Author Topic: Here is a thought provoking link that socially interested people can explore  (Read 3067 times)

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Offline berserkfan

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http://www.dawn.com/news/1156372/look-to-ibb-to-understand-what-happened-in-paris

I think this is an interesting and useful perspective on our world today.

Too often the Western media is focused on Western areas, and pays scant attention to the going ons in other parts of the world. But as someone living in another part of the world I often notice news events being reported in the other news sources that I scan on a regular basis.

While the world is looking at Paris and Charlie Hebdo, the reality is that there have been more, and higher casualty events, in other parts of the Muslim world. More tellingly, not only have the Western media not paid these so much attention; they don't even elicit as much interest in Muslim countries anymore.  EG Al-Jazeera and Today's Zaman, two major sources of news in English from Muslim countries, hardly treat terrorist acts or acts of bigotry in Muslim countries (especially those with non-Sunni victims) as worthy of condemnation.

It is hardly news to read about a bombing of a Shiite procession in Pakistan or some other Muslim country now. Sorry, was that last week, 2 months ago, or 4 months ago? When I see such news, I don't even bother to read on. It takes place on the frequency that black men were lynched in the US in the past, and at the same frequency that women were burnt as witches in Medieval Europe.

I can't quite settle on the right interpretation of events. I don't even know if there is a right interpretation, because we are dealing with a vast number of players spread across different cultures and countries. There are many levels on which conflict is taking place. But I believe that the Charlie Hebdo attacks are another aspect of what is primarily an internal conflict within the dar-al-Islam (the Muslim world). Muslims are generally in conflict over issues of modernity, and they have to deal with everything that the Westerners had to deal with from the time Martin Luther King nailed his theses to the time that Italy disestablished Roman Catholicism as an official religion, except in a compressed timeframe.

I am not confident that these issues will be settled in my lifetime.

It's very much a clash of civilizations, within civilizations, and with modernity and economic social change into the bargain. In other words don't be reading Francis Fukuyama and treating his words as holy truth. It's too complex.

My purpose? Distilled to the extreme, you can say that I want people to think. The Charlie Hebdo attack is not so simple as 'Muslim terrorists' or 'Islamic radicals' versus the West. Another interpretation, nicely put by the contributor to The Dawn that I linked above, is that of 'anti-people' versus 'people'.

Some Westerners think that the 'Muslims' as a collective are angry that their prophet is being mocked by Charlie Hebdo artists. But within the Muslim world even the prophet's existence is a contested one. The Saudis have already destroyed most of the tombs of the prophet's relatives and reinterred the remains anonymously, and there are plans to demolish the prophet's tomb itself and hide the body so that it cannot be worshipped. Even for a non believer like me I am horrified that 1400 years of history can be destroyed so easily. Supposedly one of the prophet's houses was replaced with a public toilet so that nobody would venerate it anymore. Another house was replaced with... Starbucks.

Violent attacks on Muslims celebrating the prophet's birthday are practically routine. There's like a dozen or more bomb and gun attacks every year in the past 10 years.

The 'anti-people' faction in the Muslim world has caused a lot of damage. I have no idea how much longer it will continue or how these destructive impulses can be ended. But at least know that the conflict is not so simple as 'Muslims vs West, Them vs Us.'
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Offline azhdar

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I agree on a lot of your points , when I was still watching TV news , and it was around Irak War . They would mention "50 deaths in a bomb suicide attack in Irak " , throw some bloody pictures and go on .

Are we just considering that eastern lifes aren't even worth to be mentionned ?

We are just as barbaric as them , we throw air to ground bombs in the hope of hitting leaders while killing civilians . Leaders that will be replaced quickly and won't change their purpose .

We unbalanced Africa the same way during colonization , we consider ourselves above them because we are "RIGHT" .
60-70% of african countries are a mess because we only care about our personnal interest and never considered helping them on a higher level .

