Keyboard Layouts

[joniho]

Hello ! the Delete for sure but here you can see a french guy typing with a local dvorak (the Bépo)

I type using the Japanese IME on occasion so having an easily accessible Enter key is crucial. But for English that seems like an efficient layout.

There needs to be some kind of Keyboard Revolution so we can get rid of historical artifacts like QWERTY and key staggering that bog down efficiency! (I have nothing to back up the last statement but it seems like another left-over from the pre-electronic days that serves no practical purpose in the here and now).

[Mikael le Fou]

Mikael, Welcome to Geekhack!
 I guess I'll have to lay off the french jokes for a while.  That's one quiet keyboard.

Thanks, no problem for the french jokes
The TM is already quiet but even more with silicone skins.

 

omg, is that our first frenchman?
I dont recall anyone (admitting to being) french before!
(wait - does he have 10 posts yet? Damn.)
 Actually I think its pretty cool that yet another nation has discovered mechanical switches

I can't believe I am the first french...  we like mechanical switches too, less than the german of course

There needs to be some kind of Keyboard Revolution so we can get rid of historical artifacts like QWERTY and key staggering that bog down efficiency! (I have nothing to back up the last statement but it seems like another left-over from the pre-electronic days that serves no practical purpose in the here and now).

Impossible mission but one of these days, who knows ?

I support strongly Dvorak and unstaggered keyboard.

Speaking of japanese, I just found this one last night...


http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html

[timw4mail]

Impossible mission but one of these days, who knows ?

I support strongly Dvorak and unstaggered keyboard.

Speaking of japanese, I just found this one last night...

Show Image

http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html

That's a very interesting keyboard, but the placement of the Caps Lock key, and the one key stagger of the bottom row seems to be counter-intuitive.

Any clue what kind of switches that keyboard might have?

[joniho]

Speaking of japanese, I just found this one last night...

Show Image

http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html

That's interesting that they arranged it by the Japanese phonetic alphabet column-by-column, and each finger is responsible for that column. This might help for memorization but it might be as inefficient as arranging the Latin alphabet alphabetically. Also I'm having nightmares of the Caps Lock key being where Shift normally is. If the bottom Latin-letter row was moved left a space (and the Caps was a normal-sized key or even a normal-sized Shift) then it might work.


At the bottom:

キースイッチ ： メカニカル（ドイツ Cherry社　MXシリーズ 茶軸）

MX Brown Cherries.


EDIT: Any of the better Japanese speakers here know how to describe the key alignment in Japanese?

[timw4mail]

Brown Cherries.  Crap.  I just convinced myself not to fool around with non-standard key staggering.

$200.  Oh.   Nevermind.

Yeah, $200 is too much for a curiosity board.

One of these days I should draw up a decent layout... but first I'd have to find software to do it I guess...

[quadibloc]

Where do you find one of these 101 key typewriters?

I don't know... but I'm sure that some steampunk converters will try for that last measure of authenticity.

Note from the diagram one thing I've noticed on real typewriters - the tab bar (on manual typewriters, it's a long bar above the keyboard, like the space bar, but shorter) and the space bar are supported by levers that go halfway between the 1/4 key (3/16") intervals defined by the key staggering.

[quadibloc]

One of these days I should draw up a decent layout... but first I'd have to find software to do it I guess...

I use Paintbrush myself (from Windows 3.1) (I find the interface easier to use than that of Paint).

While I don't approve of that layout either, I noticed from the larger photo on the web site that it approximates a QWERTY layout for the Latin alphabet, but with an extra row of keys between the bottom row and the spacebar. It's certainly easy enough for the thumbs to reach that far down, so it is a possibility that could be explored for a keyboard design with normal staggering of the keys in the rows.

EDIT: I thought I'd give another try to designing the "perfect" layout. Of course, small variations, like going back to the standard 101-key layout for the main typing area, to avoid keys between it and the function keys, putting the Windows keys back, and so on, are possible to better match individual preferences:


EDIT: Hmm. Might want to switch the Caps Lock and Print Screen to match the order of the lights...

EDIT: As you'll notice, I've done that. Since this image is on my web site, I can't really keep the old version when I make a change. (The old version did not have the Windows keys, shown by diamonds, and so the five keys above Insert et cetera were one key to the left, and they were in the order Caps Lock, Num Lock, Print, Scroll Lock, Pause.)

[joniho]

I remember Wellington linking the TypeMatrix non-standard layout board; they come in blank keys too.



This could be fun for custom key mappings. Like remapping the right Shift as an Enter key (because I'm stubborn like that).

