Mouse vs. Trackball - Question (not poll)

[Hakhu]

There seem to be two large camps here. Much more balanced that in the general population.

I've been using mice all my computing life and had my hands on a trackball maybe 2-3 times. But I'm open to be convinced of the error of my ways.

So what are the advantages of trackballs? Why are mice so inferior? What are the disadvantages of trackballs (there gotta be some)? How long does it take to become sufficient using trackballs? Are they any good for gaming?

Pro mouse people may speak too. ;-) Maybe you've tried trackballs, but went back to using a mouse.

Thanks,
Hakhu

[bigpook]

I like trackballs, especially the kensington expert if only because they are more comfortable for me to use. YMMV of course and as you can see it will end up coming down to being a choice that only you can make. I don't really think there is any one mouse that can be tagged as being the best for everyone.
I don't think that mice are inferior; I just don't like having to move it around the desk. A trackball is stationary which is a plus and I don't need a mouse pad. Fairly minor quibble though.
I am sure hard core gamers will give a completely different opinion. : )

[hyperlinked]

I haven't used a trackball in years, but I do remember really lovin it when I had one. Something about trackballs always felt more fun to use. There's something satisfying about spinning a ball and stopping your pointer on a dime right over the button you want to click.

That said, they're not practical for me. Bigpook mentioned something about gamers. I used to be a hardcore FPS gamer and I don't know a single FPS player who's any good that uses a trackball. I also have to do graphic design fairly regularly as a Web developer. I've never tried to do design using a trackball, but I suspect it'd be challenging.

I used to be a physical therapist so I'm an ergonomics freak and trackballs really appeal to that side of my interests, but with the degree of precision available in today's mice and the availability of mice that don't hurt my hand with extended use, the only reason I have left to use a trackball is because it's fun. Before we had all these laser mice that are so damn precise even when accelerated, I could get a productivity boost from trackballs because I could zip my pointers around so quickly.

[Eclairz]

Trackballs are useful when you don't need continuous movement (e.g. drawing, os, web-browsing) since you can let go of the ball and click a button. Where people find it is more better than a mouse is because there is more tactility in moving a ball and spining the ball with either hand is more comfortable than using a mouse in your non-dominant mouse hand. A trackball can be used with the thumb (logitech) or fingers (kensington).

A larger ball will improve accuracy with a trackball, so large pool ball sized trackballs can give you improved accuracy. But I prefer smaller more managable trackballs like the kensington orbit since it just feels more ergonomic. Because you do not have to continually put pressure on the ball like you would with a mouse when working with it, there is less stress on your hand, but also because it is designed not to be used continuously it is not useful where continuous hand use is required e.g. games.

People in general are used to waving their hands which is why mouses are generally more popular but intricate finger movements to control a 2D cursor is not built into people as standard. Generally if you think about it a trackball is more suitable for 3D applications as you are able to go forward, backward left and right and also twist the ball (new kensington slimblade).

Trackballs don't seem to have found the best way to handle scrolling however. Which to me is the main thing holding me back from using trackballs more often. If kensington redeveloped the orbit with the scroll wheel around the trackball like the kensington expert mouse and also the twisting sensor of the kensington slim blade, and also a few more buttons for programming. That for me would be a much more improved compact trackball which i could use everyday with features which are more useful.

[timw4mail]

Trackballs also have more inertia, which is either good or bad depending on what you are doing.

I haven't used that many trackballs, but the one on my Compaq is too slow, and has too much inertia for me to really enjoy using it.

[bigpook]

I agree with eclairz on the kensington orbit. Give it 4 buttons and a scroll ring and it would be just about perfect.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I am perfectly comfortable using any type of pointing device, but I would have to say I prefer to use trackballs over mice, and I prefer trackpoints to track pads.  As it is, I just got a TrackPoint L40 Mouse/Trackball pointing device that can be used as a trackball or a mouse. I always use it in trackball mode.  