And recently look at what we did during Arab Spring .
We attack Lybia for the only reason that Kadhafi was offering an alternative to the West by trying to rebuild "Persian Empire" . Don't even tell me it was revolution , they were all mercenaries payed by Europe , we ended up going after them when they went rogue .
We put in place Leadership that are worst than they were , they go back to Sharia .

War is worth for people that aren't paying their lives for it .
War will always pay .


Different point :
I'm very uncertain that jihadists would cconstantly yell "allahu akbar" when they attack , like they do in every single video you can see on the web .  It feels forced and to me they only serve a cause which isn't necessary eastern .
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline fohat.digs

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It is very frightening, the whole human race polarizing itself into mutually exclusive camps.

And doing it "under the banner of heaven" is the worst and most dangerous way, if believers become emotionally invested in their beliefs.

As a child, I was a devoutly religious little Presbyterian boy who believed what I was told and accepted it as fact. When I awakened to an adult intelligence, it was easy for me to see that Western religion was artificial and bogus, and that the Hebrew God (which is the same as the Catholic, Christian, Muslim, and Mormon God, of course, since "there is only one God and that is God") was clearly not real. It was also easy to see that it had been invented to comfort believers with the expectation that they were not just hanging around in the big bad universe with no one protecting them.

While I had the intellectual and philosophical resources to deal with my awakening, I can see how less sophisticated people would be terrorized at the thought that their "safety net" had evaporated.

My reaction, after the initial shock had worn away and I had become comfortable with a realistic view of the world, was one of liberation and exhilaration.
I was able to look at the incredible complexity of the universe with new eyes, and it was infinitely more exciting than it had ever been before.

At this point, I feel that the concept of the Hebrew God is an insult to the beauty of the universe, and that the continuance of religions emanating from the Bronze Age of civilization is an albatross around the neck of humanity.

While I can partially understand how primitive (I don't know what other word to use) people feel that they have no choice to lash out against the threat that they perceive, the logical side of me is unable to comprehend, on any level, why they cannot understand that ugliness and violence will never produce any sort of sympathy for their cause and will only cause the world to respect them even less.

Obviously, as a 8th+ generation American on both sides of my family, freedom of thought and expression is ingrained in me as perhaps my most fundamental human right. The flip side of that is the feeling that the worst thing that any person can do is to take away freedom of thought and expression.

This is an intractable conundrum, and the collision of the "live and let live" factions with the factions who are willing to go to any lengths, including mass killing, to "cleanse" their world of heretics, is not proceeding towards any kind of resolution.
 

"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
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Offline baldgye

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Idk i feel like I understood everything you posted without having to read it by simply reading and learning about Muslims and just keeping up with general news.

I agree (and have been saying for years) that the Middle east is like Europe in the Middle Ages, the only reason it's allowed to exist and grow to be so powerful is simple, oil.
There is a time limit on all of this and it hinges on the oil fields, when that money is gone so is the power of these extreme states and nations who enforce barbaric laws, punishments and belief systems.

I don't think the lack of news coverage of terrorist attacks in the Middle East is saying anything other than, yes, that's what happenes in an area of religious extremism and there is almost nothing that can be done about it. It's a sad fact but it's one that exists and will probably exist (like the OP said) for our whole lives.


To be honest, the more interesting story of the attack on Paris is how the CH magazine was in pretty dire straights financially prior to this attack and was usin fund rasing events in order to pay employees. This attack comes and they have now annouced that with some parterns they plan on publishing 1 million copies of there next magazine.
The attack, instead of stopping a magazine from offending some extremist actually saved it from going bankrupt and gave it more publicity than it would ever have hoped to have gained otherwise.

Offline azhdar

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To be honest, the more interesting story of the attack on Paris is how the CH magazine was in pretty dire straights financially prior to this attack and was usin fund rasing events in order to pay employees. This attack comes and they have now annouced that with some parterns they plan on publishing 1 million copies of there next magazine.
The attack, instead of stopping a magazine from offending some extremist actually saved it from going bankrupt and gave it more publicity than it would ever have hoped to have gained otherwise.
Last time their office got "burnt down" a little time after they did a muslim themed drawing . They ended up being hosted by another French journal for free .

