Author Topic: Is there a white alps board in current production?  (Read 6449 times)

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Offline Special K

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Is there a white alps board in current production?
« on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 12:09:52 »
In the past when I wanted to try a switch type, I bought a cheap/older/used keyboard that used the switch, knowing that if I liked it I could then buy a brand new keyboard that used the same switch.  For example, the Compaq MX11800 is an old, discontinued keyboard that uses the Cherry MX brown switch and can be purchased used relatively cheaply.

One switch type I have never tried is the white alps.  Based on my research, the two most popular boards with this switch type are:

Focus FK-2001
Northgate Omnikey 101

Both of these models are quite old and out of production.  If buy one of the boards and decide I like the white alps, is there a current production board out there I can buy that uses them?
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Offline Matias

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 12:34:35 »

Offline Xonar

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 13:21:51 »
You'll want to go for a board with Matias switches for sure, but for what it's worth there's also the Solidtek KB-6600 with White Alps. It's a decent board for $5, but you can't get them for that price anymore. They're all sold out on the site that was selling them for that much.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 15:00:20 »
The Focus FK-2001 used "complicated" Alps SKCM White (amongst various other switches) — these went out of production around 1996. The OmniKey series used SKCM Blue and White.

Matias keyboards used "simplified" Alps/Forward SKBM Grey and SKBM White, which officially went out of production in 2012.

"Officially."

See, a source told me more recently that Forward did in fact sell the SKBM tooling to Datacomp, and we know that Datacomp are selling Alps clone switches, but Datacomp have utterly refused to talk to me, and while people have subsequently observed their products at trade fairs (including a brochure showing the switch internals), all they've come back with is pathetic low-resolution photos (like we're still in the 90s when digital cameras used serial ports and floppy diskettes) so I can't tell for certain whether Datacomp switches are still SKBM (tentatively they appeared that way).

Matias switches are based heavily on the SKBM series, but they're not as clean and crisp feeling as genuine SKCM White switches from the late 80s and early 90s.

It's important to remember that many people abuse the term "Alps". There have been no Alps-branded mechanical switches for some years — Forward had already re-branded the SKBM series (removing the Alps logos and adding their own just to the bottom only) before they ceased production.
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Offline Special K

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 16:33:49 »
You'll want to go for a board with Matias switches for sure, but for what it's worth there's also the Solidtek KB-6600 with White Alps. It's a decent board for $5, but you can't get them for that price anymore. They're all sold out on the site that was selling them for that much.

Wow, looks like I just missed it:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67193.0
http://www.directron.com/kb6600bu.html

Unless they get a new shipment in.
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Offline Special K

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LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 16:39:56 »
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore
The Focus FK-2001 used "complicated" Alps SKCM White (amongst various other switches) — these went out of production around 1996. The OmniKey series used SKCM Blue and White.

Matias keyboards used "simplified" Alps/Forward SKBM Grey and SKBM White, which officially went out of production in 2012.

"Officially."

See, a source told me more recently that Forward did in fact sell the SKBM tooling to Datacomp, and we know that Datacomp are selling Alps clone switches, but Datacomp have utterly refused to talk to me, and while people have subsequently observed their products at trade fairs (including a brochure showing the switch internals), all they've come back with is pathetic low-resolution photos (like we're still in the 90s when digital cameras used serial ports and floppy diskettes) so I can't tell for certain whether Datacomp switches are still SKBM (tentatively they appeared that way).

Matias switches are based heavily on the SKBM series, but they're not as clean and crisp feeling as genuine SKCM White switches from the late 80s and early 90s.

It's important to remember that many people abuse the term "Alps". There have been no Alps-branded mechanical switches for some years — Forward had already re-branded the SKBM series (removing the Alps logos and adding their own just to the bottom only) before they ceased production.

