Author Topic: Where to find 4.5 space bars?  (Read 3365 times)

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Offline mecano

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Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« on: Wed, 14 January 2015, 09:37:16 »
Searching for KBT Pure Pro.
SP used to have some but can't locate them anymore.

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 14 January 2015, 09:40:27 »
Have you tried customer support?
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Offline DrHubblePhD

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 14 January 2015, 10:08:32 »
I have a spare white one I don't need if your interested.

Offline mecano

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 14 January 2015, 10:37:59 »
Thank you for the kind offer drhubblephd,
I should have been more precise in my post as I am looking forward a grey/blue/magenta one to complement possible leftovers buy of the GB Deep Space set.

@FrostyToast no I didn't already, was waiting for more feedback from KBT Pure Pro users.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 15 January 2015, 13:52:21 »
Thank you for the kind offer drhubblephd,
I should have been more precise in my post as I am looking forward a grey/blue/magenta one to complement possible leftovers buy of the GB Deep Space set.

@FrostyToast no I didn't already, was waiting for more feedback from KBT Pure Pro users.

The only thing I can offer you is an SA profie 4.5u.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mecano

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 02:36:36 »

The only thing I can offer you is an SA profie 4.5u.

That would be great as I plan moving/trying to SA/DSA! Where? How?

Have you tried customer support?

Just did it, they are not selling overstocks anymore and don't have in stock.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 06:41:46 »

The only thing I can offer you is an SA profie 4.5u.

That would be great as I plan moving/trying to SA/DSA! Where? How?

Have you tried customer support?

Just did it, they are not selling overstocks anymore and don't have in stock.

Most of my keycaps are here. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62921.0
I should be able to build you just one set of SA blanks for a Poker/ small keyboard needing 4.5u spacebar if you're not fussy about colors.

Overstocks - I'm pretty sure they used to have an inventory, but now with one crucial employee on maternity leave they may have no one to handle. If you're not in a hurry, wait a year.  :p
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mecano

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 08:16:04 »
Thanks for the offer Berserkfan, I'm not too in a hurry; planning a SA and/or DSA GB set but guess all will come without 4.5 space bar.
You really took the time to sort all these caps, when I'll be in need I know where to look now ;)

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 08:25:26 »
Thanks for the offer Berserkfan, I'm not too in a hurry; planning a SA and/or DSA GB set but guess all will come without 4.5 space bar.
You really took the time to sort all these caps, when I'll be in need I know where to look now ;)

MY personal opinion is that on small keyboards (which yours almost certainly is seeing that it has 4.5u space and you are not Japanese), one should not go for SA profile. SA is too high and forces you to use a wrist rest and other bulky things thus defeating the purpose of having a small keyboard that you can carry around.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 09:24:14 »
So, not to pour salt in a wound, but I made these remarks here:

* KBT Pure Pro - a very unfortunate keyboard design. As someone who designs and builds keyboards myself, I can tell you without hesitation that this is one of the worst keyboard designs I've ever encountered. If you purchased the Pure Pro, it's my opinion that the folks at Vortex duped you into buying their terrible product, which they dubbed with the "Pure" moniker in order to try and capitalize on a very good previous design. Marketing bait and switch, as it were.

I feel the need to follow up to those remarks, and this seems like a good place for it.

When one is looking to purchase a new mechanical keyboard, many factors are weighed in the decision of which model to purchase. There are a myriad of options with all the keyboards on the market right now, and sometimes it can seem almost overwhelming. Then you make a choice, and upon receipt of your new pride and joy, you realize that there may exist shortcomings that you never noticed during your research before purchase. One of the shortcomings that most people fail to consider (usually because they are inexperienced, and simply don't recognize it as a shortcoming) is the inclusion of non-standard sized keys on a keyboard. What I consider "standard" are the well-known ANSI and ISO keyboard layouts. Now, sometimes, when designing a keyboard it is necessary to make compromises with regard to key sizing, due to design constraints. Take for example my own JD40 keyboard. The design of the JD40 was made around the decision to have a 4-row by 12-column keyboard layout. That necessitates some compromises in the design when it comes to key sizing, because I was trying to "fit a 60% peg into a 40% hole," as it were.

