Author Topic: 87 Key Model F Project  (Read 3378 times)

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Offline orihalcon

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87 Key Model F Project
« on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:48:35 »
Had a bad F107 PCB, (some of the numberpad capsense pads were damaged), and a bad Model F XT (not recognized at all) sitting next to each other and thought, hey, why not see how close this would fit in the case if it were shorter.  Turns out that the F107 internal assembly is just a bit taller than the XT, but everything else was pretty close.  A little Dremelling and looks like it will fit!

The internal top case rests on the top barrel plate rather than the edges, so it seems ok that the PCB sticks out past the barrel plate. 

I didn't have to re-attach any of the matrix after cutting the PCB on the right side since it turns out that only the columns for the unused keys were cut.  The rows all get attached to the controller from the Left side, so nothing wiped out there.  It still works perfectly, just as sensitive as a perfectly cleaned F107 PCB would be.

Might post some more pictures later comparing it to an unmodified AT, XT, F122, and F107 if anyone is interested.

Guess this is good evidence that grounding and PCB preservation isn't as critical as previously thought when a Model F PCB is used with xWhatsit's controller anyway.

99323-0

99325-1

99327-2

99329-3
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2015, 01:42:20 by orihalcon »

Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:53:10 »
Cutting the PCB wasn't a problem?  No traces route past the right side of the keys?
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Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:59:46 »
I like it so far and I wish you good luck. Hopefully cutting the PCB didn't cause any weird issues with the capacitance sensing.

From what I understand, the XTant project is only dedicated to making a keyboard from mostly XT parts, so that limits key count and layout decisions.

It seems like there are so many people who want so many different things. 60%, SSK/TKL, full size, matrix, ergonomic.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:16:13 »
Very cool - I hope you can get it working.

I agree on the desire to make custom Model F's.  I want a 62 key layout like a Kishsaver and that rev 3 62 key layout from that DT thread :



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Offline orihalcon

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:32:56 »
Cutting the PCB wasn't a problem?  No traces route past the right side of the keys?

Haven't tested it yet, but the column traces on the right go straight up and to the left towards the controller and the rows all go to the left as well. Oddly, I think it will work. Kind of one of those things you put together and hope it works.

I realize this is going to look a lot like an AT, but the FN keys are nice to have and I don't have to worry about the alignment on adding alt keys to an AT.

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 21:17:49 »
Cutting the PCB wasn't a problem?  No traces route past the right side of the keys?

Haven't tested it yet, but the column traces on the right go straight up and to the left towards the controller and the rows all go to the left as well. Oddly, I think it will work. Kind of one of those things you put together and hope it works.

I realize this is going to look a lot like an AT, but the FN keys are nice to have and I don't have to worry about the alignment on adding alt keys to an AT.

I'm curious to see how it looks compared to E TwentyNine's modded board when it's done:
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Offline Touch_It

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 22:40:51 »
If it works that will be awesome.   Would this not be the same layout as a 77 key kish? And similar to an AT.  It's late so I might not be thinking straight. 

Fake edit, it's not late I'm just tired


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Offline orihalcon

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 28 April 2015, 00:03:13 »
The 77 Key is missing the F1-F10 on the Right, but otherwise it is the same layout!

It would be a lot easier to convert an AT.  Will end up looking similar I am guessing. Not sure how the nav area will look.  There will be gaps on either side of the 3 columns, hopefully centered though. 

Makes a good proof of concept either way that capsense PCBs can be cut and still work assuming that it turns out to be the case.

Not sure what I'll use for caps yet.  Thinking basic ANSI caps for the 60% area and maybe white ones for the right and left columns.  Black and white definitely looks good, but I don't want to take apart a black M13 to do it.  Could use some grey Unicomp keys from the M122's, but not sure where to put them.

