60% for Visual Studio?

[awhitedev]

I was reading the HHKB topic here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71217.0  and it got me thinking... can 60% be comfortably used for modern software development? I've read a lot of threads both here and on /r/mk where 60% keyboard users are mostly unix developers and they "don't use the arrow or home & end keys".

Well I write a lot of code in Visual Studio and so the Home. End. and Arrow keys are used quite a bit for me. While I've never actually used a 60% keyboard (yet) I'm thinking the FN layers and layout of a HHKB would be very easy to get used to and accessing the arrows and home / end wouldn't be hard to do at all since those keys are within comfortable distance to the FN key.

Going full size to TKL was a piece of cake... TKL to 60%? I'm not sure... but I'm going to try it! I'll be sure to review my thoughts on it after I'm done with my newest build.

Are there any keyboard enthusiast software developers here that have successfully used a 60% layout this way? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. 

[wlhlm]

Another Reddit thread that might help you.

[Baron Von Clop]

I'm only a student, but I'm currently in a Computer Science program and so my life includes tens of hours of programming per week. I use a KBP v60 and have had no issues getting used to it - the dip switches allowed me to use Caps Lock as a function key, so FN + WASD works as arrows. In addition, it has a toggle that turns the right Shift/Win/Menu/Ctrl into dedicated arrow keys, too. FN+T and FN+G are Home and End.

I'm no pro, but I was easily able to transition into using a v60 for Windows software programming.

[zombimuncha]

I Visual Studio on FC660m. It works well. Not exactly what you were asking, but there it is. I use Home End PgUp PgDn on Fn+Arrows all the time.

[Sygaldry]

I use VS2013, Eclipse, Vim, SublimeText, and Notepad++ depending on what I'm coding and I find the HHKB to be perfect for me =)

[NorrisB]

any popular keyboard is good for software development

[smknjoe]

I use the arrow keys a lot in Linux and Windows (and OSX). You should be able to use the HHKB just fine with a little practice.

...I still prefer dedicated arrow keys if possible though...

[Synjin]

I use my HHKB in all my SQL as well as my VS2013 for programming

[illitirit]

I code in VS2013 all the time (Usually C#).  As well as run excel all the time.


I tried a friends HHKB and it was just so unnatural for me because I am so used to TKL layout.  However, this was maybe 10 minutes with the keyboard.  At the end of the 10 minutes my brain had already started adjusting for the HHKB.

So I think, any keyboard is usable under any circumstance, it just depends how much you are willing to learn the new layout and have it become one with you.

However, with a TKL / 104 key I find that its just easier for some to just straight up code without having to learn extra fn combinations.

What bothered me most about the HHKB was that while it was nice that you can dip switch the del key and turn it into a backspace key, but you still dont have a dedicated del key + dedicated backspace key.  I use del religiously and that was a pretty big deal breaker for me.  Unless my friend didnt know how to set it up lol.  Maybe some hhkb users can chime in.

[awhitedev]

It's encouraging to know that there are programmers out there using modern IDEs with a 60% keyboard. I definitely use a wide array of tools in my day-to-day activities as a developer... most of which were named in this thread already.

I'm definitely a fan of "less is more"... but it's been a process to wean myself off having all the extra keys provided by larger boards. I'm sure it'll be somewhat hard to get used to not having dedicated arrow, home & end keys... but worth it in the end.

[spiceBar]

I own a HHKB and several other 60% keyboards.

I'm a developer. I don't use Visual Studio but I use several IDEs that are similar.

If you program, you should stick with a TKL or with a keyboard that at the bare minimum still provides arrows. This includes the FC660C/FC660M and several keyboards manufactured by Matias.

FC660M:
  http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1172
  http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1217

Matias "compact" keyboards:
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-mini-quiet-pro-for-pc-usa.asp
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-mini-quiet-bluetooth-laptop-pro-keyboard-for-mac-usa.asp
    (it does not matter that the keyboard above is "for Mac" - it can be used on PC)
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-wireless-mini-secure-pro-keyboard-for-pc-usa.asp

For two years I have tried hard to use strictly 60% keyboards for work: HHKB, Poker 2, GH60...

