps switches (I think). Something like this, with limited travel and flat keycaps, should be anathema to members of this board, but I decided to give it a shot.

I've been typing on it for the past few days, although not working intensively on it. Some initial reactions:

1. It's quiet. Really quiet. The space bar makes a little shushing noise, other than that it's barely audible. My wife, who shares a home office with me, likes that.

2. My typing speed is good—especially considering how unaccustomed this keyboard is—and my error rate is no worse than usual.

3. There's a surprisingly strong spring on these keys. I suspect the resistance curve would show a spike shortly after onset. You can really feel the key pushing back after it bottoms out.

4. The aesthetics are, IMO, excellent. The general look of the keyboard is great, and one nice touch not seen on all keyboards is that left-hand mod keys are printed left-justified, and right keys printed right-justified (all other keys have centered printing). This is no reason to use a keyboard (otherwise I wouldn't still use that fugly Datadesk) but it's nice.

I'm not saying run right out and buy one, but I would say that if you happen to wind up with one, give it a shot.
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Offline Viett

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 15:24:27 »
I can't stand chiclet keyboards... pressing keys off center is a nightmare. Since the keys are not sculpted, this is very easy to do.

I've tried Apple's chiclet keyboard on the MacBook Pro and it's simply awful. Most of those pros you mentioned are true for most Scissor-switch keyboards, too (fast typing speed, quiet, tactile).

Oh... and not to mention the fact that a hacker can potentially remotely install key-loggers in your keyboard's firmware. Big whoops for Apple.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
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Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:07:34 »
Quote from: Viett;106242
I can't stand chiclet keyboards... pressing keys off center is a nightmare. Since the keys are not sculpted, this is very easy to do.

I've tried Apple's chiclet keyboard on the MacBook Pro and it's simply awful. Most of those pros you mentioned are true for most Scissor-switch keyboards, too (fast typing speed, quiet, tactile).

Oh... and not to mention the fact that a hacker can potentially remotely install key-loggers in your keyboard's firmware. Big whoops for Apple.


The MacBook Pro keyboard and the MacBook keyboard, and the wired aluminum keyboard all feel different. You can't act as though they are the same.
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Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline Viett

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:15:50 »
Both the MacBook Pro and the Aluminum keyboard have chiclet keys, and that is my main criticism. I highly doubt the key caps of one chiclet board is any different than the other.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:19:18 »
Quote from: Viett;106283
Both the MacBook Pro and the Aluminum keyboard have chiclet keys, and that is my main criticism. I highly doubt the key caps of one chiclet board is any different than the other.


They do not have chiclet keys, they have flat square keys. Chiclet keys are key and membrane the same thing. The MacBook Pro ones actually have some contour, don't they?
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline Viett

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:28:38 »
I'm talking about the more modern (loose) definition of chiclet keyboards:

Quote
In recent years there was something of a resurgence of a chiclet, with the release of several popular low-profile, low-travel keyboards that superficially resemble it. These keyboards, most notably several Sony and Apple laptop ones, and current generation of Apple keyboard, Oklick 555S or just-announced ASUS Eee Keyboard on the desktop front, have somewhat smaller, flat, squarish keys that are separated from each other by some space on the baseplate they protrude from -- a features common for the old chiclet keyboards. They are not true chiclets, however, as they are not using the rubber membrane or directly moulded hard keytops as the keys themselves, and are built using well-established modern technology for low-profile keyboards. Most of them utilise the common rubber dome construction, sometimes with scissor mechanism below each keycap, giving it much better tactile response and solid feel.


(Wikipedia)

Pretty much square, unsculpted keys, most commonly on scissor-switches.

MacBook Pro:


Apple Aluminum Keyboard:
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:31:41 by Viett »
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:20:42 »
That's not the MacBook Pro, that's just an aluminum MacBook.
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Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
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Offline Viett

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:25:50 »
My friend owns one. That's definitely a MacBook Pro.



Source

It seems older MacBook Pros don't have the chiclet keys, but I was referring to one of the newer ones.
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:28:01 by Viett »
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:28:36 »
Last I knew, the MacBook Pros still had the silver keys, which did have some contour. If not, those slightly older models is what I was referring to.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 22:10:47 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106302
Last I knew, the MacBook Pros still had the silver keys, which did have some contour. If not, those slightly older models is what I was referring to.


