Getting used to mechanical...

[phoenix]

It all started with a used Model M (1391401) I found in the corner of a closet of my lab (I'm in a university lab). I was amazed by all the materials that went into such keyboards and, naturally, found geekhack after googling

Before that I have never used a Mechanical keyboard. At work and home I use an old IBM USB keyboard (KU-9958), and I really liked it. It 's a typical rubber dome but much better than most keyboards I've used.

Now to the mechanical. I'm too used to bottoming out and I type with a lot of force. I'm loud even on a rubber dome. On the Model M I simply can't train myself to stop after the click. I'm also somewhat bothered by the high-pitched residual ringing (probably because I type unnecessarily hard).

Last week I bought the Dell AT101W after reading about it in ebay finds. for $15 it was easy. But after I tried it I was very disappointed. The keys have more friction than my rubber dome keyboard and have less bottom-out travel. It also doesn't feel ``mechanical'' at all. If I'm correct, that means I hate Alps now...

So now I'd like to try a Cherry switch. Can someone recommend a decent keyboard that's not too expensive but easy to resell in near-new condition? Just in case I don't like it, either.

And, based on my old habits, does it seem like I might like the Topre switches, since they are structurally still rubber domes? (Yes I know they are expensive...)

OK, that marks my very first post on GH. I hope I don't spend too much time here from now on

P.S. I was at our university surplus store yesterday and tried an ibm selectric (the keys pretty much have no travel, probably too worn out) and an ibm wheelwriter 5 (buckling spring keys in excellent condition). The wheelwriter's typing sound in operation is awesome, and for $10 I really regret not having it, but I'm moving out of town this week and have no place for storage.

[timw4mail]

Hmm... since buckling springs are about the highest resistance type of keyswitch, I'd say you first need to learn to soften your keystrokes.

For high-resistance, tactile switches, I recommend the Cherry whites, if you can find them.

With a softer touch, I'd recommend Cherry blue switches. These also have a click, but they are generally a nice switch to at least try.

If you can find a keyboard with them, the white round SMK switches are also nice. They are similar to the Cherry blue switches, but they have a later actuation point, and they have a lower-pitched click.

I agree about the Dell switches. Those black ALPS switches are VERY subtly tactile. After typing on my IBM Model F, they are very difficult to discern the tactile point.

If you really can't stop typing so hard, get a manual typewriter...because that's about the only thing that requires a lot of force to type with. :lol:

[ch_123]

INow to the mechanical. I'm too used to bottoming out and I type with a lot of force. I'm loud even on a rubber dome. On the Model M I simply can't train myself to stop after the click. I'm also somewhat bothered by the high-pitched residual ringing (probably because I type unnecessarily hard).

Last week I bought the Dell AT101W after reading about it in ebay finds. for $15 it was easy. But after I tried it I was very disappointed. The keys have more friction than my rubber dome keyboard and have less bottom-out travel. It also doesn't feel ``mechanical'' at all. If I'm correct, that means I hate Alps now...

I must say, I find Model M style buckling springs are very easy to bottom out on, and as for the Black Alps used in Dells... it was as if someone designed them so that you couldn't not bottom out on them. Good news is that once you type on a Blue Cherry for a few hours, not bottoming out will probably come naturally to you.

There's a company called Gemini Computers who was selling Cherry G80s with blue Cherry switches for about $60. Only catch is that they had Chinese letters on the keycaps in addition to the US ones (I think?) Either way, once you ignored the Chinese, it was the exact same as a Cherry G80 in a US layout, except cheaper. I'm not sure if they still sell them though.

The other option is the Scorpious M10, which is in a similar enough price bracket. They're not quite as popular around here because of some unreliability issues involving their soldering. It may or may not have been fixed, I'm not too sure.

[rdjack21]

Agree if you can't keep from bottoming out on the Model M you are really going to bottom out on pretty much anything else.

You may also want to take a look at one of the Northgate omni keys they have white Alps (very clicky). You can find them on ebay if you want to try one.


As far as the Topre's goes I'm biased because I love them so I'm going to keep my mouth shut. Na I can't really do that when there is the opportunity to get another convert. They are like and not like at the same time a good rubber dome. Very smooth key action and soft landing but the feel you have to experience for your self. It is just to hard to explain. Unlike most rubber domes you do not have to bottom them out for the key to actuate. When I got my first Topre I would bottom them out all the time now though I don't and my typing has improved considerably. Also Just so you know the Realforce boards have a slightly different feel to them compared to the HHKB (Happy Hacking Key board) Pro 2. That is mainly due to the way the keys are mounted. I like both of them though becuase the difference is minimul and you will not detect it the way you type now. It should also be noted that some people don't like the key weighting of the Realforce and have modified their boards to make the alpha keys all 45g. Where as the HHKB is all 45g with out needing to do a mod.

