Topre 45g - Will i grow to appreciate it?

[bamze]

I just got CM Novatouch which has 45g topre. I am not sure if i like it  .
I come from red and brown cherry and so far it feels kind of like going back to a dome keyboard. Anyone else had the same experience?
Will i eventually grow to appreciate it?
 

[Belfong]

Try it for 2 weeks before you decide. Topre need some getting used to.

[Hypersphere]

To me, the NT does not feel like a Topre board, although I like it better than Cherry mx. I use a Topre RF 87ub 55g most of the time; I like it much better than my NT. I use the NT mainly to get some use out of my Cherry keycaps.

The sound and feel of the NT can vary quite a lot depending on the keycaps. You might try different caps to see if this improves your impression of the board.

[strict]

Try it for 2 weeks before you decide. Topre need some getting used to.

+1

I liked my Realforce out of the box enough to keep using it but didn't really start to fall in love until I had used it for a little while. I kind of felt the same way the OP did, like "This is it?". After using it for a couple days at work I really started to appreciate the feel of Topre switches and have even debated unloading some of my Cherry gear I like it so much.

[Jumpjet]

I just got CM Novatouch which has 45g topre. I am not sure if i like it  .
I come from red and brown cherry and so far it feels kind of like going back to a dome keyboard. Anyone else had the same experience?
Will i eventually grow to appreciate it?

If you're running another board along side for comparison, then put it away and stick with the Nova on its own over Christmas. Topre switches are so different you need time to get a feel for them. I 'got it' as soon as I pressed a key, and moving between Cherrys and Topre, the Topre is my favourite feeling switch. It's not better though. My cherry Blue is still just as interesting to use, but the Topre feels more 'classic'. Someone has described the sensation as being akin to a piano key, and that's the analogy I'd use. There's a feeling of a mechanical pendulum action with the Topre.

Anyway, try to stick with it for a week longer and see how you get on.

[bamze]

That's a relief.  I will stick with it.
Do you guys bottom out on the topre? To me it seems impossible not to. Do you find the joy in bottoming out it?

[Jumpjet]

That's a relief.  I will stick with it.
Do you guys bottom out on the topre? To me it seems impossible not to. Do you find the joy in bottoming out it?

With the HiPro keys, there's little option but to bottom-out. And I'd urge you to assess the 'feel' of Topre on your own terms. For me, it's not the bottoming-out that I like, it's the way the key is catapulted back up again that I enjoy, and even then it's only really when I'm typing flat out that I get that feel. But ultimately it's just another bloody switch at the end of the day, not the 'Holy Grail' that some of it's resolute fans on here might have you believe. All mechanical switches have merit. Just enjoy it for what it is and if you don't like it, then you'll be able to sell it on easily for good money.

So there you go, the pressure is officially off! Sit back and make your own mind up ;-)

[monotagary]

That's a relief.  I will stick with it.
Do you guys bottom out on the topre? To me it seems impossible not to. Do you find the joy in bottoming out it?

Basically, listen to these guys, Topre will definitely grow on you the more you use it. I recently got a Realforce 87u 55g and I was pretty underwhelmed until I used it for a few days.

And I can definitely say that I love bottoming out on Topre. In fact I'm pretty sure they were designed to be bottomed out. 

[Hypersphere]

I've never understood the notion that one should not bottom out, as if this act were some kind of taboo. I suppose my having learned to type on a manual typewriter has ingrained an apparent necessity for bottoming out. If you didn't "bottom out" on a manual typewriter, the key would not leave its imprint on the paper. And if you were cutting a stencil for a mimeograph machine, you had to pound the keys with a real vengeance. In any event, I say if you wish to bottom out on your keyboard, do so, and do not be ashamed!

[bamze]

Oh, i am not ashamed. I am just used to just sliding my fingers on the red cherry. It takes almost no force to register the press, hence i can use it for hours with no fatigue.
In fact bottoming out the red cherry is very unpleasant, to me at least.

[awts]

I wish everyone had the chance with a 55G Topre... It's like "the" Topre to experience... 

