Saturdebate: Alps vs Cherry Actuation Point

[Dihedral]

It's always good to have some lively debate here, so to make everyone's saturday *that bit* more exciting, here's a question to get stuck into.

Which is better - the Alps or the Cherry actuation point?



The Alps Case

Alps switches actuate at the top of the keystroke; and on tactile switches the bump is also much closer to the top of the keypress. This distinct ALPS feature is also found in clone switches and has been carried over to Matias' tactile and click switches. This feature arguably allows alps to retain a lot of tactility while having a shorter travel then MX. Although it can throw off converts from MX, it may also make it easier to not bottom out. Whether this is a good thing is another matter entirely.

The Cherry Case

Cherry switches actuate within the middle of the keystroke, and there is significant key travel before the actuation point. This characteristic makes the switches distinctly mechanical in feel, and some might argue it allows one to get into a rhythm and that extra key travel is an important part of a good switch. Although some MX compatible switches have opted to move the actuation point upwards, these are often gamer orientated - Razer is the prime example. For typists; it may well be the case that the lower actuation point allows for a smoother typing feel; especially in tactile switches; as the typist's fingers have time to get up to speed before they hit the tactile bump.

What do you think? I am on the fence on this topic, so look forward to hearing your points of view!

[CPTBadAss]

Why not both? I actually like the actuation point of Cherry but enjoy the feeling of Alps switches in general more. It took me a little bit to get used to the moved actuation point in Alps actually. But since I always bottom out, I'm probably not the right person to chime in

[Badwrench]

Great question.  I prefer the feel of the lower stroke and earlier bump in feel of the Alps.  This is probably due to the fact that I bottom the crap out of everything I type on.  I still very much enjoy the feeling of clicky mx switches (blue/green/white) and use a JD40 with 62g blues as my DD at home.  The modded blues have a very satisfying light click the is very nice.  On the other hand, even though I prefer the alps swithces, I can't stand to type on my Chicony with whites for very long as the cheapness of the board just makes me go back to my other boards.  Hopefully I can get my Infinity mods set to go through so that I can finally type on my Matias quiet clicks on a regular basis. 

Overall though, it is still the variety that draws me to mechanical switches in general and the ability to change up when the mood hits.   

[Dihedral]

Why not both? I actually like the actuation point of Cherry but enjoy the feeling of Alps switches in general more. It took me a little bit to get used to the moved actuation point in Alps actually. But since I always bottom out, I'm probably not the right person to chime in

I was reading through all your reviews and the Mr Interface one made me think of this question. I don't see how bottoming out means you can't answer the question; after all - the feeling of the keystroke will still be different.

[CPTBadAss]

Oh thanks for reading my stuff. I'm glad it's interesting to people. And of course, its getting people into alps .

[Dihedral]

Oh thanks for reading my stuff. I'm glad it's interesting to people. And of course, its getting people into alps .

Oh yeah, about that. Every time I read your posts I instinctively go on ebay to look at blue alps. Someday there will be something good, and my paypal account will be damaged as a DIRECT result of your actions

[CPTBadAss]

Disclaimer: I am not responsible for any wallethacking that may occur. I'm only here to spam the 'hack and share my opinion But anyways, back on topic .

[rsadek]

I'm specifically trying to learn not to bottom out. Pounding on the keys seems to cause me wrist tension and pain after a while. After years of typing on non-mech boards, that habit is ingrained. The greater tactility and audible actuation on my mech boards is helping me learn to type more loosely and smoothly

So far I find that my habits on Kalih browns are the least bottoming out, on Matias clicks its 50/50 but getting better. On MX blue I haven't made much progress yet, burnt also use that board least. Still searching for the right switch....

I Imagine keycap mass and profile also come into play with the overall feel, so it may not be just a question of which switch is best. What do you think?

[zombimuncha]

I currently don't believe it's possible to notbottom on Alps. Happy to be proven wrong of course. I'm another one who bashes the bejeebus out of any key type, including the classic notbottom switches mx clear and blue.