No matter what you decide to try you will have a great time finding your prefered board. I know I have really enjoyed trying them all and to an extent I'm still trying them. And a word of advice start with used boards they are far cheaper to try then once you settle on what you like spend the money on a good one. The only problem with that advice is used Topre's are few and far between and when they do come up they are gone fast. So try the others first then if none of them suit you get a Topre.

[keyb_gr]

It's not that unusual to bottom out on a Model M. It would be very unusual to bottom out hard though.

I'd suggest sticking with the M exclusively for a while. If you've been pounding on rubber domes for years, that's not going to change in days. Plus, as mentioned, Ms already are on the heavier side of things.

For someone with a heavier touch I can recommend the following:

Buckling spring IBM style (clicky + tactile)
Cherry clears (tactile)
Cherry blacks (linear)

(In that order.)

Cherry blues, while basically nice switches, are too light for me. I bottom them out hard most of the time.
Clicky Acers have me bottom out hard all the time, not a very nice feeling.

[ch_123]

Agree if you can't keep from bottoming out on the Model M you are really going to bottom out on pretty much anything else.

I completely disagree with that. I find it easy to bottom out on a Model M, not quite as easy on a Model F and very easy not to bottom out on a Cherry board.

The Wheelwriter is an interesting beast - it may actually be the first use of Buckling Springs - it's hard to nail down.

Nope. From what I've found, those things came out in 1984, and BS boards were around since 1978 at least. So, unless the earliest electronic typewriters in the link below came out before them, the 5251 terminal keyboard was probably the earliest, with the 3278 board being the earliest confirmed one (released one month after the 5251 board)

Link

[iggysaps]

Good news is that once you type on a Blue Cherry for a few hours, not bottoming out will probably come naturally to you.

Of all the keyboards that I have, I would say the G80-3000 with blue cherries has not gotten that much use.  I got the G80-3000, when the Dell AT101W arrived, I liked it more, then my Unicomp Spacesaver arrived, then I liked it the most.  

Maybe I have to give my G80 more of a chance, as I seem to type less accurately on it, and bottom out a lot.  I type best on the unicomp, least errors, equates into faster typing.

Probably have spent 6 hours total typing time on the G80-3000, I'll give it another chance, maybe I will get the hang of it, for now, my favorite is still the Unicomp Spacesaver.  BS for the win!

[ch_123]

It obviously varies a lot from person to person. Of all they keyboards I've used, the Model F and blue Cherry are the ones I type the fastest on. I prefer the feel of the Model F, but I type on the Cherrys slightly faster, possible because of the lesser resistance. I intend to put some Teflon powder on my F and see how I like it then.

[Ulysses31]

The Cherry whites i've seen were linear :|

[timw4mail]

The Cherry whites i've seen were linear :|

Whites are not linear, there is a very distinct tactile bump. Bottoming out the key with enough pressure might make you go over that tactile point, though.

[keyb_gr]

The Cherry whites i've seen were linear :|

That must have been MY mechanics (those you find in G81s)... in the Cherry switch wiki, MX white switches are listed as being either clicky (old ones) or tactile, and clears are tactile anyway.

The chances of finding MX clears in the States probably are pretty slim. They've mainly been used in regular G80-3000s, which nowadays are available in German, Swiss and US with Euro layouts, beige only.

One could grab a G81 as sort of a training measure... though most people tend to bang on these rather than acquiring a soft touch. One would be awfully glad to have the M around as an alternative.

[phoenix]

Thank you all for the suggestions!

I find the IBM has even more key travel - was that sucker turned on?  The Wheelwriter is an interesting beast - it may actually be the first use of Buckling Springs - it's hard to nail down.

The keys do have quite a bit of travel but I'm not sure it's more than that on a model m. And I did turn the Wheelwriter on. It was so loud I couldn't hear my own key presses at all. The wheelwriters are still seen in a lot of offices here but pretty much only for display now.

There's a company called Gemini Computers who was selling Cherry G80s with blue Cherry switches for about $60. Only catch is that they had Chinese letters on the keycaps in addition to the US ones (I think?) Either way, once you ignored the Chinese, it was the exact same as a Cherry G80 in a US layout, except cheaper. I'm not sure if they still sell them though.

