why do they make keyboards with keypads anymore?

[Shyfe]

i mean after like 20 years surely someone would have noticed that no one actually uses these and they could make even more money if they sold them separately. i would say that people would also pay more for them but im not so sure that would be the case if tenkeyless was the norm.

[patrickgeekhack]

i mean after like 20 years surely someone would have noticed that no one actually uses these and they could make even more money if they sold them separately. i would say that people would also pay more for them but im not so sure that would be the case if tenkeyless was the norm.

Although a tenkeyless keyboard did cross my mind,  I don't necessarily agree with what you said. I think there are more people who actually use them than people who don't. If you code for a living, maybe you won't use the numerical keypad a lot, but there are a lot of jobs out there which still require them. For example, consider a manufacturing company. Such a company may have an IT department where the numerical keypads don't get used a lot. But, it will also have a credit department, a supply chain department, an accounting department, etc. These departments will use the numerical pad a lot because their employees spend more of their time entering numbers than anything else.

I think the same line of thinking applies to a lot of home users. Nowadays, most home users use their computers for pretty much everything from surfing to budgeting to banking. Entering a series of numbers with the decimal point or using the calculator intensively without the numerical keyboard is not the most pleasant thing to do.

From the computer manufacturers stand point, none of them want to take a risk of offering a tenkeyless keyboard because they may lose some sales. Most end users prefer to have more even if they may not need it just in case. My father likes to say that you can fit the content of a small fridge in a big fridge, but not the other way around.

[Shyfe]

surely people have realized that it's hard to center your keyboard and be centered to the monitor at the same time.

[patrickgeekhack]

surely people have realized that it's hard to center your keyboard and be centered to the monitor at the same time.

True. This is why I centre the main part of my keyboard vis-à-vis my monitor. This pushes my mouse away from me which made me consider a tenkeyless keyboard. But for people who really need the numerical keypads, this is the price to pay. Imagine entering numbers all day long and everyday using the number rows. It would not be very efficient, would it?

It's worse for 17" laptops with full-size keyboards. On these, you cannot move the keyboards.

[Shyfe]

it would be better if everyone purchased their own keypad as if you were a righty, you can place it your keypad on the left and thus have a centered keyboard.

[patrickgeekhack]

it would be better if everyone purchased their own keypad as if you were a righty, you can place it your keypad on the left and thus have a centered keyboard.

You're very persistent. I grant you that LOL. The tenkeyless would be a nightmare for the French where to enter number using the numerical keypad require the use of the SHIFT key.

True, purchasing a separate numerical keypads has its benefits. But, if most people are not willing to purchase a good keyboard and are perfectly happy with the ones which came with their computers, how many would be willing to buy a separate numerical keypad which is not cheap? Also, a separate numerical keypad means more wire which people seem to hate. And, from the manufacturers perspective, if everyone was selling a tenkeyless keyboard, offering one with a numerical keypad will set them aside and attract sales. The others would follow the idea.

Edit: And from a business point of view, cutting cost is a very big objective. One separate numerical keypad per user can add up in terms of $.

[patrickgeekhack]

I have actually thought about a design where keyboards could have sort of a slot on both ends, allowing you to slide on the numpad to either side, or leave it out entirely if you wanted. This would be the best of all worlds, really.

 I think Microsoft has one such model, but it's a rubber dome.

[iMav]

All of my M4's came with separate numpads which can easily be placed on either side of the keyboard.

[shrap]

Most people do not care about ergonomics, or how centered their keyboard is to their monitor. They will care more about a company "taking away" their numeric keypad, even though these people don't use them very often.

Keep in mind that most people's full size keyboards cost less than the separate numeric keypads they sell for notebook owners.

[cmr]

i like having a numeric keypad. i use it daily.

[Shyfe]

even better would be both the arrow keys and keypad on the left side. most people are righties so this would appeal to the mass market if they just explained it a little as most people probably dont even realize they aren't centered.

[cmr]

no, man, then i would have to reach across with my right hand to operate the numpad and arrow keys.

[Shyfe]

or just use your left hand.

