G80-11900 coming in tomorrow!

[erricrice]

Luckily the seller on ebay was just about 100 miles south of where I live, so standard UPS ground became next day air!  
I decided to start the discussion tonight rather than waiting.

What are your guys' opinions on the 'board?
huha, I already know you love it(thanks btw, you made it possible for me to justify another keyboard =), but has anyone else used this 'board?
Does anyone out there like cherry blacks?
Madness ensue.

[Rajagra]

Overall, they are great. It's only the diabolical placing of Home/End/Pg Up/Pg Dn that messes them up.

[F2a]

Black Cherrys are the best for gaming hands down. I used to be a professional gamer and I knew/know a ton of them. Trust me on that. However for typing, it's fine and it'll work but you'll get fatigue faster. I've used blacks for maybe 4 or 5 years now. I just got a Blue Cherry board and I've been switching between the two spontaneously for a few weeks now and when I hit the black cherries I really love the feel probably because I'm so used to it but DAMN they feel so hard to push now. I can't see myself typing on blacks anymore.

[Hak Foo]

The worst mechanical feel I had was on the Cherry G81 I bought from the local scrapyard for its cardreader aspects.  It was like the opposite of a normal curve-- no break just harder the further you pressed.

In comparison, straight linear seems nice.

[huha]

It's not that I love the G80-11900, I just think it's a decent keyboard. At MSRP, it's way overpriced, but I got mine NIB for 35 Euros, so that's fine.
From my very limited experience so far, Cherry switches are highly dependant on keycap and case design. I might have to test this further, but that's the only reason I can think of explaining my largely differing tastes for different keyboards using identical switches.
I've got a G80-3000 with old-style case and blacks, and it feels like crap. The keycaps are great as always, but the key feel is horrible at best.
I've also got a G80-1000HAD with even-older-style case and blacks (and dual-shot keys to boot), and while I'd really like to like it, it doesn't feel that much better.
Then, I've got a G80-11900 with blacks. Keycaps are identical to those found on the G80-3000, but key feel is really nice. You can actually work with this one and have fun doing so. I think it's the relatively rigid and screwed case, where nothing wiggles around that much.


The G80-11900 is one of the select few boards I manage to type on without bottoming out with very little training. Linear switches aren't the most suitable ones for this endeavor, but since they're so hard to press and will happily spring back, this can be done surprisingly well.
The G80-11900, while it's not my favourite board, comes quite close. The touchpad is just lovely. It feels decent, and the switches are acceptable as soon as you swap the spacebar for another one you don't need. I don't game much, so I can't comment on that, but it is okay for coding--if you're a heavy typer, that is.

-huha

[lowpoly]

It was like the opposite of a normal curve-- no break just harder the further you pressed.

'Linear' just means that there is a linear way/force dependency. If you compress a spring it will need more force the farther you go.

In comparison, straight linear seems nice.

A linear switch always has a straight force graph. What you mean is light vs. heavy.

[erricrice]

Well I will definitely be reviewing the sucker once I get it.  I'll put in as much as I can about case design and keycap-ness as that seems to be the big difference with this 'board when compared to others.

[alpslover]

Black Cherrys are the best for gaming hands down.

why are they the best for gaming?

[F2a]

They are the best because they are linear. Constant pressure the whole way down. Also no noise which can matter.

[Rajagra]

They are the best because they are linear. Constant pressure the whole way down.

I don't think they are quite that linear.

(You should probably stop reading here.)

Linear means force increases proportionally to the distance travelled:
F=I+Ad  where I=pre-tension of the spring, A=constant, d=distance travelled.

Constant pressure the whole way down would be the special case where A=0, so F=I, but that isn't possible using a conventional springy key mechanism.

The best you can hope for (if you like that feel) is a switch where initial force I is high and rate of increase A is low. Cherry blacks fit that description, but they aren't constant all the way down.:nerd:

[huha]

Constant pressure the whole way down would be the special case where A=0, so F=I, but that isn't possible using a conventional springy key mechanism.

The best you can hope for (if you like that feel) is a switch where initial force I is high and rate of increase A is low. Cherry blacks fit that description, but they aren't constant all the way down.:nerd:

Cherry switches have a sloped portion to activate the switching mechanism. This slope is linear on linear switches, so the tactile curve should be (approximately) linear.

-huha

[timw4mail]

Isn't the tactile curve more parabolic than linear for blacks?

