Author Topic: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!  (Read 10196 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Hi everyone. I would like some genuine advice with my first mechanical keyboard. I have done some searching around as well as some in-store tests, but I can't quite find my fit. Please be kind as I am new here.

Firstly, I've been typing since I was eight with ordinary keyboards (I'm into my twenties now), so it's virtually impossible for me to stop 'bottoming out'. I've had some recommendations from friends for the Cherry MX Brown or Red switches, but when I tried them out they didn't work so well for me. If possible, I would prefer answers that are understanding of my situation, even if bottoming out is shunned upon by the general public.

I type at a very fast speed, so I would like a very responsive keyboard that can essentially "keep up" with me. I actually slow down quite often (and constantly repeat key presses) for my current keyboard (it's a Logitech K120; random cheap one) simply because if I tap too fast, it won't register my presses. I would like to avoid that.

That is, I would like a keyboard that can handle so much "speed" that I could tap even faster and it will continue to register all of the key presses perfectly fine. At current, my situation is like being a race car driver but in a Toyota Camry. I reach the top speed often and really don't want that.

I tried the Cherry MX Blue switches and I really liked the feel of them. I liked how the keys were very fluid and I could tap really quickly. But what I didn't like was how the keys started failing to register. When I looked up that issue, it turns out that the Blues were not meant for super-fast typing. Something about the internals not returning to the starting position quick enough. Is this because I bottom out?

In terms of key caps, I've always felt that the standard keyboard keys were too thick and tall. If it were possible, I would totally be okay with a keyboard that had medium height keys (1/2 to 2/3 the height of a standard key). I'm not a fan of laptop "chiclet" keys as they mess up my timing (they bottom out too quickly and my fingers do not react well to that suddenness).

Recently, I watched a video about CoolerMaster's new NovaTouch TKL keyboard, which uses Topre switches. I'm not too familiar with them and I've never tried them out before, so I will probably do so in-store sometime in the near future. What I understand is that the Topre switches uses a sort of hybrid technology.

Another thing I noticed was that the keyboard came with these 'o-rings' which could be used to reduce the sound of the keypresses as well as reduce the height of the keys themselves. I think that these 'o-rings' might be what I am looking for, to reduce key height. Do they exist for the Cherry MX switches, and would they be helpful for me? Do any current keyboards have them included?

Finally, talking about the NovaTouch, I would prefer a different keyboard that included the number pad as I use it very frequently for quickly typing in numbers.

If anybody could give some suggestions as to what keyboards to look up or test, or what kinds of keyboard features I should be looking for, I would be very thankful! If additional information is required, I will reply promptly. Thank you all very much!!

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 02:13:14 »
Have you tried buckling spring keyboards before?  Have you ever considered them?

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 02:34:40 »
Have you tried buckling spring keyboards before?  Have you ever considered them?
Oh, that brings a good point that I forgot to mention! I will be gaming as well with the keyboard, and my hand position is usually resting and not lifted above the keyboard. Since I type quickly, tall keys separated by large gaps aren't overly convenient for me, as my fingers would be blocked when trying to exchange keys. I'm not exactly the most ergonomic typist on the block...

(And on a side note, I probably don't want to be caught using some old-looking keyboard that costs a lot more than what it looks. This is just personal bias, but unfortunately I still live with my mother and she's the kind of person who takes things at face value. She would never let me make this purchase.)

Offline Ludovician

  • Posts: 330
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 02:42:14 »
I'm in much the same position; I've been looking around for a good keyboard to (finally) replace my old membrane one. I have one question for you: Where have you found stores that allow you to do in-store tests? I've looked at a few stores near my location but most of them didn't even stock mechanical keyboards and those that did only had Razer.

As for the o-rings, I've seen some for Cherry MX switches, so I can tell you at least that they do exist.
Typing speed:
More
Visit the Typing Test and try!

My collection:
More
HHKB Pro 2 (Blank, white) | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S (Blank, white) | Topre Realforce 87UB silent-modded (not currently functional) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (MX Brown) | IBM Model M 1391401 - 9th January 1991 (Bolt+Floss-modded) | Apple keyboard m0116 (Orange Alps) | Unidentified DIN Keyboard (White Alps) | ADDS 1010 (Green Alps) | AEK II (Linear-modded, USB-converted) | IBM PC-AT Model F | Noppoo Choc Mini (MX Black) | Amstrad PC2286 | BigKeys LX | IBM Model M 1391401 - 6th September 1990 | IBM Model M2 1395300 - 28th February 1991 | Leopold FC660C | Cherry G80-11802 (MX Brown) | Matias Tactile Pro (Simplfied grey Alps) | Razer Blackwidow (MX Blue) | Novatouch 55g | Focus FK-2001 (White alps) | DSE Multitech (Blue alps) | Dell AT101W (Matias quiet) | Pok3r (White w/Clears) | KBP V80 (Blue Alps)

Pending:
Infinity kit

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 03:09:46 »
I am sure someone in the know will point you in the direction you want to go.  You just described the kind of mechanical switch you were looking for.  Good luck!

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 03:59:09 »
Sean Wrona apparently used a DAS to set many of his records.

http://seanwrona.com/typing.php

They have MX blues or MX browns, I can't remember exactly which he had.

Blues might get you if you don't let the switch all the way up - their release point is actually slightly higher than the actuation point, so you do need to let the switch slightly higher up before you can press it again.  This catches a lot of people who try to use MX blues (or greens) for gaming that requires very fast double-tapping of keys.

You could try MX blacks - enough spring to return to the unactuated position fairly quickly, although the discussion about whether that is a contributing factor to typing speed has been hashed out many times.

Or clears - they have a slight tactile bump, and stiff springs.

Keyboards are personal items - you might find yourself trying several different keyboards, several different keycap sets, with and without O-rings, before you find a combination that is perfect for you.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 1091
  • Location: Asia
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 06:35:48 »
How fast is "fast"? I suspect that unless you're typing well above 100wpm then technique is going to be more important than equipment. My own typing speed doesn't vary too much by equipment- good laptop keyboard, Cherry switches, buckling spring or free membrane keyboards. It's just my enjoyment of the keyboard that changes. I had no idea what speed I type at until I just did an online test just now and clocked 80wpm (on completely weird Jane Austin text and with cold hands). I would guess that this is pretty average for people who like keyboards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "bottoming out". Not sure at all why some people seem to think there's a problem with that.

Anyway, I strongly suspect that the key is just to find switches that you feel comfortable with. Obsessing about whether switches limit speed is probably irrelevant for people who are not aiming to break records.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 February 2015, 06:38:48 by jamster »

Offline Defect

  • Posts: 670
  • I collect keyboards and keyboard accessories
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 10:50:56 »
If you like the clickiness of blues but hate the hysteresis associate with them,

ALPS and Buckling Spring are what you are looking for.  SKCM (AKA Complicated) alps or even the Matias alps clones are great.

And all these are worlds better than MX Blues.

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 10:55:34 »
There's nothing inherently wrong with bottoming out. Each person has their own typing style, which works for them. In fact, for some switch types, such as rubber domes, bottoming out is required for switch actuation. Now, despite Topre calling it "cup rubber," their switch mechanism is indeed a rubber some over a capacitive PCB, with a coil spring to provide the capacitive charge for actuation.

Since you prefer to bottom out when you type, you might prefer a linear switch, such as MX blacks. I really like both blacks and reds, but I slightly prefer blacks. They are also said to be good for gaming, as they don't have the fail to reset problem of tactile or clicky switches.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline shantanujoshi

  • Posts: 30
  • Location: New York, NY
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 11:48:27 »
I agree with the previous comment that speed is fairly consistent across keyboards. I experienced around 10wpm difference when typing on topre vs cherry blues for example. But I enjoy the topre keypress to the point where the marginal speed increase isn't worth it.
Never judge a man by his post count
[Hasu 55g HHKB PINK RFs] [GON HHKB Zeals] [GON TKL w/ Erg Clears] [IBM SSK] [VE.A Zeliostotles] [Ergodox Gatistotles]

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 23:49:34 »
Hello everybody, and thank you all very much for your kind replies! I will reply to each of your responses, one-by-one:

I'm in much the same position; I've been looking around for a good keyboard to (finally) replace my old membrane one. I have one question for you: Where have you found stores that allow you to do in-store tests? I've looked at a few stores near my location but most of them didn't even stock mechanical keyboards and those that did only had Razer.

As for the o-rings, I've seen some for Cherry MX switches, so I can tell you at least that they do exist.

I'm not sure about your location, but I live in Canada and the closest major computer hardware and peripheral retailers in my area that possess display models for testing are Canada Computers and BestBuy/Future Shop. I primarily go to Canada Computers, as the staff are more friendly and cater more to your interests than major corporations like the latter. I can request to plug-in a display model to test on an actual computer that's also on display; they don't mind.