[Rajagra]

I'm beginning to think the best solution for full-sized keyboards is to keep the num pad on the right but move the navigation keys to the left. It isn't the best layout, but is likely to be the only compromise the public wouldn't be up in arms over.

[cmr]

no, i don't want to use my left hand for any of that, just leave it alone........

[Manyak]

I'm beginning to think the best solution for full-sized keyboards is to keep the num pad on the right but move the navigation keys to the left. It isn't the best layout, but is likely to be the only compromise the public wouldn't be up in arms over.

I agree with this, and also include a second enter key on the left.

This way all shortcuts are in direct reach of your left hand as you're browsing the web. Your right hand on the mouse and your left hand on the navigation cluster

[Shuki]

I need the keypad in a lot of games that I play.

[kode]

For inputting numbers, I like the numpad a whole lot more than the numrow. When I log into my bank and make payments, for example, or when I shop online and need to input my debit card number, and so on. So for me it's very useful. It's not very much in the way for me when I don't use it either.

Also, I more or less only use the mouse when browsing the internets, but when I do, it's there on the left side of the keyboard (or the right, in some cases, it really doesn't matter much to me).

[quadibloc]

I know that when they took floppy drives out of the Macintosh, I thought it was a bad idea. An internal floppy drive for a PC costs perhaps $10, and if the manufacturer leaves it out, you can easily add one on many desktop models. With a Macintosh, external add-on floppy drives were at prices like $30-$100. Add-on numeric keypads, similarly, would be likely to be expensive.

Also, there are various ways to arrange the keyboard to be more compact even without removing the numeric keypad, and those haven't proven all that popular either.

[Bollwerk]

A Great example for that (at least in my opinion) is the G80-1800 or G81-1800.

You don't have to abdicate something and everything is in good reach. I really like this layout, but they are only available with MY- and black MX-switches.
(Or you have to search a lot in Asia.)

[itlnstln]

A Great example for that (at least in my opinion) is the G80-1800 or G81-1800.

This. I would kill for a G80-1800 with brown switches, especially if it didn't cost me a metric a*s-ton of cash to get it.
 
C'mon, majestouch, carry them for the Cherry lovers here.

[Korbin]

I would take a guess at the reason being momentum.

As someone else said, most people don't care about ergonomics.

The only reason to ever really use the numeric pad is to enter numbers when you don't have both hand available (like if the data entry person is talking on the phone). Other than that it is considered "healthier" to use the numbers on the top row.

Think about how old our input devices are in the first place. The qwerty layout was invented in the 1870's, despite the studies that seem to indicate (although not prove) that colemak and dvorak layouts are more comfortable/healthier.

The mouse was invented in the 70's yet touchpads and trackballs take up less space on the desk, and are considered to be the better alternatives for people that suffer from RSI.

The point being, humans are resistant to change, which is the reason why full keyboards, in the qwerty format as well as the mouse will be around for a very long time.

[patrickgeekhack]

I'm beginning to think the best solution for full-sized keyboards is to keep the num pad on the right but move the navigation keys to the left. It isn't the best layout, but is likely to be the only compromise the public wouldn't be up in arms over.

I would like this layout. Entering data horizontally in Excel would be so much easier. Right now, I using my left hand for the arrow keys and my right hand for the numerical keypad anyway.

The bottom line is, the manufacturers look at what the majority wants. Take a good random sample of users and ask who would prefer to have a tenkeyless keyboard. You'll have to look hard to find one. I've done a test around in the office and I have yet to find one person who would like a tenkeyless keyboard.

Like someone else has pointed out, we are very resistant to change. Otherwise, Dvorak would be the layout of choice. That being said, resistance to change is not always a bad thing. Imagine if there were 5 keyboards layout which are equally popular. You might not get the layout you want wth the switches you want. Right now, in most cases, the layout stays the same and you can pretty much get any switch you want.

Edit: We are probably some of the relatively very people who ask think about keyboards that much and who think about a better layout based on our own experience. But, the truth is most people don't care about keyboards. For most people a keyboard is a keyboard, as long as they can type on it, they are  happy.