Kind of getting ahead of myself since I don't know for sure that it will work, just have a good feeling :)

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 28 April 2015, 01:08:21 »
Maybe going Pearl/Gray?  That would be interesting in itself.  The only thing you would need are the gray keys for the secondary color.  That could work.  You might get away with some sort of "industrial" color to the clamshell too.  Maybe something a bit more complimentary as a third color.  Since pebble is out of the picture, you could use that as the clamshell color.
It's a thought.
Sticking with the color palette, you could even go with the custom color palette and work from there.  This way, you won't conflict with color changes.

If you want to see pictures you can go here: http://snowdog993.imgur.com

Offline orihalcon

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 28 April 2015, 01:12:24 »
Very cool - I hope you can get it working.

I agree on the desire to make custom Model F's.  I want a 62 key layout like a Kishsaver and that rev 3 62 key layout from that DT thread :

Show Image




I love split spacebars! Just makes so much more sense to have each thumb be able to do something different, like space versus backspace.  Have done the Code key mod on an F107, but the code key wasn't quite long enough to make it line up with my left thumb at resting position anyway.  Makes a nice ALT/Apple/Command/FN key though!

Offline orihalcon

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 01:40:11 »
Everything works! Updated the original post with explanations and finished photos!
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2015, 01:56:44 by orihalcon »

Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 07:58:02 »
Looks good.  Kinda like the white navigation keys, might switch mine over to that.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 08:46:20 »

Maybe going Pearl/Gray?


In real life, Unicomp gray is a very "cool" gray and looks odd with the warmth of pearl and pebble, along with the case, in my opinion.

After living with them for a while, my favorites for blending into a standard set are: bright white as accented pearl, lilac as accented pebble (and I am not a "purple" kind of guy, but it works well), and orange for the "panic" type of accents rather than red.
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 09:03:14 »

Maybe going Pearl/Gray?


In real life, Unicomp gray is a very "cool" gray and looks odd with the warmth of pearl and pebble, along with the case, in my opinion.

After living with them for a while, my favorites for blending into a standard set are: bright white as accented pearl, lilac as accented pebble (and I am not a "purple" kind of guy, but it works well), and orange for the "panic" type of accents rather than red.

I think the reason I was saying this are the legends not being on the secondary keys.  Pearl/Pebble works normally, but something of some sort that would allow you to know what keys are mapped to what.  With blanks, the common keys are known, but some are unknown.  Like around the arrow keys, for example.  That could be nothing, or anything.
F-keys on the left, or mapped Esc and F1-F8 like on the AT conversion?
It's a puzzle with some missing pieces?  It's VERY cool that it works, I am just wondering what Orihalcon has in mind for the mapping?  Having legends on it may be very helpful.  Maybe it's just me, but with any unfamiliar layout, I would be lost.

Edit:  Another thought that came to mind are the Alt-Function keys....
That might be the ticket that fulfills everything.  Then you can use the left 10 keys for something else entirely.

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SBLE/AltFunNumKey
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2015, 09:23:29 by Snowdog993 »
If you want to see pictures you can go here: http://snowdog993.imgur.com

Offline 0100010

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 10:00:12 »

Edit:  Another thought that came to mind are the Alt-Function keys....
That might be the ticket that fulfills everything.  Then you can use the left 10 keys for something else entirely.

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SBLE/AltFunNumKey

Indeed.
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 10:24:04 »

Edit:  Another thought that came to mind are the Alt-Function keys....
That might be the ticket that fulfills everything.  Then you can use the left 10 keys for something else entirely.

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SBLE/AltFunNumKey

Indeed.
Show Image


That is perfection.  Absolutely what I was describing.  Very nice and well thought out layout!  That could easily be done, ya think?
If you want to see pictures you can go here: http://snowdog993.imgur.com

Offline Parak

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 10:33:46 »
Everything works! Updated the original post with explanations and finished photos!