Also the brothers who did the attack were monitored by the french police for a long time . But they stopped recently .
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline baldgye

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To be honest, the more interesting story of the attack on Paris is how the CH magazine was in pretty dire straights financially prior to this attack and was usin fund rasing events in order to pay employees. This attack comes and they have now annouced that with some parterns they plan on publishing 1 million copies of there next magazine.
The attack, instead of stopping a magazine from offending some extremist actually saved it from going bankrupt and gave it more publicity than it would ever have hoped to have gained otherwise.
Last time their office got "burnt down" a little time after they did a muslim themed drawing . They ended up being hosted by another French journal for free .

Also the brothers who did the attack were monitored by the french police for a long time . But they stopped recently .


The whole attack was pretty embarrassing for the Paris Police really, two men storm an office with AK's and then get away?

Offline azhdar

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To be honest, the more interesting story of the attack on Paris is how the CH magazine was in pretty dire straights financially prior to this attack and was usin fund rasing events in order to pay employees. This attack comes and they have now annouced that with some parterns they plan on publishing 1 million copies of there next magazine.
The attack, instead of stopping a magazine from offending some extremist actually saved it from going bankrupt and gave it more publicity than it would ever have hoped to have gained otherwise.
Last time their office got "burnt down" a little time after they did a muslim themed drawing . They ended up being hosted by another French journal for free .

Also the brothers who did the attack were monitored by the french police for a long time . But they stopped recently .


The whole attack was pretty embarrassing for the Paris Police really, two men storm an office with AK's and then get away?

They get away and stay in the same area (who was full of cops ) . But after a while they take hostages in a supermarket , to end up rushing into police forces : http://www.nokenny.com/video-du-raid-de-porte-de-vincennes.html (ignore this ****ty website , only the video is revelant ) .

The whole story smells the :triangle: .

Some years ago , another "djihadist" attacked a jew school in France , he get away . A bit later , they found him alone in an appartment , SWAT team surround the building , evacuate civilians . So they surrend the building for hours , all french TV are live on it . Somehow they "forgot" a window , he tried to escape , they had to shoot him down .

I'm unsure if french police is terrible or just surrounded by :triangles: 
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline berserkfan

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I am quite happy that I have drawn some nuanced and considered responses.

It deeply bothers me that Westerners have been so complacent with their progress that they have failed to consider the possibility that history has not ended (to mock certain Neocons), that it is not certain that the world will follow the lead of European countries.

History is full of examples how civilizations went in one direction and then changed their direction. Urban residents in Pakistan, 3000BC, had access to better sewers and infrastructure than they do now.

Iraqis had more law and order under Hammurabi, than they do today. (In fact the tale of Moses receiving his commandments from God, is thought to be derived from the tale of Hammurabi receiving his laws from the gods.)

France in the future could very well be an Islamic state as that author warned. As much as I personally prefer secularism, I don’t see the victory of secularism as guaranteed. A significant number of people in the world (including the majority of Muslims in most Western countries, if some polls are to be believed) want an Islamic state and Islamic law. Why would the future not move in that direction is beyond me.

One must never forget the importance of things ‘working’ for people. If French Muslims are to support French secularism, they need to feel that the Fifth Republic works for them. And due to sociological things like high unemployment and only menial jobs being available to people living in ‘disfavored’ districts, many feel alienated and disrespected and look to other sources of validation.

Too often, and in too many countries, people refuse to address the problems that require urgent attention. I remember having an exchange with Krogenar. I basically saw the US as a huge ghetto (which I lived in). He saw it as some kind of paradise (since he’s affluent) and did not consider it important or necessary to address the fact that tons of people in the US do live in ghettoes and are pissed as heck. But a country is only as good as its worst aspect.

In another example I pointed out a Ursala K LeGuin tale. That tale applies to human societies everywhere; in every country there is some elite profiting from the suppression on part of the society.