The other option is the Scorpious M10, which is in a similar enough price bracket. They're not quite as popular around here because of some unreliability issues involving their soldering. It may or may not have been fixed, I'm not too sure.

I can't find any normal G80s there. They are all for POS. Also didn't find the one with Chinese characters. The M10 seems like a good choice to try out the blue Cherry switches. It's $49.95 on buy.com.

[Ulysses31]

Well you see, I was in Maplin a few days ago (a UK electronics retailer) and they sell bags of assorted switches (rotary, latches, etc etc) and there were a couple of what looked like Cherry MX switches in the bag (I say looked like, but they had "Cherry" written on them and were basically the same design as the switches in my keyboard), with a white stem, and they had no tactility whatsoever.  It just felt like compressing an ordinary spring.  Make of that what you will, but i'm no fool and I would have noticed any bump on the way down.

[patrickgeekhack]

Based on my experience, rubber domes require bottoming out. Model M require more force than most keyboards, and hence has a greater chance of the user bottoming out. The more you use it, the more you'll learn to less bottoming out. If you more to lighter keys like the black Alps and Cherry MX Blue or Brown, you'll learn to not bottoming out. But, to not bottoming out require two things. First, you have to a bit conscious about it. If all you want to do is pound away, then you'll never learn not to bottoming out. Second, you need to use the lighter switch keyboard for quite a while to start feeling the tactile bump. This is even more important with keyboards which do not have a click.

I started with a Customizer and then moved to the AT101W. At the beginning I was not feeling the tactile bump well. But, after having used it for a while, I can say it's there. Then I moved to the  blue cherries. It was easier on this one to learn to not bottoming out because it has a click and has a more pronounced tactile bump than the AT101W. It's now my favourite keyboard.

[keyb_gr]

Well you see, I was in Maplin a few days ago (a UK electronics retailer) and they sell bags of assorted switches (rotary, latches, etc etc) and there were a couple of what looked like Cherry MX switches in the bag (I say looked like, but they had "Cherry" written on them and were basically the same design as the switches in my keyboard), with a white stem, and they had no tactility whatsoever.  It just felt like compressing an ordinary spring.  Make of that what you will, but i'm no fool and I would have noticed any bump on the way down.

Hmm. Did these have a solid white stem or more of a slightly translucent milky plastic (as found on clears)?

[patrickgeekhack]

I would like to add that I don't if someone can do it, but I cannot always not bottom out the keys. But, what I can do now is not to bottom them with a lot of force.  When I'm typing at a decent speed, I cannot control which key will not be bottomed out and which one will.

[Rajagra]

I would like to add that I don't if someone can do it, but I cannot always not bottom out the keys. But, what I can do now is not to bottom them with a lot of force.  When I'm typing at a decent speed, I cannot control which key will not be bottomed out and which one will.

Pretty much the same here. It has to be said that on my Customizer, 90% of the travel is before the click, once it has clicked the chance of avoiding bottoming out is slim. In comparison, my DAS III clicks about half way down, so it's easier to control.

But to me the important thing to remember is that you don't *have* to bottom out. Whether it actually does or not is no big deal. Just use the smallest force needed to get the job done reliably. I think that's the way to avoid noise and RSI.

[patrickgeekhack]

Pretty much the same here. It has to be said that on my Customizer, 90% of the travel is before the click, once it has clicked the chance of avoiding bottoming out is slim. In comparison, my DAS III clicks about half way down, so it's easier to control.

That's true.

But to me the important thing to remember is that you don't *have* to bottom out. Whether it actually does or not is no big deal. Just use the smallest force needed to get the job done reliably. I think that's the way to avoid noise and RSI.

Could not have said it better myself.

[phoenix]

It's been a month since my original post. I now have bigpook(from xsphat(from puntium))'s HHKB Pro 2 and watduzhkstand4's HHKB Lite 2. I also tried my AT101W some more.

HHKB Pro 2 is indeed very nice. Very comfortable to type on. After typing on it for two weeks I already found it tiring to type on some of the other keyboards I have at work and home. However, the keys are too curved in my opinion. Let me explain. The curve is very much artificial because it only comes from the shapes of the key caps and not how they keys are mounted, unlike the Model M. The keys go down perpendicular to the bottom, not the top surface of the keys, so such big angles on the lower rows are not the most comfortable. The space bar is the worst. The side of my thumb only touches the front upper edge of the key and not much surface at all. Other than that, it's better than anything I've used. I don't code for a living so I don't know how the locations of the fn-enabled keys make sense. I would much prefer having the arrow keys on IJKL in an inverse T shape. And, considering that most of these keys are on the right hand side, I'd like to have an fn key added to the big empty space in the lower left corner. I can then simply press it by resting the front corner of my palm on it without much movement of my left hand. In this case the bottom row keys would best be rounded on top like those of AT101W.