[ch_123]

I'm beginning to think the best solution for full-sized keyboards is to keep the num pad on the right but move the navigation keys to the left. It isn't the best layout, but is likely to be the only compromise the public wouldn't be up in arms over.

Just thinking about it, you could make a similar arrangement with a Model F - you could map the F-keys on the left to arrow keys and the 'Home/End etc' block, and maybe go HHKB style by making the Caps lock an Fn modifier so that you'd get F keys with the number keys along the top.

[timw4mail]

I must be crazy...I've got an additional numpad on my computer (although it's 32 keys, with the right keyboard block, basically...) because the Model F doesn't have discrete arrow keys...and it has the math functions in the normal positions.

[InSanCen]

I must have my Numpad.

And what's all this "centering" of the keyboard. As long as it's there or thereabouts, what's the problem?

Seriously... I would say at the moment, my screen center is lined up with the QAZ row on my Keyboard...

But, I am used to multiple (3) monitor setups, so typing on a non-centered screen isn't a biggie for me.

[Bollwerk]

There is no problem centering it, but it consumes space probably needed for more freely mouse control.

So you have a larger distance between your main keyboard work area and the mouse.

[GreeN]

I use the Num pad religiously at work for tweaking all our orders and stock adjustments (I work in a supermarket!). I'd look like I was playing whack-a-mole if I tried using the Num row as fast as I can use the pad!

[microsoft windows]

I just don't get it...what's so bad about a number pad? 99.99% of computer users prefer the number pad. It makes data entry much easier.

Personally, I think the "ten-key-less" keyboards have a pretty lousy layout...why not just go back to the AT layout and take out the navigation keys which are already integrated into the number pad? That way, people with certain ergonomic needs could use the number pad when they need it but still have a mouse where they want.

Or, just use the mouse with your left hand. That doesn't cost $150...

[ch_123]

99.99% of computer users prefer the number pad.

I'd love to know where you got that number...

Personally, I think the "ten-key-less" keyboards have a pretty lousy layout...why not just go back to the AT layout and take out the navigation keys which are already integrated into the number pad?

Trust me, that layout is less than ideal when you actually have to use it.

[megarat]

why not just go back to the AT layout and take out the navigation keys which are already integrated into the number pad?

I agree with this.  There was a thread started perhaps 1-2 months ago about why there aren't more "nav-less" keyboards, and that you can still get a condensed layout without having to sacrifice the numpad.  That really struck a chord with me.

While I don't use the numpad much, I appreciate/prefer the functional elegance of having a dual-purpose block of keys that can accomplish either task.

[megarat]

Trust me, that layout is less than ideal when you actually have to use it.

Trust issues notwithstanding, can you illustrate why this is the case?

[Bollwerk]

Whatever. I know many people having a numpad but don't use it. They don't care as much as we do either.

I use the numpad at work more than the normal Layout. I use this thing
too.

So I have a really big keyboard (at work I use a G81-3000 aircraft carrier) between my mouse and my Space Pilot. I end up using only a G84-4100 with programmed CTRL-Layer for hotkeys, the Navigator and my mouse.

I'm using it at 400DPI so maybe that is a problem because I need space for handling it.

If I had a trackball that wouldn't be that much of a problem. Just can't ask my boss for a kensington trackball at the moment. Logitech is crap.

[InSanCen]

There is no problem centering it, but it consumes space probably needed for more freely mouse control.

So you have a larger distance between your main keyboard work area and the mouse.

right, gotcha...

I avoid tyhat one too... my mouse sits above my keyboard...

Yeah, I'm weird...:wink:

[ch_123]

Trust issues notwithstanding, can you illustrate why this is the case?

I say this based on usage of my Model F which has the aforementioned arrow-less arrangement. It's usable, but I find that constantly turning on/off numlock is a bit irritating. As a consequence of getting a laptop and using that a lot, I became acclimatized to entering numers in the main block of the keyboard, with the consequence that I now just use my Model F as a sort of pseudo-tenkeyless with the numlock off all the time.

Obviously YMMV, but my point is that the 'ignorant masses' will probably adjust to living without a numpad than having to deal with turning numlock on and off.