As long as there is still overall prosperity, the society can keep resentment at bay. But when the economy is poor, those on the bottom of the social ladder will yearn for change. And they will choose whatever ideology or religion that promises to raise their social status. If it isn’t the Koran, it could be Mein Kampf. That’s why we must never neglect the poorest people. Or they may take actions that are destructive to the social order (which they don’t feel much affection for).

Take the cases of the Muslim policeman who was shot dead and the Malian Muslim worker who saved people by hiding them in a cold storage room. These people had jobs. In France, that’s a big thing, because you have tons of employment benefits.

People respect authority in France, so the policeman would have been treated with respect and would have seen that the system works for him. He would have taken in stride the fact that some cartoonists mocked his religion, because he would see on a daily basis that people respect him.

The Malian would be fully aware of how Muslim radicals turned his country into hell last year (and destroyed most of the Muslim culture, shrines and manuscripts in Mali). He would have opposed the terrorists with all his might.

But in some ways, these Muslims don’t matter. They’re integrated. In France a grocery store worker or policeman will have a very decent income, plenty of holidays, opportunity to experience culture. Their interests are no different from other French residents.

It is the many, many people who remain stuck at the bottom of the social ladder with no hope up, who will eventually cause trouble by upsetting the status quo.

And that applies to every country.

In China the large majority of Muslims are split between two ethnic groups. Over 80% of all Chinese Muslims are either Hui or Uighur, with the Hui outnumbering the Uighur.

As ‘people of the book’ the Hui value education and have a tradition of scholarship and traditionally have done well in the civil service examinations. Hui have traditionally been overrepresented in the army and government offices. And so Hui are well integrated. Their mosques look like Chinese temples and they are trusted and regarded as Chinese. Hui festivals are well attended by other Chinese (good food). There is little fear of Hui radicalism or grievances. Neither is there any Hui separatist or extremist group.

In contrast the Uighurs are severely discriminated against in every sector. They are underrepresented in almost category that is positive, and overrepresented in almost every negative category (eg people in prison, drug addicts, thieves/ organized begging rings). Not surprisingly, being near the bottom in every category (and competing with Tibetans for the category of lowest per capita income among all ethnic groups in China), there are people who try to overcome their problems by resorting to radical solutions. That’s why Uighurs are responsible for nearly all acts of terrorism in China although they only make up 0.7% of the population.

As a social scientist I consider it important for every government to help the people at the bottom of the social totem pole. Failure to do so breeds problems that will threaten the rest of the population eventually.
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Offline dorkvader

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In another example I pointed out a Ursala K LeGuin tale. That tale applies to human societies everywhere; in every country there is some elite profiting from the suppression on part of the society.
I think I read that story. If it's the one I was thinking of, it quite moved me.

I sort-of think it's a matter of either greed or self esteem. The people who are greedy and want power have the power to prevent such things, but because of their greed they don't. The people who possess the nobility to prevent such things lack the self esteem or ambition to do so. It's a very rare combination to have both.

And so we end up where we are.

I recently read a piece on this that was quite interesting
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

He lists a large number of scenarios and thought experiments that would be better if everyone acted for the good of all rather than considering their own interests. The first example is the prisoner's dilemma. The one example that struck me the most was that of the fish farmers
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As a thought experiment, let’s consider aquaculture (fish farming) in a lake. Imagine a lake with a thousand identical fish farms owned by a thousand competing companies. Each fish farm earns a profit of $1000/month. For a while, all is well.

But each fish farm produces waste, which fouls the water in the lake. Let’s say each fish farm produces enough pollution to lower productivity in the lake by $1/month.

A thousand fish farms produce enough waste to lower productivity by $1000/month, meaning none of the fish farms are making any money. Capitalism to the rescue: someone invents a complex filtering system that removes waste products. It costs $300/month to operate. All fish farms voluntarily install it, the pollution ends, and the fish farms are now making a profit of $700/month – still a respectable sum.

