white vs black alps

[Special K]

Are complicated white alps the same as complicated black alps but with an added click, or do they feel fundamentally different?  I already own a Dell AT101W with black alps and to me the black alps don't feel extremely tactile; rather it's like you hit a region of higher friction, then the key bottoms out. 

I just want to know if the white alps feel fundamentally different from the blacks before I spend the money on a white alps board.  I've heard people say the white alps are very tactile, but if they are the same as the blacks then I guess I just don't feel it and will not spend the money on a white alps board.

[davkol]

I see you have an MX Brown Filco MJ2 and a Model M in your signature. Complicated white Alps switches are to black Alps' pretty much what buckling springs are to browns. In either case, the former has a stiff sharp peak, while the latter is nearly linear with a "double" gritty bump. The difference between buckling spring and complicated white Alps is in sound (the Alps switch is higher pitched) and actuation/peak point (Alps' actuate near the top, BS near the bottom).

[jacobolus]

Are complicated white alps the same as complicated black alps but with an added click, or do they feel fundamentally different?  I already own a Dell AT101W with black alps and to me the black alps don't feel extremely tactile; rather it's like you hit a region of higher friction, then the key bottoms out.

The black Alps switches in an AT101w are from sometime after 1995, and there’s reportedly a noticeable difference between those and black Alps switches from ~1993. There’s a quite noticeable difference between black and white Alps switches from the early 90s. I don’t think I have any white or black Alps switches from the late 90s, so I can’t too usefully compare those.

Matias tactile vs. clicky switches have a pretty similar feeling to each-other, but for “complicated” Alps (SKCM) switches, the clicky ones are distinctly more tactile than the non-clicky ones.

I’m not too surprised that you don’t like the switches from the AT101W. That seems to be a very common opinion. Also, depending on what condition the keyboard is, you might not be getting a fair baseline to compare to (and same goes for other people who didn’t like black Alps): there’s a pretty dramatic difference for basically any type of switch between new clean switches and ones that have been stored improperly and gotten limp (tactile leaves bent out of shape by staying pressed down for months/years) or scratchy (full of dust/grit).

[chyros]

They both feel like typical Alps switches, but the White Alps switch IS noticeably more tactile (this is caused by how the click/tactile leaf works in Alps switches). Or rather, Blacks have a considerably lower tactility than other Alps switches. The sound of Whites is also much nicer. I would definitely say the two are distinctly different, but not so different that if you hate Black Alps, you'll love Whites. If you like the Black Alps and want more where that came from, White Alps are definitely the next stop. Personally I think the other Alps switches I've tried feel nicer in one way or another, so if you're not convinced yet, don't think Blacks are the best Alps have to offer.

[Special K]

The black Alps switches in an AT101w are from sometime after 1995, and there’s reportedly a noticeable difference between those and black Alps switches from ~1993. There’s a quite noticeable difference between black and white Alps switches from the early 90s. I don’t think I have any white or black Alps switches from the late 90s, so I can’t too usefully compare those.

Which black alps board from the early 90s do you use/recommend?

[Special K]

They both feel like typical Alps switches, but the White Alps switch IS noticeably more tactile (this is caused by how the click/tactile leaf works in Alps switches). Or rather, Blacks have a considerably lower tactility than other Alps switches. The sound of Whites is also much nicer. I would definitely say the two are distinctly different, but not so different that if you hate Black Alps, you'll love Whites. If you like the Black Alps and want more where that came from, White Alps are definitely the next stop. Personally I think the other Alps switches I've tried feel nicer in one way or another, so if you're not convinced yet, don't think Blacks are the best Alps have to offer.

Do you think the AT101W is a good representation of black alps switches, or do you agree with jacobolus that black alps from the early 90s are distinctly different from the AT101W?

[Special K]

I should add that the reason I started this discussion is that I am considering buying a board from here: http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/.  According to the owner of the business, the black, white, and blue alps are all the same unless you have really sensitive fingers.  Others here seem to disagree based on past discussions I have read.  I have no reason to doubt the owner of NKR or the GH members, so I'm not sure what to think.  I want to buy a Northgate Omnikey 101 for the white alps, but not if they feel identical to black alps.

[jacobolus]

Which black alps board from the early 90s do you use/recommend?

I would recommend going for even earlier orange or salmon alps boards.

[chyros]

Which black alps board from the early 90s do you use/recommend?

I would recommend going for even earlier orange or salmon alps boards.

Salmons feel more tactile as well as smoother; they feel nicer. However, I have measured them at about 10 gf heavier than SKCM Black at roughly 80 gf which is pretty damn stiff. If you feel the typical Alps 70 gf is a lot, Salmon switches are probably too much.

They both feel like typical Alps switches, but the White Alps switch IS noticeably more tactile (this is caused by how the click/tactile leaf works in Alps switches). Or rather, Blacks have a considerably lower tactility than other Alps switches. The sound of Whites is also much nicer. I would definitely say the two are distinctly different, but not so different that if you hate Black Alps, you'll love Whites. If you like the Black Alps and want more where that came from, White Alps are definitely the next stop. Personally I think the other Alps switches I've tried feel nicer in one way or another, so if you're not convinced yet, don't think Blacks are the best Alps have to offer.

Do you think the AT101W is a good representation of black alps switches, or do you agree with jacobolus that black alps from the early 90s are distinctly different from the AT101W?

I have had several AT101Ws and one AT101 (but with Salmon switches) so I haven't actually had any ancient black Alps. Regardless, I'd say they are a good representation because as far as I'm aware the VAST majority of all Alps SKCM Black switches is in AT101Ws.

[jacobolus]

I have measured them at about 10 gf heavier than SKCM Black at roughly 80 gf which is pretty damn stiff. If you feel the typical Alps 70 gf is a lot, Salmon switches are probably too much.

There’s no way typical salmon alps switches are 80+ gf. Perhaps you got a very dirty batch which had substantial extra friction from dirt inside the switches? I do have one salmon switch from a spacebar which is noticeably heavier than the others, but in general I’d say salmon, white, and (dampened tactile) cream switches are pretty comparable in stiffness. I haven’t tried an AT101W, so I couldn’t tell you precisely how those compare to late-90s black switches.

[chyros]

I have measured them at about 10 gf heavier than SKCM Black at roughly 80 gf which is pretty damn stiff. If you feel the typical Alps 70 gf is a lot, Salmon switches are probably too much.

There’s no way typical salmon alps switches are 80+ gf. Perhaps you got a very dirty batch which had substantial extra friction from dirt inside the switches? I do have one salmon switch from a spacebar which is noticeably heavier than the others, but in general I’d say salmon, white, and (dampened tactile) cream switches are pretty comparable in stiffness. I haven’t tried an AT101W, so I couldn’t tell you precisely how those compare to late-90s black switches.

It's possible, BUT I tried it out on a bunch of switches; they were all cleaned thoroughly before testing, and I used an analytical balance (+/- 0.0001 g) to measure the weights I put on the switches. I made sure that it wasn't the impact of stacking the weights either, as I retried every amount of weights very gentle after activation (impact massively skews results) Blacks came out as 65-70 consistently, Salmons as 75-80 consistently. Also, Deskthority reports that they are "stiffer": http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Salmon .

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I had a beautifully clean salmon Alps keyboard (the one pictured on the wiki) that definitely had heavier-than-average switches — 75 to 80 g sounds reasonable. Sadly I sold it off long before I got an iMate, so I didn't test it thoroughly. The switches were smooth and consistent, but not terribly tactile, as I recall. Sadly, I never tested the switch weight either.