Great information, thanks.  If I just want to try genuine "complicated" Alps SKCM White, is there a reason to prefer the Focus FK-2001 over the Northgate Omnikey 101, or vice versa?
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:36:33 by Special K »
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:00:51 »
See, a source told me more recently that Forward did in fact sell the SKBM tooling to Datacomp, and we know that Datacomp are selling Alps clone switches, but Datacomp have utterly refused to talk to me,
I heard from a guy recently who said they offered to send him some samples, and he was asking how I thought Forward SKBM switches compared to Matias clicky switches.

Matias: do you have any comments about the differences between your switches and the Forward/Fuhua switches you were using previously?

Quote
Matias switches are based heavily on the SKBM series, but they're not as clean and crisp feeling as genuine SKCM White switches from the late 80s and early 90s.
Personally I feel the opposite, based on the ones I’ve tried (close to new SKBM switches (from the late-1990s?) compared against new (from late 2013) Matias switches). I found the Matias switches to have a “cleaner” force curve and a stronger more consistent click.

Daniel: when is your Matias keyboard from?
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:02:29 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:04:08 »
Great information, thanks.  If I just want to try genuine "complicated" Alps SKCM White, is there a reason to prefer the Focus FK-2001 over the Northgate Omnikey 101, or vice versa?
Those two keyboards use the same Tai Hao double-shot ABS keycaps. The Omnikey is a very solid case, with a metal backplate, whereas the FK-2001 is pretty flimsy. I think the Omnikey might be NKRO, but I’m not positive about that.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:30:51 »
My Matias Tactile Pro 4 (PC) keyboard is brand new — got it in late December. My Tactile Pro 3 is from February 2011, and Quiet Pro from March 2013.

There's something about some switches (bamboo SKCM Black, SKBM White, and Matias) that gives you a second tactile bump after the first one. It's not specific to Matias switches, to simplified switches, or to clicky switches. Bamboo black feels the worst. It would be interesting to see if T8 switches—being another asymmetric design—share the same problem, as I've never had any other Alps clone switch have anything but a smooth feel.

Matias clicky is weird — when you press the keys they feel really soft, but yet typing on them feels erratically balky, similar to my hybrid complicated black/blue switches. Matias quiet click felt somewhat juddery and gritty but the switches were consistent and reliable and I found them to require zero acclimatisation and to not offer any kind of hindrance to typing — they were a "just works" switch with a lot of promise. The click switches were nowhere near as good.

The trouble with genuine complicated Alps is that so many keyboards have really out-of-condition switches.
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Offline Special K

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:41:07 »
Quote from: jacobolus
Those two keyboards use the same Tai Hao double-shot ABS keycaps. The Omnikey is a very solid case, with a metal backplate, whereas the FK-2001 is pretty flimsy. I think the Omnikey might be NKRO, but I’m not positive about that.

Looks like I'll go with the Omnikey then.
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Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 17:43:38 »
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore
The trouble with genuine complicated Alps is that so many keyboards have really out-of-condition switches.

Is this something that can be corrected once I have the board, or do I need to be careful when shopping used ones to make sure I don't get a bad one?
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 18:52:45 »
Is this something that can be corrected once I have the board, or do I need to be careful when shopping used ones to make sure I don't get a bad one?
Well, sometimes the switches are dirty/gritty inside. To fix that, you can desolder all the switches, take them all apart, clean the switch housings (I think the best way would probably be with ultrasonic cleaner, but blasting them with a datavac and then stirring them around in some soap & water might work okay if they aren’t in too bad shape), and add some lubricant before putting them back together.

Sometimes the click/tactile leaves are a bit bent out of shape. This can be fixed by very carefully bending each one back into its original shape, but it’s pretty tricky to get a uniform result across a whole board. Alternately Matias click leaves aren’t quite identical but I think will still work okay in most old Alps switches, so you could buy a batch of new Matias clicky switches and swap the click leaves into the Alps switches.

In general it’s easier to just get an okay condition board to begin with.

