Author Topic: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.  (Read 6790 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 08:46:52 »
I've got a Model M on my desk and an SSK on order. I'm interested in doing a bolt mod on both of them, but in particular I'd like to try and do it the way Phosphorglow does, with self-threading screws right into the plastic rather than thru-bolts and nuts. I understand that precision is a little more important this way because the holes don't have as much play. I can handle that, as I have access to a fully-equipped machine shop.

My main question is, has anyone else tried this? What size screws should I use? Any other gotcha's I should be concerned about? Thanks.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline intelli78

  • Posts: 1503
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 08:50:32 »
What I don't like about these "screw mods" is that they do NOT really afford you the luxury of opening the keyboard any time you want, because every time you take it apart it strips the plastic a little more. Not good! Can be a serious problem if you're troubleshooting and have to take it apart multiple times.
Please consider carefully before you decide to comment, for Jesus.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8856
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:04:35 »
What I don't like about these "screw mods" is that they do NOT really afford you the luxury of opening the keyboard any time you want, because every time you take it apart it strips the plastic a little more. Not good! Can be a serious problem if you're troubleshooting and have to take it apart multiple times.
Can't "open" it at all if it has the plastic rivets intact. What would be your proposed alternative?
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:10:29 »
What I don't like about these "screw mods" is that they do NOT really afford you the luxury of opening the keyboard any time you want, because every time you take it apart it strips the plastic a little more. Not good! Can be a serious problem if you're troubleshooting and have to take it apart multiple times.

What I don't like about these "screw mods" is that they do NOT really afford you the luxury of opening the keyboard any time you want, because every time you take it apart it strips the plastic a little more. Not good! Can be a serious problem if you're troubleshooting and have to take it apart multiple times.
Can't "open" it at all if it has the plastic rivets intact. What would be your proposed alternative?


Screw mods will damage the plastic over time but straight bolts held down by the nut would be safer for the plastic. I definitely prefer the bolts.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 5630
  • Location: 34.04 N 84.47 W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:11:11 »
I don't like it because I enjoy cleaning every layer.

As long as the drill bit is about 1/16" or 1.5mm and you bore out the center of the rivet post, leaving a cylindrical plastic tube, there is very little chance that plastic shavings will get into the membranes.

What the researchers found is that after controlling for gender, age, education level, and ideology, NFC [Need for Chaos] was strongly correlated with a willingness to spread hostile rumors online. Younger, less educated men were more likely to have a strong NFC, as were people who were lonely and perceived themselves as lacking social status. NFC is associated with support for Donald Trump, which makes sense. Both Trump and to a lesser, and in a qualitatively different way, Sanders offered the 2016 electorate — including all the susceptible, alienated and disenchanted folks who comprise it — a radical departure from the norm, giving voice to sentiments that had probably been bubbling in their followers’ heads for quite a long time.

The responses to three of the statements in particular were “staggering,” the paper says: 24 percent agreed that society should be burned to the ground; 40 percent concurred with the thought that “When it comes to our political and social institutions, I cannot help thinking ‘just let them all burn’ ”; and 40 percent also agreed that “we cannot fix the problems in our social institutions, we need to tear them down and start over.”

A “Need for Chaos” and the Sharing of Hostile Political Rumors in Advanced Democracies - Petersen - Osmundsen - Arceneaux 2019

Offline intelli78

  • Posts: 1503
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:11:28 »
Was my understanding that traditional bolt mods use bolts+nuts, with the (tightened) nuts being the mechanism holding everything together, instead of screws in plastic. Is that not the case? I have never had a bolt modded M, only screw modded.
Please consider carefully before you decide to comment, for Jesus.

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:43:20 »
Was my understanding that traditional bolt mods use bolts+nuts, with the (tightened) nuts being the mechanism holding everything together, instead of screws in plastic. Is that not the case? I have never had a bolt modded M, only screw modded.
That is correct. That's why it's called a bolt mod and not a screw mod. Phosphorglow is big on the screws threaded into plastic, and flathead screws instead of pan/cheese heads, so they don't stick out as much.

Your point about stripping threads over time makes sense. But if that did happen you could use Helicoil inserts to repair those spots, so the board would not be ruined.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:25:30 by njbair »

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:32:52 »
There are several misconceptions present in the replies to the OP.

1. So-called "screw modding" does not damage the plastic over time if it's done correctly. Even when doing a "nut and bolt" mod, many have strongly suggested driving the screws into the plastic from the front, using pilot holes of the correct size to allow the screws to cut their own threads in the plastic. In a "screw mod" the screws are driven into pilot holes in the plastic from the back, but then don't need nuts to hold them in place. No difference between the two approaches as far as "damage to the plastic is concerned. With the great redundancy of screws, there is very little stress on any individual screw and thus no significant pullout force being applied to stress the plastic threads.

2. There is no need to separate the barrel frame from the steel plate to allow cleaning the membrane layers if there has been no prior liquid spills into the keyboard that have seeped into the membrane layers. I've done nearly 60 "screw mods" (although I call them "bolt mods" for reasons spelled out in an earlier thread) and opened up enough of them (full separation) during the process to determine that contamination of the silver contact pads is nearly impossible unless liquid has seeped in. Having learned that, I no longer separate the layers unless there is a good reason to do so, such as a broken or stuck pivot plate or a liquid spill. The membrane layers are well-sealed against particulate debris due to the self-shielding nature of the construction although liquids can seep in, mostly around the edges of the assembly. Lastly, I've never seen any significant amount of tarnish on the contacts or elsewhere inside the layers that would require separation in order to remove it.