Another advantage that trackballs have is that they can be built right into keyboards.  Example, the IBM Model M5-2 has a tracking ball built into the keyboard, which is a good way to save space if there is no room for a mouse.

[rdjack21]

Personally I prefer a trackball and have been using them for a very long time. I do admit that they are not the perfect device for everyone but I do like them. Also I don't have any trouble with using them for detail work like others do.

[chimera15]

I haven't used a trackball in years, but I do remember really lovin it when I had one. Something about trackballs always felt more fun to use. There's something satisfying about spinning a ball and stopping your pointer on a dime right over the button you want to click.

That said, they're not practical for me. Bigpook mentioned something about gamers. I used to be a hardcore FPS gamer and I don't know a single FPS player who's any good that uses a trackball. I also have to do graphic design fairly regularly as a Web developer. I've never tried to do design using a trackball, but I suspect it'd be challenging.

I used to be a physical therapist so I'm an ergonomics freak and trackballs really appeal to that side of my interests, but with the degree of precision available in today's mice and the availability of mice that don't hurt my hand with extended use, the only reason I have left to use a trackball is because it's fun. Before we had all these laser mice that are so damn precise even when accelerated, I could get a productivity boost from trackballs because I could zip my pointers around so quickly.

This is mainly because they're not competitive with modern gaming mice.  There isn't a produced gaming trackball that has the functionality, or more importantly dpi of mice out, with the exception of my ugly ass prototype.

I use my hacked trackball which was built from a microsoft sidewinder to own in fps's consistently.  I have a min of 2 to 1 kill ratio in almost every game I play.

I primarily play war rock right now, even with the hackers I own there.

The main deal with getting a trackball is that it should be index finger based, you don't have as much control with a thumb based model.  Right now the only one that's at all useable in fps's that was a commercial trackball is the tbe.

As far as design goes, trackballs are still used heavily with 3d cad and 3d animation designers.

Normally with trackballs you have a great deal more of precision, but you typically sacrifice smooth linear motion, as others have said.  But again this is typically a problem of low dpi  of sensors in older trackballs.  If you try to like draw a line with a tbe in photoshop, you'll notice it's a very jagged line, this is because the sensor is only about 800dpi, where most modern gaming mice are upwards of 2k.  This means that in modern games it's difficult to use even a tbe because your precision doesn't make up for your lack of turn rate relative to the amount that you turn the ball.  

This is solved with my hacked trackball because I can switch on the fly the amount I want to turn, either for precision if I'm a sniper, or fast if I'm playing an assault class.  So I can turn on a dime, and keep turning if I need to.

This has an advantage over mice even because I never reach a limit in close combat, and can keep turning and dancing as warrock allows.

You also have to get used to the setting you have in the mice settings.  I use trackballs with no acceleration and the sample rate turned maximum.  I think this allows for the most control.

[timw4mail]

800dpi, where most modern gaming mice are upwards of 2k.

Upwards of 2000 dpi? I don't think that's true yet. My Salmosa goes up to 1800dpi, but I actually can't stand that much precision, and keep my mouse at 800dpi.

[o2dazone]

motion graphic artist of 3 years, front-end web developer of 8 years, graphic designer of 10 years, fps'er of 12 years and long time trackball user of 7 years here

Trackballs own for doing laptop work in bed. Don't need a flat surface, you can practically rest the trackball anywhere you feel is comfortable.

Trackballs do suffer from not being able to give it a smooth linear motion, but depending on how much real estate you give your mouse, you'll have the same problem with one (pick it up and move it). For the most part though, if you're trying to do something you were capable of doing with a mouse, and not capable with a trackball, there's probably a better way of doing it in the first place (specifically, Photoshop). Drawing straight lines freehand without a tablet is a pain in the arse, no two ways about it.

Downsides? It takes time to learn I suppose. And you might find yourself getting a second trackball, depending on how important it is for you at work. Really the main problem is people don't give trackballs a fair chance. They try it for a month and say "yeah it's cool for browsing, but for gaming/graphic design/video editing, I use a mouse". These are clear indications that they haven't gotten used to it yet.