If only they had mechanical switches.

EDIT: Just realized these are just silicone skins that wrap around the original keyboard. Might be a lot of typos this way.
EDIT2: There IS a blank model though:

[spremino]

While I don't approve of that layout either, I noticed from the larger photo on the web site that it approximates a QWERTY layout for the Latin alphabet, but with an extra row of keys between the bottom row and the spacebar. It's certainly easy enough for the thumbs to reach that far down, so it is a possibility that could be explored for a keyboard design with normal staggering of the keys in the rows.

Easy enough is not enough. Spacebar should be right under your thumb, because it's the most used character in Western languages. Japanese don't use space that much, therefore they don't need immediate access to the bar.

[quadibloc]

True. His description is accurate, but his choice of photo is poor.

But given that he got permission from Staples to take a photo of a keyboard in their store... evidently, he must be some poor unfortunate who can't afford a computer of his own, so that he could have taken a picture of his own keyboard. So while he did make a mistake, there are doubtless countless sites out there with pictures of the real standard 104-key keyboard, and he should be forgiven.

[watduzhkstand4]

I still can't imagine myself typing on a type matrix board. If I own one, I think I'll probably just use the whole thing as a programmable keypad or something.

[JBert]

These non-staggered keyboards are probably better when they would be split, or the two blocks would be set at an angle.

[joniho]

That probably wouldn't make it viable for notebooks, but so far the Type Matrix seems to be the best bare-minimum that can transition easiest to other platforms.

[timw4mail]

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

[joniho]

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

Does AutoHotKey work for remapping?


Also, from reading older posts I know how people here LOVE the TypeMatrix, if you're curious they are coming out with a fully hardware programmable version later this Fall.

[timw4mail]

Does AutoHotKey work for remapping?

I want to design a layout, not remap keys.

[spremino]

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

On Windows, there is Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator. It allows you to remap character keys only, however. To remap other keys, you'll need either AutoHotKey (a runtime solution) or SharpKeys (a system wide solution).

On Linux, have a good fight with Xmodmap's (a runtime solution) or XKB's (creating a new layout) scripts, if a GUI solution is not still available.

I've done both Windows and Mac. Some day I'll write down a tutorial.

On a Mac, I don't know.

[JBert]

People can't read...

@timw4mail: ask DreymaR, he made some SVG drawings in Inkscape recently.
You could of course also use quadibloc's drawings of keyboard layouts as a template.

[nanu]

This is arguably more effort, but if you're lazy to edit graphics and instead prefer to edit text to create a US/ANSI layout, I wrote some HTML/CSS for that, albeit originally for a Filco tenkeyless: black on white | white on black.

You can save the webpage locally and edit that, or modify the PHP source.

I recommend viewing the results in Safari for assembling an image based on screenshot or screenshots, depending on your screen's space.  Safari's font rendering (on Windows, too) is beefy and subpixel-agnostic.



Well, I got lazy to style the numpad, actually, so those are blank: black on white | white on black.

After attempting this, I realize it takes some effort to emphasize glyphs and get proportions looking nice.   The people who design beautiful keyboard typography should be praised.

[DreymaR]

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

Portable Keyboard Layout (PKL) by Farkas Máté (Autohotkey-based) for Windows users. In my opinion, hardly anything better. You can use a MSKLC file as your starting point. [If you can't find out what MSKLC is, you don't deserve to be making keyboard layouts, hehe.]

However, anyone interested in making keyboard layouts should really really REALLY peruse the Colemak forums extensively. There's a lot of work already done on the subject, as you'll find.

[DreymaR]

I thought I'd give another try to designing the "perfect" layout.

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

Kinda like how Webwit keeps telling people to fiddle less with their old-fashioned keyboards when there are modern inventions like the DataHand around, but much much worse in my opinion.

[timw4mail]

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

Kinda like how Webwit keeps telling people to fiddle less with their old-fashioned keyboards when there are modern inventions like the DataHand around, but much much worse in my opinion.

There are worse things than Qwerty...like alphabetical.

As willing as I am to use alternative programs and OS's...I wouldn't be able to stand the constant need to switch keycap sets, OS keyboard layouts, and the time it actually takes to learn a new keyboard layout.

[spremino]

About the perfect layout... trust me, you'll be wasting your time, unless you follow some ground-breaking design decision: moving control keys (alt, ctrl, enter, tab...) around, using a different keyboard (es: japanese)...

I'm in a hurry to explain further, but indeed you can't beat current layouts on their same grounds.

Cheers.

[Shawn Stanford]

I'd love to try a New Standard if it came in QWERTY layout. The reslanted keys and low real-estate are very appealing...