But one farmer (let’s call him Steve) gets tired of spending the money to operate his filter. Now one fish farm worth of waste is polluting the lake, lowering productivity by $1. Steve earns $999 profit, and everyone else earns $699 profit.

Everyone else sees Steve is much more profitable than they are, because he’s not spending the maintenance costs on his filter. They disconnect their filters too.

Once four hundred people disconnect their filters, Steve is earning $600/month – less than he would be if he and everyone else had kept their filters on! And the poor virtuous filter users are only making $300. Steve goes around to everyone, saying “Wait! We all need to make a voluntary pact to use filters! Otherwise, everyone’s productivity goes down.”

Everyone agrees with him, and they all sign the Filter Pact, except one person who is sort of a jerk. Let’s call him Mike. Now everyone is back using filters again, except Mike. Mike earns $999/month, and everyone else earns $699/month. Slowly, people start thinking they too should be getting big bucks like Mike, and disconnect their filter for $300 extra profit…

A self-interested person never has any incentive to use a filter. A self-interested person has some incentive to sign a pact to make everyone use a filter, but in many cases has a stronger incentive to wait for everyone else to sign such a pact but opt out himself. This can lead to an undesirable equilibrium in which no one will sign such a pact.

In a similar way, these semi-selfish actions (acting for the good of one's country, but not the world is an example) have caused to create the state described in the OP.

Unfortunately, as I said before, we need a large number of people willing and able to do it. We need a "philosopher king" from Plato's Republic.

Offline derezzed

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You picked a hell of a topic to bring to this forum.  Books could be written about this.  I’m sure many have been.  This topic needs a 10,000 word essay to give a proper response but that is too cumbersome.  I will try to keep my reply brief and still worth reading.  I think the term anti-people is too simplistic and misleading and this thread touches on more than just the root cause of extremist terrorist acts.

I think a major cause of extremist terrorism is people’s adherence to absolutist ideologies in the face of a much larger society that cannot accommodate those particular absolutist ideologies.  These ideologues are effectively marginalized by society.  When peaceful means for petitioning for acceptance of ideologies fails, people sometimes turn to violence.  The reasons for this are many and some, but not all, of those reason include: people feel it is the only way to make society hear their message, or they feel they must (or simply want to) punish society for marginalizing their ideology, or they feel that a prolonged campaign of terror can effect a cultural change in favor of their ideology.  I cannot remember the source but I read that, at one point, many suicide bombers in Al Qaeda were well-educated.   These were not poor people with no other options open to them.  They were using themselves as weapons to hurt a society that they viewed as evil.

I personally view religion as an abomination.  It precludes reason and logic when they don’t support religious beliefs.  It promotes the idea that some answers are irrefutably known, contrary to all evidence.   There was an article about Science and Islam in the June 2007 edition of Discover Magazine.  In the article, a Muslim “scientist” claimed that there is proof that Adam was the first man.  His proof was that it was written in the Koran.   You can find that article here.
discovermagazine.com/2007/jul/science-and-islam

Christians (and other religions) commit these same egregious acts of denying evidence that implies or outright exposes falsehoods in their ideologies.  In spite of my distaste for religion, I recognize that people cannot be forced to believe something.  They must be allowed to arrive at their beliefs through personal experience and learning (again, which religion inhibits).   While I don’t care for religion, I think it’s a shame when human cultural heritage is destroyed.  Such acts deny us the ability to learn from it.

Why can’t people accept when they are wrong?  Even in minor matters, it can be difficult to admit to being wrong.  When it comes to ideology, you are dealing with a major component of many people’s mental model—the internal model that is built through personal experience, deduction, induction, etc.  This model guides our interpretation of the sensory input and ideas we receive and helps us define our relationship to the universe.  When an idea challenges an aspect of this model, it challenges the very thing people use to cope with their existence.   The more you attempt to force them to change their model, the more tightly they will cling to it.  The idea that the self ceases to exist beyond death, or that there is no omnipotent, omniscient being looking out for people’s well-being, is too scary for many people to even contemplate.