Offline chyros

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 20:10:02 »
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore
The trouble with genuine complicated Alps is that so many keyboards have really out-of-condition switches.

Is this something that can be corrected once I have the board, or do I need to be careful when shopping used ones to make sure I don't get a bad one?
Both. It helps if you get a good board, but if a few switches aren't great, it's not too hard to repair them. I'll be doing a video tutorial soon on how to clean, maintain and restore Alps switches soon. If switches are actually fried, you'll need to replace them, but if the keyboard is tested to work that shouldn't be the case.

I found a Dell AT101 with tons of fine cement-like powder dust in it - one of the worse things that can happen apart from the switch actually getting fried. The switches felt like stone on stone when you pressed them - and on some of them, there was no keyfeel at all. About half a dozen were jammed. It took me half a day to clean out all the switches properly and restore their clickiness, but it worked in the end. If you're patient enough and do it properly, you can restore Alps switches quite well, in my experience - they're really quite well designed and can handle a lot.

But it helps if you get a good one to begin with :p .
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Offline Special K

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 21:02:08 »
Quote from: jacobolus
Those two keyboards use the same Tai Hao double-shot ABS keycaps. The Omnikey is a very solid case, with a metal backplate, whereas the FK-2001 is pretty flimsy. I think the Omnikey might be NKRO, but I’m not positive about that.

Also I took a closer look at a picture of a FK-2001 and it has a non-standard layout: tall enter key, short right shift, and a backslash next to right shift:



That's one more reason for me to prefer an Omnikey.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 03:11:31 »
Quote from: jacobolus
Those two keyboards use the same Tai Hao double-shot ABS keycaps. The Omnikey is a very solid case, with a metal backplate, whereas the FK-2001 is pretty flimsy. I think the Omnikey might be NKRO, but I’m not positive about that.

Also I took a closer look at a picture of a FK-2001 and it has a non-standard layout: tall enter key, short right shift, and a backslash next to right shift:

Show Image


That's one more reason for me to prefer an Omnikey.
The OmniKey 102 has the same layout actually (101 is ANSI). I even prefer that layout to either ANSI or ISO, personally. But given the choice between a FK-2001 and an OmniKey, the choice is easy, really xD .
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Offline Shayde

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 03:34:36 »
See, a source told me more recently that Forward did in fact sell the SKBM tooling to Datacomp, and we know that Datacomp are selling Alps clone switches, but Datacomp have utterly refused to talk to me, and while people have subsequently observed their products at trade fairs (including a brochure showing the switch internals), all they've come back with is pathetic low-resolution photos (like we're still in the 90s when digital cameras used serial ports and floppy diskettes) so I can't tell for certain whether Datacomp switches are still SKBM (tentatively they appeared that way).

I'm currently using a Datacomp white Alps board on my main PC.  It dates back from the early 2000s I think (not at home at present so can't check) so they've been at it awhile.  They're pretty distinctive, being a full-size keyboard but with editing cluster and numpad scrunched up without gaps, and the indicator LEDs on the left side of the PrtSc three-key cluster.  I keep hitting INSert instead of Backspace.  :))

They're quite a crisp clicky switch, somewhat reminiscent of Matias clickies.  Not sure how they compare to complicated whites as my complicateds are on old tired keyboards, so the crispness is long gone from them.

Edit.  Found the image album of the keyboard.  http://imgur.com/a/cpEFX
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 February 2015, 03:40:37 by Shayde »
Collector-of-switches.  Cherry: red, brown, blue, black, grey (linear), green.  Alps: simp./comp. white, comp. blue, Matias.  NMB: white, black.  Futaba: Cherry stem.  Omron: yellow.  Topre: 45g  Various: Apple II+, TRS80 Model 1, C64, Acorn Electron, ZX81 (lol!).

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 14:58:45 »
Yours are Alps-branded, so they won't be Datacomp switches. The Alps branding was already removed when SKBM went out of production. (I've never even seen SKBL, although Chloe found a datasheet for them.)

