Laptop Keyboards, Sigh

[Great Hierophant]

Why do laptop makers consistently and continually neglect the layout and mechanics of their keyboards?  Who really wants to type on them?

Let me start with mechanics.  Modern laptop keys are often almost flat.  This makes it difficult to distinguish between one key and another.  I use some force when I type on any keyboard, but on a laptop when I type I frequently get f, h, v, t when I hit the "g" key.  There is very little travel distance and consequently little feedback.  I think the Apple //c had an excellent mechanics for a portable computer that would fit in a laptop today.  

Let me continue to layout.  I hate small keys, my ideal keyboard has the keys all the same size?  Why should the Esc and Function keys smaller than the other keys?  There is usually plenty of room between them and the screen hinge to use full-size keys.  What use to companies expect us to make of tiny arrow keys?  If you have a numberpad on your laptop, the cursor and arrow control keys are superfluous.  It especially galls me because laptops are heavily used by business people, who would need a fully functional keyboard for their work.  I can understand needing to cut down on the space, but there is a lot of wasted space on a laptop.

[InSanCen]

You've never taken one apart then I take it?

Most of the "spare" room between the KB and hinge is taken up by Chassis (The hinge needs something substantial to hang off). Depending on Design/Manufacturer, there can also be Circuitry or add-in cards up there.

But, redesign the whole laptop chassis with a full-size KB in mind, and there is room to be found.

But, a smaller KB, makes the laptop look smaller (Check out pictures of lappy's with identical screen sizes, but with thin and thick "bezels" around the keys) and that will always shift more unit's than small things like people *****ing about keyboards (We are an incredibly small, if vocal, percentage of purchasers).

InSanCen (Part of my job is fixing bloody laptops)

[D-EJ915]

they could make the keys bigger (taller) and have more travel but it would cut down on the space the "omg teh awesome fastness" components take up which nobody in the market would give up lol

[Rajagra]

they could make the keys bigger (taller) and have more travel but it would cut down on the space the "omg teh awesome fastness" components take up which nobody in the market would give up lol

They could have as much travel as they liked if they allowed the screen to push the keys down. It would need a serious protective layer though.

[ch_123]

I'd rate the keyboard on my Thinkpad as one of the most pleasant keyboards Ive ever typed on. But a lot of cheaper laptops have pretty **** ones alright.

[kode]

now, an nvidia tegra based laptop, for example, could very well leave room for a keyboard with better travel as well as all the other properties of a decent keyboard..

but noone would make such a laptop. there'd be no market for a portable computer with a good keyboard in it.

[Great Hierophant]

I have never cared for the Thinkpad layout, but the ones with the numeric keypad make up for alot of mistakes.  I hate that the function key is to the left of the control key rather than to the right.  

Since you have a numberpad, you can remap the F1-F10 keys to the 1-0 keys, the ~ to the Esc.  But that damn Fn key is terrible.

[timw4mail]

Wasn't there a time that Laptops actually had decent scissor-switch keyboards?

[itlnstln]

Wasn't there a time that Laptops actually had decent scissor-switch keyboards?

Hell, there was a time when laptops had Alps switches.  Those days are long gone.

[quadibloc]

Hell, there was a time when laptops had Alps switches.  Those days are long gone.

Yes, but it is understandable that today's manufacturers are trying to produce laptops that look like the MacBook Air rather than like the Toshiba T1000 or even the Toshiba T3100.

[Bollwerk]

Couldn't they fit in ML-Switches? They aren't too high, but still higher than Scissors, though.

To be frank, people wouldn't like the MLs, I think. There was one guy at amazon, who was whining, that his G84-5200 was so loud compared to his evolution stream. He claimed, that cherry once stood for quality.

Noise... Quality. Well. Scissors are hyping, so notebooks have the right technology for the market. Scissors aren't that bad in my opinion. Ok. Not very durable, but ok to type on, if I'm too lazy to bring my G84-4100 or even the filco along.

Notebook with alps... :faint:

[rdjack21]

Yes, but it is understandable that today's manufacturers are trying to produce laptops that look like the MacBook Air rather than like the Toshiba T1000 or even the Toshiba T3100.

That's funny I've been keeping an eye on a T1100+ over on ebay trying to decide if I want to get it. I had one in collage and have fond memories of it and the keyboard. The only reason I have not grabed one yet is I'm worried that doing so will start a new collecting habit. I'm seeing way to many cool old portable computers that I would just have to get if I got started.

[timw4mail]

Couldn't they fit in ML-Switches? They aren't too high, but still higher than Scissors, though.

To be frank, people wouldn't like the MLs, I think. There was one guy at amazon, who was whining, that his G84-5200 was so loud compared to his evolution stream. He claimed, that cherry once stood for quality.

Noise... Quality. Well. Scissors are hyping, so notebooks have the right technology for the market. Scissors aren't that bad in my opinion. Ok. Not very durable, but ok to type on, if I'm too lazy to bring my G84-4100 or even the filco along.

Notebook with alps... :faint:

It would be nice to have laptop keyboards with ML switches. The noise thing isn't so much the switch as bottoming out the keycaps.

Since scissor-switch keys tend to have relatively little 'lip' on the keys, they don't tend to make as much noise bottoming out. The "chiclet"-like scissor switches would make even less noise, since the scissor itself tends to bottom out before the key.

[justin]

Can some of you who have ThinkPads elaborate a bit more on the keyboards? I've never typed on one, but I'm thinking about getting one to make a hackintosh out of if the keyboards are really that much better than Apple's laptop keyboards. Are they better than the 1st gen Apple aluminum MacBook & Powerbook G4 keyboards? (the ones with the square metal keys, not the modern "chiclet" keys) How do they feel? What are the switches like? Would they make ideal laptops for extensive touch typing?

edit: Another question I had is, how do they handle having the keys rearranged, to say — Dvorak? The Apple keyboards are so fragile that you risk not being able to put them back together after you remove the keycaps!

[ch_123]

I've never typed on a G4 iBook, but I heard that they had amazing keyboards. I have a Thinkpad T61, and it's probably the best laptop keyboard I've typed on. It has just the right balance between softness and tactility. There are two issues I can point out -

1. My left shift is a bit dodgy sometimes, won't register sometimes for some reason.
2. There's a bit of flex towards the top. Sometimes it's quite noticeable, other times it's not.

The first issue isn't that much of a big one, because if you have a dud board (which doesnt seem to be too common with the Thinkpads) a replacement Thinkpad keyboard doesn't cost much (I think about $20-30 depending on model). As for the second bit, if you buy an older Thinkpad (i.e. one from the days when they were made by IBM) or one of the smaller X series ones, you get keyboards with almost no flex. But then again, the new cheap ones are still good, and better than the competition.

And yes, they are as good for touch typing as you will get with short travel switches.

[justin]

Hmm. I just helped my fiancee find a G4 iBook on eBay for school. She wanted a Mac laptop for less than the price of a netbook. Got a fantastic deal on one. I'll have to try out the keyboard when it comes. I was thinking about getting a Thinkpad X60 for myself to use as a portable machine with a bit more muscle than my netbook has. That would have one of the stiffer keyboards you mentioned, which is a very good thing.