I have even designed 2 layouts that help navigating easily, giving access to the arrows, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn on easily accessible keys. These layouts are SpaceFN and GuiFN.

SpaceFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

GuiFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

After months of use, I had to come back to a TKL or a more compact keyboard with arrows.

You are just not as productive on a 60% keyboard. If you install an utility to monitor your keystrokes, you will see that you use the arrows all the time when you program. Personally, I use the arrows and navigation keys more often than the space bar.

Does it make any sense to have to use an Fn key to access these keys?

There is an argument I read often in favor or 60% keyboard, and it is that you don't have to move your hands much to reach for the arrows. For example in SpaceFN the arrows are accessible without moving your hands from the "home position" of touch typing.

I have experienced this myself, and it's true that it's shocking how much you have to move your hands when you go back to a TKL for example.

However, in the end this does not matter much. When you program, you spend a lot of time navigating, just navigating. You read stuff. Then you go to some place in the text and you type. Sometimes you will type something, move somewhere else, type something else, but most of the time you don't alternate like that in short bursts. So keeping the arrows near the home position is not such an advantage, after all. Having to press a key to access the arrows ends up being more of a burden than having to move your right hand to access them.

If you use chords like Shift-Ctrl-Right to select the next word, Ctrl-Shift-End to select to the end of document, and so on... then you need to press 4 keys at the same time quite often. It's tiring after just a full day of use.

The 60% layout is very seductive, but ultimately it's a failure for serious productivity.

There is also one thing to take into consideration: in Visual Studio, I think you have to use the F1-F12 keys fairly often. You don't have these keys on a 60% board, and once again you have to use an Fn key to access them. The FC660C/FC660M do not have them, but you have these keys on a standard TKL or on the Matias keyboards above.


Edit: WOW! This was my 1000th post. I have evolved a lot since I have discovered Geekhack, going from just looking for TKL keyboards, to 60% lover, and now 60% sceptic.

[awhitedev]

I own a HHKB and several other 60% keyboards.

I'm a developer. I don't use Visual Studio but I use several IDEs that are similar.

If you program, you should stick with a TKL or with a keyboard that at the bare minimum still provides arrows. This includes the FC660C/FC660M and several keyboards manufactured by Matias.

FC660M:
  http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1172
  http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1217

Matias "compact" keyboards:
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-mini-quiet-pro-for-pc-usa.asp
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-mini-quiet-bluetooth-laptop-pro-keyboard-for-mac-usa.asp
    (it does not matter that the keyboard above is "for Mac" - it can be used on PC)
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-wireless-mini-secure-pro-keyboard-for-pc-usa.asp

For two years I have tried hard to use strictly 60% keyboards for work: HHKB, Poker 2, GH60...

I have even designed 2 layouts that help navigating easily, giving access to the arrows, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn on easily accessible keys. These layouts are SpaceFN and GuiFN.

SpaceFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

GuiFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

After months of use, I had to come back to a TKL or a more compact keyboard with arrows.

You are just not as productive on a 60% keyboard. If you install an utility to monitor your keystrokes, you will see that you use the arrows all the time when you program. Personally, I use the arrows and navigation keys more often than the space bar.

Does it make any sense to have to use an Fn key to access these keys?

There is an argument I read often in favor or 60% keyboard, and it is that you don't have to move your hands much to reach for the arrows. For example in SpaceFN the arrows are accessible without moving your hands from the "home position" of touch typing.

I have experienced this myself, and it's true that it's shocking how much you have to move your hands when you go back to a TKL for example.

However, in the end this does not matter much. When you program, you spend a lot of time navigating, just navigating. You read stuff. Then you go to some place in the text and you type. Sometimes you will type something, move somewhere else, type something else, but most of the time you don't alternate like that in short bursts. So keeping the arrows near the home position is not such an advantage, after all. Having to press a key to access the arrows ends up being more of a burden than having to move your right hand to access them.

If you use chords like Shift-Ctrl-Right to select the next word, Ctrl-Shift-End to select to the end of document, and so on... then you need to press 4 keys at the same time quite often. It's tiring after just a full day of use.

