Cherry browns vs. blues

[mech]

So my Das Keyboard II (the one made by Cherry, not Costar) has a bouncing key.  (I get repeats, like this eeexample.) I've got a support ticket out, but it's long past my warranty coverage.  Who knows if I'll even get a response.  This puts me back in the keyboard market. (TL;DR at bottom.)

(Brief digression: hi!  This is my first post.  I'm happy to find a community of people that care about their keyboards.  As a software engineer I basically have to type all day, so I'm very fussy about good keyboard design.  I've personally seen huge speed differences between domes, scissors, and mechanical switches, not to mention comfort and... okay, preaching to the choir.  Point is, you guys rock, and now I'm joinin' up.)

I've been doing a lot of research.  A lot of my google searches end up coming back here. I'm leaning towards getting a Filco; 104 or tenkeyless I'm not sure.  But the nagging question in my head is: blue or brown.

I love me the buckling spring.  I have two model Ms at home (along with some fun "rescue" stories on how I got them).  The BS is just too loud for the office, though.  And perhaps a little too stiff, but that's debatable.  I liked the blue switches in my Das II.  They are a little light for my taste; the high frequency clicking wasn't ideal but at least it was there.  However, I looked at the response curve of the brown switches.  Turns out that Cherry calls these switches "ergonomic" for a reason - the actuation is before the tactile point, so by the time you're feeling it you can let go.  According to Cherry's own charts, the blue doesn't have such love due to the extra click mechanism that gets put into it.

Problem is, the browns aren't very common.  I would ideally like to test type on boards this expensive before putting down, although I suppose I bought the Das II blind and was pleasantly surprised by the outcome.

TL;DR: How do you guys feel about browns vs. blues?  Would you recommend another switch stiffer than a Cherry blue but lighter than a BS?

[ch_123]

Compaq's MX11800 is a good way to try the browns for cheap. They're also reasonably common on eBay.

[timw4mail]

There's the Cherry white switches, which are basically stiffer browns...but those are even rarer than the browns. The only keyboards I know that have them are Deck's tactile keyboards.

[mech]

I've been reading some of the Deck threads about that.  I might get a Deck for home, but the LED back lighting is superfluous for a well-lit office environment - and it adds a lot of cost.  For that money, I can get a Filco tenkeyless + a spare numpad, if i don't like the way the Fn-numpad works. (I often don't like the offset keys for numpad use... I'm too trained for a linear numpad.)

Edit: just have to add, I'm using a cheap dome/membrane keyboard while I sort out the other problem, and it sucks. :ballchain:

[clickclack]

I noticed you mentioned that you thought cherry blues were a bit too light, it is my understanding that cherry browns are a tad lighter still. And if what you say is true about the tactile point being sooner on the brown cherry mechanism then I would imagine it would seem a tad lighter again. I don't know if this would be a concern or not but I figured I might as well bring it up.

btw do you think your blue cherry board is bouncing becaue of a faulty switch or faulty circuitry? Just curious

[itlnstln]

The Deck would be your best bet.  While I haven't spent a lot of time with blues, I didn't really noticed that much difference between the blues and browns in terms of resistance.

[mech]

I shouldn't say that the brown tactile point is sooner than the blue tactile point - just that it [the brown tactile point] is unambiguously after the actuation point.  But you are right about the browns being lighter than the blues, and the blues already seem a bit light for my taste.  Although compared to this dome keyboard I'm using now, the browns would be heaven...

I wish I knew why it's bouncing.  I know there's a lot of Das hate here, but that was with logic board problems on the III.  This is a gen II, which is actually made by Cherry Gmbh!  It's a G80-3485.  I have yet to try cleaning with compressed air.  Perhaps there's some "programmer goodies" stuck in there somewhere causing the problem.  I'll see if I can rustle up some gas.

Edit/update: No gas readily available... it'll have to wait.  OTOH, a blank Filco 104 with blues would basically be a direct replacement for my bouncing Das II.  And I certainly like that keyboard...

[mech]

The plot thickens.  Metadot is offering me a discounted trade-in for the bouncing keyboard, $87 shipped vs. $139 shipped.  The catch?  It's for a Das III.

[cmr]

how fast do you type? (go play typeracer a couple of times if you don't know)

if it's under 100 you're probably fine with the new das.