Moving on. HHKB Lite 2. I tried it only for a day. Its keys are less curved but actually more natural to me. The rubber domes feel fairly stiff and not as comfortable as some of my other rubber dome keyboards. I bought it because I like the form factor after trying the pro 2 and also thought the extra arrow keys would be useful. I then realize I've gotten used to the pro 2 enough to not look for the arrow keys much any more, and they are a bit cramped in the corner. I may sell it soon because I'm getting the new Thinkpad USB Trackpoint keyboard.

Finally, AT101W. After the keys loosen up a bit, it's actually not bad at all. I also noticed that the bottom row keys (ctrl, alt, win, menu) have a lower pitch when bottomed out. They sound much nicer than the rest of the keys. I wish all keys have this sound. Can someone tell me why they sound different?

[spremino]

Now to the mechanical. I'm too used to bottoming out and I type with a lot of force. I'm loud even on a rubber dome. On the Model M I simply can't train myself to stop after the click.

I use a Model M, too.

Rest your fingers over the keys (or very close). That way your fingers will accelerate less when hitting the keys, and stopping them will be easier. It worked for me, and works also on laptop keyboard.

[timw4mail]

Finally, AT101W. After the keys loosen up a bit, it's actually not bad at all. I also noticed that the bottom row keys (ctrl, alt, win, menu) have a lower pitch when bottomed out. They sound much nicer than the rest of the keys. I wish all keys have this sound. Can someone tell me why they sound different?

There's a lot of air in the AT101W. Really, if you listen carefully, every different "block" of keys sounds different, because the space for the keys is shaped differently.

The very bottom row also has convex keycaps, which I would think might also influence the difference in pitch/timbre of the sound.

[Special K]

The tactile point on my Model M seems to occur so close to the bottoming out point that I'm not sure how anyone would be able to type on it without bottoming out every time.  The tactile point on my cherry blue and brown switches seems to occur earlier, giving you more time to react before bottoming out.  This would probably be apparent by looking at the force curves for each switch.  

Having said that, I usually bottom out even when using light switches, but I don't worry about it too much.

[wellington1869]

Having said that, I usually bottom out even when using light switches, but I don't worry about it too much.

same here, fwiw.

I always thought 'not bottoming' was a rule of thumb we inherited from typewriters that maybe doesnt have a place (or prominent place) for typists today.  I look more for a pleasant bottoming rather than no bottoming, lol.

[kyamei]

And, considering that most of these keys are on the right hand side, I'd like to have an fn key added to the big empty space in the lower left corner. I can then simply press it by resting the front corner of my palm on it without much movement of my left hand.

While not exactly the location you had in mind and I would assume you already know this, but you can change either the left alt or command key into an Fn key.

[phoenix]

Yes I do. I use the left command key as an fn but wish I could avoid doing that.

While not exactly the location you had in mind and I would assume you already know this, but you can change either the left alt or command key into an Fn key.

[InSanCen]

Well you see, I was in Maplin a few days ago (a UK electronics retailer) and they sell bags of assorted switches (rotary, latches, etc etc) and there were a couple of what looked like Cherry MX switches in the bag (I say looked like, but they had "Cherry" written on them and were basically the same design as the switches in my keyboard), with a white stem, and they had no tactility whatsoever.  It just felt like compressing an ordinary spring.  Make of that what you will, but i'm no fool and I would have noticed any bump on the way down.

I'll have a look-see for you (I work in Maplins).

I take it it's the "lucky bag" of switches?
Can't say I took much notice to be honest.
Will learn to look at things properly.

[Ulysses31]

Yeah, it's the assorted bag.  I haven't clarified whether or not it was white or very slightly translucent because it's really hard to tell in a harshly-lit store.  It would be great if they sold these separately, but I haven't seen them in the switches section of the catalogue.

[InSanCen]

Yeah, it's the assorted bag.  I haven't clarified whether or not it was white or very slightly translucent because it's really hard to tell in a harshly-lit store.  It would be great if they sold these separately, but I haven't seen them in the switches section of the catalogue.

I know we don't do them separately.

Didn't get chance to look today (first day back after a week off, so much to catch up on), but I will do.