3. IMO straight-walled (i.e., "machine") screws are better than tapered (self-threading) screws, because machine screws fully engage the plastic threads all the way through whereas tapered screws don't because of their taper. The most important zone for thread engagement is not in the remnants of the rivet shanks ("tenons") but rather in the 0.110" thick cross section of plastic between the bottom of the tenons and the top surface of the barrel frame. This is the zone where tapered screws generally don't engage the plastic threads well.

4. Low-profile button head or pan head is better than flat-head IMO because they don't require washers to hide the sharp-edged (and ugly IMO) heads of flat-head screws. And with this method, only one size and type of screw is needed. I drill 0.070" diameter pilot holes and use 2-56 x 5/16 Torx-head screws because there is much less tendency for the driver bit to slip while driving them in or removing them later than would be encountered with Philips-head screws. Less slippage means less tendency to strip the heads, and less frustration and wasted time.

5. Fohat is correct in stating that there's little chance for bits of plastic to migrate into the membrane layers or pivot-plate wells if this is done correctly and carefully. I use a needle-nosed pair of tweezers to pluck out any mushroomed or loose portions of the tenons from the holes in the steel plate. The tenons are often not perfectly centered in these holes, but I always try to drill in the center of the tenons, regardless of whether the screws wind up looking a bit off-center with respect to the center of the holes.

6. So far, after doing it this way for over 2 years, I have not had a single complaint about the keyboards I've done that could be traced to the method I use. And not separating the layers does help preserve the original alignments and, ultimately, the sound and feel of the keystrokes.

7. The low-profile screws that I use do not interfere at all with the wire-bail stabilizers of vertical + and Enter keys in the numpad area of those early Model M's that have them. Be sure to inspect carefully for "tailings" -- bits of plastic that come out on top of the protruding screw threads, while driving them in -- and remove any that interfere with a stabilizer wire. I use a small X-acto knife with a narrow, pointed blade for this.

8. I replace broken and weak rivets first, leaving the intact ones in place and the assembly still clamped together. Then I remove and replace the remaining rivets about 6-8 at a time, spread out across the backplate, concentrating mostly on the middle rows at the beginning and then progressing to the outer rows. This keeps the assembly clamped together, minimizing the chance that plastic bits will get into places where they can cause trouble.

9. The "nutless" method means there are no nuts to accidentally loosen up and fall off. It is often recommended not to tighten nuts all the way if they are used. That means they are somewhat prone to loosening up further, perhaps if the keyboard experiences enough vibration in shipment or use. The "nutless" screws are gripped very snugly by the plastic threads and can be backed-off properly for optimum tightening torque without any fear of them loosening on their own. If nuts are used and Loctite'd to keep them secure, they would be extremely difficult to remove later if needed without stripping their heads in the attempt -- decidedly not good.

I think that pretty well covers my technique and choice of fasteners. I know some will disagree (some perhaps vehemently) but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it! It's earned me a sterling reputation and eBay feedback score, with many rave comments about my work and how I conduct business.
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 April 2015, 18:30:09 by SpaceGhost »

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:02:05 »
There are several misconceptions present in the replies to the OP.

1. So-called "screw modding" does not damage the plastic over time if it's done correctly. Even when doing a "nut and bolt" mod, many have strongly suggested driving the screws into the plastic from the front, using pilot holes of the correct size to allow the screws to cut their own threads in the plastic. In a "screw mod" the screws are driven into pilot holes in the plastic from the back, but then don't need nuts to hold them in place. No difference between the two approaches as far as "damage to the plastic is concerned. With the great redundancy of screws, there is very little stress on any individual screw and thus no significant pullout force being applied to stress the plastic threads.

2. There is no need to separate the barrel frame from the steel plate to allow cleaning the membrane layers if there has been no prior liquid spills into the keyboard that have seeped into the membrane layers. I've done nearly 60 "screw mods" (although I call them "bolt mods" for reasons spelled out in an earlier thread) and opened up enough of them (full separation) during the process to determine that contamination of the silver contact pads is nearly impossible unless liquid has seeped in. Having learned that, I no longer separate the layers unless there is a good reason to do so, such as a broken or stuck pivot plate or a liquid spill. The membrane layers are well-sealed against particulate debris due to the self-shielding nature of the construction although liquids can seep in, mostly around the edges of the assembly. Lastly, I've never seen any significant amount of tarnish on the contacts or elsewhere inside the layers that would require separation in order to remove it.

3. IMO straight-walled (i.e., "machine") screws are better than tapered (self-threading) screws, because machine screws fully engage the plastic threads all the way through whereas tapered screws don't because of their taper. The most important zone for thread engagement is not in the remnants of the rivet shanks ("tenons") but rather in the 0.110" thick cross section of plastic between the bottom of the tenons and the top surface of the barrel frame. This is the zone where tapered screws generally don't engage the plastic threads well.

