are we too hard on the vendors?

[wellington1869]

I'm curious what people think.

personally I dont think we are - we heap praise on them when we like them or when we get great service etc. Just read any of the reviews in the review section; people constantly mention and celebrate their favorite vendors or great service.

But wondering what others think. The site is getting more influential after all.

[rdjack21]

I think we do a pretty good job myself. We really only beat up vendors when their boards are bad and we can prove they are bad or have issues. We really don't complain that much about bad service oh we will mention it but we don't harp on it like we do bad boards.

For those vendors with really outstanding service though we do tend to praise them quite a bit. But that is as it should be. Lucky for us most of the mechanical keyboard vendors tend to have good service.

[alpslover]

i think we tell it like it is, and that's the way it should be.

it's not like there aren't many many other sites out there that give heaps of praise and editor's choice awards to every product they review.  we balance that out a bit, at least for keyboards.

[huha]

I think we're a bit US-centric, so boards easily available in the US get a bit more love. My first Filco board will arrive shortly, but I guess they're a little bit overrated.

But all in all, I think we're doing quite well.

-huha

[Rajagra]

The manufacturers get some harsh words, we're nicer to the vendors. Easily happens when they are more distanced from us.

[wellington1869]

The manufacturers get some harsh words, we're nicer to the vendors. Easily happens when they are more distanced from us.

are we too hard on manufacturers then?

[Rajagra]

The gloves seem to come off when irocks is mentioned.
(Thinking more of the tone than the content.)

[rdjack21]

are we too hard on manufacturers then?

No the manufacture is the one that is ultimately responsible for the product. They deserve praise when they get it right but they deserve the beating they get when the product has issues that go unfixed. I just wish more of them would show up here and at least acknowledge the problems and tell us they are working on it. But they don't.

What I would really love to see is a few of the manufactures coming over here and asking us for input on their next board. For instance wouldn't it be cool if a Filco rep showed up here and asked what kinds of keyboards we would like for them to build. Or to ask if there is anything we would change in the current line up. I mean look at the stuff elitekeyboards has been able to get because we have asked. But that is different than having a Filco rep that would have input into the design of the next version of their boards.

But who I would really love to see show up but I know I'm dreaming is PFU. I know many of us would love to give some input on changes they could make to the HHKB Pro.

[lal]

But who I would really love to see show up but I know I'm dreaming is PFU. I know many of us would love to give some input on changes they could make to the HHKB Pro.

Yep, for example they could lower the price to something like production-costs + 20%.  That would be about 40$ >

SCNR

[o2dazone]

Vendors play an important role in bringing us cool new stuff. In return, they get "free reviews" in the forms of critiques, and discussions. I think "being too hard on vendors" but making strong critical reviews is part of the process. It can be a thin line between sandbagging a vendor, and giving an honest, fair review. Thankfully we have enough level headed users on here to sort most of the bs

[o2dazone]

You can never be too hard on the douchebags from irocks.

First, they came together and thought up that name. ****ing wannabees and marketing drones. I think they think they are pretty smart. It makes me puke.

Then, they do the fashionable marketing thing of going to the elite of users of their products and trying to game them, with the hope these users will then freely advertise their craptastic keyboards. Oh, if it only was that simple.

Really, I can smell these buzzword losers from a thousand miles. Two thousand. Harsh? This is purely reactionary.  They want to game customers like the customer is some kind of *******. They decided to game geekhack not because they respect us, but they also think we're some kind of simpleton *******s who can easily be manipulated. Now that would require some marketing TALENT, not these losers.

Tell us how you really feel lmao

[wellington1869]

i missed the whole irocks thing. i can see how webwit feels about it (lol!) but what did they do exactly? Is there a thread out there somewhere with the irock clash?

well in an ideal world we would all be making critique sandwiches (praise, criticize, praise) but we're all individuals too Cant really control individual opinions on a forum.

In that sense geekhack isnt a magazine thats doing reviews of products like cnet or hothardware etc (with a board of editors who can control the tone of the content).  Its a free for all, only the ensuing debate can influence the overall tone of the content.