The 60% layout is very seductive, but ultimately it's a failure for serious productivity.

There is also one thing to take into consideration: in Visual Studio, I think you have to use the F1-F12 keys fairly often. You don't have these keys on a 60% board, and once again you have to use an Fn key to access them. The FC660C/FC660M do not have them, but you have these keys on a standard TKL or on the Matias keyboards above.


Edit: WOW! This was my 1000th post. I have evolved a lot since I have discovered Geekhack, going from just looking for TKL keyboards, to 60% lover, and now 60% sceptic.

Congrats on your 1000th post! Glad it could be my thread

I actually have read your threads on SpaceFN and GuiFN. You definitely have a lot of experience in this area. I know there are times when you have to hit 4 keys at the same time... but I guess I always imagined it being easier if the Fn and right Shift key were split. Resting your right ring finger and pinky on these two keys has to be easier than contorting your hand to press a bottom row Fn key and other keys... but I'm basing that off of no prior wisdom or knowledge whatsoever.

I actually very rarely use the right four bottom row keys (Alt, Super, Fn / Menu, and Ctrl)... or Right shift for that matter (I know I type weird) Maybe it'd be better if I just used those keys for dediicated arrows.

[Synjin]

75% is always the best imo but topre doesn't really have a 75%

[steve.v]

My main keyboard is a HHKB type-S; programmable using Hasu's controller. I am a Java/ruby/rails developer. After years of using 104/84 keys, I truly believe 60% is best for development. Less is best and more. The following is not possible unless your keyboard is programmable or software enabled.

Capslock/CTRL is now backspace.

Dual modifiers: Keys have two behaviors. Space | CTRL. Left shift + key for capital letters, or tap for left paren (; right side vice versa. Hold enter, home row are now numbers. Double tap a number, sends F keys.

Layer tap and toggle: hold letter D, (ijkl) becomes arrow keys; otherwise tapping it becomes letter D.

Mouse keys; the only time I use a mouse is for gaming now. Hold K, (wasd) moves cursor around, q and e are pg up/down. j or spacebar is Left click and l is right click.

Be creative; see what works for you. You don't need many keys nor do you have to reach.

Thanks Hasu; you're the best.

[tbc]

filco minila is honestly probably the best most compact possible programming board.

[Macsmasher]

I'm a dev working in SQL and primarily use Microsoft Access as a front-end coding in VBA. I have several Realforce TKL boards and an HHKB Pro2. I prefer keyboard navigation over mousing whenever possible so the nav keys are very important for highlighting, copying, pasting, etc.

I work primarily on a TKL, but use my HHKB a couple times per week just for something different. I have no problems switching back and forth between the two layouts. However, I still prefer a TKL to the HHKB. I've been coding for 20+ years and it's just what I'm used.

However, I can be just as fast navigating code on the HHKB. In fact, I think I could even be faster on the HHKB if I was dedicated to the layout simply because your hands usually don't leave home row. I configured the left Win key as a function key (it's a dip switch option), so Page Up, Page Down, Home, End and arrows can all be done from home row. Pretty cool actually. However, when highlighting code with Control and Shift, I use the right Fn key and arrows and left hand slides over to actuate Control and Shift. It's all very intuitive and easy to do. In a day, you'll be just as productive as on a TKL.

I also mouse with both hands (I have a Steelseries mouse on each side of my keyboard). The smaller keyboard form factor brings both mice in closer and allows quick access to either mouse. And the fact that there's no nav cluster as on a TKL or full-sized keyboard means home row is centered between them. Since you probably don't run two mice, probably not a big deal for you. But I thought I'd mention it.

[henz]

I own a HHKB and several other 60% keyboards.

I'm a developer. I don't use Visual Studio but I use several IDEs that are similar.

If you program, you should stick with a TKL or with a keyboard that at the bare minimum still provides arrows. This includes the FC660C/FC660M and several keyboards manufactured by Matias.