[bamze]

I wish everyone had the chance with a 55G Topre... It's like "the" Topre to experience... 

Damn it man ! It sux that i have to buy everything abroad with no chance to try it. Not to mention the price.
For example a Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g is 215$ in US will cost me more than 300$ .

[Defect]

Takes some getting used to.  I started to like my 55g more and more.  But still prefer MX and ALPS

[jdcarpe]

If it were a HHKB, I would say yes, it just takes some getting used to. But I don't know about the Novatouch.

BTW, Topre switches are rubber domes. Over a capacitive PCB, not a membrane. That doesn't mean Topre keyboards are the same as a $10 keyboard.

To me, the HHKB is the only good reason to be using Topre. I'm not a fan of the Realforce, and I haven't yet tried a Novatouch.

[Jumpjet]

To me, the HHKB is the only good reason to be using Topre. I'm not a fan of the Realforce, and I haven't yet tried a Novatouch.

What's the difference?

[Hypersphere]

I just got CM Novatouch which has 45g topre. I am not sure if i like it  .
I come from red and brown cherry and so far it feels kind of like going back to a dome keyboard. Anyone else had the same experience?
Will i eventually grow to appreciate it?

People tend to be unsure about liking something if their expectations of the thing were not met on the first encounter. With this in mind, it could be helpful to ask yourself what you were expecting vs what you got. Comparing your expectations with what you found could help with either adjusting to the keyboard or knowing what to look for in a different keyboard.

Some people need a relatively long adjustment period. Others know within thirty seconds or so if the keyboard is for them.

[rowdy]

If you are using the stock keycaps, Novatouch will probably feel different to HHKB or RealForce.

It you swap them out for a good PBT set, the feeling might improve.

But Topre is Topre

[Sniping]

That's a relief.  I will stick with it.
Do you guys bottom out on the topre? To me it seems impossible not to. Do you find the joy in bottoming out it?

I think it's impossible to not bottom out because of the dome.

You should type in a way that feels natural to you. I don't really worry about bottoming out.

I played piano for a very long time and I always bottomed out on keyboards, so I feel more comfortable with bottoming out.

[Jersern]

You'll either grow to love it or find it too light! Either way they're very nice switches! If you're in Australia, you can participate in my HHKB tour so you can try out a 45g Topre board.

[Shayde]

I just got CM Novatouch which has 45g topre. I am not sure if i like it  .
I come from red and brown cherry and so far it feels kind of like going back to a dome keyboard. Anyone else had the same experience?
Will i eventually grow to appreciate it?

I'm in the same boat.  Only I've been using my Novatouch for nearly a month and it's not getting better.  I really don't get it.

[rowdy]

I just got CM Novatouch which has 45g topre. I am not sure if i like it  .
I come from red and brown cherry and so far it feels kind of like going back to a dome keyboard. Anyone else had the same experience?
Will i eventually grow to appreciate it?

I'm in the same boat.  Only I've been using my Novatouch for nearly a month and it's not getting better.  I really don't get it.

For some people Topre just is not the thing.

For others, Topre is ok, a viable option to MX.

And others absolutely love Thorpe to the exclusion of everything else.

So if you have persisted, but still don't feel that Topre is your thing, then perhaps consider shelving the keyboard for a month, use something else, and then try it again in a month's time.  If you still don't like it then, perhaps consider selling it.

[Polymer]

I just got CM Novatouch which has 45g topre. I am not sure if i like it  .
I come from red and brown cherry and so far it feels kind of like going back to a dome keyboard. Anyone else had the same experience?
Will i eventually grow to appreciate it?

I'm in the same boat.  Only I've been using my Novatouch for nearly a month and it's not getting better.  I really don't get it.

So after you've used it a month have you gone back to your cherry boards?  And then tried switching back and forth between the two or throwing a normal membrane keyboard in the mix?

If ultimately you prefer cherry, that's perfectly ok...Everyone is going to have different preferences so there is no point in trying to force the square peg into the round hole..if it doesn't work for you it doesn't. 