Ultimately, there is a limit to what you can do to persuade someone to change their internal model.  If a person or relatively small group of people clings to a falsehood in the face of all evidence to the contrary, they condemn themselves to being marginalized.  The whole of society cannot be expected to alter the way it functions just to allow a few thousand people to continue to believe that the earth is flat.  This situation changes when a majority of a society clings to delusion.   Then, other processes (physical laws, natural selection, etc.) can mitigate how much a society clings to delusion.
As far as news reporting in the Western media is concerned, financial considerations, time considerations, political factors (You’re safe.  There are no monsters under the bed. Go back to sleep.  And don’t forget to vote for me.) and other ideological factors determine what information is disseminated to the public, the amount of information disseminated, and how the information is presented.   The frequency of events can also decrease their “newsworthiness”.   The news is delivered in digestible chunks because that is the most profitable method for delivering it to the markets that consume it.  Many people want small doses of news and that is not conducive to fuller comprehension of news events.

Also, many people have so many things to deal with just to survive, that it is difficult to spend time considering things that have no apparent direct connection to them.  Wealthy citizens can lead lives of leisure and, thus, are less likely to challenge the framework that provides them with a life of luxury.  The following story (from http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/Zen/) is meant to illustrate difficulties in perceiving one’s Buddha nature, but I think it just as aptly serves as a metaphor for why it is difficult to perceive how culture affects our ability to perceive things.
     "I heard others talk about ocean all the time. What's the ocean?" A baby fish in the ocean asked grandpa fish.
     "Your surrounding is the ocean," grandpa said.
     "How come I cannot see the ocean?" baby fish questioned.
     "Ocean is inside you and outside you as well. You were born in the ocean and will die back in the ocean eventually. Ocean surrounds you is just like your body surrounds yourself," grandpa continued.
     "... ? ? ?" baby fish.

We can appreciate that something exists in the abstract, but until it affects us in a very real way, it is very difficult to understand how other people (both inside and outside our society) are affected by our society, especially when the effects are difficult to measure or observe.   Most white people cannot understand how racism affects “minorities” because they do not see it.  Most men cannot understand how sexism affects women.  These things are not always easily and directly observable.  But a great number of African Americans and women have a very immediate and strong understanding of how a persistent, subtle environment of racism and sexism affects people. 

Other things to consider: our education system is influenced by political and ideological forces.  Two brothers: John Dulles, the secretary of state, and Allen Dulles,  director of the CIA are credited with a campaign of American imperialism  in the 20th century that resulted in the rise of much of the global anti-American sentiment and persuaded many South American governments to convert to Communism to avoid the Dulles’ interference with national sovereignty.  Yet I never heard about them until a few years ago.  I was never taught about anti-American sentiment unless it originated from the USSR during the Cold War.  Also, people routinely try to get “intelligent design” included in science textbooks.   

News media is not above manipulating the public with lies and misinformation for the purpose of increasing profits.  Newspaper tycoon William Hurst is commonly credited with using his newspapers to influence Americans to support the idea that America should join the Spanish American War for the sole reason that more newspapers are sold during war time.

It looks like I’m veering off topic.  I’m almost certainly skating along the edge.   And it’s late; time to wrap this up.  Ultimately, my point is that things aren’t likely to change unless we improve our efforts to understand other cultures (especially ones whose ideas don’t align with our own) and recognize that cultural differences, political forces, ideological forces, and many other factors can interfere with our ability to productively engage in conversation with other cultures.  Or not.  Like I said, you cannot force people to believe something (or, conversely, stop believing something). Some people simply refuse to change or compromise (including us), even when doing so can prove beneficial.  But trying to improve is better than doing nothing.

tl;dr  Fire, BAD!
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Offline jacobolus

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My purpose? Distilled to the extreme, you can say that I want people to think.
Let me take a guess at your purpose: you’re trying to hone your ability to start internet flamewars, and you’re searching for the right mix of shifty logic, offensive stereotypes, and vague generalities?