4. Low-profile button head or pan head is better than flat-head IMO because they don't require washers to hide the sharp-edged (and ugly IMO) heads of flat-head screws. And with this method, only one size and type of screw is needed. I drill 0.070" diameter pilot holes and use 2-56 x 5/16 Torx-head screws because there is much less tendency for the driver bit to slip while driving them in or removing them later than would be encountered with Philips-head screws. Less slippage means less tendency to strip the heads, and less frustration and wasted time.

5. Fohat is correct in stating that there's little chance for bits of plastic to migrate into the membrane layers or pivot-plate wells if this is done correctly and carefully. I use a needle-nosed pair of tweezers to pluck out any mushroomed or loose portions of the tenons from the holes in the steel plate. The tenons are often not perfectly centered in these holes, but I always try to drill in the center of the tenons, regardless of whether the screws wind up looking a bit off-center with respect to the center of the holes.

6. So far, after doing it this way for over 2 years, I have not had a single complaint about the keyboards I've done that could be traced to the method I use. And not separating the layers does help preserve the original alignments and, ultimately, the sound and feel of the keystrokes.

7. The low-profile screws that I use do not interfere at all with the wire-bail stabilizers of vertical + and Enter keys in the numpad area of those early Model M's that have them.

8. I replace broken and weak rivets first, leaving the intact ones in place and the assembly still clamped together. Then I remove and replace the remaining rivets about 6-8 at a time, spread out across the backplate, concentrating mostly on the middle rows at the beginning and then progressing to the outer rows. This keeps the assembly clamped together, minimizing the chance that plastic bits will get into places where they can cause trouble.

9. The "nutless" method means there are no nuts to accidentally loosen up and fall off. It is often recommended not to tighten nuts all the way if they are used. That means they are somewhat prone to loosening up further, perhaps if the keyboard experiences enough vibration in shipment or use. The "nutless" screws are gripped very snugly by the plastic threads and can be backed-off properly for optimum tightening torque without any fear of them loosening on their own. If nuts are used and Loctite'd to keep them secure, they would be extremely difficult to remove later if needed without stripping their heads in the attempt -- decidedly not good.

I think that pretty well covers my technique and choice of fasteners. I know some will disagree (some perhaps vehemently) but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it! It's earned me a sterling reputation and eBay feedback score, with many rave comments about my work and how I conduct business.
Why would the screws even potentially interfere with the stabilizers if they screw in from the back? Is 5/16" longer than the board assembly is deep? I wouldn't want them to stick out because I'd like to add a colored sheet in there like Phosphorglow does.

And how close are the screw heads to the case near the bottom, where traditional bolt mods are known to not always fit?

Lastly, do you have any pics of a plate done your way? Is like to see them if so.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:15:36 »
Why would the screws even potentially interfere with the stabilizers if they screw in from the back? Is 5/16" longer than the board assembly is deep? I wouldn't want them to stick out because I'd like to add a colored sheet in there like Phosphorglow does.

And how close are the screw heads to the case near the bottom, where traditional bolt mods are known to not always fit?

Lastly, do you have any pics of a plate done your way? Is like to see them if so.

The screws don't interfere with stabilizers because they are the correct length to avoid doing so. They only protrude by a couple of threads and don't touch the stabilizers at all. There is no interference with the bottom cover because they are very low in profile, thus there is absolutely no warpage induced in the bottom cover -- the keyswitch assembly slips into place easily under the front-edge hold-down tabs of the bottom cover. I don't install screws in the bottom-most row because the step in the profile of the barrel frame prevents adequate thread engagement, and screws along the front edge are not required anyway -- the tabs clamp that edge quite nicely when the assembly is in place.

Here's a photo of the backplate from one of my completed mods:

95489-0

And a photo of the top of the assembly:

95491-1

P.S. The added screw in the upper right corner of the steel plate (visible in the second photo) prevents the steel plate from "guillotining" the molded positioning studs if the keyboard experiences severe G-force shock edgewise that could cause sudden and forceful shifting of the assembly, possibly chopping of one or both of the studs. This is a self-treading type and is driven into the convenient molded slot located just below the stud.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:20:15 by SpaceGhost »

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:27:04 »
One more note:
Screws driven into pilot holes that have cut their own threads in the plastic can be removed and reinstalled safely, without damaging the plastic threads, if great care is exercised in re-engaging the original plastic threads when reinstalling the screws.

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:29:45 »
Why would the screws even potentially interfere with the stabilizers if they screw in from the back? Is 5/16" longer than the board assembly is deep? I wouldn't want them to stick out because I'd like to add a colored sheet in there like Phosphorglow does.

And how close are the screw heads to the case near the bottom, where traditional bolt mods are known to not always fit?

Lastly, do you have any pics of a plate done your way? Is like to see them if so.

The screws don't interfere with stabilizers because they are the correct length to avoid doing so. They only protrude by a couple of threads and don't touch the stabilizers at all. There is no interference with the bottom cover because they are very low in profile, thus there is absolutely no warpage induced in the bottom cover -- the keyswitch assembly slips into place easily under the front-edge hold-down tabs of the bottom cover. I don't install screws in the bottom-most row because the step in the profile of the barrel frame prevents adequate thread engagement, and screws along the front edge are not required anyway -- the tabs clamp that edge quite nicely when the assembly is in place.