[Rajagra]

Trust issues notwithstanding, can you illustrate why this is the case?

The inverted-T arrows are much easier to hit while touch-typing, I guess. It's a shame the numeric 5 key doesn't act as down-arrow, that would help a bit. (I bet that somebody, somewhere would find a way to complain about that!)

Just can't ask my boss for a kensington trackball at the moment. Logitech is crap.

The cheapest ones - Kensington and Logitech - are surprisingly good. Low in features, but what they can do, they do well.

[patrickgeekhack]

I'd love to know where you got that number...



Trust me, that layout is less than ideal when you actually have to use it.

It may not be 99.9%, but I think more people prefer a numerical keypad over not having one. I see many users who connect a keyboard to their laptops because of this. To them it's a cheaper solution than getting a numerical keypad. If the numerical keypad was that useless, I'm pretty sure, keyboard manufacturers would stop including them. Think of it for a minute, the numerical keypad requires material. Every 4-5 of them use the same amount of plastic a tenkeyless keyboard. I would think that companies like HP and Dell which sell millions of computers would like to cut cost and not offering the numerical keypad. If they are still offering it, there must be a reason.

[cmr]

[patrickgeekhack]

A place where a tenkeyless will probably never become the norm is in the banking business. Imagine a bank employee using a tenkeyless keyboard all day long...I would hate to be one such employee.

[microsoft windows]

I'd love to know where you got that number...



Trust me, that layout is less than ideal when you actually have to use it.

I have an AT-style keyboard and use it on my Windows 95 computer. I really don't mind it since I like the navigation keys on the number pad better anyway.

I must admit I don't know if my statistic is perfect, but it's pretty accurate. Most people I know who use computers use the number pad.

And, if you don't happen to like the number pad, you can always buy a keyboard without one.

[patrickgeekhack]

Well, I hate to spoil this numpad support group thread but....

I really appreciate the extra room.

I'm not a supporter nor a hater of the numpad. The question of the OP was why have the manufacturers not realise that the numpad is not being used. I was just giving some reasons explaining why. If we don't look at all the users, then we may not see why. When I was coding for a living, I did not use the numerical keypad everyday, but I did use it a lot at times. But, I would say that I could live without one. However, my job has changed and I have had the chance to observe many different type of users and have seen that the numerical keypad is here to stay because some people do use it a lot.

[cmr]

besides, it's not as though there aren't major manufacturers experimenting with removing the numpad:



and of course this one is a piece of crap, but for those who want a good keyboard there are plenty of options without a numpad.

[Bollwerk]

Keyboard for the ignorant masses could be cheper without a numpad and bankers could use an extra numpad like the G80-3700 for example.

It is just better tu use because you have backslash and ESC and such things directly above it. It is programmable too even without software and it uses 4 Layers. On one Layer you can switch between [,] [.] [00] and [000] for decimal separator.

I can't thing of a better way for heavyusers, my included. (Ok, maybe MX-browns istead of blacks.)

[microsoft windows]

If removing te number pad was a success, computer manufacturers would have done that LONG ago.

[ch_123]

If removing te number pad was a success, computer manufacturers would have done that LONG ago.

What you are saying implies that it was unsuccessful, which begs the question - where has it been done before outside of laptops?

[patrickgeekhack]

I think numpad boards are here to stay.  The question why more manufacturers don't go for the extra bucks and make smaller keyboards is an interesting one though.

I think there are more factors at work on this issue. Sometimes, once you given people an option, it can become impossible to take it away without some kind of price to pay. After having given people the QWERTY layout, I think it's safe to say that there will be not big manufacturer which will start offering DVORAK instead.  The same applies to AZERTY keyboard layout in France.

Also, there is not just one manufacturer, so none of them want to take any risk. I think one of the very few players in the computer industry which has been brave enough to force its views on consumers has been Apple.

[o2dazone]

If the numerical keypad was that useless, I'm pretty sure, keyboard manufacturers would stop including them.

