Yay for me!! First Mechanical Keyboard

[Grizaptimus]

Hey there everyone!  I have been lurking on this board for some time, Investigating which keyboard to get.  I had narrowed it down to either a "Filco Majestouch" with the blue cherry's or the Unicomp EnduraPro.  Anyway after being deadlocked on these for quite some time it just so happened that my friend had scored like a bandit on all sorts of computery odds and ends.  While over there, low and behold what should I stumble on but a Dell AT101W in rather nice condition.  My friend being a nice guy decided to just up and give me the keyboard.  So here I am typing on my new AT as happy as a clam.

Compared to my old keyboard I have to say that I am very pleased!  However all this has done is made me more curious as to how the other keyboards feel.  As while most everyone seems to agree that the AT101W is a good keyboard.  Lots of those people seem to agree that the keyboard I was considering are better yet...

Poor me I think I may have caught the mechanical keyboard bug and will be more poor than ever from now on!

[huha]

Get the Endurapro.

I know you'll like it.

-huha

[Grizaptimus]

While I admit that I don't know any better as I have not been able to compare it to any other mechanical keyboards.  I can at least say compared to my old keyboard it is quite a step up.  While I haven't  had it all that long I don't seem to be having the problems that you described.

[wellington1869]

another vote for endurapro

you can always re-sell the boards if you dont like them.

[watduzhkstand4]

@ wellington
Just wondering, how does that HHKB compare to your all 45g 87u in the weight?

[bigpook]

the real black alps in the Dell are quite good. I have only had NIB Dell's to play with and its been  a real nice switch to type on. Especially when you put them in a filco tenless body.

If you can, get a unicomp spacesaver or endura pro if you like the track point. The unicomp keyboards are very nice examples of buckling springs.

If that still doesn't do it, then by all means get a filco with blue cherries.

I am up to three keyboards and can keep going : ) Don't sweat it though. If the keyboard bug bites, you will be getting them all anyways : ) But the above mentioned are a pretty good place to start.

[wellington1869]

@ wellington
Just wondering, how does that HHKB compare to your all 45g 87u in the weight?

good question, though I only had about 10 or 15 minutes in front of the HHKB in a starbucks, so I couldnt really say in terms of weight  I imagine the hhkb is lighter, though topre boards tend to be heavier than you expect.

I'm assuming by 'weight' you mean weight and not 'resistance'?

[microsoft windows]

Well, I'm glad you like your new keyboard.

[Grizaptimus]

True... True  I could resell if I don't like.

How loud is the Buckling Spring in comparison to the Cherry Blues anyway?

What would you guys say is the firmest or heaviest for mechanical switches (Do tend to like feeling some resistance and such)

@Windows:  Thanks i'm rather glad I like it myself

[quadibloc]

The IBM Model M keyboard is quite loud compared to nearly anything else, enough so that it might annoy people sitting next to you in a crowded office. Other mechanical switches, although they may still be audible, are much less of a concern in that respect.

[wellington1869]

The IBM Model M keyboard is quite loud compared to nearly anything else, enough so that it might annoy people sitting next to you in a crowded office. Other mechanical switches, although they may still be audible, are much less of a concern in that respect.

white alps are quite loud...  i'd argue they're louder than buckling springs.

also you can soften the buckling spring noise pretty easily with a spot of silicon grease on the springs. doesnt affect tactility if you dont overdo it.

the heaviest key i've ever tried was black cherries actually. M keys are maybe next heaviest;  but they're not debilitating or anything.

A lot of folks around here (including me) believe Endurapro/unicomp buckling springs are a tad lighter than original Ms.

[wellington1869]

blue cherries are relatively light, you might like those though. A lot of the younger folks seem to like them, according to ripster's latest rigged poll

I mean look, in the end, if you're serious about finding the keyboard that right for you, you'll find yourself buying and trying out each of the switches... there's really no way around that cuz only you can tell whats right for you.

Its a nice journey though, kinda fun. And you can really re-sell the ones you dont like, usually at cost or for very little loss. Especially if you buy used keyboards to begin with (which i'd recommend, for the cost savings up front).

Once you know your favorite switch(es), then you can decide which particular keyboard you want.

If you like resistance and tactility, basically I wouldnt get anything lighter than blue cherries. Brown cherries are lighter. Topres will feel lighter too.  Everything else is either the same or heavier.

The other consideration is noise. White alps and bs are considered relatively noisy. Blue cherries have a click but arent as noisy. If noise is a factor, I'd point to blue cherries next.  If noise isnt a factor, I'd highly recommend buckling springs.

[rdjack21]

I'm glad you like your first mechanical keyboard. I loved my first one as well but ended up really liking something completely different from where I started.

BEWARE THE KEYBOARD RED PILL - if you take it your wallet will hate you but your fingers will love you for it.