Here's a photo of the backplate from one of my completed mods:

(Attachment Link)

And a photo of the top of the assembly:

(Attachment Link)

P.S. The added screw in the upper right corner of the steel plate (visible in the second photo) prevents the steel plate from "guillotining" the molded positioning studs if the keyboard experiences severe G-force shock edgewise that could cause sudden and forceful shifting of the assembly, possibly chopping of one or both of the studs. This is a self-treading type and is driven into the convenient molded slot located just below the stud.

This is super helpful. Thanks!!!

I think I am going to end up fully disassembling the guts because my full-size Model M has a distinct "factory floor" odor that I'd like to get rid of so I need to wash it. I've also heard good things about replacing the original blanket with a newer Unicomp blanket. But I don't plan on separating or cleaning the plastic membranes--I think we've established that's unnecessary.

I'm probably also going to try switching out the LED color...we'll see.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:34:02 »
Just be very careful not to induce cracking in the barrel frame when separating it from the steel plate. Many aging barrel frames have become brittle with age and crack easily when separated.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:49:19 by SpaceGhost »

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:48:23 »
What about colored keycaps? I know I've seen these around, are people dyeing their own or does someone make and sell them?

BTW I know about the RGB modifier sets Unicomp sells. I'm wondering if there are any others.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 14:07:11 »
BTW, I have always thought the use of the term "bolt" to describe the tiny screws used in a so-called "bolt mod" or "screw mod" is a bit absurd. Here's why I think this:

Technically, if tapered screws are used (as in some "nutless bolt mods") the term "bolt" has no place at all, since the tapered screws are typically wood or plastic screws and cannot be referred to correctly as bolts. Bolts are straight-walled machine screws that can accept a nut if required in the application. Any so-called "bolt mod" that uses tapered screws should never be called a bolt mod because there are no bolts involved, only tapered screws. These should be called "screw mods".

The term "bolt" to me implies a large machine screw, not a tiny one. "Large" is of course a relative term, but as a general rule-of-thumb, what I mean by "large" is 1/4 inch or larger thread diameter. Machine screws much smaller in diameter than this, i.e. less than 0.100 inch or so thread diameter, are properly called "miniature precision machine screws" -- that's the term IIRC that McMaster Carr uses for these tiny screws. To call these itty-bitty screws "bolts" just because nuts can be installed onto them seems rather silly and overstated, an attempt to convey exaggerated thoughts of macho ruggedness and strength far beyond what their tiny dimensions otherwise imply.

Perhaps all mods involving replacement of the plastic rivets with threaded fasteners, regardless of whether there are nuts installed or not, should be called "screw mods" -- after all, the one thing in common among all of them is that some type of screw is used.

I've preferred to use the term "bolt mod" only because it is the more widely-recognized term, and because it sounds better than "screw mod" -- e.g. which sounds better: "bolted up" or "screwed up". Unfortunately, the word "screw" has a few alternate definitions that have undesirable connotations and which stick in our minds (at least subliminally) regardless of the context.

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 14:59:09 »
BTW, I have always thought the use of the term "bolt" to describe the tiny screws used in a so-called "bolt mod" or "screw mod" is a bit absurd. Here's why I think this:

Technically, if tapered screws are used (as in some "nutless bolt mods") the term "bolt" has no place at all, since the tapered screws are typically wood or plastic screws and cannot be referred to correctly as bolts. Bolts are straight-walled machine screws that can accept a nut if required in the application. Any so-called "bolt mod" that uses tapered screws should never be called a bolt mod because there are no bolts involved, only tapered screws. These should be called "screw mods".

The term "bolt" to me implies a large machine screw, not a tiny one. "Large" is of course a relative term, but as a general rule-of-thumb, what I mean by "large" is 1/4 inch or larger thread diameter. Machine screws much smaller in diameter than this, i.e. less than 0.100 inch or so thread diameter, are properly called "miniature precision machine screws" -- that's the term IIRC that McMaster Carr uses for these tiny screws. To call these itty-bitty screws "bolts" just because nuts can be installed onto them seems rather silly and overstated, an attempt to convey exaggerated thoughts of macho ruggedness and strength far beyond what their tiny dimensions otherwise imply.

Perhaps all mods involving replacement of the plastic rivets with threaded fasteners, regardless of whether there are nuts installed or not, should be called "screw mods" -- after all, the one thing in common among all of them is that some type of screw is used.

I've preferred to use the term "bolt mod" only because it is the more widely-recognized term, and because it sounds better than "screw mod" -- e.g. which sounds better: "bolted up" or "screwed up". Unfortunately, the word "screw" has a few alternate definitions that have undesirable connotations and which stick in our minds (at least subliminally) regardless of the context.

From Wikipedia:

Quote
The defining distinction, per Machinery's Handbook,[2] is in their intended purpose: Bolts are for the assembly of two unthreaded components, with the aid of a nut. Screws in contrast are used with components that have at least one containing its own thread.

Many screws and bolts can be either, depending on how they are used.