[alpslover]

They are the best because they are linear. Constant pressure the whole way down.

one of the advantages cited for tactile switches is that you can feel when they actuate (ostensibly so that you can avoid bottoming out).  wouldn't this still hold true for gaming, as well as typing?  but even if this tactility is not an advantage for gaming, is it a disadvantage?

what i'm trying to get at is, in what way is pressing keys while playing games so different than pressing keys while typing?

you mentioned that you used to be a pro gamer.  if someone were to give you a keyboard with blue cherries for you to game on, and you gave yourself time to get used to that keyboard, would you actually end up playing significantly worse than on a keyboard with black cherries?

Also no noise which can matter.

i suppose if you don't want to wake people up at night.  but in that respect, gaming is no different than typing.  if anything, keyboard noise from gaming makes less of a racket than from typing.

[erricrice]

Oh you guys, you're always fighting!  Lol

Anyways, so Cherry MX Black switches have a linear force curve which means that it requires constantly increasing pressure from 40g to 80g.  Looks like this:



The force is constantly increasing.  This one is straight up.
Tim, you might have been thinking of Cherry MY Swithces, which do have an almost parabolic curve more than a linear one.  MY switches do not stop at 80g, they just keep on goin which makes them feel VERY stiff.





Cherry Blacks are considered better for gaming by some because they are more difficult to accidentally hit a key since they have a pretty high actuation point(compared to blues and browns which are 45-50g, Blacks are 60g)  You can rest your fingers on the keys pretty heavily without worrying about pushing the key down.

[JBert]

what i'm trying to get at is, in what way is pressing keys while playing games so different than pressing keys while typing?

During typing, you don't need to press the same key that often. On the other hand, gaming might need you to press the same key in rapid succession to do some movement, e.g. the "dodge move" in UT. On most keyboards, you only need to slightly lift your finger and mash it down again.
Buckling springs, for example, have hysteresis, meaning you need to let the key go up for about 1/2 of the way before you can push it down again and register as a second keypress. This is due to the spring - as long as it is still in the buckled state, it can't release the switch contact. I think Cherry switches don't suffer from this problem, except for the blue's internal "click" slider. Still, the contact can be triggered easier.

Another issue is stiffness. Most shooters require you to hold the "move forward" key for long periods of time, so you want a keyboard which doesn't have too much up-force or your finger will get tired. Compare this to typing where the up-force is not a problem because most keys are only pressed for a short period of time. In fact, the up-force may even be seen as a feature.

[ironcoder]

one of the advantages cited for tactile switches is that you can feel when they actuate (ostensibly so that you can avoid bottoming out).  

No, bottoming out doesn't mean anything, I mean it doesn't have any negative consequences.

Tactile switches are positive, meaning you get feedback about when you "got it right" and that makes a big difference when you need to type accurately.

HP had tactile buttons on their old calculators, also excellent. Not sure if they still do. Using a Casio or TI next to HP could show you right quick how important good key click is.

The audible part of this isn't strictly necessary but it probably does help somewhat. The main thing is that feedback you get that lets you know you hit the key you wanted and can go on to the next one.

[alpslover]

Buckling springs, for example, have hysteresis, meaning you need to let the key go up for about 1/2 of the way before you can push it down again and register as a second keypress. This is due to the spring - as long as it is still in the buckled state, it can't release the switch contact.

yes, this is one of the reasons why i don't like the m for gaming.

I think Cherry switches don't suffer from this problem, except for the blue's internal "click" slider. Still, the contact can be triggered easier.

i think there is a bit of hysteresis in cherry blues, but it's not really noticeable to me unless i intentionally try to notice it.  even then, it's almost negligible to me.

Another issue is stiffness. Most shooters require you to hold the "move forward" key for long periods of time, so you want a keyboard which doesn't have too much up-force or your finger will get tired.

wouldn't this be an argument against cherry blacks, then?  the springs are quite a bit stiffer than in the other cherry switches.

[huha]

MX blues work differently than buckling springs, so the hysteresis question is not that easy to answer. With BS, click, tactile feel and activation coinside exactly, because they're all driven by a single element, the buckling spring.
The Cherry click slider, however, is not that simple. There's small hysteresis in blues when it comes to key activation. Press the key until it clicks, release it just a tiny amount until it deactivates and press it again (no click this time)--you'll obviously have to do this very slowly to notice, but actual "electrical" hysteresis on blues is not much. The reverse-action "click" when releasing a key happens way after that (the click slider is reset there, so when you press it again, it'll also click again), so mechanical and electrical hysteresis aren't identical.

-huha

[F2a]

Sorry looks like I was wrong on some technical aspects!

If I had been given a cherry blue keyboard for gaming I don't think I would have been able to perform as well as on blacks. Things like rapid presses are harder to pull off on the blues.