[mech]

I haven't done a test with my Das, but I usually score right around 100 when I'm cruising along comfortably and not trying to be a speed demon.  When trying to speed type, I've scored up to 159.

I just did this one (http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/) and got 108 wpm.  I think I'd score better a second time around since the way it switched from one word set to another was a little jarring at first, took me 2 switchovers to get the hang of it.  But... that's good enough to tell me that unless the problem with the Das III is fixed, I should under no circumstances get it.  Yep, second time around got 118.

[mech]

Thanks.  The polls are useful, but not everyone has tried all the switches in the poll.  Someone who has not tried a Topre may vote for BS over Cherry, but in reality may like the Topre the most if presented the opportunity to use it.  (I'm just nitpicking the methodology.)

Still, yeah... lots of love for the blues.

[mech]

Hmm.  That's NEVER happened in a Geekhack poll before.

Methinks I'll fit in.

In other news... it seems that I've fixed my Das-labeled Cherry G80.  I got a keycap puller from a friend and I think a hair had managed to sneak its way down in with the plunger, probably giving some false connection signals. (Human hair is slightly conductive.)  Before, I could trigger the "bounce" in 10-20 key presses.  This time around, I tried a hundred times, couldn't get it, and then typed a whole lot on it and didn't observe a duplicate letter once.

In addition, my friend had a Kinesis with Cherry brown switches!  They felt good.  If I had a keyboard with them, I might learn to love them.  But coming from snappy tactile switches like BS and blues, I feel like I would definitely need to spend some time adapting to the different feel.  I might even be faster on the browns... I just love that click, though.  Call me a sucker for nostalgia.

Now I have to convince Deck to use some blue switches.  I'm sure you guys have tried, though.

[itlnstln]

Nice pic, Ripster. That's hilarious.  I like the old man with Model M hammer.

[timw4mail]

Now I have to convince Deck to use some blue switches.  I'm sure you guys have tried, though.

With Deck catering mainly to gamers, I think that the blue switches aren't exactly high priority. In some ways, it would make more sense to have brown switches in the Deck keyboards than blues, mainly due to the way the click mechanism works.

[alpslover]

I wish I knew why it's bouncing.

bad switch.

[mech]

With Deck catering mainly to gamers, I think that the blue switches aren't exactly high priority. In some ways, it would make more sense to have brown switches in the Deck keyboards than blues, mainly due to the way the click mechanism works.

Yes, that makes perfect sense.  That doesn't mean they couldn't expand their market.  I suggested they offer keyswitch choice by generalizing the usefulness of them by category, such as "gamer," "all-purpose," and "hacker" (or "coder" if that's too polarizing).

[mech]

That would suck.  We need a keyboard-quality-awareness campaign for the consumer.

[Hofy]

We'll see if Deck makes it past 2009 first.  I think Logitech must be stomping those guys.

I was just over at their page and the 82 key Fire kb is not even listed now.
It was showing only 2 left in stock, then was out of stock.  Then they stopped listing stock available and it was back in stock.  Now it is just gone.

[itlnstln]

I hope those guys pull through.  It would be a shame to lose a quality keyboard company like Deck.

[maxlugar]

Thanks.  The polls are useful, but not everyone has tried all the switches in the poll.  Someone who has not tried a Topre may vote for BS over Cherry, but in reality may like the Topre the most if presented the opportunity to use it.  (I'm just nitpicking the methodology.)

I can honestly say that I have tried all the key switches in the poll, so my opinions are based on actual experience.  I imagine webit (Mr. Data Hand) has tried them all also.

I have large hands and tend to like classic loud mechanical action keyboards.  However, I also really like the Topre key switches on my HHKB Pro 2 and Realforce 87U, and recently have become attached to the Cherry MX Blue key switches in my Filco FKBN104MC/EB.

I personally do not care for Cherry MX Brown key switches.  The tactile bump is way too subtle for me - it almost feels linear.  I would choose the Dell AT101W with it's original black ALPS key switches over a keyboard with Cherry Browns if I were looking for subtle tactility without the click.  The Topre key switches also provide a better tactile response then the Cherry MX Browns. (not to mention that inescapable "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber")

The clickiness of Filco's Cherry Blue switches is addicting.  Key strokes are light and crisp and the keyboard is well constructed.  I had a Das III for a few days and returned it for a refund.