So if that's the case--and Machinery's Handbook is certainly as valid an authority on the subject as any--a bolt mod is a bolt mod if it uses nuts to hold things together. Otherwise it's a screw mod.

Although, I have to admit, I tend to delineate them in terms of size much like you do. And if it's a medium-sized fastener such as a 1/4-20 or an M6, I go by the head type. If it's got a hole for a driver bit of any kind, it's a screw. If it's hex-headed, it's a bolt. But I don't think I've ever called something a bolt unless I'm using a nut along with it.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 15:38:43 »
Deja vu all over again. Another time, another thread, another name...Sigh...

While Machinery's Handbook is a valuable reference, it is not the only and final word on the subject in the real world. Note that vehicle engines (and many other types of machinery) are assembled without nuts for the most part, rather using "bolts" (as they are called in various catalogs) driven into threaded holes in some part of the assembly. Engine bolts of various types are seldom if ever referred to as engine "screws".

Although much smaller than a vehicle engine, and despite not generating power of some sort, I think of the internal assembly of a Model M to be by analogy its engine, with the barrel frame (despite being plastic) as its "engine block" because it contains the moving parts. Thus when machine screws are used to assemble it following the removal of rivets, it can be legitimately called a "bolt mod" even though nuts are not used. In effect, the entire barrel frame becomes the common "nut" securing the screws because it has a threaded hole for each screw, albeit being all in one physical piece.

And as I said earlier, any so-called "bolt mod" that uses tapered screws should never be called a "bolt" mod because there are no bolts involved, only tapered screws. These should be called "screw mods".

I do see your point, njbair -- I just don't completely agree with it. To each their own, I guess...
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 15:50:32 by SpaceGhost »

Offline madhias

  • Posts: 1174
  • Location: Wien, Austria
  • BS TORPE
    • Madhias' Flickr
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 15:58:52 »
I wrote a short guide over DT a while ago, I would not call it a guide, but rather a field report! Sorry for the copypasta... Maybe it helps a little bit!

...

I want to share here my bolt / screw modding experience, since i failed, learned, succeeded somehow and maybe it could help someone a little bit. There are lots of tutorials and various methods in the world wide web, but as i think the best guide so far is the one from Phosphorglow (IBM Model M Reconditioning Process - Tear down, cleaning, rivet replacement.). What is simply different to most of the tutorials out there is the usage of mostly screws instead of nuts and bolts.

The goal to achieve with this method is this:

Instead of this:


When i did the nut and bolt mod of the second image, i thought it's great because everyone does it like that. What could be wrong? So i didn't finish this SSK, and thought i also do a second one this way, and another 101 key Model M too. It was so much fun, that i took all parts with me on the countryside and did the bolt modding in the summer sun. You can't imagine how much your partner will love you when doing such things. It makes you sexy!

When putting afterwards everything together one thing annoyed me really: the nuts and top of the bolts were lying now on the case, and the whole metal plate was a little bit higher than it should be. It would not be a problem for a cheap 101 you want to use, but i thought when using a SSK which is or was not cheap, it is not good. The case is the only part beside the metal plate, you can't replace (except to have a second SSK). So scratches and distortions on the case itself should be avoided.

Let's start!

After opening the case with a 5,5 mm tool, you will have to remove the existing rivets. Some of them pop off easily, some of them are not easy to remove. I only use a blade of a cutter.



If you want to preserve the label, which you should of course, the hair dryer of your partner works perfect. Here i have to wear some gloves, because it gets very hot. Not only the air, but also the metal plate too.

The label should go off, but it takes time and you have to be patient. In this example the label was already destroyed and rotted away a little bit.


I put it afterwards in a transparent film, and then on a sticker. If something is missing like in the picture above, i put a piece of paper with the similar color tone of the IBM sticker behind the original sticker to have it complete again.

It is very useful to use tapes to remove and store the springs, as seen in Phosphorglows guide.


Spring porn!

Only use a tape which has no aggressive glue. It is better to use a tape which is used for painting walls, and not to use a tape like this one in the image (which is used for taping packages i think). The springs are hard to get off this %$#^*@ tape.

When separating everything afterwards i try to remember the positions of the membranes somehow.

Remove the rest of the rivets. I use a cutter.

Before drilling the holes make some preparations with the soldering iron (as seen in Ripsters guide).

If you have a vertical drilling press it is much better, because when using screws instead of bolts it is more important to have holes which are in a right angle to the keycap frame. The result will be that the heads of the screw fit perfectly in the holes of the metal plate, and are not aslope. I don't have one, and use a normal drilling machine and trust in my accuracy.

After the drilling action you have to remove the rest of the remaining rivets, and clean up everything. I only use a cutter, because the plastic of the keycap frames is rather soft than hard and easy to remove.

The holes will be clean enough!

And that's almost everything! Put the membranes, plate, and everything else together, and screw. It is much easier than to handle with nuts, which are small, will be lost, or are not holding on the bolt on the first try. I tried both methods and would say that the screw mod is way faster. When you did a nut and bolt mod, and then do a screw mod, you will smile when screwing! Because it's fast, easy and straight forward.

The length of the screws i used is not bad as i think, the head could be better, a little bit more flat.

That's how it looks from the other side. You see the tip of the screw!


