Author Topic: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps  (Read 6668 times)

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Offline Hypersphere

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KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« on: Sat, 10 January 2015, 09:55:49 »
My new Matias keycaps arrived (blank black ABS modifiers), and I installed them on my Keyboard Paradise (KBP) V60 Matias-switch keyboards along with dye-sublimated PBT alpha and number keycaps from IBM 5140 keyboards. I have two V60s, one with Matias Click switches and one with Matias Quiet Click switches. I have fitted both of them with the IBM and Matias keycaps.

Here is a view of the result:

86902-0

As expected, the Matias keycaps fit perfectly on the Matias switches. Everything works, including the stabilizers, even on the spacebar. The Matias keycaps are ABS, but they have a slightly textured surface giving them a good feel. In any event, one doesn't notice the feel of keycaps on modifiers very much compared to the feel of keycaps on alpha keys. The window on the CapsLock key works when viewed from a low angle to the right, but the LED on the V60 is under the upper left portion of the key, so that most of the light leaks from under the keycap on the upper left.

The dye-sublimated PBT keycaps from Alps-mount 5140 keyboards also fit the Matias switches perfectly with no binding whatsoever.

Both V60s are remapped in Karabiner software for the Mac to a HHKB Pro 2 layout with no dead keys. The newly mapped Fn key is on the far right of the bottom row.

Now that keycaps (including spacebars!) are available from Matias that fit the KBP V60 Matias switch keyboards, it is far easier than before to set up keycap combinations to one's liking. They are available with or without legends and in black or white. Thus far, the caps are ABS only, but depending on the success of the Matias 60 group buy, PBT keycaps might be available from Matias in the future. In the meantime, it is possible to harvest keycaps from vintage Alps-mount keyboards, including those with double-shot ABS or dye-sub PBT.

These keyboards are delightful to use. Both the Click and Quiet Click Matias switches provide excellent tactile feedback. True to its name, the Quiet Click switches are indeed quiet, with dampening of both the downstroke and return stroke. I haven't done quantitative sound level measurements or recordings, but my impression is that the V60MTS-Q keyboard is quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S.

The Click switches do indeed click, adding definitive aural feedback to the pronounced tactile feedback. The Click switches are quite loud -- the typing experience on the V60MTS-C reminds me of typing on my IBM XT keyboard.

Now I have two new favorites to add to my upper tier of keyboards. I like both the V60MTS-C and V60MTS-Q, and it is difficult to choose between them. I think I might give the edge to the Click version, but it is good to have the Quiet version when I am typing within earshot of others who might be disturbed by the joyful noise of a full-feedback mechanical keyboard.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 10 January 2015, 09:58:48 »
my impression is that the V60MTS-Q keyboard is quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S.

Y U DO DIS!! :eek:

Now I want to try one of those boards to. :P

Offline dante

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 10 January 2015, 10:31:09 »
The window on the CapsLock key works when viewed from a low angle to the right, but the LED on the V60 is under the upper left portion of the key, so that most of the light leaks from under the keycap on the upper left.

That's a tough one.  I suppose KBP could make a running change to move the LED where the Matias window is - however would that decrease the light for those who don't have those keycaps?  I know they already purchased thousands of ABS sets and won't consider anything else - maybe they will move to Matias caps after they run out of stock.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 10 January 2015, 10:44:51 »
The placement of the window and LED do not bother me. I seldom use CapsLock anyway. In fact, I have remapped it as Control, but if I really want CapsLock, I have mapped this as Fn+Tab, which then causes the CapsLock LED to illuminate.

The main thing for me is that keycaps are now available from Matias that fit Matias-switch keyboards other than those made by Matias, such as the KBP V60 with Matias Click or Matias Quiet Click switches.

So far, Matias only supplies ABS keycaps, but I hope that they will start supplying PBT keycaps. It would be great if they would make dye-sub PBT caps, but as a start, perhaps they could start supplying blanks or PBT with front-printed and/or top-printed lasered legends. In the Cherry world, good examples are the Leopold PBT sets that are available from the Korean vendor "widebasket" on eBay.
« Last Edit: Sat, 10 January 2015, 11:03:07 by Hypersphere »

Offline dante

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 10 January 2015, 10:48:27 »
Has anyone figured out who makes those Leopold PBT keycaps?

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 10 January 2015, 13:36:01 »
Has anyone figured out who makes those Leopold PBT keycaps?
I don't know. The label on my set shows the Leopold brand with a link to a Korean website and a footnote saying, "Made in Taiwan". However, I do not know the company or factory that actually manufactures the Leopold PBT keycaps.