[wellington1869]

Its amazing to me that i'm back on the endurapro. I stray away from it regularly but its the only keyboard over the last 8 months that i've also reliably returned to, after straying.

I guess my topre review says it all. Its my reliable workhorse wife. I might get fool around elsewhere but she's the one I come home to

There's just nothing as comforting as its tactility and clicks when you're working those long hours.

[Rajagra]

I think the main reason some people aren't fond of the AT101 boards is simply that the switches are a bit bland. They have less tactile feel than some rubber dome keyboards. They make no special, satisfying sound.

But the fact remains they are good, solid keyboards that do their job well and last a long time.

My old example felt a bit rough, but I've cleaned it up and put some white lithium grease on the sliders, and it feels much better. Time will tell if it stays this smooth (or even improves?) but I'll soon have a NIB one to compare it to.

[wellington1869]

Not to me, it's MEATY!

prime rib  Angus burger.

>

[Grizaptimus]

My brain completely derailed...

[huha]

How loud is the Buckling Spring in comparison to the Cherry Blues anyway?

Louder, but less annoying. The blues produce a high-pitched click, whereas buckling springs' click has much more substance. Greens are a bit better, but they're not available in any standard keyboard (you have to modify one with blues for that)

What would you guys say is the firmest or heaviest for mechanical switches (Do tend to like feeling some resistance and such)

It really depends on what you want. From my personal experience, I think Fujitsu Peerless may be in for the "stiffest switch" award, which is why nobody likes them. The technology used is pretty slick, though. Fujitsu Peerless boards are really cheap to find, so if you're interested, you might as well try one.
Other than that, buckling springs can take a pounding and still feel great, so that's what I'd recommend. Real complicated white Alps aren't bad as well, and they do feel rather nice. Their availability in the US should be okay (not so much in Europe), but it's best to keep some spare switches handy, as they tend to have reliability problems from time to time.
MX greens look good on paper, but unless there's some really stupid coincidence going on and I haven't produced greens with my modification, their feel is better than blues, but still not as good as RCWAlps. Also, you'll have to open every switch to swap the spring.

If it doesn't need to be clicky, MX clears seem to be popular with those who happen to have them (I don't, which is somewhat of a shame). Their availability could be somewhat of a problem, though.
If it doesn't even have to be tactile, get yourself a keyboard with MX blacks. Key feel, however, seems to differ a lot between different keyboards. I haven't measured it, so I can't tell for sure, but I quite like my G80-11900 with blacks (it's not my favourite board of all time, mind you, but I sometimes use it for several days and also as a board for taking with me, as it's slightly compact), whereas the G80-3000 and G80-1000 didn't really feel good to me, although they used exactly the same switches (the 1000 is used, but my 3000s and 11900s were NIB). Blacks are linear and quite stiff, but they're reasonably quiet for a mechanical switch (not louder than any standard keyboard, and they don't rattle like the cheap rubber domes) and you can type on them--either by bottoming out or by learning how far to press before the key is activated (there's no tactility at this point). The stiff action there is actually helpful to avoid bottoming out.

-huha

[wellington1869]

Real complicated white Alps aren't bad as well, and they do feel rather nice.

agreed, i like them a lot - but thats because they're similar to bs in my view, with a 'Meaty' feel...

Their availability in the US should be okay (not so much in Europe),

well i dont know any board in current production that has them...whether in US or europe.  i'd get one if I knew of any.

[huha]

You can get used boards in the US without that much of a problem.
It's a bit different here, I couldn't find a RCWAlps board on ebay here, which is a pain, as the one I have has two bad switches.

Incidentally, how can Filco's "XM" switches be compared to real complicated Alps? The Zero tenkeyless does have quite a nice form factor and it's also reasonably cheap.

-huha

[wellington1869]

AFAIK XM''s are clones of white alps, which are both different from the 'real complicated' alps.
I tried 'real complicated' alps on the second version of the tactile pro 2 (which had controller problems). WIth version three they went with XM switches instead.
Sandy has a great website explaining all the alps differences. It might be in our wiki too.

[Grizaptimus]

Which keyboards are currently available that have either the Fujitsu Peerless or the MX clears? My Google-fu seems insufficient.

[D-EJ915]

Not really a fair comparison - the Dells AT101W NIB is a different beast.

I'd keep using it for a while and then see if you want to try lighter (like the blue cherries) or crisper (like the Unicomp).  The whole other thing is whether you want to try tenkeyless or not - experiment with not using the numpad.

the bottoming out always sucks on ALPS switches though

[keyb_gr]

Which keyboards are currently available that have either the Fujitsu Peerless or the MX clears? My Google-fu seems insufficient.