The variety in the store ranges from just about most generic as well as mechanical keyboards, from all sorts of brands. They try to keep up to date and aren't biased towards any specific manufacturer.

And thanks, I looked up the o-rings some more, and did notice that they existed for the Cherry MX switches. I am very interested in them for their ability to reduce height.

I am sure someone in the know will point you in the direction you want to go.  You just described the kind of mechanical switch you were looking for.  Good luck!

Thank you!!

Sean Wrona apparently used a DAS to set many of his records.

http://seanwrona.com/typing.php

They have MX blues or MX browns, I can't remember exactly which he had.

Blues might get you if you don't let the switch all the way up - their release point is actually slightly higher than the actuation point, so you do need to let the switch slightly higher up before you can press it again.  This catches a lot of people who try to use MX blues (or greens) for gaming that requires very fast double-tapping of keys.

You could try MX blacks - enough spring to return to the unactuated position fairly quickly, although the discussion about whether that is a contributing factor to typing speed has been hashed out many times.

Or clears - they have a slight tactile bump, and stiff springs.

Keyboards are personal items - you might find yourself trying several different keyboards, several different keycap sets, with and without O-rings, before you find a combination that is perfect for you.

I've been doing some research throughout the day and I believe that I may consider the Cherry MX Browns or Reds with o-rings installed on them. I tried them out in the store before, and although they felt a little "dry," they were better when double-tapping keys.

The Cherry MX Reds did have some issues with ordinary typing, so I will need to try it out a little more to see if it could be used as an all-around keyboard or not.

I looked up the Blacks and the Clears before, and I don't think I'm looking for stiffer keys. I'd prefer if the keys were "easy" to press. One of the YouTube videos I watched showed how the Blacks were very hard to press. I would assume the Clears aren't that much better than their Brown counterparts.

Or you mean that the very stiffness of them is actually better for users who tend to bottom out? Was that what you meant?

How fast is "fast"? I suspect that unless you're typing well above 100wpm then technique is going to be more important than equipment. My own typing speed doesn't vary too much by equipment- good laptop keyboard, Cherry switches, buckling spring or free membrane keyboards. It's just my enjoyment of the keyboard that changes. I had no idea what speed I type at until I just did an online test just now and clocked 80wpm (on completely weird Jane Austin text and with cold hands). I would guess that this is pretty average for people who like keyboards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "bottoming out". Not sure at all why some people seem to think there's a problem with that.

Anyway, I strongly suspect that the key is just to find switches that you feel comfortable with. Obsessing about whether switches limit speed is probably irrelevant for people who are not aiming to break records.

I do type rather fast, but you are right when you mentioned about how 'feel' is more important. I found the Cherry MX switches "dry" as well as tall in comparison to ordinary keyboards, which is why I'm becoming more and more interested in the o-ring dampeners.

If I could, I would fetch the Cherry MX Blue switches for the wonderful feel of them (I don't really care for the tactile click), but they have issues with double-tapping and thus results in less utility for my occasional gaming.

If you like the clickiness of blues but hate the hysteresis associate with them,

ALPS and Buckling Spring are what you are looking for.  SKCM (AKA Complicated) alps or even the Matias alps clones are great.

And all these are worlds better than MX Blues.

The YouTube videos that show buckling spring keyboards (Unicomp and IBMs) appear to be very responsive and efficient, but don't appear to be gaming-friendly. I'm sure they're great typing keyboards, but as I mentioned previously, I think my hand position would pose an issue with the gaps and height of the keys.

Thank you for your suggestion. I will go and look up the ALPS switches(?) after this post. Hopefully I'll find them to be closer to what I'm looking for!

There's nothing inherently wrong with bottoming out. Each person has their own typing style, which works for them. In fact, for some switch types, such as rubber domes, bottoming out is required for switch actuation. Now, despite Topre calling it "cup rubber," their switch mechanism is indeed a rubber some over a capacitive PCB, with a coil spring to provide the capacitive charge for actuation.

Since you prefer to bottom out when you type, you might prefer a linear switch, such as MX blacks. I really like both blacks and reds, but I slightly prefer blacks. They are also said to be good for gaming, as they don't have the fail to reset problem of tactile or clicky switches.

So, are the Topre switches friendly to those who bottom-out? I may need to try the new NovaTouch to see how they feel like, even though I will not be purchasing it.

I did consider the Cherry MX Reds because of their ability to "reset" better than the Cherry MX Blues, but they felt a bit dry and stiff compared to them. I can't imagine how much better the Blacks would be. I may go back to the store and try them again, keeping in mind the height reduction of the o-rings. I think I will try out a Corsair K70.

I agree with the previous comment that speed is fairly consistent across keyboards. I experienced around 10wpm difference when typing on topre vs cherry blues for example. But I enjoy the topre keypress to the point where the marginal speed increase isn't worth it.

So, you found that the keys generally performed similarly, but the overall feel was better with the Topre switches? That's very interesting. I will definitely try out the NovaTouch to see how it's like.

Final comment: At the moment, I am leaning towards a Cherry MX Red keyboard with o-rings dampeners to be attached onto them. However, with some of the suggestions here, I will be looking up alternatives first. Essentially, from what I can make out so far, in terms of feel I'd prefer something along the lines of the Cherry MX Blues/Buckling Springs, but with full support for double-tapping. So I will be looking up ALPS keyboards as Defect recommended. I shall report back after some research. Good day to everyone!

Offline brimborion

  • Posts: 91
  • Location: Austin, TX
  • Likes Matias Switches
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 00:48:43 »
I am still befuddled that a buckling spring keyboard would be "old-looking" :).
Buckling Spring: 42H1292,  1391401, Unicomp Linux 101, Customizer 104 | Cherry Blue: Rosewill RK-9000, Das Keyboard S Pro | Cherry Black: Wyse/Link 840358-30| Rubber Dome: various Key Tronic, HHKB Lite, HHKB Lite 2, KB-8923, 71G4644 | Topre: Type Heaven | ALPS: Matias Mini Tactile Pro, 2xKBP V60

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 02:00:16 »
First off: Fix your desk setup and ergonomics! If you continue typing with your wrists / palms resting all the time you will end up with some form of injury. While gaming it's okay to rest the nub of your palm on something to keep your hand in position without fatigue, but make sure it's high enough that you keep your wrist straight. When actively typing, raise your wrists up off the desk and try to keep your wrists as straight in line with your forearms as possible (both up/down and left/right). This allows you to involve more of your arm muscles in typing, reducing fatigue and risks of injury long term.

You should have a high enough seat and low enough desk that your elbows bend roughly 90 degrees or a little more with your upper arms straight and your wrists straight while your fingers are on the keys.

I would recommend a Filco Majestouch 2 full size, Ducky Shine 3 full size or Coolermaster Quickfire XT with MX Browns and some orings.
They all have standard layout, so you can replace the keycaps with almost any set you like, very good build quality and high quality components, etc (although the Filco and Ducky are a bit better than the Coolermaster). In general, most "gaming" keyboards will have more gimmicks, higher price and lower quality.

The orings are more for reducing shock on bottom-out than reducing the key travel, although they do reduce the travel slightly. One downside to using orings is you may have to try different thicknesses when switching keycap sets as different keycap profiles have different underside designs. I do something called the "trampoline mod" on my switches which essentially puts an "oring" inside the switch, so you don't have to worry when changing keycaps, but this requires desoldering the switches and opening them to install.

MX Reds are often recommended for gaming due to their light springs and linear action for "hovering" near the actuation point or double tapping without fully releasing the key, but the lack of tactility can be an issue when typing. I make more mistakes with Reds than most other switch types. Browns have a small tactile "bump" that allows you to register when the switch actuates, so you can be certain that you've pressed it far enough. This helps a lot when typing, even if it's subconcious and you don't really notice the bumps when typing fast.

Clears are stiffer (especially if you bottom out all the time), so they will be more fatiguing to type on, but they have a much bigger tactile bump and feel awesome if you install lighter springs in (again, this requires desoldering and opening the switches, though).

I am not a fan of Topre. They are very expensive and there aren't many options. Some board designs only come with one switch strength. For full size, you're looking at either a Type Heaven or Realforce 104. There are no easily available aftermarket keycap sets for Topre switches. The only mod available for changing the switch feel is to swap rubber domes from another Topre.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sniping

  • Posts: 862
  • Location: California
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 02:17:00 »
I don't see double-tapping as an issue. If you play Osu, Cookiezi used to play on an MX blue keyboard. Here's a clip of him practicing streams with a Blackwidow:
t=1473

In theory, double-tapping seems problematic, but in practice, it doesn't matter much.

If you like bottoming out, I suggest that you try Topre. Coming from normal keyboards, I think that Topre feels really natural to type on. I like the HHKB and Leopold FC660C, but the Realforce 55g is a nice Topre keyboard too.