That's pretty awesome, though it makes me wonder how many others will now start circumcising perfectly functional 122s and 107s :P

Offline dfj

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 12:14:20 »
Nice mod!
  I expect that given there was a nice, clean place to cut, you will have no problems - still, I'm curious how you measured the differences (and lack therof)?
  I would expect that exposing more of the sense line to the edge of the pcb (where the second row pad was cut through) would result in less tolerance to external noise, for example. I would have nipped those traces a bit away from the edge, just for luck, presumably - since I don't have any sort of testing setup to generate and measure levels of background noise. :(
  I'm not suggesting you didn't test well - I'm just a bit wary, as people tend to be a bit optimistic after a major mod.  I had a hilarious issue a few years back where my sense would get flaky after a few weeks to a month or so of uptime (mostly during the spring or fall, when the temp near my desk was exposed to large enough temperature changes as the weather, heat and AC changed.)
 
  Fun mod, though reminds me that the other week I was discussing (on irc) that I had noticed that a 122 F can be cut nicely along the jagged strobe including - "F" to make a bizarre 60-key left-handed gamepad of some sort... right hand might be a bit more aggro, though, if one wanted to make a split keyboard out of two 122s.

  Both your cut, and the one I was thinking of, preserve the strobes on the backside of the board, and merely shorten the sense lines.
As to whether things would be so cuddly if you removed the ground surrounding those lines while they were still active, or partially active, woud likely be a more representative test of whether the ground lines on the F is important with the xwhatsit. :P

Best of luck, hope your next project is successful too.
dfj
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Offline orihalcon

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 03 May 2015, 16:18:45 »
Nice mod!
  I expect that given there was a nice, clean place to cut, you will have no problems - still, I'm curious how you measured the differences (and lack therof)?
  I would expect that exposing more of the sense line to the edge of the pcb (where the second row pad was cut through) would result in less tolerance to external noise, for example. I would have nipped those traces a bit away from the edge, just for luck, presumably - since I don't have any sort of testing setup to generate and measure levels of background noise. :(
  I'm not suggesting you didn't test well - I'm just a bit wary, as people tend to be a bit optimistic after a major mod.  I had a hilarious issue a few years back where my sense would get flaky after a few weeks to a month or so of uptime (mostly during the spring or fall, when the temp near my desk was exposed to large enough temperature changes as the weather, heat and AC changed.)
 
  Fun mod, though reminds me that the other week I was discussing (on irc) that I had noticed that a 122 F can be cut nicely along the jagged strobe including - "F" to make a bizarre 60-key left-handed gamepad of some sort... right hand might be a bit more aggro, though, if one wanted to make a split keyboard out of two 122s.

  Both your cut, and the one I was thinking of, preserve the strobes on the backside of the board, and merely shorten the sense lines.
As to whether things would be so cuddly if you removed the ground surrounding those lines while they were still active, or partially active, woud likely be a more representative test of whether the ground lines on the F is important with the xwhatsit. :P

Best of luck, hope your next project is successful too.
dfj

Hmm, I guess my testing isn't all that scientific, but all keys registered at a voltage threshold of 130, which is what I've come to expect from completely internally clean F107's.  I guess the best way to test to see if keys falsely register is to turn the threshold down to as low as possible without getting false presses and see if it appears to be significantly different than an non-cut F107.

I actually do have some parts F107's that basically are missing cases and some keys, some with broken space bar stabilizers (washer mod works well on those).  Not sure what to really do with those without cases.  I can put those out there too I guess, was thinking maybe $150 on those if anyone wants to try a similar project.

I do think one could make a kishsaver out of an F107 if the lines on the left were just re-attached with jumper wire, but that doesn't solve the issue of what to use for a case.

Offline orihalcon

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 07 May 2015, 01:19:48 »
Size/Layout comparison between an unmodified AT, XT, and SSK:

99726-0

99728-1

Offline alh84001

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 23 September 2016, 02:36:12 »
Oh, wow. I keep on stumbling on these awesome mods every now and then and I just can't resist necroing them.

And metal backplate, almost-AT with additional meta keys? Simply great! I hope you're still enjoying it.

Offline Bucake

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Re: 87 Key Model F Project
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 23 September 2016, 12:10:16 »
somehow i never really noticed how good an F AT really looks. IBM sure made a bunch of great looking keyboards in their time, damn
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