[nanu]

What I don't understand is why we'll never get what we materially want, by default.

You can't really blame the vendor, or rather, I see no point of bashing the wrong department, especially when designers are selfish to begin with, so even making suggestions doesn't always help.  I'd most easily blame the designers or manufacturers for failing most of time, but the designs I want probably aren't affordable either, which then goes back on me.

As a modder, I'm increasingly seeing DIY as the solution to everything material and the compromise between affordability versus feasibility. I feel most satisfied this way because I will have known that the achievements and shortcomings were on my behalf, that I had control in the process.

[jkkhop]

You can never be too hard on the douchebags from irocks.

First, they came together and thought up that name. ****ing wannabees and marketing drones. I think they think they are pretty smart. It makes me puke.

Then, they do the fashionable marketing thing of going to the elite of users of their products and trying to game them, with the hope these users will then freely advertise their craptastic keyboards. Oh, if it only was that simple.

Really, I can smell these buzzword losers from a thousand miles. Two thousand. Harsh? This is purely reactionary.  They want to game customers like the customer is some kind of *******. They decided to game geekhack not because they respect us, but they also think we're some kind of simpleton *******s who can easily be manipulated. Now that would require some marketing TALENT, not these losers.

Haha what is this guy's problem. You think you own this forum?

[lal]

Why?  Webwit's being quite explicit.  Just like webwit.  Don't take the other rant personal, jkkhop

[InSanCen]

He just says it as he sees it.

what's the problem with that?

This is a forum with little moderation, and opinions get expressed. Nothing in Webwit's post about owning the forum.

[Bruce]

I have an obvious interest to declare here, but I also have a foot in both camps.

IMHO the fact that should come first and foremost is that this is a forum started by Keyboard enthusiasts for the enjoyment of Keyboard enthusiasts. It is the diversity of opinion that makes it work.

So I would say, no, you are never too hard on anyone.

[JBert]

i missed the whole irocks thing. i can see how webwit feels about it (lol!) but what did they do exactly? Is there a thread out there somewhere with the irock clash?

[strike]I can't say it firsthand, but from reading a few old threads it seems that iRocks was marketing gamer keyboards with 10-something-KRO and other features while none of it is true. Sure, they altered the key matrix to support common gamer combinations up to 8 or more keys, but that doesn't mean the whole keyboard works like that.[/strike]

EDITED: I should have checked my sources, seems I misread some stuff.

[wellington1869]

I can't say it firsthand, but from reading a few old threads it seems that iRocks was marketing gamer keyboards with 10-something-KRO and other features while none of it is true. Sure, they altered the key matrix to support common gamer combinations up to 8 or more keys, but that doesn't mean the whole keyboard works like that.

interesting, thanks. Ya I can see how that would raise the ire of geekhackers  If there's one thing we seem to hate its boards that dont perform as promised.

[wellington1869]

webwit, king of geekhack: :-D

you best stay on his good side

[Special K]

I can't say it firsthand, but from reading a few old threads it seems that iRocks was marketing gamer keyboards with 10-something-KRO and other features while none of it is true. Sure, they altered the key matrix to support common gamer combinations up to 8 or more keys, but that doesn't mean the whole keyboard works like that.

Can anyone provide a link to these threads?

[InSanCen]

Damn. Just when I wanted to answer "yes".

Well, you didn't say it, it was taken as read ;-)

[JBert]

Here are some threads about i-rocks:
i-rocks KR-6230 with brown Cherry MX
(Post in other thread) skyian explaining his experience with the 6230

Now it seems I misread the second link I referred to. There is not necessarily a problem with the matrix, rather it is a limitation in USB HID. See the post for more details.

So I guess the best way to know what webwit has against i-rocks is to let him tell the whole story.

[wellington1869]

So I guess the best way to know what webwit has against i-rocks is to let him tell the whole story.

can I get some popcorn and soda?

[timw4mail]

It's the reverse L shaped enter key. Pure evil.