The important thing is giving it time so at least you know....A lot of people have bought and sold Topre in less than a day which I think is just silly..

[Shayde]

I did alternate with Cherry + ALPS boards, as I'm using the Novatouch at work, and various boards at home.  Not sure if that contributes or not.  But I can't shake the feeling that if you have something that takes a couple of weeks to get used to, that perhaps there's a degree of willing oneself to like it happening there.  But that's unlikely I suppose given the sheer number of people who have said "it took me a while, but now I don't like using anything else".

The main issues I have with it:

• The actuation point is lower than the tactile bump.  My fingers find that bizarre.
• The jar is annoying when the rubber cup collapses and my fingers free-fall to the metal plate.
• It feels a little unsophisticated as the action of pressing a key feels like precisely what it is: a rubber cup collapsing under pressure.
• The typing sound isn't very interesting - which is supposed to be one of the main selling points of Topre.  That is likely a Novatouch/keycap thing though.

Oh well, maybe I'll give rowdy's suggestion a try and put it aside for a while and come back to it.  Thanks for the suggestions.

[Jumpjet]

@polymer:' It's not just silly, it's hilarious!  )

[Polymer]

• The actuation point is lower than the tactile bump.  My fingers find that bizarre.

Not sure what you mean by this.  The actuation point for Cherry and Alps are lower than the tactile bump.

• The jar is annoying when the rubber cup collapses and my fingers free-fall to the metal plate.

It definitely feels different than cherry where the resistance increases as you get closer to the bottom..

Using it for awhile isn't so you force yourself to like it..it isn't anything like that..it is so you can actually give it a chance...I think a lot of people have taken awhile to enjoy Topre...at first they think it is just like any other rubber dome keyboard and in a lot of ways it is..but a lot of people, as they start using it more, will start to see the differences in just any regular keyboard..then you'll go back to Cherry or Alps or a regular rubber dome and the differences will be more pronounced.

I love Cherry and Alps and Topre...They're just different from each other.  After awhile I just decided that I enjoy Topre more for typing and Cherry for gaming...and Alps is just a break from other stuff and because to me it reminds me the most of old school..

[dustinhxc]

If you dont like it, get a Realforce 45g. They are the best, hands down. Ive traded all my boards and its my end game board.

[Khers]

.

[munch]

I wish everyone had the chance with a 55G Topre... It's like "the" Topre to experience... 

Damn it man ! It sux that i have to buy everything abroad with no chance to try it. Not to mention the price.
For example a Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g is 215$ in US will cost me more than 300$ .

where do you live?
I might have a 55g full-size topre board for sale, in europe ANSI layout though.

on topic though, I have had HHKBpro2, Realforce 45g, Realforce 55g, and tried a variable one for a while, and still don't like topres. the bottoming out is just too harsh for my fingers.

[Hypersphere]

IMO, the hybrid switches on the Novatouch are not representative of Topre. To me, the main selling point of the Novatouch is the fact that it will accept Cherry-compatible keycaps. Although I prefer the sound and feel of the Novatouch to any Cherry mx, if I want the "Topre experience", I use a HHKB Pro 2 or RF 87u. In particular, the feel of a Topre really shines in the 55g RF. Nevertheless, there are many choices among keyboards and keyboard switches. Nothing is perfect, but choose to use something that appeals to you.

Budget permitting, some people rotate among several keyboards for the sake of variety or because of changing tastes. In my own case, although I use my RF 87ub 55 most often, recently I have been using a KBP V60 Matias Quiet Click Mini keyboard; I like it well enough that I have been sourcing replacement keycaps from vintage Alps keyboards.

[strict]

For me, personally, I didn't find Topre to be such a revelation at first and wondered what the fuss was about. When switching back to Cherry MX though, I found them much worse than I remembered. I had grown accistomed to the buttery smooth feeling of Topre, and there sort of is no going back to Cherry for me now. I still have linear Cherries to try, but I rather like some tactility.