Chicklet keys are now the norm on all MacBook. While I like the white MacBook keyboard a lot, the external chicklet keyboard is plain awful. It may looks similar, but the feel is totally different.

Offline Hak Foo

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 01:16:47 »
Today, my PC at work (with 1391401) was out of commission, so I had to work on an older MacBook Pro.  It was awkward both for the lack of key travel and click, and because they had a 5cm border on each side of the keyboard (17" but no numpad), and no way to get editing keys (page up!) - no dedicated key, and the standard fn-arrows failed.

Mental note:  Order a USB Customizer for the office's spares
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Offline cmr

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 08:33:02 »
worst keyboard ever made

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 08:45:11 »
Quote from: cmr;106807
worst keyboard ever made


Okay...and you're basing that on?
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline itlnstln

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 09:04:05 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106811
Okay...and you're basing that on?

Perhaps the same criteria that led to this post: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=103769&postcount=2


Offline DrunkenDonut

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 09:07:13 »
My friend also has the super slim aluminum keyboard. I had a chance to try it out a little and found it to be okay. It a lot better than the really crap rubber dome nearly linear type of slim laptop-style keyboards. I do find it hard to type on than my older MacBook Pro though (the one with the silver sculpted keys).

At the office I'm used to switching keyboards a lot. I have two Filcos I normally type on (Brown and Black), and various laptops. The Filcos are nice, of course, but you just get used to the feel of the laptops and it's not so bad. Often it's not as bad as we make it sound. :) I've had much worse full sized keyboards pass through here than bad laptop keyboards.

[edit]Oh, forgot to add.. I find that flat keyboards are easier to use when you have proper posture and the keyboard is actually flat on the surface (but could be raised, or not) rather than tilted at an angle. For full keyboards it's a toss up. I'm pretty comfortable with tilted or flat but they often have contours of their own, so I don't need the tilt.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 August 2009, 09:14:09 by DrunkenDonut »
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Offline itlnstln

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 09:11:52 »
As far as rubber domes go, I generally like scissor switches better as they tend to have better tactility.  I will say; however, that having scissor switches does not make it a good 'board.  I like the keyboard in my laptop (Dell Lat. D620) as the switches are pretty nice, and the iRocks evaluation keyboard I have is nice, too, but neither can come close to comparing to a mechanical keyboard of almost any variety.


Offline cmr

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 09:48:16 »
it's the worst keyboard ever made because it's overpriced, it's too low to the desk, the key action and travel is literally painful to type on, the keys have rounded edges so your fingers get lost, it (now) has no number pad, it represents a trend of scissor keyboards washing up on desktops, and it suffers from a hilarious vulnerability whereby an attacker can install a keylogger on the board itself.

Offline itlnstln

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 10:18:32 »
Quote from: cmr;106832
it's the worst keyboard ever made because it's overpriced, it's too low to the desk, the key action and travel is literally painful to type on, the keys have rounded edges so your fingers get lost, it (now) has no number pad, it represents a trend of scissor keyboards washing up on desktops, and it suffers from a hilarious vulnerability whereby an attacker can install a keylogger on the board itself.

And there you have it.


Offline Ulysses31

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 11:56:19 »
I hate these keyboards and all their brethren.  Cheap, light-weight feeling to the keys, as though they are made from construction paper, wobble and a tiring sudden stop when the key bottoms out.  To be fair these are problems shared by most laptop keyboards; I just feel glad that I still use a "real" computer with functional and comfortable hardware for my serious work, and not something designed to be a fashion-statement.

Offline DrunkenDonut

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 04 August 2009, 20:47:35 »
Due to the space saving nature of the things (ultra thin, etc.) the physical construction suffers and you can never have one completely stiff in a notebook. Just about all notebooks I've used have some sort of keyboard flex issue. Some are worse than others, but generally they're fine when new and start doing strange things as they age. I've seen some Sony keyboards start warping and lifting, some Dells will start be more flexy, etc.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 05 August 2009, 08:24:49 »
I've used those keyboards before and they are perfectly fine. However, I do like my mechanical model M5-2 much better.
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Offline justin

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 23:24:00 »
The Apple Aluminum Keyboard is a decent case study for the subject of style vs. design. Style refers to the look of the item, while design refers to the actual construction and engineering.