FC660M:
  http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1172
  http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1217

Matias "compact" keyboards:
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-mini-quiet-pro-for-pc-usa.asp
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-mini-quiet-bluetooth-laptop-pro-keyboard-for-mac-usa.asp
    (it does not matter that the keyboard above is "for Mac" - it can be used on PC)
  http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/matias-wireless-mini-secure-pro-keyboard-for-pc-usa.asp

For two years I have tried hard to use strictly 60% keyboards for work: HHKB, Poker 2, GH60...

I have even designed 2 layouts that help navigating easily, giving access to the arrows, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn on easily accessible keys. These layouts are SpaceFN and GuiFN.

SpaceFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

GuiFN:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

After months of use, I had to come back to a TKL or a more compact keyboard with arrows.

You are just not as productive on a 60% keyboard. If you install an utility to monitor your keystrokes, you will see that you use the arrows all the time when you program. Personally, I use the arrows and navigation keys more often than the space bar.

Does it make any sense to have to use an Fn key to access these keys?

There is an argument I read often in favor or 60% keyboard, and it is that you don't have to move your hands much to reach for the arrows. For example in SpaceFN the arrows are accessible without moving your hands from the "home position" of touch typing.

I have experienced this myself, and it's true that it's shocking how much you have to move your hands when you go back to a TKL for example.

However, in the end this does not matter much. When you program, you spend a lot of time navigating, just navigating. You read stuff. Then you go to some place in the text and you type. Sometimes you will type something, move somewhere else, type something else, but most of the time you don't alternate like that in short bursts. So keeping the arrows near the home position is not such an advantage, after all. Having to press a key to access the arrows ends up being more of a burden than having to move your right hand to access them.

If you use chords like Shift-Ctrl-Right to select the next word, Ctrl-Shift-End to select to the end of document, and so on... then you need to press 4 keys at the same time quite often. It's tiring after just a full day of use.

The 60% layout is very seductive, but ultimately it's a failure for serious productivity.

There is also one thing to take into consideration: in Visual Studio, I think you have to use the F1-F12 keys fairly often. You don't have these keys on a 60% board, and once again you have to use an Fn key to access them. The FC660C/FC660M do not have them, but you have these keys on a standard TKL or on the Matias keyboards above.


Edit: WOW! This was my 1000th post. I have evolved a lot since I have discovered Geekhack, going from just looking for TKL keyboards, to 60% lover, and now 60% sceptic.

+1

I have a 60% keyboard which i use from time to time, but it always gets plugged out if need to do some serious coding. Only because its more comfortable with a tkl. not because i dont know the layers. Im mostly spending my time in linux, only going into windows when i have to program my tipro or play computer games

But that in mind, you still should get a hhkb because its a keyboard, and it looks nice

[NorrisB]

75% is always the best imo but topre doesn't really have a 75%

this not 75%? https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se08t0

[Flyersfan1]

75% is always the best imo but topre doesn't really have a 75%

this not 75%? https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se08t0

I think TKLs have always been considered "87%" with keyboards such as the keycool 84 and KBT Race falling into the 75% category.

[twiddle]

I do a fair bit of game dev work in C++ in VS.. Using Fn+WASD took some getting used to but I overall find that  my Poker 2 gets the job done. Dedicated arrows (eg on my Kaliet Mx-Mini (75%)) are more comfortable if I'm selecting code blocks using ctrl-shift-<direction> , and are probably faster if I actually gathered some data, but the Poker is no impediment now I am used to it.

[rowdy]

I imagine most IDEs would be similar in terms of keyboard navigation.

I found it really difficult using HHKB for Eclipse, although I was still learning the layout of the HHKB.  I might be a bit better now, but would probably still be frustrated by the lack of dedicated navigation keys.

[MrFex]

I'm a dev as well and I use Visual Studio as my primairy IDE! Personally I can't imagine being productive on a 60% but I do have a 75% RACE myself. The added function keys and dedicated arrow keys are a must!

But, I use my keyboard for when I am at customer sites and not as my main keyboard.

Why not take a TKL?     

[oneproduct]

In VS I use the Vim plugin, so I don't need dedicated arrows or home/end/etc. However, not having F10 and F11 is awkward so I use a TKL for programming still. Using a Fn key to turn the number row into F#s is only fine when you don't need them often.