This is one of my biggest issues after having used my Topre for awhile ... I'm starting to dislike the scratchiness of my other Cherry switches, even more so since I lubed the sliders on my Realforce. I didn't think my Cherry switches felt scratchy while I was using them but after owning and using the Realforce for a couple days I tried to go back and use my Filco with heavily used MX clear stems but it felt so gritty.

I've gutted about 4 wyse terminals now and have close to 400 vintage black switches sitting in baggies sorted by their level of scratchiness. I have one bag of "keepers" that currently holds about 60 switches and these are the absolute smoothest Cherry MX switches I could find. They are truly light years smoother than any other Cherry switch I've ever used. This bag of vintage black keepers are the only Cherry switches that, to me, feel as smooth as my lubed Topre sliders.

[RoflCopter4]

Personally I'm not sure I understand the draw of being able to use Cherry keycaps on a Topre board. Topre boards already come with some of the best PBT caps around.

Anyway, I was definitely worried about getting a HHKB originally. I have mainly typed on a Model M keyboard lately, intermittently also typing on an AEK with orange Alps. The IBM has the heavier switches by far but the Alps are also reportedly around 60g. Needless to say I've become accustomed to the heavier keys, and though my wimpy fingers do sometimes get a little tired on the IBM I was worried about the Topre board feeling really light and wimpy. Well, I got it in the mail yesterday and... let's just say I have somewhat mixed feeling so far. I do love the feel of the keys. It reminds me of the AEK a bit but with a somehow smoother feel to them. The bump is a perhaps a little less obvious but it's definitely there and very pleasant, unlike some "tactile" boards I can think of COUGHCHERRYCOUGH. That said, I think my fears were correct. I find myself having tons of typos on this board so far. During typing this short comment I've had a typo on almost every other word. It's extremely irritating.

[Khers]

.

[Shayde]

• The actuation point is lower than the tactile bump.  My fingers find that bizarre.

Not sure what you mean by this.  The actuation point for Cherry and Alps are lower than the tactile bump.

Really?  I haven't noticed that before.  Maybe I notice it more on the Nova because of it's high tactility.  I'd check it against my other boards 'cept I'm not at home for a few days.

[Altis]

If you dont like it, get a Realforce 45g. They are the best, hands down. Ive traded all my boards and its my end game board.

Have you tried the Realforce 55g?

[bamze]

If you dont like it, get a Realforce 45g. They are the best, hands down. Ive traded all my boards and its my end game board.

Have you tried the Realforce 55g?

No i haven't. Not sure what kind the space bar is on the Novatouch but it feels nice. It is just about the only think i like about this keyboard.
I used it for about 3 weeks. I can't get used to it. On the last day i played some games on it and that was the end. My fingers were hurting. Switched to one of the cherry keyboards and i can't go back the Novatouch. I won't buy Realforce as it is going to be an expensive "try". Before having the Novatouch i was considering it, but not anymore.

[Novus]

No. Just stick to cherry MX

[opensecret]

I have a Realforce variable that I tried for several weeks.  I liked it, but didn’t fall in love with it.  For the moment, I’m back to my Corsair K95 with Cherry reds, a board that gets almost no love from the GH community, but works well for me.  I doubt we’ll live to see a board that everyone agrees is the holy grail – there’s too much personal preference involved.

[RoflCopter4]

No. Just stick to cherry MX

You're funny.

[snipars]

It's the Novatouch that's making you feel that,  especially if you're using the stock keycaps
If you were to use a hhkb I bet you that you'd be immediately surprised by how different it is,  maybe because of the case - mounted switches

[HalfSharkAlligator]

I'm just here to say that I think the analogy of Topre keys feeling a bit like piano keys is the best way I've ever heard it described.  That's exactly how they feel to me too.

[Heliosphere]

I just completed a landing pad silencing mod on my Novatouch and I like it A LOT more than the stock Novatouch. I felt that the Novatouch out of the box has too much key travel and has a nasty plastic 'tack' sound on the return. The landing pads combined with a nicer keycap set (I have the Pulse set on mine right now) alleviated almost all of the issues I had with it.