[JBert]

I'd love to try a New Standard if it came in QWERTY layout. The reslanted keys and low real-estate are very appealing...

[img of alphabet matrix keyboard]

That is a keyboard for kids who are learning their alphabet. I wonder what its carpalx score would be.

When will some hardware manufacturer try colemak for a change?

[quadibloc]

About the perfect layout... trust me, you'll be wasting your time, unless you follow some ground-breaking design decision: moving control keys (alt, ctrl, enter, tab...) around, using a different keyboard (es: japanese)...

I'm in a hurry to explain further, but indeed you can't beat current layouts on their same grounds.

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

Well, if you want Dvorak, you just go to Control Panel.

I'm in agreement that the standard IBM 101-key layout is not in need of very much improvement from the perspective of the typist who wants something almost exactly like a standard 44-key (not counting the space bar or any non-printing keys) electric typewriter.

But what my illustration shows is that one could even add the international key and yet achieve an even more exact match to the traditional typewriter arrangement.

[joniho]

On quadibloc's layout:

I personally like how the width of the standard typing area was reduced by one key. I generally dislike layouts where you have to reach further for a non-wide Backspace key, so I like how, although it's standard-size, it's in the same location as the left part of the typical wider Backspace key.

[quadibloc]

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

There was more I should have said before. Although I'm into subtle rather than radical, I also think that if people seek faster typing, Dvorak and friends (like Colemak) don't go far enough.

Instead, look at Stenotype machines - or their relatives, such as Velotype (now called the Veyboard). Chord all the letters in a syllable at one time, with the letters on the keyboard so ordered that this is possible. It requires true n-key rollover, and existing designs are only phonetic, so dictionaries are needed to get correct spelling - but that does increase speed, enough so that it's used for things like closed captioning.

[spremino]

There was more I should have said before. Although I'm into subtle rather than radical, I also think that if people seek faster typing, Dvorak and friends (like Colemak) don't go far enough.

Instead, look at Stenotype machines - or their relatives, such as Velotype (now called the Veyboard). Chord all the letters in a syllable at one time, with the letters on the keyboard so ordered that this is possible. It requires true n-key rollover, and existing designs are only phonetic, so dictionaries are needed to get correct spelling - but that does increase speed, enough so that it's used for things like closed captioning.

Indeed they look interesting. According to Wikipedia: Stenography keyboards are generally more difficult to learn than the Veyboard, but trained operators can go faster, even as high as 300 words per minute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

Also a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0M6dYWxDuw

Why caring for one letter-at-a-time layouts?

[ch_123]

That is a keyboard for kids who are learning their alphabet. I wonder what its carpalx score would be.

I think the current order of the alphabet is too arbitrary, and should be re-arranged in QWERTY order...

[timw4mail]

About the perfect layout... trust me, you'll be wasting your time, unless you follow some ground-breaking design decision: moving control keys (alt, ctrl, enter, tab...) around, using a different keyboard (es: japanese)...

I'm in a hurry to explain further, but indeed you can't beat current layouts on their same grounds.

Cheers.

There's no such thing as a perfect layout. The idea is just to incrementally improve the layout.

[spremino]

There's no such thing as a perfect layout. The idea is just to incrementally improve the layout.

What makes you think that each layout is not perfect already in its own way? Dvorak maximizes hand alternation and "flow", Colemak minimizes same finger while remaining compatible with Qwerty, Arensito minimizes same finger while maximizing "rolls", Maltron gives more power to the thumbs, ecc. That's why I said that unless you have different goals, your layout is unlikely to be noticeably better than those available. You should try to think out of the box and come out with a layout which has some benefits not available with others.

Have fun! ;-)

[Tony]

Quest for perfection makes you tense, and that's not good for your health (joking :-)

It is useless debate about which layout is better, since it is quite subjective.

Qwerty got the most number of followers, since it is de facto standard, and most people feels that they are not typing much enough to invest time to learn a new layout, or they have to use other's computers.

Personally I think that Dvorak, Colemak, Workman, Arensito and other modern layouts are pretty the same. They are 30% improvement from Qwerty, but their difference in ergonomics is too small (1-2%) for us to notice.

I am a Colemak user for 40 days and I am happy with that. Recommended for anyone who types a lot and have RSI or CTS after 1-2 hours of typing.



For anyone who don't type much, or have to use a lot of computers each day (IT repairman, perhaps), then you should stick with old-and-tried Qwerty.

[msiegel]

remember the early 80s when home computers placed Return outside the home row

i wonder if there's an advantage?