Just like adopting QWERTY right? I think with keyboards, not having it as a general keyboard would throw people off. A lot of people here have adopted the idea that it's ok not to have it, and while data entry might be really nice and cool, even entry level front end developer jobs (and I'm talking very entry level...no unobtrusiveness, no accessibility, no validation, etc) won't need the number pad. I'm on a computer for more than 12 hours a day, and have been for the passed 8 years, and the only thing I've "missed" since I switched to my HHKB is by hitting win+r, quickly typing in 'calc' and doing some quick math stuff with the number pad (and even then I still get it done, it's just a little slower). If my main job was data entry, then sure, I'd probably score a number pad. But it's not, in fact short of accountants, or dead end data plugging or converting big stacks of paper to a digital format (no offense if that's anyone's job), it's not really quite all that valuable.

I honestly think normal people's (not us) first reaction would be "wait...so I'm paying how much for half a keyboard?" and maybe for a lot of companies like Logitech and Microsoft, retooling for tenkeyless models wouldn't really be all that valuable in the end. Much better to just design the keyboard with it than have people gripe about it missing.

On top of all this, it's very tough to convince people that, if you're not using it, why have it? The way I type and navigate with my mouse has completely changed since I went to a Happy Hacking. I no longer have to type with my wrists off center. And I no longer have to adjust the pivot of my right elbow to reach my mouse. Everything just feels much more natural. It's not one of those "hmm, yes I can see that I should give it a try", it's more about just getting a tenkeyless model, and if you think you can really survive without it, then try to look optimistically at the benefits.

And if you're an accounting, or excel data entry PROFESSIONAL, or whatever else that would use the number pad, wouldn't you want an external one anyways? Being as it's probably a hell of a lot more comfortable having that positioned somewhere else than to the right of arrows?

I think people are just afraid of changing a layout too much because of it's familiarity, and losing it would make them work slower or less inefficient. Although, I can probably tell for the rare time that I would need the number pad, I save much more time by traveling less from my keyboard to mouse now that it's so close.

[o2dazone]

It's actually very telling about people using keyboards in the first place. Almost like a "fear" of change. Something like Colemak or Dvorak would suit fast typers (especially if they're writers), or data entry. Yet, that doesn't really seem to convince a lot of people. Maybe because it's easier to unlearn having a numpad than it is to restructure how you type.

I think in the end people are accustomed to keyboards coming with certain things. I've read reviews on crappy rubber domes where people complained how their previous keyboard had a volume knob and their current one doesn't. I can't imagine the type of problems not having a numpad would have. Although, if they made the tenkeyless models cheaper like they do with mechanicals, it would be worth it. Instead, most normal people resort to scissor switch laptop style keyboards for their non numpad compact needs. Take a look at airplane cockpit simulators. Almost all of them are dealing with a space crunch and either have an awkwardly huge keyboard in the way, or they've moved onto something more compact.

I think for Logitech and Microsoft to cover the costs of retooling, they'd have to charge MORE for a tenkeyless, rather than charging less. And no sane person (ie. not us) is going to pay more for less...especially when it comes to something as simple as a keyboard.

[patrickgeekhack]

I think people are just afraid of changing a layout too much because of it's familiarity, and losing it would make them work slower or less inefficient. Although, I can probably tell for the rare time that I would need the number pad, I save much more time by traveling less from my keyboard to mouse now that it's so close.

I would think that fear of change plays a big role for sure. I would probably get a numerical keypad if I was working exclusively on a laptop. Every night, I systematically record all the expenses I've made during the day as well as the ones made by my wife. I can get by without a numpad, but it's certainly more comfortable and faster with one.

I think for Logitech and Microsoft to cover the costs of retooling, they'd have to charge MORE for a tenkeyless, rather than charging less. And no sane person (ie. not us) is going to pay more for less...especially when it comes to something as simple as a keyboard.

I've seen the look on my friends' faces when I told them of my intention of getting a blank tenkeyless keyboard. The look was saying something like this: "You want to pay more to get less keys, and not marking? Are you nuts or something?"

[o2dazone]

haha
the good thing is that whether someone likes a numpad or someone doesn't like a numpad, no one is "wrong" in any sense - thankfully we have the option to choose - different strokes for different folks