[Hak Foo]

The high actuation point makes ALPS "feel" longer-travel than they are.

I'd sort of love to see a switch with huge "overtravel" capacity-- like 2cm stroke, but 2mm acutation.

[chyros]

Having tried both extensively, would I sound like a complete heretic if I said it doesn't make a lot of difference to me? Not that I wouldn't care, but I genuinely don't really observe a physical difference in how it affects my typing, etc.

Theoretically, I should like the Alps more; higher actuation is faster actuation. But frankly, I hit my switches so hard it doesn't really matter when it actuates xD .

[Dihedral]

I'm specifically trying to learn not to bottom out. Pounding on the keys seems to cause me wrist tension and pain after a while. After years of typing on non-mech boards, that habit is ingrained. The greater tactility and audible actuation on my mech boards is helping me learn to type more loosely and smoothly

So far I find that my habits on Kalih browns are the least bottoming out, on Matias clicks its 50/50 but getting better. On MX blue I haven't made much progress yet, burnt also use that board least. Still searching for the right switch....

I Imagine keycap mass and profile also come into play with the overall feel, so it may not be just a question of which switch is best. What do you think?

Keycaps definitely have an effect, most noticeably on sound however. In terms of feel, which actuation point do you prefer?

[Dihedral]

Having tried both extensively, would I sound like a complete heretic if I said it doesn't make a lot of difference to me? Not that I wouldn't care, but I genuinely don't really observe a physical difference in how it affects my typing, etc.

Theoretically, I should like the Alps more; higher actuation is faster actuation. But frankly, I hit my switches so hard it doesn't really matter when it actuates xD .

That's interesting. As always, I guess it affects some people more than others.

[jacobolus]

I definitely prefer the higher actuation point. I wish I could get a Model F with actuation at 1.5–2 mm into the stroke, and 2+mm of post-actuation travel.

There are two big problems I have with MX switches though, and neither is the actuation point per se. My issues are: (1) How non-tactile they are. After the tactile point, they immediately going back to being just as stiff as they were before (or actually, stiffer), so there’s very little feedback for your fingers, and the post-actuation part of the stroke is also much more tiring than a decent tactile/clicky switch. (2) They stick slightly on the upstroke, instead of effectively springing your finger upward (or at least returning smoothly), especially if you swap in lighter springs in an attempt to ameliorate problem #1.

You can tell that MX was designed first and foremost as a linear switch, with the clicky/tactile versions hacked together later as an afterthought. MX linear switches are okay if you lube them, especially MX black switches from ~1990, but almost all other tactile/clicky switches (IBM, Alps, SMK, Hi-Tek, NEC, Fujitsu, Topre, Omron, Burroughs, Marquardt, Matias, ...) are better than MX clicky/tactile switches, IMO.

I think if I were to use an MX-like-switch board on a regular basis, it would have to be vintage MX black switches (or linear Gaterons maybe), lubed, with Korean 65g springs, and some kind of solenoid/clicker/buzzer to give a bit of audio feedback at actuation.

[Dihedral]

I definitely prefer the higher actuation point. I wish I could get a Model F with actuation at 1.5–2 mm into the stroke, and 2+mm of post-actuation travel.

There are two big problems I have with MX switches though, and neither is the actuation point per se. My issues are: (1) How non-tactile they are. After the tactile point, they immediately going back to being just as stiff as they were before (or actually, stiffer), so there’s very little feedback for your fingers, and the post-actuation part of the stroke is also much more tiring than a decent tactile/clicky switch. (2) They stick slightly on the upstroke, instead of effectively springing your finger upward (or at least returning smoothly), especially if you swap in lighter springs in an attempt to ameliorate problem #1.

You can tell that MX was designed first and foremost as a linear switch, with the clicky/tactile versions hacked together later as an afterthought. MX linear switches are okay if you lube them, especially MX black switches from ~1990, but almost all other tactile/clicky switches (IBM, Alps, SMK, Hi-Tek, NEC, Fujitsu, Topre, Omron, Burroughs, Marquardt, Matias, ...) are better than MX clicky/tactile switches, IMO.