Tools & accessories

That is the screw size i use:

The middle row can be done with nut and bolts, and for drilling the holes i use 1,5 mm drill bits.

It is very handy to have something to put the keycap frame and metal plate in between. I used wood, and have two sizes: one for 101 keys, and one for SSK size. It is simple, but enough.
... ...

Offline RoastPotatoes

  • * Maker
  • Posts: 225
  • Location: United Kingdom
    • RoastPotatoes Keyboard Blog
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 09:23:21 »

4. Low-profile button head or pan head is better than flat-head IMO because they don't require washers to hide the sharp-edged (and ugly IMO) heads of flat-head screws. And with this method, only one size and type of screw is needed. I drill 0.070" diameter pilot holes and use 2-56 x 5/16 Torx-head screws because there is much less tendency for the driver bit to slip while driving them in or removing them later than would be encountered with Philips-head screws. Less slippage means less tendency to strip the heads, and less frustration and wasted time.


I was just wondering about the screw sizes as I have been having trouble finding the correct sizes you mentioned in the uk. Are these the correct sort. I know they are not Torx-head but they are proving harder and more expensive to find. The diamater is what I am having trouble with.  And would a 1.5mm drill bit be more appropriote?

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 5630
  • Location: 34.04 N 84.47 W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 13:19:25 »
I use M2 rather than M2.5 and a 1/16" drill bit (pretty much equal to a 1.5mm).

The M2.5 might prove a bit fat, and will surely be hard to start in a 1.5mm hole.
What the researchers found is that after controlling for gender, age, education level, and ideology, NFC [Need for Chaos] was strongly correlated with a willingness to spread hostile rumors online. Younger, less educated men were more likely to have a strong NFC, as were people who were lonely and perceived themselves as lacking social status. NFC is associated with support for Donald Trump, which makes sense. Both Trump and to a lesser, and in a qualitatively different way, Sanders offered the 2016 electorate — including all the susceptible, alienated and disenchanted folks who comprise it — a radical departure from the norm, giving voice to sentiments that had probably been bubbling in their followers’ heads for quite a long time.

The responses to three of the statements in particular were “staggering,” the paper says: 24 percent agreed that society should be burned to the ground; 40 percent concurred with the thought that “When it comes to our political and social institutions, I cannot help thinking ‘just let them all burn’ ”; and 40 percent also agreed that “we cannot fix the problems in our social institutions, we need to tear them down and start over.”

A “Need for Chaos” and the Sharing of Hostile Political Rumors in Advanced Democracies - Petersen - Osmundsen - Arceneaux 2019

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 16:24:46 »

4. Low-profile button head or pan head is better than flat-head IMO because they don't require washers to hide the sharp-edged (and ugly IMO) heads of flat-head screws. And with this method, only one size and type of screw is needed. I drill 0.070" diameter pilot holes and use 2-56 x 5/16 Torx-head screws because there is much less tendency for the driver bit to slip while driving them in or removing them later than would be encountered with Philips-head screws. Less slippage means less tendency to strip the heads, and less frustration and wasted time.


I was just wondering about the screw sizes as I have been having trouble finding the correct sizes you mentioned in the uk. Are these the correct sort. I know they are not Torx-head but they are proving harder and more expensive to find. The diamater is what I am having trouble with.  And would a 1.5mm drill bit be more appropriote?

The screws you indicated are metric, the ones I use are not; 2-56 screws are slightly smaller in diameter than M2.5, and are slightly larger in diameter than M2.

I've found that the screw type and size I mentioned -- 2-56 x 5/16" with low-profile Torx head -- are ideal for "screw" modding. As I also mentioned, a 0.070" diameter pilot hole is also ideal for the screws to cut perfect threads that are also quite snug, allowing for precise torque adjustments that will never slip out of adjustment. I buy the screws from McMaster-Carr here in the US: http://www.mcmaster.com/#90910a683/=wlgk5q

I use reduced-length drill bits (NUMBER 50 SCREW MACHINE DRILL-NAS TYPE C, part number 102958) that I buy here: http://www.kodiakcuttingtools.com/
Their shorter length minimizes bit-wandering while drilling.

If either of these vendors will not ship to UK, contact me via PM and I'll proxy for you.
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 April 2015, 18:22:03 by SpaceGhost »

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 11:41:23 »
What's the story with using tape to pull up the rows of springs? Are the springs supposed to remain in a certain order or is the tape just to make it easier to put them all back in quickly?

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Location: CT, USA
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 11:42:59 »
What's the story with using tape to pull up the rows of springs?

the tape just to make it easier to put them all back in quickly?

Watch the video that phosphorglow posted. But you answered your own question :)
Please check out TactileZine.com!

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 11:45:21 »
What's the story with using tape to pull up the rows of springs?

the tape just to make it easier to put them all back in quickly?

Watch the video that phosphorglow posted. But you answered your own question :)

I just really wanted to confirm that there wasn't some kind of special order that they need to go back in. See, I sort of absentmindedly dumped them all out.

Anyhow, I'm going to have to pick at this mod over the next 2 weeks or so. So it's probably just as well that I don't have long strips of springs on tape that I have to store somewhere in the meantime. The pile fits nicely in a baggie.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline madhias

  • Posts: 1174
  • Location: Wien, Austria
  • BS TORPE
    • Madhias' Flickr
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 13:59:12 »
What's the story with using tape to pull up the rows of springs?

the tape just to make it easier to put them all back in quickly?

