Author Topic: Which fingers go where - some random thoughts  (Read 13162 times)

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Offline Rajagra

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 04:33:17 »
I can't get over how strange the conventional way of typing is, being angled asymmetrically and encouraging twisting of the left hand. So I drew a few diagrams...

First the conventional way:

The angle of the keys on the right seems to promote comfortable use by the right hand, justifying the staggered rows. But the left side has completely the opposite effect, completely blowing that argument out of the water. You could rotate the whole keyboard clockwise a bit, but that's a poor solution to a pretty fundamental design flaw.

What if we just use different fingers for some of the keys?:

This actually isn't too bad. But it does mean learning the new layout. And if you're going to learn a new format, you may as well learn a real new format like Dvorak or Colemak. Even so, this might be useful to people who move between machines a lot.

What if we try to preserve which fingers hit which keys, but move those letters for comfort?:

Not too bad, but some important punctuation had to move. And it still requres learning.

How about doing the same to a ISO keyboard?:

The extra key gives more flexibility. I think this layout is much better than the modified ANSI one.

Would it be worth remapping the keys, swapping keycaps and adjusting to such a layout? Probably not, unless you only ever use one computer, and really want to stick with QWERTY. Changes like this ideally need to be done in hardware, at least to some extent.

Like I said at the start, just some random thoughts, I haven't reached any stunning conclusions.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 August 2009, 05:17:15 by Rajagra »

Offline keyb_gr

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 06:57:25 »
I might give the modified ISO a shot on the G80-3000HAD (keycaps are easy to pull there). I hope MS Keyboard Layout Creator can import some existing layout.

Why did you post this in off topic though?
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #2 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 08:23:29 »
Well, it's not about any keyboard, and it's not a keyboard mod. There isn't a typing forum. So it didn't really fit anywhere else. I'm a bit pedantic. :-)

Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #3 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 08:24:51 »
Good thinking!!!  :)

The only thing necessary in my opinion, is to use an ISO keyboard (that is, with the SC056 key at the lower middle) and move ZXCVB one step to the left. This is the recommended option for Colemak users with that key on their keyboard.

This won't affect the Q and W keys but that doesn't matter as they're rare and not hard to hit anyway. It's the awkward stretches for ZXCVB that badly needed fixing. The best part is that you don't have to change your fingering for any keys, so it's hella easy to learn! Heartily recommended for absolutely everybody.

For Windows users, I can provide a registry hack to effectuate this change:
Code: [Select]

REGEDIT4

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout]
; The next line maps ZXCVB_ <- _ZXCVB (where '_' is the VK_102 key)
&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,07,00,00,00,2c,00,56,00,2d,00,2c,00,2e,00,2d,00,2f,00,2e,00,30,00,2f,00,56,00,30,00,00,00,00,00
; The next line removes all scancode remappings
;&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=-

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Keyboard Layout]
&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=-

; Numbers are LittleEndian (0x12345678 -> 78,56,34,12)
; ---------------------------------------------------------------------
; Bytes       Meaning
; ---------------------------------------------------------------------
; 00 00 00 00 Version info (usually zero)
; 00 00 00 00 Flags (usually zero)
; 07 00 00 00 # of entries (# of mappings +1 for the terminator)
; 2c 00 56 00 The VK_102(0056) key now sends a 'z'(002c) code
; 2d 00 2c 00 The 'z'(002c) key now sends a 'x'(002d) code
; 2e 00 2d 00 The 'x'(002d) key now sends a 'c'(002e) code
; 2f 00 2e 00 The 'c'(002e) key now sends a 'v'(002f) code
; 30 00 2f 00 The 'v'(002f) key now sends a 'b'(0030) code
; 56 00 30 00 The 'b'(0030) key now sends a VK_102(0056) code
; 00 00 00 00 Null terminator (always zero)


Use at your own discretion. On keyboards where the keycaps come off (i.e., most if you're careful) I usually move the ZXCVB and the SC056 key around to show the change. If you're one of many users on a computer you can skip that - and also do the registry hack per-user - but the fun thing is that 'regular' hunt-and-peck typists will adapt to the change without thinking... and most of them will in my experience not even notice it!!!

I've ordered a 105-key SpaceSaver with a US layout (I wanted the tenkeyless non-existent one, of course...). Nuff said.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline timw4mail

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 11:35:46 »
The only time that I find the current layout weird is when typing two letters in the middle two rows, one of t,g,b,y,h,n. The overlap feels kind of strange, but other than that, I'm not sure at this point that I'd want to change layout.