Datacomp also used SKCM White and Futaba clicky and likely others.
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Offline Shayde

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 20:02:27 »
Oh, I thought you were saying you had not seen any Datacomp keyboard products in the wild, so was just confirming that they have been selling them.
Collector-of-switches.  Cherry: red, brown, blue, black, grey (linear), green.  Alps: simp./comp. white, comp. blue, Matias.  NMB: white, black.  Futaba: Cherry stem.  Omron: yellow.  Topre: 45g  Various: Apple II+, TRS80 Model 1, C64, Acorn Electron, ZX81 (lol!).

Offline Matias

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 09:52:04 »
See, a source told me more recently that Forward did in fact sell the SKBM tooling to Datacomp, and we know that Datacomp are selling Alps clone switches, but Datacomp have utterly refused to talk to me,

I heard from a guy recently who said they offered to send him some samples, and he was asking how I thought Forward SKBM switches compared to Matias clicky switches.

Matias: do you have any comments about the differences between your switches and the Forward/Fuhua switches you were using previously?



Yes, Datacomp did indeed buy Fuhua's old tooling, which was headed for the garbage...

They used that old tooling to create new tooling -- but they didn't have the original drawings.  So, it was like making a photocopy of a photocopy of something that has been in your back pocket for the last 20 years -- e.g., sat on, smudged, torn, etc.  In other words, not a clean copy of the original.

One manifestation of this is that standard ALPS keycaps apparently don't fit on them properly.  Datacomp did the slider tooling wrong, so the stems are the wrong size -- too tight.  In fact, the keycap vendor that supplies the keycaps for virtually all the mechanical keyboards made in Taiwan (ALPS and Cherry) actively dissuades his customers from using Datacomp's switches, because they break his keycaps.

The main attraction of Datacomp's switches is that they're cheaper, but I believe that only POS makers are using them -- probably just Datacomp customers.  I don't know of any mainstream keyboard that uses them.

BTW, we did not learn any of the above until well after we'd already done our own switches.  If we'd known that Datacomp had the old ALPS tooling, we'd almost certainly NOT have done our own.  In retrospect, I'm glad we didn't know.  It was a lot more work, but we ended up with a much better product.  The transparent housing alone has saved us a tonne of grief.



« Last Edit: Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:17:28 by Matias »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 16:37:14 »
Thanks for the details. Very helpful. :-)

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 17:17:48 »
Right, so it would be fair to say that SKBL/SKBM terminated in 2012, and that Datacomp switches are not the same product. (My feeling is that Forward always made SKBL/SKBM, as I think they were one of the overflow manufacturers for SKCL/SKCM, probably all the badly-moulded ones :)

I'm confused as to why Datacomp would feel the need to create all new tooling when they could just buy in from Tai-Hao, Kwanda, Xiang Min, Himake, the YH/B guys and likely others. They're all the same shape so it's not like you're tied to a single supplier either.

There's a suggestion here that SKBL/SKBM was discontinued at least in part because the tooling was worn out, since if the tooling was still any good, Datacomp would be using it as-is instead of trying to recreate it.

BTW, "dissuades his customers" — all the keycaps in Taiwan come from one dude in a shed? :)
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Offline Matias

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 21:50:14 »



Right, so it would be fair to say that SKBL/SKBM terminated in 2012, and that Datacomp switches are not the same product.



Yes, that would be fair.

Different tooling = different product.  Dates sound correct.





(My feeling is that Forward always made SKBL/SKBM, as I think they were one of the overflow manufacturers for SKCL/SKCM, probably all the badly-moulded ones :)



Don't know if Fuhua ever made SKCL/SKCM, but I suspect not.  We only ever bought SKBL/SKBM from them.

If SKCL/SKCM were originally made in Japan, I doubt they would have moved the tooling to Taiwan.  It's generally VERY expensive to move tooling between countries.  That may have been why they created SKBL/SKBM in the first place (new country, new tooling, new design).