In terms of Fujitsu Peerless I don't think there have been any since the FKB47xx series which apparently ran out some time in the '90s.
In terms of clears, Ripster's wiki entry pretty much entirely covers the few available options - Cherry G80-3000LQCEU (don't think these are readily available outside Europe) and Deck Legend – 105 Keys Ice (tactile). You may have more luck getting browns, their lighter relatives.

the bottoming out always sucks on ALPS switches though

It definitely slows you down at least. Black Alps are not as bad as these clicky Acer modules and definitely feel like some pretty decent mechanical switches, but I like Cherry clears, blues or BS better in that regard.

[ch_123]

True... True  I could resell if I don't like.

How loud is the Buckling Spring in comparison to the Cherry Blues anyway?

What would you guys say is the firmest or heaviest for mechanical switches (Do tend to like feeling some resistance and such)

@Windows:  Thanks i'm rather glad I like it myself

Blues have a similar noise level to the Black Alps in your Dell, but they make a less pleasing noise. The Unicomp is louder, but makes a nice clacking noise. Both feel much nicer to type on than the Black Alps. If you want a firm switch, the Unicomp would be a better choice.

Really what you want is one of these...

[huha]

I don't see why he'd want a Model F--aren't they supposed to be lighter than current-production buckling springs?

As for Fujitsu Peerless--you don't want to spend much on a board with them. You probably don't want to spend anything at all. I got mine (new) for EUR 1 + shipping, which was quite okay. These boards are hard to use. The switch is way too stiff and the click action is there, but it's not fantastic. They're interesting boards, but I wouldn't pay much for one, because I think they suck a bit when trying to type.

If the sound of buckling springs (which is a really nice sound, and it goes along so well with typing) doesn't totally bother you, I'd suggest getting a Space Saver or a Customizer from Unicomp. Their pricing is good, the keyboards are totally worth it. The old Model Ms aren't neccessarily cheaper if you want them new/lightly used, you don't get windows keys (Unicomp also sell a 101-key version without windows keys if you so desire) and you'll need an adapter to use it with USB. If you don't want printed keycaps, just ask and they'll make you an unprinted version.

-huha

edit: I just remembered you were already looking at the Endurapro. Oh my ...
Anyway, if you have questions about the Endurapro, I should be able to answer most of them.

[ch_123]

I don't see why he'd want a Model F--aren't they supposed to be lighter than current-production buckling springs?

Somewhat lighter, but not Cherry/Topre light, something like 60-65g vs 65-70g for a membrane BS board. They also have far more pronounced tactility on the actuation point, probably the best of any switch I've tried.

I do admit though, due to rarity and the strange layout, they're not exactly the ideal keyboard for someone new to mechanical keyboards.

[Grizaptimus]

I am curious,  How difficult is it to change out the keyboards switches?  Is it possible to change switches between keyboards that do not use the same brand of switches.  for example putting cherry's into let's say a HHKB pro?

[huha]

I am curious,  How difficult is it to change out the keyboards switches?

Depends on the board, but generally: Very. You'll basically have to build a keyboard from scratch each time you'd like to do that.

Is it possible to change switches between keyboards that do not use the same brand of switches.

Depends. All Alps-type switches seem to be pin-compatible, so they can be interchanged with some soldering. Cherry's MX siwtches are probably the best switches to be changed. If they're not plate mounted (if you're in the US, buy the strange G80-3000 with chinese lettering, for example), you can open the actual switches with stupidly inexpensive tools (I used a bent paperclip) and exchange springs and plunger, which basically changes the actual switch. If you'd like a G80-3000 with MX greens, for example, you'd take one with blues and one with blacks and swap the springs. The other board would then most likely (not entirely sure yet, sorry!) feature MX reds.

for example putting cherry's into let's say a HHKB pro?

The keycaps don't fit and the actual switching technology is vastly different, so that doesn't make any sense at all. You'd have to change everything but the case for this to work.

-huha

[Grizaptimus]

Ya i didn't think it would be all that easy... Ohh well hope springs eternal i guess.

[microsoft windows]

To me, changing a keyboard's switches is more trouble than it's worth if it's more than 1 or 2 busted ones.

[iggysaps]

BEWARE THE KEYBOARD RED PILL - if you take it your wallet will hate you but your fingers will love you for it.

Darn, you guys must have forced me to take the KEYBOARD RED PILL.  Hehe.  I guess it started from typing "most durable keyboard" on google while using my adesso "crappy now" ergonomic keyboard, then encountering the fateful words "mechanical keyboard" which naturally led me to geekhack.  A few short months and 6 mechanical keyboards later I still am intrigued by the Topres, and HHKB Pro keyboards...good thing they cost a lot, or I would have bought them already...but if Unicomp comes out with a mini or tenkeyless version of BS, I am buying two, no ifs or buts allowed.