I type between 80-90 wpm with occasional bursts in excesss of 100 wpm and have never had any problems with the Filco.  If you decide on Blue Cherry key switches and can afford the extra coin, the $129 Filco with metal plate mounted key switches is a good option.

[itlnstln]

You can also get your Cherry blue fix in the Cherry G80-3000.  It's sold at several online retailers that specialize in POS equipment (geminicomputers.com is one, I think).  The plate-mounted switches and the PCB-mounted ones (like in the Cherry G80) feel quite different.  I have both a Filco and a Cherry G80 (I like browns, personally, and both my Filco and my Cherry have browns), and I have to say that I like the feel of the Cherry G80 a little better than the Filco.  That said, the Cherry G80 is a large 'board, so desk space is an issue; I use the Cherry at home and the Filco at work for this reason.
 
Either way, the Filco and Cherry are excellent 'boards.  I think you would be happy with either.  Don't discount the Cherry browns, they are some mighty-fine switches, they are just extremely light a take a little getting used to.  I wouldn't trade mine for anything.  That said, key feel is very subjective, so you are just going to have to try them for yourself eventually.

[maxlugar]

 
... key feel is very subjective, so you are just going to have to try them for yourself eventually.

Well put.  Subtlety is one of my weaknesses  

[rdjack21]

That said, key feel is very subjective, so you are just going to have to try them for yourself eventually.

That pretty much sums it all up. To really know for sure if you are going to like a switch or not you really have to try it. And by try it I mean live with the switch for at least a few weeks if not a month before you really make up your mind about it.

Personally I like the browns better than the blues and prefer Topre over everything else.

[Hofy]

This is why I have not ordered a Filco yet.  I can not decide what key to get it in.

I game and type, but have been using a Focus 2001 (white Alps) for years.

Do I wait and get a blue 10keyless?
Do I get a brown?  Linear Black?
Zero?  (I only type 40-60wpm)

[mech]

I agree with this, too, but it's like anything else subjective...  if you find people with similar opinions to your own, you have a reasonable authority for aiding the decision process.  I like spicy food, so someone who is burn-averse will have less personally relevant food advice for me.

That being said, I decided that I need to get more comfy with my existing switches.  I noticed that I bottom out on my Das II all the time, so I want to practice lightening my touch when I type to see if I can get more sensitive about the tactile point.  This will be troublesome considering I've got a heavy BS keyboard at home, but it'll probably pay off.  If I have a hard time adjusting to the light touch, I think that will be more evidence that I'm just less well-suited to lighter switches.

[timw4mail]

I agree with this, too, but it's like anything else subjective...  if you find people with similar opinions to your own, you have a reasonable authority for aiding the decision process.  I like spicy food, so someone who is burn-averse will have less personally relevant food advice for me.

That being said, I decided that I need to get more comfy with my existing switches.  I noticed that I bottom out on my Das II all the time, so I want to practice lightening my touch when I type to see if I can get more sensitive about the tactile point.  This will be troublesome considering I've got a heavy BS keyboard at home, but it'll probably pay off.  If I have a hard time adjusting to the light touch, I think that will be more evidence that I'm just less well-suited to lighter switches.

Well, its kind of a funny thing. You can be in the mood for really heavy switches one day, and the next feel like using lighter switches. That seems to be how I am, one day I'll be fine with the Cherry brown keyboard, the next I'll be on my Model M or Model F.

[mech]

I know how you feel.  When I first tried the blues, I wasn't sure I liked them.  Then after using for a while, I wasn't sure I liked the BS as much.  Now I like them both and don't have a "true" favorite between them.

One thing is for sure, my fingers fatigued fast on that crap dome keyboard I had to use yesterday.  With the possible exception of Topre, I can say domes are out.

[rdjack21]

That is why I keep my Space Saver around. Some days I just really like typing on it even if it is just for a little while. Same goes for my other boards as well. But for the daily driver or when I really need to bang some code out I plug in one of the Topre boards.

[maxlugar]

Well, its kind of a funny thing. You can be in the mood for really heavy switches one day, and the next feel like using lighter switches. That seems to be how I am, one day I'll be fine with the Cherry brown keyboard, the next I'll be on my Model M or Model F.

Why does this common sentiment regarding keyboards sound like you're discussing women?