I'm confused as to why Datacomp would feel the need to create all new tooling when they could just buy in from Tai-Hao, Kwanda, Xiang Min, Himake, the YH/B guys and likely others. They're all the same shape so it's not like you're tied to a single supplier either.



Three reasons...

1)  The Tai-Hao / Kwanda / Xiang Min / Himake / YH/B switches are crap.  Nobody who cares about quality wants them.  If they were any good, we would've used them ourselves.

2)  There's a lot of credibility that comes from having the original ALPS tooling.  Of course, you can lose all that credibility if you do a lousy job refurbing it (which appears to be the case).

3)  There's not a lot of profit in selling switches, unless you're doing very large volumes, or using it as a way to get more lucrative OEM/ODM business.  Datacomp is probably trying to do the latter.





There's a suggestion here that SKBL/SKBM was discontinued at least in part because the tooling was worn out, since if the tooling was still any good, Datacomp would be using it as-is instead of trying to recreate it.



That is precisely why SKBL/SKBM were discontinued.  The tooling had reached EOL. 





BTW, "dissuades his customers" — all the keycaps in Taiwan come from one dude in a shed? :)



It's a *really* nice (and really big) shed...  :-)



« Last Edit: Thu, 05 February 2015, 21:53:36 by Matias »

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:28:49 »
<Pretend Quote Works>Don't know if Fuhua ever made SKCL/SKCM, but I suspect not.  We only ever bought SKBL/SKBM from them.</Pretend Quote Works>

There's a lot of very interesting SKCM switches that are far below the expected standard of Japanese manufacturing. There's the batch with all the numbering missing, whose shells ended up being used to make fake Alps switches (Simplified Alps Type III). There's also the "scrawly" switches. According to alps.tw, these are all genuine switches:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Alps_SKCM_White_--_mould_variations.jpg

2 and 4 have the "fat" Alps logo associated with simplified Alps, instead of Alps Japan's high-grade mould production.

It appears that Alps had overflow manufacturing, presumably with Gold Star Alps (Korea) and Forward. It might be that the contact assemblies were shipped out from Japan and the plastic moulding and final assembly was carried out abroad. One suggestion is that it allowed Alps to sell switches to people like Ortek and Focus a lot more cheaply.

Just a theory though.
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Offline Matias

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 21:44:51 »

Very interesting...

These were clearly made from 4 different sets of tooling, as indicated by the styling of the core numbers.

The one missing the logo (assuming it's not a knockoff) likely had the ALPS logo removed after they lost the rights to use the ALPS trademark.






<Pretend Quote Works>Don't know if Fuhua ever made SKCL/SKCM, but I suspect not.  We only ever bought SKBL/SKBM from them.</Pretend Quote Works>

There's a lot of very interesting SKCM switches that are far below the expected standard of Japanese manufacturing. There's the batch with all the numbering missing, whose shells ended up being used to make fake Alps switches (Simplified Alps Type III). There's also the "scrawly" switches. According to alps.tw, these are all genuine switches:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Alps_SKCM_White_--_mould_variations.jpg

2 and 4 have the "fat" Alps logo associated with simplified Alps, instead of Alps Japan's high-grade mould production.

It appears that Alps had overflow manufacturing, presumably with Gold Star Alps (Korea) and Forward. It might be that the contact assemblies were shipped out from Japan and the plastic moulding and final assembly was carried out abroad. One suggestion is that it allowed Alps to sell switches to people like Ortek and Focus a lot more cheaply.

Just a theory though.

« Last Edit: Sun, 08 February 2015, 21:46:30 by Matias »

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Is there a white alps board in current production?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 02:35:05 »
They're all complicated Alps. You can see in the gallery here, a complicated Alps switch with all the numbering missing from the mould:

DSI Modular Pro

That seems to be an exact match for the shells used in Simplified Alps Type III. That was a lucky find.
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