Reverse, or upside down? Personally I'd hate the upside-down L enter key more than the reverse L enter key.

[Special K]

Reverse, or upside down? Personally I'd hate the upside-down L enter key more than the reverse L enter key.

Aren't those standard in non-US keyboards?

[itlnstln]

webwit, king of geekhack: :-D
 
you best stay on his good side

Better not say that when iMav's around.

[quadibloc]

Reverse, or upside down? Personally I'd hate the upside-down L enter key more than the reverse L enter key.

Myself, I consider the reverse-L enter key a slight improvement on the normal 101-key enter key. What I hate on most of the keyboards that have it is that they take the |\ key, and put it between += and Backspace. When a keyboard instead puts |\ on the far side of the right shift key, I'm happy - because what I don't like is not being able to reach the Backspace key, not a bigger Enter key.

But my favorite style of Enter key is the upside-down L enter key. If it's in the right position. The problem with the keyboards that have one is that they place a key between it and the "' key.

The problem with putting it in the "right" place, though, is that there's no good way to keep the {[ key next to the }] key, unless you make massive changes to the layout.

For example, you might put {[ and }] between the right-hand Alt and Ctrl keys, moving the right-hand Windows shift and the Windows menu key to the far side of the Enter key! And |\ could replace {[ in that case.

I would adore such a design, but I have to admit most keyboard makers would find it too adventurous.

[spremino]

I would adore such a design, but I have to admit most keyboard makers would find it too adventurous.

I'm curios but I can't imagine such layout. Would you post a picture, please? Thanks.

[Rajagra]

I'm curios but I can't imagine such layout. Would you post a picture, please? Thanks.

This isn't quite what he means, but having the Enter (and right shift) closer to the the right pinkie would be an improvement. And if the mountain won't come to Mohammed...

[spremino]

This isn't quite what he means, but having the Enter (and right shift) closer to the the right pinkie would be an improvement. And if the mountain won't come to Mohammed...

Show Image

Thanks.

Shifting one column to the right? That's what I do on my keyboards. Now I'm thinking about putting Backspace instead of \ and Enter instead of / (in your picture), maybe because on a Model M standard positions are tiring for right pinky.

[spremino]

Technically it's also shifting the bottom row to the left.

Right. However, according to letter frequencies, bottom left keys are the least used (except C):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English-slf2.PNG

There is not much gain in improving access to them.

I've mapped the Z in your picture as Esc.

Control is more frequently used than Alt, therefore I've swapped them and I'm accessing Control using my thumbs.

[spremino]

Hmm... that's a good experiment.  I thought E,R,T felt great and it was the bottom keys that sucked.  May completely blow my mind though since it's no longer an angling of the wrist change.

I've grown used to it quite fast. That's why I'm looking for a japanese keyboard: I could access more modifiers with my thumbs.

However, every keyboard customization starts with remapping Caps Lock with something useful. I've remapped it as left Shift (because of its tiny size in the ISO layout).

[quadibloc]

I'm curios but I can't imagine such layout. Would you post a picture, please? Thanks.

Well, this picture:

shows what I mean by moving the Carriage return of an upside-down L type one key to the left... in this case, on the layout of the 122-key keyboard. The other extra key is moved to the far side of the left-hand shift; the right-hand shift, being longer, might have been a better choice.

Now, just think of the two Windows keys on the right-hand side of a 104-key keyboard changing places with the square and curly bracket keys where I had put them.

[Rajagra]

Raj, have you tried the pyramid thing yet?  It's pretty weird.  The bottom left keys were the hardest for me.

No, I'm currently using Colemak layout with the key left of Z as a AutoHotkey modifier.

I'm quite tempted to go the whole hog and make a Carpalx QGMLWB layout, but shifted into a pyramid. If they ever make a programmable QIDO device I think it would be worthwhile.

[spremino]

No, I'm currently using Colemak layout with the key left of Z as a AutoHotkey modifier.

I'm quite tempted to go the whole hog and make a Carpalx QGMLWB layout, but shifted into a pyramid.