Offline Defect

  • Posts: 670
  • I collect keyboards and keyboard accessories
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 10:24:36 »
Double tapping with MX blues is possible
  The issue is that the click mechanism does not reset unless you fully release the key.

What's the point in a tactile clicky switch if it fails to be accurately and consistently tactile and clicky.

MX blues try to emulate a click within Cherry's design limitations.  Very smart, but falls short when compared to BS and ALPS.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Hysteresis


For FPS gaming, go Linear.  For anything else, any switch will do.  More important than switch type is your layout and KRO support.  You should have at least 6kro for gaming, which many buckling spring boards do not have.  Newer ALPS boards (Matias clones) should have 6KRO, but are more expensive than old SKCM ALPS.

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline JinDesu

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 303
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 10:37:53 »
SC2, League, Dota 2, CS, etc gamer here...

Have played the above games with Filco MX Blue TKL, Razer BW MX Brown, KBT Race S (75% form factor) Browns, RF 101 variable topre, Das 4 blues, and recently a Unicomp Model M. Waiting for a CM storm TKL with greens to come in too.

I've never had a problem double tapping with the MX blues/browns. The blues are noisy for playing team games in skype/whatever unless you do push to talk or you have a good setting for voice activation. The browns don't feel too different from blues in terms of fast gaming, but when I'm typing for chat I prefer the blues for crispness. My topre board feels very fun to type on, but didnt' feel as good for gaming. The key presses are soft with a nice rebound, but something just doesn't jive for gaming.

Playing on the Model M (buckling spring) was very fun in SC2 and in League/Dota. They make a lot of noise, more than the MX blues. The tactility is very high and I do sometimes miss a key because the spring is a bit heavier. Once I get used to it, however, it's not so bad. The only downside to the Model M is that the F row is farther off than the standard layout. I use the F keys a lot in Dota and SC2, so that's a problem for me. Hopefully the MX greens are a good compromise.

I also have played with MX reds for SC2 and League and I don't like it at all. The linear switches feel ok, but I didn't like the spring rate on the reds. Blacks feel better to me. Also the lack of feedback threw me off completely. Perhaps they are better for FPS games, but I've never had an issue playing CS GO and CS Source with my blues and browns.

I've hit 105-120 WPM on some type test sites and 150-160APM (as zerg) on SC2 with the buckling spring keyboard, so don't be too put off by the spring rate etc. It's all about just getting used to things.
Someday somebody will best me, but it won't be today, and it won't be you.

Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Blue Tenkeyless, KBT Race S, & Realforce 101

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 11:27:08 »
I am still befuddled that a buckling spring keyboard would be "old-looking" :).

To each's own, of course :)!

First off: Fix your desk setup and ergonomics! If you continue typing with your wrists / palms resting all the time you will end up with some form of injury. While gaming it's okay to rest the nub of your palm on something to keep your hand in position without fatigue, but make sure it's high enough that you keep your wrist straight. When actively typing, raise your wrists up off the desk and try to keep your wrists as straight in line with your forearms as possible (both up/down and left/right). This allows you to involve more of your arm muscles in typing, reducing fatigue and risks of injury long term.

You should have a high enough seat and low enough desk that your elbows bend roughly 90 degrees or a little more with your upper arms straight and your wrists straight while your fingers are on the keys.

I would recommend a Filco Majestouch 2 full size, Ducky Shine 3 full size or Coolermaster Quickfire XT with MX Browns and some orings.
They all have standard layout, so you can replace the keycaps with almost any set you like, very good build quality and high quality components, etc (although the Filco and Ducky are a bit better than the Coolermaster). In general, most "gaming" keyboards will have more gimmicks, higher price and lower quality.

The orings are more for reducing shock on bottom-out than reducing the key travel, although they do reduce the travel slightly. One downside to using orings is you may have to try different thicknesses when switching keycap sets as different keycap profiles have different underside designs. I do something called the "trampoline mod" on my switches which essentially puts an "oring" inside the switch, so you don't have to worry when changing keycaps, but this requires desoldering the switches and opening them to install.

MX Reds are often recommended for gaming due to their light springs and linear action for "hovering" near the actuation point or double tapping without fully releasing the key, but the lack of tactility can be an issue when typing. I make more mistakes with Reds than most other switch types. Browns have a small tactile "bump" that allows you to register when the switch actuates, so you can be certain that you've pressed it far enough. This helps a lot when typing, even if it's subconcious and you don't really notice the bumps when typing fast.

Clears are stiffer (especially if you bottom out all the time), so they will be more fatiguing to type on, but they have a much bigger tactile bump and feel awesome if you install lighter springs in (again, this requires desoldering and opening the switches, though).

I am not a fan of Topre. They are very expensive and there aren't many options. Some board designs only come with one switch strength. For full size, you're looking at either a Type Heaven or Realforce 104. There are no easily available aftermarket keycap sets for Topre switches. The only mod available for changing the switch feel is to swap rubber domes from another Topre.

I recall learning about keyboard ergonomics in an old keyboarding class, but I've since never really paid attention to it. I can see its utility for ordinary typing, but it may be a distraction when you're trying to play games and you have to focus on both the game and trying to keep your hands in posture. I will listen to your advice though, and try to get into the habit of lifting my hands for typing.

And wow, thank you very much for your keyboard recommendations. I will definitely look them up. Does it matter what brand or keyboard I purchase, if the switches as the same? I always figured keyboards cannot really "break" unless the lettering fades away, or you're clipping onto keys and constantly force your fingers into them (my hatred for laptop chiclet keys).

Unfortunately, I understand little to nothing about soldering, although my father was a master at that during his youth. I'll be sticking with some premade keyboard!

I see what you mean about how the lack of tactility could become an issue for typing. But don't Cherry MX switches actuate halfway down? I did try the Browns as well as the Reds, and I did make some mistakes on the Reds before. I felt that it was an issue with trying to move to different keys, but it could be due to the lack of tactility and typing too quickly, like you say.

I suppose I'll stay away from the Clears, then!

I'm not really interested in "modding" my keyboards, so it's not a big deal. However, there isn't really any Topre keyboard to test around here, so I'm limited to assumptions as to what they're like. Hopefully I'll get a chance to try the NovaTouch.

I don't see double-tapping as an issue. If you play Osu, Cookiezi used to play on an MX blue keyboard. Here's a clip of him practicing streams with a Blackwidow:
t=1473

In theory, double-tapping seems problematic, but in practice, it doesn't matter much.

If you like bottoming out, I suggest that you try Topre. Coming from normal keyboards, I think that Topre feels really natural to type on. I like the HHKB and Leopold FC660C, but the Realforce 55g is a nice Topre keyboard too.

Hm, but the internals of the Blues don't return quick enough to the starting point, which can cause problems if you don't fully lift your fingers off the keyboard. As Defect explains after your post.

I will certainly give the Topre switches a try to see whether it's my thing!

Double tapping with MX blues is possible
  The issue is that the click mechanism does not reset unless you fully release the key.

What's the point in a tactile clicky switch if it fails to be accurately and consistently tactile and clicky.

MX blues try to emulate a click within Cherry's design limitations.  Very smart, but falls short when compared to BS and ALPS.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Hysteresis


For FPS gaming, go Linear.  For anything else, any switch will do.  More important than switch type is your layout and KRO support.  You should have at least 6kro for gaming, which many buckling spring boards do not have.  Newer ALPS boards (Matias clones) should have 6KRO, but are more expensive than old SKCM ALPS.

I did some searching for ALPS keyboards, but there doesn't seem to be much available for purchasing. Is it because it is outdated?

Matias' website really pushes the whole "not meant for gaming" on its keyboards, which seems to push me away from them. I'm not sure how they perform in gaming, and they aren't available at my local retailers to test. Refunds would become a bit of an issue if I don't like the keyboard.

I did watch some videos about the Matias ALPS keyboards, and they look and feel nice, but there are no articles anywhere explaining whether they work for gaming. Could you elaborate if you've tried them before? How do they perform for quick tapping, and double-tapping?

Why don't any "nicer-looking" keyboards exist with the buckling springs? A keyboard like that would certainly appeal to many people.

SC2, League, Dota 2, CS, etc gamer here...

Have played the above games with Filco MX Blue TKL, Razer BW MX Brown, KBT Race S (75% form factor) Browns, RF 101 variable topre, Das 4 blues, and recently a Unicomp Model M. Waiting for a CM storm TKL with greens to come in too.

I've never had a problem double tapping with the MX blues/browns. The blues are noisy for playing team games in skype/whatever unless you do push to talk or you have a good setting for voice activation. The browns don't feel too different from blues in terms of fast gaming, but when I'm typing for chat I prefer the blues for crispness. My topre board feels very fun to type on, but didnt' feel as good for gaming. The key presses are soft with a nice rebound, but something just doesn't jive for gaming.