Now, mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, like you and I, are a special breed. We are not content with "stock" anything. We, especially those of us here, are modders and hackers, geeks of the highest order. While non-standard keys are no concern at all to the user of a typical rubber dome keyboard, they can be a thorn in the side to those of us who are constantly changing the keycaps we put on our beloved keyboards. How can we be expected to live with stock keycaps, when we take the time to do things like modify the very switches under those keycaps, by lubing them and replacing the stock springs with custom made units from Korea?

In contrast to some of the more standard 60% designs like the Poker X, Poker II, and the Pure before it, the Pure Pro, on the other hand, makes compromises with regard to key sizing  seemingly for one purpose only -- the inclusion of dedicated cursor arrows on a 60% keyboard. While this seems like an admirable goal, it forces major compromises in the key sizing, which to most enthusiasts are simply not acceptable. If you ever intend to replace the stock keycaps on your Pure Pro, you are going to be hard pressed to find replacements which fill fit all the non-standard keys on that keyboard. If those compromises are necessary to accommodate dedicated cursor arrows on a 60% keyboard, then inclusion of the arrows is simply not worth the trade-offs, in my opinion. You are better off with cursor arrows being assigned to a function layer on some other set of keys.


TL;DR - the inclusion of dedicated cursor arrows is not worth the trade off of so many non-standard key sizes, which precludes changing the stock keycaps to better aftermarket replacements.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 16 January 2015, 10:35:35 »
So, not to pour salt in a wound, but I made these remarks here:

* KBT Pure Pro - a very unfortunate keyboard design. As someone who designs and builds keyboards myself, I can tell you without hesitation that this is one of the worst keyboard designs I've ever encountered. If you purchased the Pure Pro, it's my opinion that the folks at Vortex duped you into buying their terrible product, which they dubbed with the "Pure" moniker in order to try and capitalize on a very good previous design. Marketing bait and switch, as it were.

I feel the need to follow up to those remarks, and this seems like a good place for it.



JD, your words should be turned into a sticky that all new keyboard designers be forced to read before they even start designing.

I do a facepalm everytime I see a noob designer cook up something for which there are no easy keycap options.

I feel it insane to have extra-big cursor keys. I am living my life happily with 1x space keys and return keys.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mecano

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 17 January 2015, 09:55:42 »
MY personal opinion is that on small keyboards (which yours almost certainly is seeing that it has 4.5u space and you are not Japanese), one should not go for SA profile. SA is too high and forces you to use a wrist rest and other bulky things thus defeating the purpose of having a small keyboard that you can carry around.

Words of knowledge and wisdom, thanks for these.
So I went and browsed the SP profiles documentations (great sources).
While the height difference with OEM seems negligible on paper, once converted in angle it is not indeed.
But I've been using laptops with chicklets for so long now (where there are close to no angle and wrists are always on contact) that I'm afraid even only the height of the case (poker like one) won't allow me to type correctly without a rest pad. And when I float type my little finger attach by it own will to the side of the caps lock key, so...
In my case the choice for 60% was not mobility (even if after trying this mechanical, I'll surely bring it along in my travels, damn it's so nice to type on this) but to gain a little desk estate and first to reduce distance to the trackball.


I feel it insane to have extra-big cursor keys. I am living my life happily with 1x space keys and return keys.

Wow 1x space keys sounds insane, guess I would need at least 2... I have no problem with 1x shift, backspace, enter (turned the right shift just under the Enter key which really outputs 'return' :/ into an enter key), alt, ctrl.... though.


So, not to pour salt in a wound, but I made these remarks here:

* KBT Pure Pro - a very unfortunate keyboard design. As someone who designs and builds keyboards myself, I can tell you without hesitation that this is one of the worst keyboard designs I've ever encountered. If you purchased the Pure Pro, it's my opinion that the folks at Vortex duped you into buying their terrible product, which they dubbed with the "Pure" moniker in order to try and capitalize on a very good previous design. Marketing bait and switch, as it were.

I feel the need to follow up to those remarks, and this seems like a good place for it.

When one is looking to purchase a new mechanical keyboard, many factors are weighed in the decision of which model to purchase. There are a myriad of options with all the keyboards on the market right now, and sometimes it can seem almost overwhelming. Then you make a choice, and upon receipt of your new pride and joy, you realize that there may exist shortcomings that you never noticed during your research before purchase. One of the shortcomings that most people fail to consider (usually because they are inexperienced, and simply don't recognize it as a shortcoming) is the inclusion of non-standard sized keys on a keyboard. What I consider "standard" are the well-known ANSI and ISO keyboard layouts. Now, sometimes, when designing a keyboard it is necessary to make compromises with regard to key sizing, due to design constraints. Take for example my own JD40 keyboard. The design of the JD40 was made around the decision to have a 4-row by 12-column keyboard layout. That necessitates some compromises in the design when it comes to key sizing, because I was trying to "fit a 60% peg into a 40% hole," as it were.