Watch the video that phosphorglow posted. But you answered your own question :)

I just really wanted to confirm that there wasn't some kind of special order that they need to go back in. See, I sort of absentmindedly dumped them all out.

Anyhow, I'm going to have to pick at this mod over the next 2 weeks or so. So it's probably just as well that I don't have long strips of springs on tape that I have to store somewhere in the meantime. The pile fits nicely in a baggie.

The springs do not need to go back in a special order - you can even mix them up - for example put most used key springs on the f-row or mods. The tape is mainly there to A) make everything faster and B) not too loose anything. It is also handy if you are doing everything not on the same day and need to store the springs somewhere, much easier on a tape than in a box with connected springs.

I carried everything in banana boxes around :) Sometimes I had no time to finish everything in time, so it then took a week or two to continue with work.

... ...

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 20:27:38 »
So I sourced some #2-56 x 5/16" Torx drive stainless steel button head machine screws from a local vendor for a bit cheaper than McMaster Carr, but longer lead time. So while I wait for those I've torn down my SSK and prepped some stuff. I've trimmed the rivet posts, primed and painted the plate, ordered a replacement blanket and replica keycaps from Unicomp, and thoroughly cleaned the case parts.

Next week I'll pay a visit to the machine shop where I used to work and borrow some drill press time to make my through holes in the barrel plate. I might also add a colored sheet over top of the barrel plate like Phosphorglow does. We'll see.

Thanks everyone for your advice so far!

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline SpaceGhost

  • Posts: 90
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 23:37:06 »
So I sourced some #2-56 x 5/16" Torx drive stainless steel button head machine screws from a local vendor for a bit cheaper than McMaster Carr, but longer lead time. So while I wait for those I've torn down my SSK and prepped some stuff. I've trimmed the rivet posts, primed and painted the plate, ordered a replacement blanket and replica keycaps from Unicomp, and thoroughly cleaned the case parts.

Next week I'll pay a visit to the machine shop where I used to work and borrow some drill press time to make my through holes in the barrel plate. I might also add a colored sheet over top of the barrel plate like Phosphorglow does. We'll see.

Thanks everyone for your advice so far!

Sounds like you're on the right track here.

When you are installing the screws, I would recommend starting from the middle rows first and then working your way out to the top and bottom rows. I believe this will put the least stress on the barrel frame -- you need to be very careful not to induce horizontal cracking along the bend lines between the rows of spring barrels. Avoid flexing the barrel frame as much as possible while handling it; the plastic is old and probably brittle, and may crack easily if stressed -- the plastic is very thin along the molded bend lines.

Also, when driving in the screws, I would suggest driving them in just until you feel an abrupt increase in resistance, no further. This should be the optimum tightening torque -- with the assembly lightly clamped together -- and will help prevent warping due to excessive and uneven clamping forces.

Let us know how it all turns out, and good luck!

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 18:22:39 »
Is there any recommended fix for deep scratches? Like some kind of compound to fill them in? I've got one bad ding on the top of my SSK case that I'd like to hide as best I can.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 5630
  • Location: 34.04 N 84.47 W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 19:04:19 »
Is there any recommended fix for deep scratches? Like some kind of compound to fill them in? I've got one bad ding on the top of my SSK case that I'd like to hide as best I can.

Multiple people have made a slurry out of beige case shavings and acetone, but it has never worked for me.
What the researchers found is that after controlling for gender, age, education level, and ideology, NFC [Need for Chaos] was strongly correlated with a willingness to spread hostile rumors online. Younger, less educated men were more likely to have a strong NFC, as were people who were lonely and perceived themselves as lacking social status. NFC is associated with support for Donald Trump, which makes sense. Both Trump and to a lesser, and in a qualitatively different way, Sanders offered the 2016 electorate — including all the susceptible, alienated and disenchanted folks who comprise it — a radical departure from the norm, giving voice to sentiments that had probably been bubbling in their followers’ heads for quite a long time.

The responses to three of the statements in particular were “staggering,” the paper says: 24 percent agreed that society should be burned to the ground; 40 percent concurred with the thought that “When it comes to our political and social institutions, I cannot help thinking ‘just let them all burn’ ”; and 40 percent also agreed that “we cannot fix the problems in our social institutions, we need to tear them down and start over.”

A “Need for Chaos” and the Sharing of Hostile Political Rumors in Advanced Democracies - Petersen - Osmundsen - Arceneaux 2019

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 19:08:01 »
Is there any recommended fix for deep scratches? Like some kind of compound to fill them in? I've got one bad ding on the top of my SSK case that I'd like to hide as best I can.

Multiple people have made a slurry out of beige case shavings and acetone, but it has never worked for me.
The acetone is not a bad idea, though. I bet I could soften the mushroomed material with some acetone and push it back into the ding where it belongs. Rather than file it off.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 5630
  • Location: 34.04 N 84.47 W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 19:25:03 »
The acetone is not a bad idea, though. I bet I could soften the mushroomed material with some acetone and push it back into the ding where it belongs. Rather than file it off.