Playing on the Model M (buckling spring) was very fun in SC2 and in League/Dota. They make a lot of noise, more than the MX blues. The tactility is very high and I do sometimes miss a key because the spring is a bit heavier. Once I get used to it, however, it's not so bad. The only downside to the Model M is that the F row is farther off than the standard layout. I use the F keys a lot in Dota and SC2, so that's a problem for me. Hopefully the MX greens are a good compromise.

I also have played with MX reds for SC2 and League and I don't like it at all. The linear switches feel ok, but I didn't like the spring rate on the reds. Blacks feel better to me. Also the lack of feedback threw me off completely. Perhaps they are better for FPS games, but I've never had an issue playing CS GO and CS Source with my blues and browns.

I've hit 105-120 WPM on some type test sites and 150-160APM (as zerg) on SC2 with the buckling spring keyboard, so don't be too put off by the spring rate etc. It's all about just getting used to things.

It's wonderful to read an opinion from an actual gamer. So from your experience, the Blues generally don't suffer from double-tapping issues. That's interesting! Do you ever bottom-out? That could be a factor. And so far, you're the first person to say that the Topre keyboards are not as good compared to the others. I will keep this in mind.

Would you say that the buckling spring keyboards are much more responsive to your own tapping speed? I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about the Cherry MX Greens!

What was wrong with the springs on the Reds? They weren't quick enough? It's possible that the Blues perform fine for you since you're primarily a RTS gamer and you don't catch yourself double-tapping as frequently. So there may be bias for feel.

.
Final comment: I'm now tied between the Cherry MX Reds, Browns, and Blues. Cherry MX switch keyboards are easier and more plentiful to purchase (and thus easier to exchange or refund), so I probably won't delve too deep into other kinds of switches. As some of you have mentioned, the difference is generally minor. I will set aside the Topre switches as there is too little to make an educated decision for them. However, if there is a good "all-around" keyboard with ALPS switches, I am definitely interested in checking it out. Thank you all very much! I won't jump to conclusions until I am 100% sure about the keyboard that I want.

Offline JinDesu

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 303
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 11:47:14 »
Reds were too light for me, almost making me bottom out on most strokes. I don't bottom out as much on my blues and browns. I bottom out a bit on the buckling spring because the higher spring rate requires
more force and I'm not used to it yet. I do play more RTS and MOBA than FPS nowadays, but I never had much issue double tapping in CS. I'm proficient enough to notice if the keyboard causes me issues in movement.

The buckling springs aren't so much about responsiveness as much as it is an aesthetic thing for me. I really enjoy the heavier spring and clicks, and it puts me in a better mood to play. YMMV.

I've heard alps are more tactile than MX so they might be much better for users like me.
Someday somebody will best me, but it won't be today, and it won't be you.

Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Blue Tenkeyless, KBT Race S, & Realforce 101

Offline BrewCaps

  • Posts: 114
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 13:40:11 »
Quote
I tried the Cherry MX Blue switches and I really liked the feel of them. I liked how the keys were very fluid and I could tap really quickly. But what I didn't like was how the keys started failing to register. When I looked up that issue, it turns out that the Blues were not meant for super-fast typing. Something about the internals not returning to the starting position quick enough. Is this because I bottom out?

Blues were designed for typing.  Blacks/Browns/reds for gaming.

Offline slip84

  • Posts: 475
  • Location: Canada
  • GUYDUDE MAGICIAN
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 13:43:55 »
I have honestly never had an issue on any of my boards and type up to around 110WPM. Blacks, blues, browns, reds, and Topre all register all the keys I mean to hit and all the ones I hit by mistake, too. And as far as double tapping blues, I have never had issues with keys registering and I'm notorious for bottoming out hard. Listening to me type probably drives a lot of people near me insane.

Either way, enjoy your keyboard adventure. I am willing to bet you won't buy just one board (or sets of caps for that matter) before all is said and done. And if you want to save a ton of time, just get a HHKB. :D

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 14:05:38 »
Reds were too light for me, almost making me bottom out on most strokes. I don't bottom out as much on my blues and browns. I bottom out a bit on the buckling spring because the higher spring rate requires
more force and I'm not used to it yet. I do play more RTS and MOBA than FPS nowadays, but I never had much issue double tapping in CS. I'm proficient enough to notice if the keyboard causes me issues in movement.

The buckling springs aren't so much about responsiveness as much as it is an aesthetic thing for me. I really enjoy the heavier spring and clicks, and it puts me in a better mood to play. YMMV.

I've heard alps are more tactile than MX so they might be much better for users like me.

I bottom out so the Reds are not an issue for me. I will need to give the Blues and ALPS some more analysis before pulling the trigger on any particular keyboard.

Blues were designed for typing.  Blacks/Browns/reds for gaming.

Oh, I see! Thank you. I will keep that in mind; it makes distinguishing between the two type much more simpler.

I have honestly never had an issue on any of my boards and type up to around 110WPM. Blacks, blues, browns, reds, and Topre all register all the keys I mean to hit and all the ones I hit by mistake, too. And as far as double tapping blues, I have never had issues with keys registering and I'm notorious for bottoming out hard. Listening to me type probably drives a lot of people near me insane.

Either way, enjoy your keyboard adventure. I am willing to bet you won't buy just one board (or sets of caps for that matter) before all is said and done. And if you want to save a ton of time, just get a HHKB. :D

Thank you very much!! Getting more than one keyboard is probably way out of my budget, and I don't have all the desk space in the world for that anyway, haha.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 15:34:45 »
Quote
I tried the Cherry MX Blue switches and I really liked the feel of them. I liked how the keys were very fluid and I could tap really quickly. But what I didn't like was how the keys started failing to register. When I looked up that issue, it turns out that the Blues were not meant for super-fast typing. Something about the internals not returning to the starting position quick enough. Is this because I bottom out?

Blues were designed for typing.  Blacks/Browns/reds for gaming.

Ahem, no they weren't. The original Cherry MX switch was Black, the first one, in 1984. Made for typing and use in industrial keyboards and POS units. Browns were introduced in 1994, Blues in 2007, Reds in 2008.

Blues do feel good for typing due to the extra audible feedback of when the switches actuate, but the hysteresis (difference in position between actuation and reset points) makes them a bit "slower" for double taps and you can't hover them. Also, the click they make is fairly high pitch and sounds very "plasticky" to my ears, so I don't really like them.

The better brands of boards are made with higher quality parts and keycaps (in general) and the cases can be better made, so it does make a difference to typing feel even if the switches themselves will last practically forever. That said, the Coolermaster hits a good value point, by being a reasonable amount cheaper without sacrificing too much quality (still plate mounted, decent controller and firmware, reasonable keycaps, fairly solid case, costar style stabilisers).

A good way to improve the feel of most stock Cherry MX boards is by putting some high quality keycaps on. Be careful, though, as this can become addictive and expensive ;) My favourites are GMK doubleshot caps and Signature Plastics "full contour" SA profile doubleshots.

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 16:17:08 »
Blues were designed for typing.  Blacks/Browns/reds for gaming.

Ahem, no they weren't. The original Cherry MX switch was Black, the first one, in 1984. Made for typing and use in industrial keyboards and POS units. Browns were introduced in 1994, Blues in 2007, Reds in 2008.

Blues do feel good for typing due to the extra audible feedback of when the switches actuate, but the hysteresis (difference in position between actuation and reset points) makes them a bit "slower" for double taps and you can't hover them. Also, the click they make is fairly high pitch and sounds very "plasticky" to my ears, so I don't really like them.

The better brands of boards are made with higher quality parts and keycaps (in general) and the cases can be better made, so it does make a difference to typing feel even if the switches themselves will last practically forever. That said, the Coolermaster hits a good value point, by being a reasonable amount cheaper without sacrificing too much quality (still plate mounted, decent controller and firmware, reasonable keycaps, fairly solid case, costar style stabilisers).

A good way to improve the feel of most stock Cherry MX boards is by putting some high quality keycaps on. Be careful, though, as this can become addictive and expensive ;) My favourites are GMK doubleshot caps and Signature Plastics "full contour" SA profile doubleshots.

How do you know or where can you find custom key caps that aren't low quality? I'd like to be able to customize my mechanical keyboard some time in the future with custom printed decals on them. Do you have any particular company you would like to recommend to me?

And, CoolerMaster has way too many keyboards. Which particular model(s) should I focus on?

I was a bit interested in the Corsair K70 (non-RGB) mostly because of the fact that it was designed to be cleaning-friendly. Dust and whatnot doesn't get stuck inside the base and you don't need to take the key caps apart to clean inside. Have you looked it up before? It's on sale where I live, so I can pick it up for a reasonable price.

Offline Defect

  • Posts: 670
  • I collect keyboards and keyboard accessories
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 16:50:35 »
I vote against Corsair.