Anyhow, no **** this isn’t going to be resolved in your lifetime: we’re talking about the same problems people have been dealing with forever.

If we’re playing the blame game though, I say (along with extremist Muslim sects modern and historical) we blame various European Popes and Crusaders, the Mongols (If Genghis Khan’s grandson Hulagu hadn’t sacked Baghdad in 1258 the whole Middle East would have been much better off) the British and the French (for colonialism) and the Americans and their Israeli proxies (for continued colonialism).

For anyone who wants to understand how far divorced rhetoric about “freedom” and “democracy” and “terrorists” (and for that matter “infidel” and “jihad” and “The Caliphate”) and so on is from any kind of objective reality, I highly recommend a very close reading of Heart of Darkness.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 January 2015, 02:50:24 by jacobolus »

Offline tbc

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jeebus people write alot. tp4tissue is proud.

from what i skimmed, everyone agrees there is a problem, the problem has been around forever, the problem CAN be solved, but it won't be solved wirh the current world social structure.

so my question is: do you think we are getting closer to the solution (through sheer brute force of iterating) or are we repeating the exact same historic mistakes?
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Offline Lord of Narwhals

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It's painfully ironic how a lot of people seem to think that this is a matter of Muslims vs. Western civilization when in fact it's a case of extremists (IS) vs. everyone else.
People here in the West are quick to blame religion for acts like these but religion is just a tool which can be used for both good and bad, and it is the most effective tool you can use to make someone kill others and themselves.
Religion however isn't the main problem here. The main problem here is the long history of corrupt and oppressive governments which by marginalizing and oppressing groups have created extremist factions within said groups. IS is not a product of Muslim hate for the West, it's a product of a long history of war and oppressive governments in the Middle East.
Here's a somewhat decent article on how IS got so powerful.

Another thing worth noting about attacks like these are the ridiculous responses they get.

There are always the conspiracy theorists who are bored with their lives to the point where they create a fantasy world where everything is a setup and everyone is against them. In this case I saw people saying "The police officer didn't get killed because the shot fired towards his head when he was laying on the ground missed. It's clearly a False Flag operation used to blah blah blah...". And yeah, I'm pretty sure that that shot missed but the reason the police officer was on the ground in the first place is because he had already been shot at! He was already dying/dead.

Then there are of course the closet racists who reveal themselves for the uneducated morons they are by blaming it on the Muslims because they don't know jack **** about IS and the fact that the vast majority of IS's victims are Muslims.

Then there's the victim-blamers, in this case they seem to ironically consist of a lot of SJWs on tumblr. "Charlie Hebdo is racist and they asked for it!" Except the satirical images pointed out as racist by SJWs are often anti-racist and while Charlie Hebdo may make fun of Islam, they also make fun of Christianity and other religions, and making fun of Islam and religious extremists is not the same as making fun of normal Muslims.

Source:http://67-tardis-street.tumblr.com/post/107589955860/dear-us-followers
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Offline fohat.digs

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@ derezzed

Ultimately, my point is that things aren’t likely to change unless we improve our efforts to understand other cultures (especially ones whose ideas don’t align with our own) and recognize that cultural differences, political forces, ideological forces, and many other factors can interfere with our ability to productively engage in conversation with other cultures.

I would submit that "we" (the so-called Developed World) would be relatively (and I use that word with trepidation) more open to "productively engage in conversation with other cultures" if there was any potential for resolution or cooperation.

The problem seems intractable to me, modern secular and traditional fundamentalist cultures have irreconcilable differences. As much as I would like to see more openness and transparency everywhere in the world, for the present it seems like we would benefit most from leaving each other alone as much as possible.

And it is far too late for the USSR and the USA to "apologize" for their transcendentally stupid and hopelessly misguided meddling in and invasions of the Middle East in recent decades, which have completely destabilized the entire region for at least another generation to come.

PS - I have read LeGuin extensively - what story are you referring to?
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline derezzed

  • * Destiny Supporter
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I'm going to keep this brief and overly simplified.   