Apple's latest Aluminum Keyboards are truly awesome... in style. What they lack is truly great design. They are not designed to last (well, the cases are, just not the keys). They are not designed to easily facilitate touch typing (a huge shortcoming). They will look great on your desk, and they will keep others happy, as they make almost no noise whatsoever. I think they aren't bad from an ergonomic perspective either, as the flat design and soft keys actually seem quite easy on the hands. They do seem to encourage finger wandering, since the keys are so flat, which makes it fairly hard to keep your hands in the right spot.

So, compared to most keyboards of today, the Apple Keyboard is actually pretty awesome. The thing is, we aren't looking for something that is awesome when compared to a bunch of mediocre junk. We are looking for a keyboard that is just plain awesome. Flat, beautiful, white, Aluminum keyboard with Cherry switches, anyone? Sadly, I doubt this magical keyboard will ever exist.

Offline lecorsair

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 23:31:01 »
Quote from: justin;110500
The Apple Aluminum Keyboard is a decent case study for the subject of style vs. design.

Apple's latest Aluminum Keyboards are truly awesome... in style. What they lack is truly great design....

So, compared to most keyboards of today, the Apple Keyboard is actually pretty awesome. The thing is, we aren't looking for something that is awesome when compared to a bunch of mediocre junk. We are looking for a keyboard that is just plain awesome. Flat, beautiful, white, Aluminum keyboard with Cherry switches, anyone? Sadly, I doubt this magical keyboard will ever exist.


Amen! I purchased one the day it came out and promptly returned it. Simplicity of industrial design was truly alluring, but that's it. Great keyboard for the hunt and peck types, but terrible for extended typing. Just not enough tactile feedback causing harder than needed key presses.

Offline justin

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 23:52:39 »
You know, I suspect Apple actually created this keyboard to do just what it does. It is alluring to the novice computer user who is, let's face it, the average person. He doesn't know how to touch type, he may not even know what the term means. He buys on impulse, basing his decision on how the product looks to him, and will likely never even miss the superior quality of design that comes from using a well-engineered device.

What's frustrating lately in the computer industry is this issue of who the companies are designing for. In the camera industry, we have companies like Canon and Nikon. They forge their reputations not with the cheap garbage cameras they sell to consumers, but with the finely crafted artisan tools they design for the demanding professional. What we have today are companies with no real high end products, that survive merely by leaching off of the unsuspecting masses. Microsoft has gone so far as to openly admit that this is what they do. Apple has typically had a high end, and indeed still does to some extent with their top-end Mac & MacBook Pros (arguably over priced, but of an undeniably high quality), but with the "lesser" devices they, like most tech companies today, merely manufacture "pretty" stuff that will be eaten up by the masses, but which is of no real value to the seriously demanding professional. Back in the day, Apple made the Apple Extended Keyboard II. It, like it's predecessor the original Extended Keyboard, did not actually come with any Macs! They existed solely for the serious people, the people who appreciated real quality. They had Alps mechanical key switches, they were sweetly clicky, and had the famous solid build quality that keyboards the likes of the Model M are known for. They originally sold for $163.00 each. (The Model M sold for $250.00 brand new back in the day) Apple no longer makes any devices like this. It's too bad. It would do them some good.

Offline ch_123

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 06:28:18 »
I noticed these keyboards have a 'Delete' button where the backspace should be. Is it a real delete, or is Apple just trying to be cool?

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 06:33:21 »
Quote from: ch_123;110532
I noticed these keyboards have a 'Delete' button where the backspace should be. Is it a real delete, or is Apple just trying to be cool?

Apple has always had backspace and delete serve the same function.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
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Offline ch_123

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 11:09:54 »
What strange machines... Emacs must be fun to run under Mac OS.

Offline rdh

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 12:11:40 »
Quote from: timw4mail;110534
Apple has always had backspace and delete serve the same function.


Not sure what you mean by that.  

Most of what differs between a PC and an Apple keyboard is just what's printed on the key caps.