For CM, look for quick fire rapid (discontinued) at around 40-60 USD for used good condition

Or quickfire stealth (basically QFR but slightly better and with side printed stock caps)

Both of these are TKL (TENKEYLESS)

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 16:55:53 »
Are we sure Blues were introduced in 2007? Because I had a Dolch PAC that was manufactured before 2007, and it had Blues in it...
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 17:07:31 »
I vote against Corsair.

For CM, look for quick fire rapid (discontinued) at around 40-60 USD for used good condition

Or quickfire stealth (basically QFR but slightly better and with side printed stock caps)

Both of these are TKL (TENKEYLESS)

Okay then. Perhaps it's just a selling point for marketing purposes.

Is there any CoolerMaster keyboard that has the number pad and is functionally similar? I do need a number pad for entering numbers in the work that I perform.

Offline fierran123

  • Posts: 15
  • Mechanical keyboard lover
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 19:10:53 »
I vote against Corsair.

For CM, look for quick fire rapid (discontinued) at around 40-60 USD for used good condition

Or quickfire stealth (basically QFR but slightly better and with side printed stock caps)

Both of these are TKL (TENKEYLESS)

Okay then. Perhaps it's just a selling point for marketing purposes.

Is there any CoolerMaster keyboard that has the number pad and is functionally similar? I do need a number pad for entering numbers in the work that I perform.

They have a big selection, off the top of my head there's Quickfire Pro, Quickfire XT and Quickfire TK (tenkeyless size with a full layout, has a weird numpad combined with arrow keys), so just look around and see what you can find.

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 19:34:31 »
They have a big selection, off the top of my head there's Quickfire Pro, Quickfire XT and Quickfire TK (tenkeyless size with a full layout, has a weird numpad combined with arrow keys), so just look around and see what you can find.

Are they all basically the same? I know that they have a large selection, but it's actually a little bit intimidating. If it doesn't matter which keyboard I pick (the performance is the same), I'll just choose the cheapest one that has a number pad.
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 February 2015, 19:58:19 by tetraslash »

Offline fierran123

  • Posts: 15
  • Mechanical keyboard lover
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 19:44:38 »
They have a big selection, off the top of my head there's Quickfire Pro, Quickfire XT and Quickfire TK (tenkeyless size with a full layout, has a weird numpad combined with arrow keys), so just look around and see what you can find.

Are they all basically the same? I know that they have a large selection, but it's actually a little bit intimidating. If it doesn't matter which keyboard I pick (the performance is the same), I'll just choose the cheapest one that has a number pad.

As far as I know, the Quickfire Pro is manufactured by iOne which has a shaky reputation due to the quality of their boards, but I think the others all have the same manufacturer and build quality. Let us know what you end up deciding on!

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 20:13:48 »
As far as I know, the Quickfire Pro is manufactured by iOne which has a shaky reputation due to the quality of their boards, but I think the others all have the same manufacturer and build quality. Let us know what you end up deciding on!

I looked up my local store as well as an online store and their selection of CoolerMaster keyboards. None of them are Cherry MX Reds that have the full keys. Only Blues and Browns and some others. It seems they really try to rock the reduced keyboard layout.

On a side note, I found out that the Corsair K70 (and K95) has issues with LEDs dying, so I have decided not to consider purchasing it.

Since CoolerMaster keyboards seem to be a little difficult for me to choose from, should I just go for a Filco or a Ducky?

Offline Defect

  • Posts: 670
  • I collect keyboards and keyboard accessories
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 20:22:29 »
If you like backlighting, get a shine 3 (there's one used in classifieds for 75, MX blacks I think.

If you do not care about backlighting, Filco is good.  But at that price point you may want to consider a KUL.

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 21:21:42 »
If you like backlighting, get a shine 3 (there's one used in classifieds for 75, MX blacks I think.

If you do not care about backlighting, Filco is good.  But at that price point you may want to consider a KUL.

Backlighting would be a plus if the price is around the same as the Filco. They all look like generic keyboards to me anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Should I get the Shine 3 or the Shine 4?

I did a bit of research just now, and I am leaning towards the Cherry MX Greens. A reviewer mentioned how they were similar to the feel of the buckling springs and that the key press actuates around the moment you hear the click, which is usually when you bottom out. This may just be the thing for me. I may also later on decide to purchase individual Cherry MX Blue or Red switches to replace important keys.

How easy is it to replace key switches?
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 February 2015, 21:24:26 by tetraslash »

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 21:44:00 »
They all look like generic keyboards to me anyway, so it doesn't really matter.  A reviewer mentioned how they were similar to the feel of the buckling springs and that the key press actuates around the moment you hear the click, which is usually when you bottom out. This may just be the thing for me. I may also later on decide to purchase individual Cherry MX Blue or Red switches to replace important keys.


  Just get a Buckling Spring keyboard.  What's the argument?  Those big ugly IBM keyboards eh?  I don't know, most of mine are over 20 years old.  And they still work.  I'm guessing you need direction and I pointed you the right way to begin with.

  Now you are going to fall into the trap of trying a ton of keyboards you will never be satisfied with because NONE OF THEM are buckling spring keyboards.

Just get one of these:
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/Classic/UB4044A
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/Classic/UNI044A

No fancy adapters or converters, These have Windows and Menu keys.  The 103 layout is the best.  Good luck with whatever you choose.

Edit: I have another thread on here somewhere...
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67076.0  That will even save you money on getting the 103.
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 February 2015, 22:22:09 by Snowdog993 »

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 04:05:11 »
The Quickfire XT is what I was refering to. It's the one I mentioned in my first post.

Greens have the same springs as Blacks, so can become fatiguing for long typing sessions. If you want light switches and clicky, then Blues are the ones to get, but you mentioned you had some troubles with them registering when typing quickly. Greens have the same mechanism, just stronger springs. The click happens quite a distance before bottoming out on both Blues and Greens. Buckling springs are heavier even than Greens or Blacks. So I'd still recommend Browns, Blues or Reds.

Buckling springs are even harder than Blacks (especially Model M's) and some of the old boards need a converter to work with a modern PC. If you're really interested in getting a buckling spring board, then I recommend looking for a Model F rather, as they have slightly lighter springs and much better typing feel than Model M's. They also use capacitive sensing where the M's use a membrane, so they have no "ghosting" in the matrix. Model M boards are only 2KRO. However, all Model F boards need at least a converter to work on a modern PC.

If you want backlighting, then the Ducky Shine 3 is hard to beat.

For keycaps, there are LOTS of options. This site has a Group Buys section where you'll find some nice sets. For a sample of the kinds of keycap sets that have been made: http://keypuller.com/

Arguably the best quality are probably GMK/Cherry doubleshot sets (Dolch, etc.), then thick Signature Plastics doubleshots (SA profile for example), although some would say Cherry dyesub PBT or Leopold PBT, although most aftermarket sets are a lot better than the keycaps that come stock on many boards. Keycaps are a whole new world, really. There are 3 main materials used (ABS, PBT and POM which all feel different), 5 main "profiles" (OEM, Cherry, DCS, DSA, SA) and 4 main types of creating the "printing" on the caps (dyesub, doubleshot, laser, pad printing). Profiles are the shape of the keycaps. Each material has different limitations (for instance PBT is very hard to doubleshot since it has a large thermal expansion coefficient and requires slow cooling) and some printing methods also have limitations (you can't dyesub a light colour onto a dark keycap). Profiles are usually limited to specific manufacturers, too (GMK and BSP make Cherry profile, Signature Plastics make DCS, DSA and SA). Most manufacturers don't accept orders from the public, but have quite high MOQ's (Minimum Order Quantity). That's why we create Group Buys, so we can order enough sets in one go from a manufacturer to meet their MOQ.

Another thing to keep in mind with keycaps is that, with one or two exceptions (Nostalgia set, Vortex PBT/POM sets, a couple of Déck sets), none of the better quality keycaps are designed for backlighting. They feel much better to type on, though.

Sorry for the wall of text, but hopefully you find it helpful.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 1091
  • Location: Asia
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 06:09:27 »
Backlighting would be a plus if the price is around the same as the Filco. They all look like generic keyboards to me anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Should I get the Shine 3 or the Shine 4?

I did a bit of research just now, and I am leaning towards the Cherry MX Greens. A reviewer mentioned how they were similar to the feel of the buckling springs and that the key press actuates around the moment you hear the click, which is usually when you bottom out. This may just be the thing for me. I may also later on decide to purchase individual Cherry MX Blue or Red switches to replace important keys.

You are getting pretty much every opinion under the sun in this thread.

Being pretty new here myself, but also having owned vintage BS keyboards and being very picky about input peripherals, the one thing I have decided for sure is that it all boils down to personal preference.