Old habits die hard, you know.
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Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #5 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 14:50:38 »
Quote from: Rajagra;108843
Well, it's not about any keyboard, and it's not a keyboard mod. There isn't a typing forum. So it didn't really fit anywhere else. I'm a bit pedantic. :-)

C'mon. This is basically a keyboard layout discussion that would fit into the regular keyboard forum just fine.

Anyway, I just did a bit of key reordering based on your modified ISO. I handled the top letters differently, and the numbers row remained unchanged.
The result: The QWERTÜ layout (based on regular German ISO layout, obviously):
^1234567890ß´
QWERTÜZUIOP+
ASDFG#HJKLÖÄ
YXCVB<-NM,.
As you can see, the hands are moved apart a bit on average.

Next up is creating the layout for Windows. Thinking of moving around the various brackets a bit, too - [] might go to AltGr + 1/4, and {} might move to AltGr + 5/6. Their default placement is pure idiocy (AltGr + 8/9 and 7/0), no fun for programming. Maybe I'll shift the backslash (AltGr + ß) and forward slash (Shift-7) around a bit, too.

Other German specific modern-day layouts I stumbled across:
Neo
RISTOME
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Offline JBert

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 15:08:38 »
Interesting as this may be, it takes quite some willpower to actually go and change your keyboard layout.

Learning a new one is hard enough as it is, slightly modifying your current layout may be maddening at first.
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Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #7 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 16:34:27 »
My dear fellow steam machine tweakers,

I have apparently stumbled over an unexpected difficulty with MSKLC: The build does not work. What do I need for that, some MSVC++ or such I guess? Or would anyone with functional build mind helping me out?

I guess there we have the reason why MSKLC is not commonly discussed...
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 August 2009, 17:46:22 by keyb_gr »
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Offline Rajagra

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 16:56:46 »
Quote from: webwit;108937
Ditch your steam machine, switch to electricity.


I just found out that a new version of the DataHand has gone into production. Awesome!

Quote from: keyb_gr;108948
My dear fellow steam machine tweakers,

I have apparently stumbled over an unexpected difficulty with MSKLC: The build does not work. What do I need for that, some MSVC++ or such I guess? Or would anyone with functional build mind helping me out?

I guess there we have the reason why MSKLC is not commonly discussed...


Validating the layout gave some warnings...
Code: [Select]
   WARNING: } (U+007d) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_6, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_0, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: { (U+007b) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_7, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_5, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: [ (U+005b) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_8, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_1, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: ] (U+005d) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_9, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_4, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: / (U+002f) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_OEM_MINUS, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_7, ShiftState 'Shift').
    WARNING: \ (U+005c) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_OEM_4, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_OEM_PERIOD, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: 'y' defined on OEM_102 (Base) but not defined elsewhere. This key may not be present on all keyboards.
    WARNING: 'Y' defined on OEM_102 (Shift) but not defined elsewhere. This key may not be present on all keyboards.
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '0' and '=' (VK_0, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '1' and '!' (VK_1, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '2' and '&quot;' (VK_2, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '3' and '§' (VK_3, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '4' and '$' (VK_4, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '5' and '%' (VK_5, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '6' and '&' (VK_6, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '7' and '/' (VK_7, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '8' and '(' (VK_8, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '9' and ')' (VK_9, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '#' and ''' (VK_H, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '+' and '*' (VK_OEM_PLUS, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '.' and ':' (VK_OEM_MINUS, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between ',' and ';' (VK_OEM_PERIOD, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between 'ß' and '?' (VK_OEM_4, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').


I changed some of the "Caps=Shift" settings and managed to compile it.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 August 2009, 17:30:05 by Rajagra »

Offline Rajagra

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 11 August 2009, 17:50:22 »
You should have tried this on the Boscom, it's the keyboard equivalent of sawing a lady in half:
Quote
Cutting the plastic frame of the keyboard required slower blade speeds. My initial cut -- all the way across the keyboard -- resealed itself due to the heat of the blade. It wasn't even noticeably weakened, though I'd passed a blade completely through it. It was kind of surreal. A slower blade speed did the job.

Offline DreymaR

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 12 August 2009, 02:54:32 »
Quote from: JBert;108924
Interesting as this may be, it takes quite some willpower to actually go and change your keyboard layout.

Learning a new one is hard enough as it is, slightly modifying your current layout may be maddening at first.


Have you actually tried that, or are you guessing? Because I have. The consensus over at the Colemak forum is that the fewer keys you have to move the easier it is to learn - and it feels fairly 'expontential' too! I have learnt Dvorak, I have learnt Colemak (much less keys moved than Dvorak) and I have learnt the 'Comfort' shift. The former two did require a major effort (keep in mind that I had to learn Colemak coming from Dvorak instead of from QWERTY as it 'should be'...); the latter not at all.