This problem is not perceptibly improving.  If anything, we are simply becoming more aware of a problem that, until recently,  has been depressed by sociopolitical forces. 

I'm going to use a clumsy metaphor to argue my point.  In much the same way that you can force two identical magnetic poles together, uniformly oppressive governments and/or very strong national identities can artificially "nurture" an environment that allows subcultures of different ideologies to exist within close proximity of each other or even intermingle.  When you release the magnets, they repel each other.  When an oppressive  government collapses or a nation's identity changes or weakens, the force that suppresses these groups'  differences decreases and these subcultures' ability to express themselves increases and they tend to repel each other.   But there is no easy way to resolve this tension.  These people are geographically, economically, and socially entrenched next to each other. 


When people have the freedom to express themselves that's when schisms are more likely to  occur.  When the Soviet Union collapsed, an ethnic clash developed between the Serbians and the Croatians.  When African governments collapse, campaigns of genocide develop.


I think modern society functions as well as it does because most people are under the impression that the rest of society shares their same values or, at least, lacks evidence that most people within their own society hold ideologies that differ significantly from their own.


The Internet makes it easier for people to express themselves and learn that much of society does not share their exact same beliefs.   It also makes it easier to aggregate with people who do share the same values and beliefs and avoid people who do not agree with them, who do not challenge them to question their beliefs, etc. This reduces exposure to differing ideas that can cause people to reevaluate, and possibly revise, their own ideas, and widens the gap between ideologies.


Caring for the poor goes beyond protecting our society from an uprising.   We have a moral obligation not to exploit people or to seek to benefit by ignoring social costs.  Yet, businesses and governments routinely do this.   No, I am not anti-capitalist.

I agree that there is no guarantee that our civilization will persist.   The Americas are dotted with the ruins of civilizations that quit.

[ quote author=fohat.digs link=topic=67619.msg1592088#msg1592088 date=1421162413]
@ derezzed

Ultimately, my point is that things aren’t likely to change unless we improve our efforts to understand other cultures (especially ones whose ideas don’t align with our own) and recognize that cultural differences, political forces, ideological forces, and many other factors can interfere with our ability to productively engage in conversation with other cultures.

I would submit that "we" (the so-called Developed World) would be relatively (and I use that word with trepidation) more open to "productively engage in conversation with other cultures" if there was any potential for resolution or cooperation.

The problem seems intractable to me, modern secular and traditional fundamentalist cultures have irreconcilable differences. As much as I would like to see more openness and transparency everywhere in the world, for the present it seems like we would benefit most from leaving each other alone as much as possible.

PS - I have read LeGuin extensively - what story are you referring to?
[/quote]

@fohat.digs
That is why I qualified my paragraph with "Or not."  Some people's ideologies oppose change because those ideologies define themselves as perfect solutions.

Also, you should direct your question to berserkfan.  The only LeGuin I have read is Earthsea.

Offline jacobolus

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Pretty sure the Le Guin story these kiddos are talking about is The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas.

Offline fohat.digs

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The Internet makes it easier for people to express themselves and learn that much of society does not share their exact same beliefs.   It also makes it easier to aggregate with people who do share the same values and beliefs and avoid people who do not agree with them, who do not challenge them to question their beliefs, etc. This reduces exposure to differing ideas that can cause people to reevaluate, and possibly revise, their own ideas, and widens the gap between ideologies.

And this is why the Google "filter bubble" and similar mechanisms are so extremely harmful to society.

"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline engicoder

  • Posts: 721
  • Location: North Carolina
Muslims are generally in conflict over issues of modernity, and they have to deal with everything that the Westerners had to deal with from the time Martin Luther King nailed his theses to the time that Italy disestablished Roman Catholicism as an official religion, except in a compressed timeframe.

Wrong Martin Luther....me thinks.
   

Offline iri

  • Posts: 1031
  • Location: England
maybe mr. King nailed something too?
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline fohat.digs

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  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Dr Martin Luther King, Jr nailed a lot of things 40 years ago.
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30