Why do you say that? MX Clears, for example, are not lacking in tactility... are they too scratchy for you?

[jacobolus]

MX Clears, for example, are not lacking in tactility...

They are not at all tactile in comparison to, say, good condition orange Alps or Matias quiet switches. (And if you compare to a Model F, ....)

They’re still essentially linear, with a sort of speed bump halfway through the stroke. I want a cliff, not a speed bump.

MX clear is also quite a bit stiffer than my preference, and sticks on the upstroke even when lubed, especially if you swap in a lighter spring.

[Dihedral]

MX Clears, for example, are not lacking in tactility...

They are not at all tactile in comparison to, say, good condition orange Alps or Matias quiet switches. (And if you compare to a Model F, ....)

They’re still essentially linear, with a sort of speed bump feel along the way.

To me, clears feel more tactile then matias switches - they are just tactile in a different way. I agree that tactility is kind of tacked on in MX though.

[jacobolus]

To me, clears feel more tactile then matias switches - they are just tactile in a different way.

Hopefully we can get some nice force curve measurements done of these sometime within the next few months, and I can explain in a chart,  rather than arguing about personal idiosyncratic definitions of the word “tactile”. I personally don’t think MX clear switches are very tactile at all, but you clearly have a different idea of what the word means than I do.

[falkentyne]

How do you --know-- they were designed to be linear?  Did Cherry tell you this?

If you're going to make such a grandiose statement, you need to back that up with facts.

[Dihedral]

How do you --know-- they were designed to be linear?  Did Cherry tell you this?

If you're going to make such a grandiose statement, you need to back that up with facts.

It is well known that MX Black was the first MX switch

[falkentyne]

That doesn't prove that mx switches were DESIGNED to be linear, and that tactile and clicky switches were hack jobs..
I forgot what logical fallacy that falls into, but that's like saying "human beings were designed to be white, because Adam and Eve were white" :/
There's nothing about the design of clicky/tactile switches to suggest they were 'hacked' in.

You CAN however, make the claim that cherry mx switches were not designed for backlighting (thus the off center legends=proves that argument), while romer-G switches were designed for backlighting.

[chyros]

That doesn't prove that mx switches were DESIGNED to be linear, and that tactile and clicky switches were hack jobs..

Frankly, if Cherry switches were designed to be tactile and/or clicky from the start, they did a pretty piss poor job . Even if you look at the whole construction of the switch, it's a massive giveaway that the design is inherently super linear - and you can feel it.

[falkentyne]

Well we all know that the best mechanical switch ever made was the system in the IBM Selectric.   It's only a matter of time before someone with too much money on their hands designs a NKRO USB keyboard with an IBM selectric II key mechanism.  I would seriously pay 4 figures if that thing were designed to last for years....

[Dihedral]

Well we all know that the best mechanical switch ever made was the system in the IBM Selectric.   It's only a matter of time before someone with too much money on their hands designs a NKRO USB keyboard with an IBM selectric II key mechanism.  I would seriously pay 4 figures if that thing were designed to last for years....

It would always be hard to encapsulate the feel of an actual typewriter key in a small switch module... but I'm sure someone will try at some point.

[falkentyne]

Not to derail the topic too much, but didn't someone here buy a selectric based terminal before ? (One of those gigantic selectrics that cost a TON?)  And he typed on it on a youtube video and he simply could not believe how AWESOME it felt.

I'm not rich, but there are PLENTY Of geekhack and ocn and other people who would pay BIG money for the mechanism in a Selectric to be implemented into a modern keyboard.  Even if it were big and bulky..as long as it were reliable  and had user fixable parts without soldering....I honestly think people are grossly underestimating the demand for such a keyboard.

it's pretty big.

[CPTBadAss]

They're pretty nice. But adapting a Selectric typewriter to modern usage seems like a ****ing nightmare. And I still prefer Beamspring or Marquart Butterfly or even Model F to them. I think you might be overstating the lust for Selectrics.