They are quite nice, although they have one limitation, which is shared by some other thick PBT keycap sets -- they are too thick to work properly on some of the stabilized keys on keyboards with Costar-style wire stabilizers without sanding down the inside edge that rubs on the stabilizer wire.

BTW, the wire stabilizers on my KBP V60 Matias-switch keyboards work wonderfully well. The stabilized keys are responsive without any mushiness, and they respond equally well to off-center as well as centered hits to the keycap. They are also quiet -- no rattles.


Offline CommonCurt

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 01:31:27 »
BTW, the wire stabilizers on my KBP V60 Matias-switch keyboards work wonderfully well. The stabilized keys are responsive without any mushiness, and they respond equally well to off-center as well as centered hits to the keycap. They are also quiet -- no rattles.

I have some rattle on the  right side of my spacebar (the side I hit) on my model with "quiet click" switches. It has nothing to do with the Matias switches, but rather a slightly warped spacebar.
Speaking of spacebars. Man they are a ***** to take off.

The one with Clicky switches has no rattle though.
Some of Ye ole  Keyboards -->
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LZ-GH V2:  MX-?62g   |   KMAC2:   62g Tactile MX-Greys   |   LZ CLS s:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   X60:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   GON NerD 60:  62g Old MX-Clears   |   Filco MJ2 (Beige) TKL's:  62g MX-Clears  &   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   IBM '91 SSK
                                
       
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Offline JackMills

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:06:35 »
i am glad to read that the Quiet version is really quiet, as I have ordered an Infinity with those switches, with the intention to use it on the work floor (they complained about my Clears which aren't even that noisy to me).
The texture on the Matias caps seem really nice, how are they thickness-wise?

And I have to say that those IBM caps look really nice, those 5140 are such nice machines.

Offline spiceBar

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 11:04:39 »
(...)
These keyboards are delightful to use. Both the Click and Quiet Click Matias switches provide excellent tactile feedback. True to its name, the Quiet Click switches are indeed quiet, with dampening of both the downstroke and return stroke. I haven't done quantitative sound level measurements or recordings, but my impression is that the V60MTS-Q keyboard is quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S.

The Click switches do indeed click, adding definitive aural feedback to the pronounced tactile feedback. The Click switches are quite loud -- the typing experience on the V60MTS-C reminds me of typing on my IBM XT keyboard.
(...)

I do agree with you that the Matias Quiet Click are very nice.

They have a much better tactility than Cherry MX brown or clears. A little louder than Cherry MX with O-rings, but not much.

I don't have the V60MTS, but I do have the Matias Laptop Pro (Quiet Click, Bluetooth), and it's a joy to use.

I have not tried the Click switches yet.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 13 January 2015, 14:21:52 »
i am glad to read that the Quiet version is really quiet, as I have ordered an Infinity with those switches, with the intention to use it on the work floor (they complained about my Clears which aren't even that noisy to me).
The texture on the Matias caps seem really nice, how are they thickness-wise?

And I have to say that those IBM caps look really nice, those 5140 are such nice machines.
The Matias caps look better to me than the stock KBP caps, but I might be influenced at least in part by the stock KBP legends, which look rather bad to me. My Matias caps are black blanks. I haven't measured the thickness, but the Matias and KBP caps appear to be the same thickness.

The IBM caps are indeed very nice. Another source of excellent dye-sub PBT Alps-mount caps that fit the Matias switches is the Wang 725-3770 keyboard. Some of the mods on the Wang are non-standard sizes, but the alpha and number keycaps are standard size. The Wang and IBM kecaps appear to be made by the same manufacturer, judging by the structure of the underside of the caps. And although thickness does not necessarily correlate with quality, for what it's worth, the Wang and IBM caps are thicker than the stock KBP or Matias keycaps.



Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 14 February 2015, 10:09:00 »
Thank you for the review. I have just ordered a V60MTS-Q and I'm looking forward to trying the switches. I currently have an HHKB Pro2, but I do not like the layout of the HHKB and the V60 seems like a better fit for me.

What I'm really after is a fully programmable keyboard where I can define dual role features myself, so I'm not reliant on third party software or configuration on the system I am using my keyboard. I've always wanted this from my keyboard and even with the HHKB, this is sorely missed since I need to configure so many things with third party software in order for it to function the way I want it. Do you know if the V60MTS will work with a teensy? I guess I would also be up for a PCB if that's an option.