Now, mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, like you and I, are a special breed. We are not content with "stock" anything. We, especially those of us here, are modders and hackers, geeks of the highest order. While non-standard keys are no concern at all to the user of a typical rubber dome keyboard, they can be a thorn in the side to those of us who are constantly changing the keycaps we put on our beloved keyboards. How can we be expected to live with stock keycaps, when we take the time to do things like modify the very switches under those keycaps, by lubing them and replacing the stock springs with custom made units from Korea?

In contrast to some of the more standard 60% designs like the Poker X, Poker II, and the Pure before it, the Pure Pro, on the other hand, makes compromises with regard to key sizing  seemingly for one purpose only -- the inclusion of dedicated cursor arrows on a 60% keyboard. While this seems like an admirable goal, it forces major compromises in the key sizing, which to most enthusiasts are simply not acceptable. If you ever intend to replace the stock keycaps on your Pure Pro, you are going to be hard pressed to find replacements which fill fit all the non-standard keys on that keyboard. If those compromises are necessary to accommodate dedicated cursor arrows on a 60% keyboard, then inclusion of the arrows is simply not worth the trade-offs, in my opinion. You are better off with cursor arrows being assigned to a function layer on some other set of keys.


TL;DR - the inclusion of dedicated cursor arrows is not worth the trade off of so many non-standard key sizes, which precludes changing the stock keycaps to better aftermarket replacements.

I'm very glad you took the time to respond, thanks for this.

The really bad move in my case was to go azerty ISO, because in the end, and for now, I found ANSI US qwerty the most intellectually satisfying layout for coding (if you except the size of the backslash key) so I had to change caps, this and wanting to mimic the macbook pro layout I'm so used to.
Yes maybe arrows are evil in the end, I made this choice based on shortcuts I'm used to for some programs, some already involving 2 modifiers so it sounded like less hassle, especially when some keyboards have only one FN key on the right side. Now it maybe looks even more stupid as I do 98% of text editing in vim where these keys are useless. Maybe I should have considered changing these shortcuts... or turn on one of Karabiner vim mode to have vim shortcuts System wide.
Anyway, the jump to the mechanicals was already been quiet a journey! I may look into JD45, GH60 or such in the future.
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 January 2015, 09:58:09 by mecano »

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 17 January 2015, 10:17:29 »
Mecano

One possibility is to consider the TEX. Then your hand won't even need to move to the trackball.

IIRC the trackpoint TEX with aluminium casing was only $160 (you've got to check with the other people on this forum because I only use matrix keyboards now.)
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mecano

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 17 January 2015, 10:24:52 »
I have suspicions about trackpoints since the use of one on a Toshiba laptop in the 90's.
The Miniguru surely looks cool as well, problem is to able to try one (and my 4 left modifiers need).
How are matrix ? I almost went the typematrix way before going with the Pure Pro.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 17 January 2015, 16:56:55 »
I have suspicions about trackpoints since the use of one on a Toshiba laptop in the 90's.
The Miniguru surely looks cool as well, problem is to able to try one (and my 4 left modifiers need).
How are matrix ? I almost went the typematrix way before going with the Pure Pro.

Mine are straightforward. I use Tipro/ Cherry RC128BM. Alpha clusters to left and right, numpad in the middle. My macro keys at the top, arrow cursors on the first row.

Am quite satisfied, so I have stopped looking for new layouts. At most I keep an eye on new products and classifieds for gadgets.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mecano

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Re: Where to find 4.5 space bars?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 17 January 2015, 17:53:35 »
How are matrix ?
Mine are straightforward.

 :D

I use Tipro/ Cherry RC128BM. Alpha clusters to left and right, numpad in the middle. My macro keys at the top, arrow cursors on the first row.

Am quite satisfied, so I have stopped looking for new layouts. At most I keep an eye on new products and classifieds for gadgets.

wow… 128 keys, you sure have a need for macros! Any luck to see pictures somewhere?