I would not recommend switching from Colemak to QGMLWB. Carpalx has been criticized for not minding same finger frequency. OTOH, Colemak scores high on every aspect.

[Rajagra]

I would not recommend switching from Colemak to QGMLWB. Carpalx has been criticized for not minding same finger frequency. OTOH, Colemak scores high on every aspect.

Ah, thanks. I think that switching from left-slanted keyboard to a pyramid-slanted arrangement would be easiest to do if you learn a completely new layout at the same time.

But I am happy with Colemak, so you are probably right.

[Hak Foo]

Myself, I consider the reverse-L enter key a slight improvement on the normal 101-key enter key. What I hate on most of the keyboards that have it is that they take the |\ key, and put it between += and Backspace. When a keyboard instead puts |\ on the far side of the right shift key, I'm happy - because what I don't like is not being able to reach the Backspace key, not a bigger Enter key.

Well put.

I recall being very pleased back in 1995, when the gift of a Pentium-75 PC featured a keyboard (of no other note) with such a layout.

The problem with putting it in the "right" place, though, is that there's no good way to keep the {[ key next to the }] key, unless you make massive changes to the layout.

Why not put |\ it where Right Windows is on most 104s?  You could even gimmick it that way via a scripting tool for test.

[quadibloc]

Why not put |\ it where Right Windows is on most 104s?  You could even gimmick it that way via a scripting tool for test.

I think that I might not have been clear at this point. I was referring to an arrangement like:



where I use the rotated-L Enter from the International keyboard. The problem is, now, that besides the traditional 44-key main typing area (!1 to += top row, Q to one key after P on the second row, A to "' on the third row, Z to ?/ on the fourth row) where all the keys are defined except the one to the right of P, we no longer have spaces for two keys next to each other horizontally.

So no matter which available locations I use for {[ and }], I can't put {[ immediately to the left of }], whcih is the most desirable relationship between them.

But if I am going to add keys to the keyboard, then I could put {[ where left Windows is, and }] where Windows Menu is.

[wellington1869]

I really think GH's bringing vendor forums on board is a huge "experiment" in the internet universe. Much more so than we're acknowledging. The results are still out.

At best its rare to have vendor forums right next to critical review forums like this. (Or to then expect that in the long run vendors will get along with each other? Not step on each other's toes? Reviewers and vendors wont step on each others toes? Fanboys wont clash?)

Its a HUGE experiment and I dont know that anything like this has ever been done on the internet.  I think its that big. On most other sites, vendor forums are on vendor's own sites. Reviewer forums are on enthusiasts sites. (Where that law has been treaded upon (Amazon), there is already controversy about the objectivity of the reviews there. About attempts by vendors to infiltrate the conversations there (and Amazon peddling that influence.)

But even thats nothing like whats going on at GH.  I think we sometimes dont realize how unique this set up is at GH, after  vendor forums became a part of the same forum.

Up until that point we were a perfectly normal enthusiasts board.

Vendors came on in a unique experiment where people (myself included) initially thought maybe it would be mutually beneficial if vendors could respond more quickly to our needs and concerns and questions. I thought they would mainly serve us; I forgot they can also influence us. And clash with each other too.

How soon before another seller of blue cherry boards joins, and both sellers interject in a blue cherry advice thread? Why isnt that potentially a four-way clash in the making?  Do we expect any agreement between the four groups? (in this example, 2 vendors, the potential customer, and other reviewers with their own experiences and opinions). Doubt it.

Clash-city. Potentially fatally polarizing.  It used to be an information- and experience-sharing site.  It cant afford to be that anymore when dollars are on the line.  With vendors on board, dollars are on the line. That means some views and experiences need to be buried.

[msiegel]

perfect set up for a sociology experiment, isn't it?

i trust our discerning and curious natures, that we'll continue to pick nits, pick brains, and snap pics. that's what i'm here for

[sixty]

Double dare Metadot to sign up for a Vendor forum too.