On GH you'll find people who love Topre or think it's a waste of money. Or love BS or think it's archaic and inferior to other switches. Or have a strong preference for particular MX switches (I am concluding that I don't like any stock MX switch, and find the Blues an especially tacky imitation of 1980s buckling spring technology). You've had people here suggest pretty much everything with the possible exception of Alps.

Basically it's time to get down to one of the stores you mentioned earlier and just try out as many keyboards as you can. Buy the one you like the feel of and you'll enjoy it.

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 14:11:11 »
  Just get a Buckling Spring keyboard.  What's the argument?  Those big ugly IBM keyboards eh?  I don't know, most of mine are over 20 years old.  And they still work.  I'm guessing you need direction and I pointed you the right way to begin with.

  Now you are going to fall into the trap of trying a ton of keyboards you will never be satisfied with because NONE OF THEM are buckling spring keyboards.

Just get one of these:
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/Classic/UB4044A
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/Classic/UNI044A

No fancy adapters or converters, These have Windows and Menu keys.  The 103 layout is the best.  Good luck with whatever you choose.

Edit: I have another thread on here somewhere...
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67076.0  That will even save you money on getting the 103.

It's important to note that I myself don't have much of an opinion against the buckling spring keyboards, but my mother certainly would. She takes things at face value, and a keyboard that looks like it came from the 80's (not too far off, huh) isn't exactly a great idea on my end. I know for sure she would complain 24/7/365 until I returned or resold it. I'd rather not have that kind of conflict with my mother, if you know what I mean.

I like the buckling spring keyboards, but I don't think they would be the #1 choice for me. I'm not looking for the utmost perfect keyboard.

Thanks a bunch for your recommendation :)!

The Quickfire XT is what I was refering to. It's the one I mentioned in my first post.

Greens have the same springs as Blacks, so can become fatiguing for long typing sessions. If you want light switches and clicky, then Blues are the ones to get, but you mentioned you had some troubles with them registering when typing quickly. Greens have the same mechanism, just stronger springs. The click happens quite a distance before bottoming out on both Blues and Greens. Buckling springs are heavier even than Greens or Blacks. So I'd still recommend Browns, Blues or Reds.

Buckling springs are even harder than Blacks (especially Model M's) and some of the old boards need a converter to work with a modern PC. If you're really interested in getting a buckling spring board, then I recommend looking for a Model F rather, as they have slightly lighter springs and much better typing feel than Model M's. They also use capacitive sensing where the M's use a membrane, so they have no "ghosting" in the matrix. Model M boards are only 2KRO. However, all Model F boards need at least a converter to work on a modern PC.

If you want backlighting, then the Ducky Shine 3 is hard to beat.

For keycaps, there are LOTS of options. This site has a Group Buys section where you'll find some nice sets. For a sample of the kinds of keycap sets that have been made: http://keypuller.com/

Arguably the best quality are probably GMK/Cherry doubleshot sets (Dolch, etc.), then thick Signature Plastics doubleshots (SA profile for example), although some would say Cherry dyesub PBT or Leopold PBT, although most aftermarket sets are a lot better than the keycaps that come stock on many boards. Keycaps are a whole new world, really. There are 3 main materials used (ABS, PBT and POM which all feel different), 5 main "profiles" (OEM, Cherry, DCS, DSA, SA) and 4 main types of creating the "printing" on the caps (dyesub, doubleshot, laser, pad printing). Profiles are the shape of the keycaps. Each material has different limitations (for instance PBT is very hard to doubleshot since it has a large thermal expansion coefficient and requires slow cooling) and some printing methods also have limitations (you can't dyesub a light colour onto a dark keycap). Profiles are usually limited to specific manufacturers, too (GMK and BSP make Cherry profile, Signature Plastics make DCS, DSA and SA). Most manufacturers don't accept orders from the public, but have quite high MOQ's (Minimum Order Quantity). That's why we create Group Buys, so we can order enough sets in one go from a manufacturer to meet their MOQ.

Another thing to keep in mind with keycaps is that, with one or two exceptions (Nostalgia set, Vortex PBT/POM sets, a couple of D�ck sets), none of the better quality keycaps are designed for backlighting. They feel much better to type on, though.

Sorry for the wall of text, but hopefully you find it helpful.

So functionally, the Greens are the exact same as the Blues but just a stiffer variant?

I've already done a lot of research on the Reds as well as Blues. I ruled out the Browns because around 7/10 places I visit state that the Reds are relatively better especially for gaming. Putting aside the occasional errors and light actuation, it's a great gaming keyboard. Or so they say.

I initially considered a Cherry MX Red keyboard with o-rings installed but then gradually moved onto the Greens after watching a video that spoke about how the user usually bottomed-out but the stiffness was just right for it to still give the clickiness and timing desired.

If I bottom-out but need quick double-tapping, would that be an issue for the Greens? Do they also suffer from double-tapping issues?

And I will be passing on the buckling springs keyboards.

I really don't know anything about custom key caps and their quality, so I'm venturing in unknown territory with them. I looked at some of the key caps as shown on that Key Puller website you referenced, and a lot of them look very nice. But are any of them for sale? Or are they just for display? Would you recommend that to keep life simple, I just focused on the key caps available for sale in the Group Buys section here?

I really have no idea about what the texture is called but, I prefer the texture that feels somewhat rough and dry with bumps like hard plastic.

You are getting pretty much every opinion under the sun in this thread.

Being pretty new here myself, but also having owned vintage BS keyboards and being very picky about input peripherals, the one thing I have decided for sure is that it all boils down to personal preference.

On GH you'll find people who love Topre or think it's a waste of money. Or love BS or think it's archaic and inferior to other switches. Or have a strong preference for particular MX switches (I am concluding that I don't like any stock MX switch, and find the Blues an especially tacky imitation of 1980s buckling spring technology). You've had people here suggest pretty much everything with the possible exception of Alps.

Basically it's time to get down to one of the stores you mentioned earlier and just try out as many keyboards as you can. Buy the one you like the feel of and you'll enjoy it.

Yes, that's certainly what it seems like! I feel that from what I've read, the difference between the different kinds of keyboards is marginal. I will head out to the store soon to try out the Cherry MX Greens to get a feel for what they're like. If they're not better than the Blues, then I'll move back to my choice of either Reds or Blues. I will likely test the Blues and Greens for double-tapping to see how they perform.

Thank you very much!

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 14:33:23 »

It's important to note that I myself don't have much of an opinion against the buckling spring keyboards, but my mother certainly would. She takes things at face value, and a keyboard that looks like it came from the 80's (not too far off, huh) isn't exactly a great idea on my end. I know for sure she would complain 24/7/365 until I returned or resold it. I'd rather not have that kind of conflict with my mother, if you know what I mean.

I like the buckling spring keyboards, but I don't think they would be the #1 choice for me. I'm not looking for the utmost perfect keyboard.

Thanks a bunch for your recommendation :)!


I'm glad I didn't have to make a decision based on what my mother thought.  So very interesting to hear that.  Maybe you should find something trendy and modern instead.  Hey, it's all about the looks!

Edit: I don't want to bankrupt you.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 February 2015, 14:59:57 by Snowdog993 »

Offline Defect

  • Posts: 670
  • I collect keyboards and keyboard accessories
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 14:59:31 »
FYI MX greens will also suffer from hysteresis like MX blues

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:12:00 »
I'm glad I didn't have to make a decision based on what my mother thought.  So very interesting to hear that.  Maybe you should find something trendy and modern instead.  Hey, it's all about the looks!

Edit: I don't want to bankrupt you.

Yes unfortunately. My mother is very nit-picky and I would rather save myself the frustration over the long-run. Maybe if I find one cheaply in the thrift store, I'll pick it up for novelty.

It's not so much the looks being the problem; the buckling spring keyboards just look old (well they technically are if you aren't talking about the Unicomp keyboards).

And no worries, I will keep my budget in mind so I can make an educated final decision :)!

FYI MX greens will also suffer from hysteresis like MX blues

Oh, I see. I will keep that in mind. Perhaps the stiffer keys may make incomplete lifts not as evident so that the actuations may still occur. I will test it out.

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:19:17 »

Yes unfortunately. My mother is very nit-picky and I would rather save myself the frustration over the long-run. Maybe if I find one cheaply in the thrift store, I'll pick it up for novelty.

It's not so much the looks being the problem; the buckling spring keyboards just look old (well they technically are if you aren't talking about the Unicomp keyboards).

And no worries, I will keep my budget in mind so I can make an educated final decision :)!


The only IBM keyboard that "looks" modern is probably the M13 Trackpoint.  Because of that, they are a bit more pricey.  I have one.  They are black with white lettering.  Pretty cool looking too.