Where the PC keyboard's keycap says "Back Space", Apple's says "Delete".
Where the PC says "Delete" in the edit cluster, Apple has "Del" or a symbol.

They're still separate keys with separate behaviors; the printing on the cap is the only difference.

The PC's "Enter" key (in the main keyboard section) is labelled "Return" on an Apple board.

The only two significant differences in layout between an Apple keyboard and PC keyboard I can see are:
  • the Opt and Apple keys are swapped in position from the Alt and Windows keys (but behave the same)
  • the PC "Menu" key has no equivalent.   (I never use it in Windows, either.)

That is, not much.
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Offline cmr

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 14:39:14 »
Quote from: timw4mail;110534
Apple has always had backspace and delete serve the same function.


this explains why the OS X terminal is so unusable

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 14:43:47 »
Quote from: cmr;110659
this explains why the OS X terminal is so unusable

How so?
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline cmr

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 14:48:44 »
whenever I am stuck SSHing into one of my linux servers from some random mac, the arrow keys and pgup/pgdn work wrong, and home/end don't work at all. the backspace button deletes the wrong character, but at least it is also mislabeled ("delete") to reflect the malfunction.

i've noticed that after 10 years of struggling to get home/end working in OS X, apple finally gave up and just removed them from the keyboard in the newest revision.

i'm sure that if you type five or six shell commands a week and just compare it to the windows terminal, it's fine, but my god, if i had to use the OS X terminal to do my job, i would be fired within a week.

Offline spremino

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 29 August 2009, 11:46:19 »
I have a similar keyboard on my EeePC 1000HE netbook.

I really like it. Yes, key travel is very short, but it is tactile therefore I don't bottom out with full force. I almost rest my fingers on the keys and just press them. I do prefer the flat keys, since I don't have to be very precise in positioning. I type way faster on it than on my Model M I use at work. Anyway I can't rest my fingers over the keys as I do with the Model M, therefore I don't know whether that makes it more tiring in the long run. I don't use it heavily, just to browse the web laid on my bed.
« Last Edit: Sat, 29 August 2009, 12:22:24 by spremino »
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 30 August 2009, 10:09:50 »
Quote from: spremino;112921
I have a similar keyboard on my EeePC 1000HE netbook.

I really like it. Yes, key travel is very short, but it is tactile therefore I don't bottom out with full force. I almost rest my fingers on the keys and just press them. I do prefer the flat keys, since I don't have to be very precise in positioning. I type way faster on it than on my Model M I use at work. Anyway I can't rest my fingers over the keys as I do with the Model M, therefore I don't know whether that makes it more tiring in the long run. I don't use it heavily, just to browse the web laid on my bed.

You know I hate the keyboard on the Eee 1000He, I find it too shallow, even compared to the MacBook/ Apple Aluminum keyboards.

It just isn't as responsive of a keyboard to me as the Apple Aluminum keyboards.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline molto

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 05:01:37 »
By the way, Cherry has released a new product that somewhat resembles the current Apple keyboards: Cherry STRAIT
So if you're a fashion victim, you might be able to enjoy superior quality now.
y8 | Miniclip | y3 | friv | ben10 | y8 | kizi | y8 | y3  | y8 | pogo

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 07:16:49 »
Quote from: molto;113285
By the way, Cherry has released a new product that somewhat resembles the current Apple keyboards: Cherry STRAIT
So if you're a fashion victim, you might be able to enjoy superior quality now.

How's that really any different? The Apple ones are high quality, although overpriced.

And I really don't like those upside-down L shaped enter keys.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline molto

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 07:20:23 »
Apple's keys suck (lack of tactile feedback, dead zones, spacing), and although I haven't tested them, I expect better ones from Cherry.
y8 | Miniclip | y3 | friv | ben10 | y8 | kizi | y8 | y3  | y8 | pogo

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 07:34:29 »
Quote from: molto;113297
Apple's keys suck (lack of tactile feedback, dead zones, spacing), and although I haven't tested them, I expect better ones from Cherry.

This newest scissor switch isn't too bad. From previous keyboards, I would agree, but the current boards aren't too bad to type on.