If you're willing to void your warranty and take apart the Novatouch, try out spicebar's silencing mod: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65821.msg1540860#msg1540860

The landing pads can be purchased from elitekeyboards. Opening the Novatouch is actually very tricky and I wasn't able to find a guide anywhere documenting all the details - I have to give kudos to CM for creating such a solid well-fitting case, but it's a real pain to take apart. If anyone needs some advice on opening their Novatouch, just PM me.

[Lunatique]

I'm just here to say that I think the analogy of Topre keys feeling a bit like piano keys is the best way I've ever heard it described.  That's exactly how they feel to me too.

Same here, and I actually play piano (as some of you who made the comment probably do too).

@Op - If 45g didn't do it for you, there is a chance the 55g will, since it is more tactile/snappy. But if it's not the desire for an increase in the tactility that's bothering you but the actual mechanism of the Topre switch itself, then having more tactility might not be enough.

I'm one of those people whose initial response to Topre was, "This is it? It's just like a more solid/smooth rubber dome!" It took a few weeks of alternating between a few different switch types to start to really understand why some people claim Topre is the king of all switches, and now I'm a convert too.

If I were to logically explain why someone like me, who is very logical and pragmatic (and even wrote a long rant here at GH about how Topre fanboys mislead people like us about how amazingly better the 55g is compared to the 45g), now thinks the 55g is my favorite switch, it would go something like this:

1) It is more tactile than any of Cherry MX switches. The tactility isn't just this rounded bump like on the Cherry switches. It's sharper and snappier, but not jarring--it's still very smooth. While there are switches that are more tactile than Topre 55g, they will be very noisy (buckling spring), or much more coarse (Matias/ALPS).

2) It is one of the most quiet switches that doesn't require you to do any silence mods or get the silenced version, and is still as quiet as any typical non-mechanical keyboard. Other switch types without some kind of silencing mod will be much louder than the average non-mechanical keyboard. The reason Topre is as quiet as typical non-mechanical keyboards is because it is using a similar mechanism of rubber domes.

3) It is the smoothest switch out of all the switches. It's not the most tactile, but it is unique in that it is the smoothest while still give satisfying tactility (the 55g).

4) Topre keyboards are historically by default, of very high quality (although some might say the recent development with the Novatouch has changed that somewhat. I have no experience with the Novatouch, so I can't say).

There are of course downsides to Topre too, though:

1) Topre keyboards and keycaps are by default much more expensive.

2) Keycap selection is pathetic compared to Cherry MX.

3) There  aren't many different variants of the switch like with the various Cherry MX or ALPS switches. You have ergonomic weighted, 45g, 55g, the silenced versions, and that's pretty much it. I think there might be a 30g but I've only seen it mentioned once and I have never seen one listed for sale anywhere.

[Grim Fandango]

For me personally, any change from what I am used to is initially something I dislike. I think that has to do with muscle memory and familiarity with your peripherals. Some people say things like trying a different layout, or a different height keys, even a different switch and immediately liking it over their old ones. But to me, that has never happened.

So I always use something for a while before I make up my mind. I had to do the same thing when I made the switch to Topre. When I got used to it, I really liked it. Obviously, having adjusted to Topre, revisiting my old Cherry MX browns does not feel as nice. I suggest you hang on to your old keyboards for a while, give it some time, and try and compare them after you have gotten used to them.

[Heliosphere]

I'm one of those people whose initial response to Topre was, "This is it? It's just like a more solid/smooth rubber dome!" It took a few weeks of alternating between a few different switch types to start to really understand why some people claim Topre is the king of all switches, and now I'm a convert too.

4) Topre keyboards are historically by default, of very high quality (although some might say the recent development with the Novatouch has changed that somewhat. I have no experience with the Novatouch, so I can't say).

I'm a Topre convert too. I used to have an HHKB and Type S, and now I have a Realforce 45g, 55g, FC660C, and Novatouch and I plan to keep the 55g, FC, and Novatouch. None of the MX switches feel as good anymore after getting used to Topre.