Edit: This is partly why I am hesitant about answering you now.
I had to make a new picture too.
I bought a new spacebar.  The other one was a mess anyway.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:42:42 by Snowdog993 »

Offline Ludovician

  • Posts: 330
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:52:21 »
Assuming you earn your own income, your mother shouldn't really have a say in what you spend it on, and if she would be okay with you spending a a large portion of your money on a kb with bright flashing LEDs and a vibrating cup-holder then it shouldn't affect her if you just get a buckling spring one.

Ultimately it's smart to avoid conflict on the matter, I guess. Disappointing that you lack some options just because of how the keyboard looks.

Edit: If you get one and thoroughly clean it, maybe she wouldn't mind.
Typing speed:
More
Visit the Typing Test and try!

My collection:
More
HHKB Pro 2 (Blank, white) | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S (Blank, white) | Topre Realforce 87UB silent-modded (not currently functional) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (MX Brown) | IBM Model M 1391401 - 9th January 1991 (Bolt+Floss-modded) | Apple keyboard m0116 (Orange Alps) | Unidentified DIN Keyboard (White Alps) | ADDS 1010 (Green Alps) | AEK II (Linear-modded, USB-converted) | IBM PC-AT Model F | Noppoo Choc Mini (MX Black) | Amstrad PC2286 | BigKeys LX | IBM Model M 1391401 - 6th September 1990 | IBM Model M2 1395300 - 28th February 1991 | Leopold FC660C | Cherry G80-11802 (MX Brown) | Matias Tactile Pro (Simplfied grey Alps) | Razer Blackwidow (MX Blue) | Novatouch 55g | Focus FK-2001 (White alps) | DSE Multitech (Blue alps) | Dell AT101W (Matias quiet) | Pok3r (White w/Clears) | KBP V80 (Blue Alps)

Pending:
Infinity kit

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 16:12:33 »
The only IBM keyboard that "looks" modern is probably the M13 Trackpoint.  Because of that, they are a bit more pricey.  I have one.  They are black with white lettering.  Pretty cool looking too.

Edit: This is partly why I am hesitant about answering you now.
I had to make a new picture too.
I bought a new spacebar.  The other one was a mess anyway.

No worries! I welcome all suggestions as they give valuable insight. Maybe down the line I'll quit video gaming entirely and I'll want a true-blue typing keyboard.

And that keyboard is interesting. Why does it have a TrackPoint on it? Isn't it somewhat redundant with a mouse? I know the old IBM/Compaq laptops that had it (I used one before), but I don't think it's useful anymore.

I like the key design. It's very simplified. And the casing is much more modern as you say. This is a much more acceptable keyboard! How much is it? And why did you replace the spacebar?

Assuming you earn your own income, your mother shouldn't really have a say in what you spend it on, and if she would be okay with you spending a a large portion of your money on a kb with bright flashing LEDs and a vibrating cup-holder then it shouldn't affect her if you just get a buckling spring one.

Ultimately it's smart to avoid conflict on the matter, I guess. Disappointing that you lack some options just because of how the keyboard looks.

Edit: If you get one and thoroughly clean it, maybe she wouldn't mind.

Well the thing is, I don't really mind whether the keyboard is fancy, or not. However, my mother is the type of person who "judges a book by its cover" and "thinks she knows" what something is worth.

If I were to bring home a keyboard that looked like it came from an antique shop but costs $80, she'd throw a fit.

If I legitimately wanted a buckling spring keyboard right now, I'd have to custom-replace the casing entirely so it doesn't look like it's from the 80's. Maybe some others have done that already? But I doubt it, since people enjoy their look and feel.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 16:27:09 »
Given that you are just starting out with mechanicals and you would like something that worked right out of the box along with some modern features such as backlighting, then something like a full-size Ducky might be a good bet. If you type very fast and bottom out, then you might want to bypass switches with a tactile bump and/or a click and go for Cherry mx reds (light) or blacks (heavier). However, if you would like something more tactile (but without backlighting) then you might want to look at a Matias Quiet Pro or Tactile Pro. Down the road, if you would like to try a vintage board that requires installing a USB converter, then look into IBM Model F keyboards -- they have superb tactile feedback and work well with high-speed typing. In addition, unlike Model M keyboards, the Model F keyboards have NKRO and could be used for gaming. Good luck with your purchase!

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 16:33:13 »

No worries! I welcome all suggestions as they give valuable insight. Maybe down the line I'll quit video gaming entirely and I'll want a true-blue typing keyboard.

And that keyboard is interesting. Why does it have a TrackPoint on it? Isn't it somewhat redundant with a mouse? I know the old IBM/Compaq laptops that had it (I used one before), but I don't think it's useful anymore.

I like the key design. It's very simplified. And the casing is much more modern as you say. This is a much more acceptable keyboard! How much is it? And why did you replace the spacebar?


You can look up the M13 on Ebay and Amazon as well as ClickeyKeyboards.com.  They are much more expensive because it is a very popular keyboard.  This particular model is the only IBM keyboard in black with buckling springs.  I believe Unicomp had a short run of regular black keyboards with white lettering, but the lettering came off very easily, and they stopped making them.
You don't have to give up video gaming if you use these keyboards.  They work just fine.  My nephew plays quite a few different video games including DayZ and H1Z1 with an IBM keyboard, and he won't use anything else.  It's all up to you.

Edit: I replaced the spacebar because it was 18 years old and was making rattling noises unlike the other keyboards I have.  The new spacebar isn't worn down and doesn't rattle like the old one did.  It sounds right.  I guess it just needed to be replaced for that reason.  Here is a picture with the original spacebar.  I didn't have to replace it, but I did because it looks a lot better with the new one.  I suppose it didn't actually have to be done at all.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 February 2015, 16:47:03 by Snowdog993 »

Offline Ludovician

  • Posts: 330
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Typing speed:
More
Visit the Typing Test and try!

My collection:
More
HHKB Pro 2 (Blank, white) | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S (Blank, white) | Topre Realforce 87UB silent-modded (not currently functional) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (MX Brown) | IBM Model M 1391401 - 9th January 1991 (Bolt+Floss-modded) | Apple keyboard m0116 (Orange Alps) | Unidentified DIN Keyboard (White Alps) | ADDS 1010 (Green Alps) | AEK II (Linear-modded, USB-converted) | IBM PC-AT Model F | Noppoo Choc Mini (MX Black) | Amstrad PC2286 | BigKeys LX | IBM Model M 1391401 - 6th September 1990 | IBM Model M2 1395300 - 28th February 1991 | Leopold FC660C | Cherry G80-11802 (MX Brown) | Matias Tactile Pro (Simplfied grey Alps) | Razer Blackwidow (MX Blue) | Novatouch 55g | Focus FK-2001 (White alps) | DSE Multitech (Blue alps) | Dell AT101W (Matias quiet) | Pok3r (White w/Clears) | KBP V80 (Blue Alps)

Pending:
Infinity kit

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 11 February 2015, 04:34:44 »
Guys, I don't think a Model M is what the OP needs for the following reasons:

1. 2KRO. If you're going to game at all, this will become an issue.
2. Heavy springs. The OP mentioned he wants lighter switches and liked the feel of Blues. Model M springs are a lot harder then Blues.
3. Big, heavy board, doesn't look modern. OP mentioned he doesn't want a board that looks like it's from the 80's.
4. PS/2 port if you're lucky. If not, you need a converter.

What I recommend:

WASD Code full size with Clears and a Cherry profile keycaps set, Ducky Shine 3 full size with Cherry profile keycaps set or Leopold FC900R. Reasoning:

1. They're all full size, high quality, modern looking keyboards.
2. The Leopold has thick PBT Cherry profile (lower than normal) keycaps :)
3. Shine 3 and Leopold have NKRO, not sure about the Code, but it will be at least 6KRO+mods.
4. USB, so they'll work on any PC, laptops included.
5. The Code and Ducky have backlighting.
6. They're a lot less noisy than a Model M.... Not sure if it matters to the OP, but I thought I'd mention it. Especially if he wants to use the board at night in a house with other people in.

The reason I recommend the Code with Clears is that Clear switches, although heavier than Blues, have an interesting spring force profile. They start out similar to Blues / Reds / Browns, but after the actuation bump they get stiffer more quickly, so it's easier not to bottom out on them than the other MX variants, but they don't need much more force than the lighter switches to actuate. They're the most tactile of the stock MX switches and they don't have the hysteresis (difference in position of actuation and reset) of the clicky MX mechanism (Blues, Greens, Whites).

The reason I mention the Cherry profile keycap sets is that the OP mentioned he'd like shorter keycaps than standard. Leopold PBT keycap sets for sale on ebay have this profile, as do GMK doubleshot ABS keycaps and BSP dyesub PBT sets.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 11 February 2015, 11:06:19 »
Guys, I don't think a Model M is what the OP needs for the following reasons:

1. 2KRO. If you're going to game at all, this will become an issue.
2. Heavy springs. The OP mentioned he wants lighter switches and liked the feel of Blues. Model M springs are a lot harder then Blues.
3. Big, heavy board, doesn't look modern. OP mentioned he doesn't want a board that looks like it's from the 80's.
4. PS/2 port if you're lucky. If not, you need a converter.