Considering the Cherry board is most likely also a scissor-switch, the only real difference would be the rubber domes used.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline huha

  • Posts: 388
Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 07:48:25 »
While I really don't like Cherry blindly following the rest of the industry as far as inherently crippled designs are concerned--which is why this keyboard will inevitably suck--their scissor switches are one of the better ones I've experienced. I used one of their scissor-switch keyboards for about a year of massive typing, much more than currently, and key feel is quite excellent for a scissor-switch. It feels different to the Thinkpad's keyboard, but not worse, just different. I'd rate both of them roughly on par in terms of typing feel.
For a cheap 15-Euro keyboard, I can only praise Cherry's Evolution Stream series; their scissor switches are quite nice to type on. They do have a serious problem with dirt, though, but that's a problem of practically every scissor switch.

Oh, and Apple's keyboards? Crappy as can be. They're stupidly expensive and they feel just absolutely horrible. European customers will also be pleased to suffer from stupid form-over-function design decisions when they'll find the Return key to be shrunk to a half-width design.



-huha
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 August 2009, 07:51:10 by huha »
Unicomp Endurapro 105 (blank keycaps, BS) // Cherry G80-3000LSCDE-2 (blues, modded to green MX) // Cherry G80-3000LAMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Cherry G80-11900LTMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Compaq G80-11801 (browns) // Epson Q203A (Fujitsu Peerless) // IBM Model M2 (BS) // Boscom AS400 Terminal Emulator (OEM\'d Unicomp, BS, 2x) // Dell AT102DW (black Alps) // Mechanical Touch (chinese BS) Acer 6312-KW (Acer mechanics on membrane) // Cherry G84-4100 (ML) // Cherry G80-1000HAD (NKRO, blacks)

Offline timw4mail

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 08:25:56 »
Well, feel is a matter of taste. I do agree that Apple's past keyboards have been horrible as far as rubber domes go.

Then again, I'm the fool who spent $50 on the full size Apple Aluminum. (This was before I was really into mechanical keyboards).
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline spremino

  • Posts: 362
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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 12:51:22 »
Quote from: huha;113304

Oh, and Apple's keyboards? Crappy as can be. They're stupidly expensive and they feel just absolutely horrible. European customers will also be pleased to suffer from stupid form-over-function design decisions when they'll find the Return key to be shrunk to a half-width design.
-huha


Right! As having a shrinked left shift was not enough. Been there already: the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 (European layout) shares this issue.

I always wonder why they designed a different key layout for European languages. Weren't AltGr and/or dead accents enough to get all needed characters?
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline hyperlinked

  • Posts: 924
Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 13:40:01 »
Quote from: timw4mail;113300
This newest scissor switch isn't too bad. From previous keyboards, I would agree, but the current boards aren't too bad to type on.


I've been praying for the continued good health of my 2006 Macbook Pro because I absolutely hated the keyboards on the recent Macbooks, but the keyboards on the mid-2009 Macbook Pro models are allowing me to breathe easier. I'm still not wild about the flat shape of the keys, but there's a much more responsive feel to them now.

I really wish they had stuck with the scissor switches they used in the last line of G4 Powerbooks.
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 15:09:35 »
Quick question for Adamrice: are you and ericrice brothers?
 
Just asking.


Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 15:32:16 »
Quote from: itlnstln;113454
Quick question for Adamrice: are you and ericrice brothers?
 
Just asking.


havent you ever heard of the rice brothers?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline shortround

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 21:13:36 »
That keyboard and the apple mouse went away quickly when I bought my mac.  I actually gave it a try for over a month, but it is what prompted me to start looking into mechanical keyboards.  After learning to type on old Selectrics back in school I just can't put up with the feel of these super-flat keys, but that's just my preference.  I sold mine to a friend and it has since broken on him somehow.

Offline molto

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Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 06:15:58 »
Quote from: huha;113304
They do have a serious problem with dirt, though, but that's a problem of practically every scissor switch.
Doesn't the chiclet-like construction prevent dirt from obstructing the switches?
y8 | Miniclip | y3 | friv | ben10 | y8 | kizi | y8 | y3  | y8 | pogo

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Apple keyboard: initial observations
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 07:54:28 »
Quote from: molto;113601
Doesn't the chiclet-like construction prevent dirt from obstructing the switches?

I could see how it might help, but I don't think it would completely stop dirt from getting in the switches.