Also, I am not looking forward to typing on those flimsy ABS caps. Do you happen to have a spare set of PBT keycaps for sale, or know where to source a set without paying an arm and a leg? I live in Northern Europe.

One more thing. Do you know if I can use a vortex aluminum case for the V60MTS?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 14 February 2015, 10:29:10 »
the Matias and KBP caps appear to be the same thickness.
Pretty sure they’re the same keycaps, from the same vendor.

Quote from: Hypersphere
The Wang and IBM kecaps appear to be made by the same manufacturer, judging by the structure of the underside of the caps.
Yes, the dyesubs on Apple Alps boards, as well as Zenith, Texas Instruments, SGI, Tektronix, Xerox, C.Itoh, IBM, Wang, Dell, etc. keyboards were all made by Alps.

They’re the same profile (but slightly thicker) than the cylindrical doubleshots made by Alps which can be found on Zenith, Texas Instruments, Sharp, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, NEC, Leading Edge, Packard Bell, etc. etc. keyboards.

(Note the Apple caps have their own various unique profiles.)

I think all the Alps-made dyesubs and maybe all the Alps-made doubleshots too were made in Japan. In any event, if you see an Alps board and it says “Made in Japan” on it, there’s a good chance the keycaps will be made by Alps (either dyesub PBT or doubleshot ABS); of course there are also boards assembled elsewhere that sourced keycaps from Alps in Japan. If it says “Made in Taiwan”, there’s a decent chance it’ll have Tai Hao caps.

Also, if any of you silly people butcher a Wang 724 for the sake of a board other than a Kingsaver, and you don’t have a use for the spacebar-profile 1.5x1 Alt and Ctrl keys, please sell them to me. I don’t have any of those particular keycaps, and I’d like to play around with them. I’ll also take any other caps you don’t want, including the awesome numpad. Or if you butcher an IBM 5140 (kinda tragic, considering how nice a board it is, with great design and pretty rare switches), please sell me modifier keycaps (esp. the short right shift) and potentially all the rest of the parts of the board you don’t need. I’ll put them to good use in interesting projects.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 February 2015, 10:51:14 by jacobolus »

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 31 August 2015, 13:32:41 »
<snip>
One more thing. Do you know if I can use a vortex aluminum case for the V60MTS?
Apologies for the delayed response. I just now got around to trying to install my V60MTS-C into an aluminum case. I tried the Tex "thin lip" 60% case, but I think that the mounts are the same in other 60% cases, such as the Tex "fat lip", Vortex CNC, Vortex cast aluminum, and MKC.

According to several posts on various sites, these cases work with the Cherry mx versions of the V60, but I discovered today that the case does not work with the V60 version with Matias switches. The problem is that the plate has only one hole (to the right of the spacebar) for mounting in the case. Because a single screw would not hold the plate and PCB securely in the case, I abandoned this project, at least for the moment, It might be possible to drill holes in the plate, but I was not prepared to undertake plate surgery today.

If anyone here has any good ideas on how to go about putting the V60MTS into an aluminum case, please let us know!

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 31 August 2015, 20:09:52 »
Yummy.  Looks great.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline Mattr567

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 September 2015, 23:42:02 »
Where did you get the 5140 keycaps?

Did you buy two 5140's and took them just for the keyboards? Or did you buy the keyboards separately.
Wang 725-3770 SKCM Brown, 1995
Zenith 163-73 - SKCM Blue, 1990
KBP V60 MTS - SKCM Amber w/ Canon HiPros
IBM P77, SKCC Green, 1984
IBM P70 - Alps Plate Spring, 1989
Compaq MX 11800, MX Black, 1997

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 05 September 2015, 08:13:10 »
Where did you get the 5140 keycaps?

Did you buy two 5140's and took them just for the keyboards? Or did you buy the keyboards separately.
I used a single keyboard from a 5140 that I found on eBay for the alphanumeric caps. The spacebar and mods are black blanks from Matias. I then donated the rest of the 5140 to a local computer shop.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 05 September 2015, 22:57:50 »
In general I’d advise against this, as the 5140 keyboard is sweet just as it is and with a custom case can be made into an awesome little board (or if it’s a working computer, the whole computer is a sweet vintage machine). But if anyone does, please sell me the rest of the 5140 keyboard that you don’t need (or sell to someone else in the community; I’m fairly cheap). There are several interesting keycap shapes that can be useful for other projects, the little skinny switches are fun, and brown Alps should definitely be saved.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 September 2015, 22:59:43 by jacobolus »