I learnt the Bottom Half Row 'Comfort' Left Shift in almost no time. I was surprised at how easy it was to adapt to, since no fingering had to change but merely the angle you hit the keys at. If you think about it, you can probably type on a few different keyboards where the keys aren't exactly alike - my IBM M has a longer space bar so I have to hit the AltGr key differently for instance. It isn't hard to adapt to and after a few tries you don't think about it anymore. The only thing that took a little while to learn for me was switching back and forth without thinking. That took a few weeks, but not really an effort.

This experience inspired me to create a transitional layout so that you can learn Colemak in two separate steps instead of all at once - the Tarmac Transitional Colemak layout! I obviously haven't tried that since I already knew Colemak by then, but at least one other guy did and he absolutely loved it. That obviously doesn't count for a lot since one guy doesn't make a statistic, but I think it feels right.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline DreymaR

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 12 August 2009, 03:03:22 »
Quote from: webwit;108937
Ditch your steam machine, switch to troll powa.


Fixed. Isn't your shtick getting old by now, webwit?  :)

On a more serious note: I'm very unsure about that board. As mentioned before, I feel that sideways finger motion would be stressful so that much of the gain might go away; since I haven't tried it I'll not pass any judgement but I'm sceptical.

More importantly though, using that board would be expensive - and incompatible with all the hardware we have at my workplace. I'm not going to lug a keyboard around to type on, even if it's a nice one! My Colemak layout on the other hand, allows me to type with comfort and runs portably anywhere I can get net or USB access. That's almost everywhere I go.

While we're on the topic of tweaking things better: Maybe a Colemak-based DataHand would be even better than a QWERTY-based one? I'd be surprised if it weren't. It's possible that same-hand rolls that are so nice on a normal keyboard wouldn't sit well with the DataHand however, in which case Dvorak might be a better option because that has less rolls and more hand alteration instead.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 August 2009, 03:06:27 by DreymaR »
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Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #12 on: Wed, 12 August 2009, 03:11:21 »
Quote from: Rajagra;108954
I changed some of the "Caps=Shift" settings and managed to compile it.
You know what's funny? Here on my comp at university (with VC++ .NET 2003 on Win2k), your version would just hang the build for minutes until I killed the builder EXE, while mine compile without issue (warnings aside).
Maybe I should have mentioned that I saved these with MSKLC 1.3, as 1.4 had some display issues.

I'll tweak things some more and upload the result...

EDIT: Done.

The excitingly named "Deutsch (Klammern)" (DtAltGr) is a regular German layout that adds () on AltGr+1/4, {} on AltGr+5/6, [] on AltGr+Ö/Ä and \/ on AltGr+./-, in order to (hopefully) get these into more comfortable positions (the default ones are a major weakness of the default layout). These are also present in the "Deutsch (QWERTÜ)" layout (MyDtV2). I have not figured out what might be sensibly put on AltGr+^/´ yet.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 August 2009, 04:50:28 by keyb_gr »
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Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #13 on: Wed, 12 August 2009, 07:38:10 »
Ah, so you are. I'm too unattentive. Not only do you have mere electricity, but Tesla-delivered high-power anbaric goodness!  ;)

Are same-hand rolls comfortable with the DataHand?

I'd like to try one out, but I don't suppose that'll happen soon. The time I go freaky and get some radically different hardware will be the time I start typing chorded instead I feel. And that won't happen soon either I suppose.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline JBert

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« Reply #14 on: Wed, 12 August 2009, 15:36:43 »
I'm intrigued, although the price put my feet back on the ground.
And of course, it's not meant for gaming - although that's negligible considering it is more of work-related thing.

Now regarding the use of colemak, can you program the device itself to send the right scan codes no matter what machine you plug it in or does it need a custom windows key layout as usual?
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Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #15 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 06:25:40 »
Quote from: webwit;109223
You can buy a Dvorak chip for the hand.


OMGWTFBBQ, The Hand?!



Try pestering them for a Colemak chip if you haven't already. Applying the pressure liberally and at all turns feels right.  :)  Do you know what kind of chip this is, by the way?
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Offline watduzhkstand4

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« Reply #16 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 07:08:14 »
wow I just realized how much I feel bad for my pinky. It is responsible for so many keys and yet it's the weakest finger.
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Offline iMav

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 08:40:01 »
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;109402
wow I just realized how much I feel bad for my pinky. It is responsible for so many keys and yet it's the weakest finger.
Well, how weak the finger is shouldn't really dictate how much it is used (assuming it is strong enough to depress its assigned keys without strain).  
 