[wellington1869]

perfect set up for a sociology experiment, isn't it?

yea, so was jonestown xD

i trust our discerning and curious natures, that we'll continue to pick nits, pick brains, and snap pics. that's what i'm here for

you're more trusting than me bro.

I think Ripster's rule is still the best one: vendors dont 'sell' in the keyb section, and geekhackers dont [strike]trash[/strike] 'review' keyboards in the vendor section.

Thats basically the rule that was violated by a vendor (not mentioning countervailing information is disingenuous and self-serving any way you look at it: its 'selling') in the most recent scuffle.

Though to be fair most vendors have respected that separation quite well. Problem is without policing, this boundary will continue to be broken by over-enthusiastic vendors. It only takes one to break the peace. (As we saw).

So I'm pretty pessimistic of the current setup at GH. I think we have a structural problem now and clashes (vendor-vendor, reviewer-vendor, fanboy-fanboy) will only rise.  The presence of vendors means more overall polarization, I think inevitably.

Double dare Metadot to sign up for a Vendor forum too.

Rofl. Though for my part I'd welcome another blue cherry seller, because a big part of our problem right now is the monopoly held by the one vendor here. Either we should have none, or should have many. Monopolies are the worst possible situation.
And besides, I want to see two blue cherry vendors go at it.

[ch_123]

Welly, I'll agree with you when people get banned for criticizing vendors. Till then, the opinions of vendors are as valid as that of anyone else until proven otherwise. People should be free to make up their minds given all the information available from different parties.

Even if you stopped vendors posting there's no guarantee that all information will be correct and valid. On the flipside, not all end-user criticism is valid, and vendors should be allowed to throw their lot in to answer unfair accusations. I think people are clever enough to see obvious shills when they appear.

[Hak Foo]

It's a matter of how the vendors handle things.

In a way, it really tends to reveal their character.  Majestouch and MsKeyboard are clearly keyboard enthusiasts as well as keyboard sellers.  

I think a lot of our contempt for Metadot is that they seem to be approaching it from a 'design by marketing' perspective-- with failings that real enthusiasts would identify quickly (the key-transposition problem, the easy-smudge finish).

[ehird]

I'm probably going to be controversial here, especially being a lil' newbie.

The way to solve the vendor problem is to STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!

This is just fuelling the fire and making a mountain out of a molehill.

Everyone should be welcome here. All keyboard enthusiasts (the vendors we have here are enthusiasts). It's easy to tell whether someone is a vendor (although possibly it should be courtesy for the vendors to make this more prominent, e.g. stating it directly in their signature), and so any reasonable person can take their opinions on their own products with a grain of salt. No vendor can bury criticism, because they have a voice exactly equal to everyone else's here. If you want to point something out, you're absolutely welcome to.

The exception is in the vendor's forum, where the vendors answer questions on their own products. But even then, it isn't really an exception - if it's a point of some contention, everyone can express their opinion, including the vendor. It all works out in the end.

It's not a big deal. It's not an earth-shattering experiment.

And it's not a problem. But it can be, if we make it one.

So let's not.

[timw4mail]

I'm probably going to be controversial here, especially being a lil' newbie.

The way to solve the vendor problem is to STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!

This is just fuelling the fire and making a mountain out of a molehill.

Everyone should be welcome here. All keyboard enthusiasts (the vendors we have here are enthusiasts). It's easy to tell whether someone is a vendor (although possibly it should be courtesy for the vendors to make this more prominent, e.g. stating it directly in their signature), and so any reasonable person can take their opinions on their own products with a grain of salt. No vendor can bury criticism, because they have a voice exactly equal to everyone else's here. If you want to point something out, you're absolutely welcome to.

The exception is in the vendor's forum, where the vendors answer questions on their own products. But even then, it isn't really an exception - if it's a point of some contention, everyone can express their opinion, including the vendor. It all works out in the end.

It's not a big deal. It's not an earth-shattering experiment.

And it's not a problem. But it can be, if we make it one.

So let's not.

Finally. Someone I agree with.

[AndrewZorn]

coo

coooo