Of course!  That's why I suggested what I did!  I'm too stupid to read!

Offline tetraslash

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 11 February 2015, 18:36:47 »
Given that you are just starting out with mechanicals and you would like something that worked right out of the box along with some modern features such as backlighting, then something like a full-size Ducky might be a good bet. If you type very fast and bottom out, then you might want to bypass switches with a tactile bump and/or a click and go for Cherry mx reds (light) or blacks (heavier). However, if you would like something more tactile (but without backlighting) then you might want to look at a Matias Quiet Pro or Tactile Pro. Down the road, if you would like to try a vintage board that requires installing a USB converter, then look into IBM Model F keyboards -- they have superb tactile feedback and work well with high-speed typing. In addition, unlike Model M keyboards, the Model F keyboards have NKRO and could be used for gaming. Good luck with your purchase!

Yes, I've looked both of those companies up and found them really interesting. However, after watching videos of the Matias keyboards, they appeared a bit stiffer than what I had hoped, and I scratched that company off of my list.

I currently have Ducky as my #1 choice at the moment, but I'm welcome to more suggestions. I will not be going for any buckling spring keyboards at this time.

You can look up the M13 on Ebay and Amazon as well as ClickeyKeyboards.com.  They are much more expensive because it is a very popular keyboard.  This particular model is the only IBM keyboard in black with buckling springs.  I believe Unicomp had a short run of regular black keyboards with white lettering, but the lettering came off very easily, and they stopped making them.
You don't have to give up video gaming if you use these keyboards.  They work just fine.  My nephew plays quite a few different video games including DayZ and H1Z1 with an IBM keyboard, and he won't use anything else.  It's all up to you.

Edit: I replaced the spacebar because it was 18 years old and was making rattling noises unlike the other keyboards I have.  The new spacebar isn't worn down and doesn't rattle like the old one did.  It sounds right.  I guess it just needed to be replaced for that reason.  Here is a picture with the original spacebar.  I didn't have to replace it, but I did because it looks a lot better with the new one.  I suppose it didn't actually have to be done at all.

Okay, I will keep that model noted down. Thank you very much!

clickykbs has one in stock for $300: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9244/subcatid/0/id/586806

Good God, that price...

Guys, I don't think a Model M is what the OP needs for the following reasons:

1. 2KRO. If you're going to game at all, this will become an issue.
2. Heavy springs. The OP mentioned he wants lighter switches and liked the feel of Blues. Model M springs are a lot harder then Blues.
3. Big, heavy board, doesn't look modern. OP mentioned he doesn't want a board that looks like it's from the 80's.
4. PS/2 port if you're lucky. If not, you need a converter.

What I recommend:

WASD Code full size with Clears and a Cherry profile keycaps set, Ducky Shine 3 full size with Cherry profile keycaps set or Leopold FC900R. Reasoning:

1. They're all full size, high quality, modern looking keyboards.
2. The Leopold has thick PBT Cherry profile (lower than normal) keycaps :)
3. Shine 3 and Leopold have NKRO, not sure about the Code, but it will be at least 6KRO+mods.
4. USB, so they'll work on any PC, laptops included.
5. The Code and Ducky have backlighting.
6. They're a lot less noisy than a Model M.... Not sure if it matters to the OP, but I thought I'd mention it. Especially if he wants to use the board at night in a house with other people in.

The reason I recommend the Code with Clears is that Clear switches, although heavier than Blues, have an interesting spring force profile. They start out similar to Blues / Reds / Browns, but after the actuation bump they get stiffer more quickly, so it's easier not to bottom out on them than the other MX variants, but they don't need much more force than the lighter switches to actuate. They're the most tactile of the stock MX switches and they don't have the hysteresis (difference in position of actuation and reset) of the clicky MX mechanism (Blues, Greens, Whites).

The reason I mention the Cherry profile keycap sets is that the OP mentioned he'd like shorter keycaps than standard. Leopold PBT keycap sets for sale on ebay have this profile, as do GMK doubleshot ABS keycaps and BSP dyesub PBT sets.

Thank you very much for the in-depth reply! Is this what you mean by "Cherry profile keycaps"? http://deskthority.net/review-f45/cherry-g80-3800-mx-board-2-0-t2256.html

They don't look that attractive and I don't want the sides to curve in so much. I often missed pressing keys on my old laptop that had similar looking keys.

So, the Leopold FC900R already has the keycaps, so there's no need to order them separately? I will keep that in mind. Is this the Leopold FC900R? http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=bbs/gnuboard.php&bo_table=notice&wr_id=211

It looks really nice, clean, and professional. However, it doesn't seem to be readily available for sale besides on eBay. I noticed that they have four kinds at the bottom. Unfortunately, I really have no idea what the different kinds of keycaps are, so I am totally lost. What's a Double Shot and what's a PBT? I really like this one in particular: http://i.imgur.com/VaoXXeo.png

On eBay, they seem really cheap compared to the others are exported straight from Korea, which I believe is Leopold's manufacturing country. That's good to know. I think it's this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leopold-FC900R-Mechanical-Keyboard-Cherry-MX-Blue-Double-Shot-LED-Korean-English-/271768252979

Are the Leopold's LEDs not considered backlighting?

I looked up some videos about the WASD Code, and some of the comments state that they have low quality keycaps. So I suppose I'll pass on it. What other keyboards have Clears in them? Or which would you say is the next best Cherry MX switch? Since you recommended the Ducky and the Leopold but they don't have Clears, what other Cherry switch should I consider for those?

Cherry MX Clear keyboards seem to be rare. Maybe it's easier to just buy another keyboard and then buy individual Clears to replace some of the switches.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 05:44:36 »
Hi

You can see the profiles in this pic:


Most boards come with OEM profile. "Cherry profile" is also contoured between rows, but is lower overall and very nice to type on.

Looks like there are 4 versions of the Leopold FC900R:


The PBT versions of the Leopold FC900R have Cherry profile, the ABS doubleshot (made with 2 different colours of plastic) looks more like OEM. Looks like only one version has backlighting and it has double shot ABS keycaps.

The caps on that Cherry G80-3800 are an odd profile made by Devlin for the Cherry corporation.

About the keycaps on the Code, that's why I mentioned to get a set of other caps. It's less hassle to change keycaps than it is to desolder and swap switches. Also, you could try the board for a while with the stock keycaps and change them if you don't like them.

Some Leopold Cherry profile sets:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PBT-Keycaps-Set-for-Cherry-MX-based-Leopold-Keyboard-Top-Face-Korean-Englih-Navy-/281541208101?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item418d29e825
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBT-Keycap-Set-Cherry-MX-based-Leopold-Keyboard-Front-Face-Englih-Black-/281535761839?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBT-Keycap-Set-Cherry-MX-based-Leopold-Keyboard-Front-Face-English-White-/271611781746?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBT-Keycap-Set-Cherry-MX-based-Leopold-Keyboard-Blank-Non-Printed-Navy-/271530133899?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

As I said before, though, most of the best quality sets in the nicest profiles don't allow the light from the backlight LED's to shine through.

In the end you have to decide for yourself which factors matter most to you: Switch type, backlighting, keycap material, keycap profile, aesthetics, etc...

Some links to research more:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keycap_construction
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_profile
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Ludovician

  • Posts: 330
  • Location: Queensland, Australia
Re: Hi, I would like some kind advice about my first mechanical keyboard!
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 06:19:50 »
I don't know what the general opinion of these are, and the more experienced people here should be able to elaborate on this, but I saw this just now and thought it might suit your needs.
Typing speed:
More
Visit the Typing Test and try!

My collection:
More
HHKB Pro 2 (Blank, white) | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S (Blank, white) | Topre Realforce 87UB silent-modded (not currently functional) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (MX Brown) | IBM Model M 1391401 - 9th January 1991 (Bolt+Floss-modded) | Apple keyboard m0116 (Orange Alps) | Unidentified DIN Keyboard (White Alps) | ADDS 1010 (Green Alps) | AEK II (Linear-modded, USB-converted) | IBM PC-AT Model F | Noppoo Choc Mini (MX Black) | Amstrad PC2286 | BigKeys LX | IBM Model M 1391401 - 6th September 1990 | IBM Model M2 1395300 - 28th February 1991 | Leopold FC660C | Cherry G80-11802 (MX Brown) | Matias Tactile Pro (Simplfied grey Alps) | Razer Blackwidow (MX Blue) | Novatouch 55g | Focus FK-2001 (White alps) | DSE Multitech (Blue alps) | Dell AT101W (Matias quiet) | Pok3r (White w/Clears) | KBP V80 (Blue Alps)

Pending:
Infinity kit