Having disassembled a Novatouch and seen the insides, I can say that the build quality is actually very nice - better than a Realforce. Like I mentioned earlier though, it's very difficult to take apart the Novatouch versus a Realforce. I'll describe some of the details:

- The Novatouch case is secured by 4 screws, two of which are hidden, and the two halves of the case are held together by snap-in clips similar to CM's other mechanical keyboards in which you have to use a flat-head screwdriver or some thin lever to pry the case apart carefully.
- The Novatouch uses large continuous sheets of rubber domes, as opposed to the Realforce in which each key has an individual rubber dome.

The only thing CM cheaped out on is the keycaps, which look and feel cheap, but they're probably intended to be replaced by nicer sets with Novatouch's unique MX compatibility.

[Shayde]

Well I left the Novatouch for a while as suggested, and then used it at work again.  Still wasn't feeling it.  It was actually starting to annoy me.

Someone had left a Lenovo rubber dome keyboard on my desk so out of curiosity I plugged it in for a break from the Novatouch.  And it was when I found I got more enjoyment typing on this cheap rubber dome keyboard than I ever have from the Novatouch - including preferring the thock sound of the Lenovo- I shelved the Nova permanently.  Topre is just not for me.

Mind you, I suspect the Lenovo board is on the higher end of rubber dome.  The keys look well used but still have their rough surface, so I suspect they're PBT.

[brimborion]

I got a Type Heaven 45g six days ago.

First five minutes (directly after using a Tactile Pro and a Model M): What the hell? Maybe I shouldn't have bought this. It felt dead.
First day: Still not sure, but not having any problems either. I like the firm keys. I'm able to use them smoothly now.
Second day: Used to it. Do some gaming on it, no problems.
Third day: Switched to the Model M a little while, but switched back. Not as jarring this time.
Today: I really like this keyboard. The keys feel kind of like it feels when you snap off a square from a cold chocolate bar.

I compared it to a brand new Key Tronic E03600U2, and it really wasn't very similar (though I like Key Tronics fine). I don't feel like I bought a really expensive cheap keyboard. I was sensitive to that possibility after what I paid for the first Das Keyboard model (which I think was a Key Tronic with black keys.) But I'd say for me, if I didn't like it by now, I probably just didn't like it.

[Heliosphere]

Well I left the Novatouch for a while as suggested, and then used it at work again.  Still wasn't feeling it.  It was actually starting to annoy me.

Someone had left a Lenovo rubber dome keyboard on my desk so out of curiosity I plugged it in for a break from the Novatouch.  And it was when I found I got more enjoyment typing on this cheap rubber dome keyboard than I ever have from the Novatouch - including preferring the thock sound of the Lenovo- I shelved the Nova permanently.  Topre is just not for me.

Mind you, I suspect the Lenovo board is on the higher end of rubber dome.  The keys look well used but still have their rough surface, so I suspect they're PBT.

Lenovo makes nice rubber dome keyboards, I really like the ones on my X220 - which actually feel surprisingly similar to dampened Topre. I agree that I did not like the Novatouch, even after using it for a week. The Novatouch felt and sounded terrible compared to other Topre keyboards. Silent modding the Novatouch changes the experience completely.

[demik]

No. Just stick to cherry MX

said no one ever

[Shayde]

Lenovo makes nice rubber dome keyboards, I really like the ones on my X220 - which actually feel surprisingly similar to dampened Topre. I agree that I did not like the Novatouch, even after using it for a week. The Novatouch felt and sounded terrible compared to other Topre keyboards. Silent modding the Novatouch changes the experience completely.

Normally we have those hideous Logitech K120's at work, so the Lenovo KB1021 was a pleasant surprise compared to those (and the Novatouch).  This is the board I'm talking about (if it's not blasphemy to publish a picture of a rubber dome!), but with the Lenovo logo, not IBM:

[Novus]

No. Just stick to cherry MX

said no one ever

Naw.
We're a dying breed man.