An SSK case is precious. I would tidy it up as well as I could and just live with it.
What the researchers found is that after controlling for gender, age, education level, and ideology, NFC [Need for Chaos] was strongly correlated with a willingness to spread hostile rumors online. Younger, less educated men were more likely to have a strong NFC, as were people who were lonely and perceived themselves as lacking social status. NFC is associated with support for Donald Trump, which makes sense. Both Trump and to a lesser, and in a qualitatively different way, Sanders offered the 2016 electorate — including all the susceptible, alienated and disenchanted folks who comprise it — a radical departure from the norm, giving voice to sentiments that had probably been bubbling in their followers’ heads for quite a long time.

The responses to three of the statements in particular were “staggering,” the paper says: 24 percent agreed that society should be burned to the ground; 40 percent concurred with the thought that “When it comes to our political and social institutions, I cannot help thinking ‘just let them all burn’ ”; and 40 percent also agreed that “we cannot fix the problems in our social institutions, we need to tear them down and start over.”

A “Need for Chaos” and the Sharing of Hostile Political Rumors in Advanced Democracies - Petersen - Osmundsen - Arceneaux 2019

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 19:30:17 »
The acetone is not a bad idea, though. I bet I could soften the mushroomed material with some acetone and push it back into the ding where it belongs. Rather than file it off.

An SSK case is precious. I would tidy it up as well as I could and just live with it.
Well there's that. Don't wanna get too ambitious and end up making things worse.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline wcass

  • Posts: 504
  • Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 21:24:09 »
What about colored keycaps? I know I've seen these around, are people dyeing their own or does someone make and sell them?

BTW I know about the RGB modifier sets Unicomp sells. I'm wondering if there are any others.
Dyed caps are great. The caps in my signature were done with RIT dye back in 2011 and still look the same. But you want to use iDye Polly now. RIT changed their dye formulations a few years back and they don't work on PBT anymore.


Get a cheap stainless steel "pasta pot" and do a full set at a time (so that color is consistent). Fill the pot half way with water, add the dye (and included additive), and heat on the stove top to just under boiling . Dump the caps into the strainer and lower into the bath. "Stir" the bath by slowly raising and lowering the strainer. Lift a cap all the way out of the bath every now and again to check progress. The color only penetrates the plastic a few microns, but it is surprisingly durable.   


Almost forgot - white caps work best for this. It has to do with the "you can add color - you can't take it away" nature of dying. I did my blood red set with a classic pebble and pearl set, so my modifiers are a duller, darker red; kind of arterial red vs venous red.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 April 2015, 21:31:13 by wcass »

Offline njbair

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 12 April 2015, 13:50:06 »
What about colored keycaps? I know I've seen these around, are people dyeing their own or does someone make and sell them?

BTW I know about the RGB modifier sets Unicomp sells. I'm wondering if there are any others.
Dyed caps are great. The caps in my signature were done with RIT dye back in 2011 and still look the same. But you want to use iDye Polly now. RIT changed their dye formulations a few years back and they don't work on PBT anymore.


Get a cheap stainless steel "pasta pot" and do a full set at a time (so that color is consistent). Fill the pot half way with water, add the dye (and included additive), and heat on the stove top to just under boiling . Dump the caps into the strainer and lower into the bath. "Stir" the bath by slowly raising and lowering the strainer. Lift a cap all the way out of the bath every now and again to check progress. The color only penetrates the plastic a few microns, but it is surprisingly durable.   


Almost forgot - white caps work best for this. It has to do with the "you can add color - you can't take it away" nature of dying. I did my blood red set with a classic pebble and pearl set, so my modifiers are a duller, darker red; kind of arterial red vs venous red.
This is really cool. I might try this on some of my spares and use them as accent keys or something. Worst case, I mess it up and have to scrap them. Thanks for the info. I've read a little here and there about dyeing caps but it's good to hear directly from someone with experience.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 5630
  • Location: 34.04 N 84.47 W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M "nutless" bolt modding.
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 12 April 2015, 15:39:53 »
I might try this on some of my spares and use them as accent keys or something.

Reply #14 in this thread is very helpful.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35444.msg658453#msg658453
What the researchers found is that after controlling for gender, age, education level, and ideology, NFC [Need for Chaos] was strongly correlated with a willingness to spread hostile rumors online. Younger, less educated men were more likely to have a strong NFC, as were people who were lonely and perceived themselves as lacking social status. NFC is associated with support for Donald Trump, which makes sense. Both Trump and to a lesser, and in a qualitatively different way, Sanders offered the 2016 electorate — including all the susceptible, alienated and disenchanted folks who comprise it — a radical departure from the norm, giving voice to sentiments that had probably been bubbling in their followers’ heads for quite a long time.

The responses to three of the statements in particular were “staggering,” the paper says: 24 percent agreed that society should be burned to the ground; 40 percent concurred with the thought that “When it comes to our political and social institutions, I cannot help thinking ‘just let them all burn’ ”; and 40 percent also agreed that “we cannot fix the problems in our social institutions, we need to tear them down and start over.”

A “Need for Chaos” and the Sharing of Hostile Political Rumors in Advanced Democracies - Petersen - Osmundsen - Arceneaux 2019