Thumbs are probably the strongest fingers, and I certainly don't want mine flying all over the keyboard.  ;)

Offline o2dazone

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 08:58:23 »
Thumbs aren't fingers, wise guy ;)

Offline kode

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 11:13:16 »
Yes, I have friends who swear by the Kinesis keyboards which also makes more use of the thumbs. The idea isn't at all bad, really.

Offline JBert

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« Reply #20 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 15:20:26 »
Quote from: webwit;109443
I don't know what kind of chip it is, I'll check next time I open it up. Propably reprogrammable. I know they did custom jobs.
I certainly hope so!
A ~$1000 keyboard better be customizable...
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The storage list:
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Offline Shyfe

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 19:25:10 »
wow, you know just a few weeks ago when i was learning to type with homerow, i found it uncomfortble and was thinking the same exact thing how it should be symmetrical.

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Offline MsKeyboard

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« Reply #22 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 20:04:45 »
We used to have a huge box of these somewhere, from back in the day when we carried them.  Returns and such.  If there is any interest, I will look around for them.  Just PM Me......Can't guarantee the condition though

Offline MsKeyboard

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« Reply #23 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 20:19:58 »
It was hard enough selling them the first time, but maybe your right, being a collector and all.

Also, on that Kinesis Split board you had posted in the other thread, we sold our last one the other day in a yard sale, $20.  Probably should have found this forum earlier!

Maybe someone should start a museum or something.  It is absolutely amazing how many keyboards have been introduced when you take into account the cost and time in producing one.

Later...

Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #24 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 04:16:43 »
Some more on my QWERTÜ layout:

I wasn't really content with the bottom row, so shuffled around the keys again and ended up with:
The left shift had turned out not to be so practical for writing English where you need to access Y commonly, and putting - into the middle meant you could not type word combos with hyphens fluidly. Then it basically was a toss-up between . and , to go into the middle, and I went for the comma. So now it's only the comma that has moved to the left (displacing N and M one step to the right) when compared to standard QWERTZ.

I still have to introduce some better accent handling. (This would go into the "regular" layout, too.) Would be nice to have a complete set of accents for French (still missing cedille), Turkish and Czech (will have to look up things for the latter two). Lessee.

Think I'll make a web page, too.
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 August 2009, 05:04:16 by keyb_gr »
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Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #25 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 16:51:38 »
Quote from: keyb_gr;109835
Think I'll make a web page, too.

Tadaa...
Here it is (en allemand, unsurprisingly)

The downloads aren't working yet since I still have to build the current DLL files (in case anyone is wondering). Source files are attached.
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 August 2009, 17:48:20 by keyb_gr »
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Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 02:56:42 »
Layouts "Deutsch (erweitert)" and "Deutsch (QWERTÜ)" (v2) compiled and attached.
Docs (same link as b4, JFTR)
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Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #27 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 03:08:12 »
Quote from: keyb_gr;109835
Some more on my QWERTÜ layout


I really don't see the charm in that one. It has the '#', 'k' and 'z' in too prominent positions in my opinion, but the 'p' and 'n' in awkward ones. And it goes on. What are you aiming at?

I can see that, say, the normal Colemak layout isn't optimized for German but I'll wager it still does fairly well based on my analysis a while ago.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline keyb_gr

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 05:02:30 »
A little update on my customized layouts here.
As expected, I have not been using QWERTÜ much, but the "normal" extended layout has proven fairly indispensible.

Here's the current version. I finally found out how to make things work in Vista (and presumably 7), where it seems the installer is not too fond of UAC. Basically the DLL has to go to System32 and the contents of the respective .reg file have to be added to the registry. I have yet to test a 64-bit Windows.
Hardware in signatures clutters Google search results. There should be a field in the profile for that (again).

This message was probably typed on a vintage G80-3000 with blues. Double-shots, baby. :D

Offline AndrewZorn

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:16:27 »
if this exists, i wonder what other ridiculous typing styles exist


Offline DreymaR

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 20 November 2009, 03:52:51 »
Ripster, you are a sad sad person. Unfortunately, I'm a thousand times sadder still... for actually getting excited by this topic without having to misunderstand it!  :D
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline itlnstln

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Which fingers go where - some random thoughts
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 20 November 2009, 07:55:24 »
Quote from: ripster;134281
Very unfortunate you bumped the "Where Do Your Fingers Go?" thread. I got excited there for a second.

I was thinking I was going to see that "art" pic from webwit again.