I think most competitive gamers can't really take a two month hiatus to learn a new peripheral, which is understandable. But I've been able to more than hold my own since Q1 on a trackball, and all it takes is practice.

Upsides to a mouse over a trackball? It's more freely available at a workplace. I'd venture to say they're a tad easier to repair, if you're into that stuff. The market is a lot more limited for trackballs, and they generally cost more. If you don't know how to properly clean the tracks of a trackball, they can jam up in a couple days of use, in which you have to pop the ball out, and clean it out to unjam it (nothing like a jerky trackball to ruin any work you were in lol). A few more will come to me later, but I like reading peoples responses. Generally not as anti-trackball as the previous threads were

[chimera15]

Upwards of 2000 dpi? I don't think that's true yet. My Salmosa goes up to 1800dpi, but I actually can't stand that much precision, and keep my mouse at 800dpi.

This one, I'm considering doing another trackball hack with is 2500dpi, at least that's what it says.  The sidewinder version 1 I used is 2k.

http://cgi.ebay.com/A4Tech-XL-750F-3x-Fire-Laser-Gaming-Mouse-Retail-Pkg_W0QQitemZ230376851344QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a387c790&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Most logitechs, and razers are 2k.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LOGITECH-G5-2000DPI-LASER-GAMING-MOUSE-3-YEARS-WRTY-NEW_W0QQitemZ200387173883QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Input_Peripherals?hash=item2ea8019dfb&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[Hakhu]

Upwards of 2000 dpi? I don't think that's true yet. My Salmosa goes up to 1800dpi, but I actually can't stand that much precision, and keep my mouse at 800dpi.

http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?cat=mouse&xf=419_2000

Listing of mice upwards of 2000dpi at a European price comparison. 111 entries. Seems to me, chimera is right.

Even my 2 year old G9 has 3200dpi and the latest Logitech G500 has 5700dpi.

[Rajagra]

http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?cat=mouse&xf=419_2000

Listing of mice upwards of 2000dpi at a European price comparison. 111 entries. Seems to me, chimera is right.

Even my 2 year old G9 has 3200dpi and the latest Logitech G500 has 5700dpi.

This is the thing. Trackballs are functionally superior. But not when they use technology several generations older than that used by mice.

What's the best trackball run at? The CST L-Trac is 1600cpi. That's very usable, but how can I justify spending over £100 on one when it's left in the dirt by a mouse that costs much less? Even £25 mice released years ago outperform it.

The irony is that mice don't even need the high resolution as much as trackballs, they can use as much desk space as you need. Many top gamers use mice at low resolutions.

[itlnstln]

Many top gamers use mice at low resolutions.

When I was a gamer, I found that too high of a sensitivity or too high of a resolution caused problems when trying to perform fine movements.  This made it difficult to aim in some games caused me wrist pain trying to control the mouse.

[timw4mail]

When I was a gamer, I found that too high of a sensitivity or too high of a resolution caused problems when trying to perform fine movements.  This made it difficult to aim in some games caused me wrist pain trying to control the mouse.

With that in mind, I used to use a ball mouse for everything, including gaming. Precision and sensitivity is a fine balance.

I have a cheap Rosewill mouse that is unnervingly sensitive. It probably has a fairly high resolution and fast poll rate. On the other hand, I got a Logitech MX 400, and found that more comfortable, because I could actually control it more easily.

And my Salmosa...that's the one I really like now, because I can change the resolution/poll rate to where I feel most comfortable.

[Rajagra]

Trackballs will always be inferior because there isn't a direct relation to travel distance of the hand to the cursor on the screen as with a mouse.

I don't know what you mean. You move a trackball 1" it moves the cursor X pixels. You move it 2" the cursor moves 2X pixels. I'd call that a direct relationship.

The only exception is if you flick the ball. That's why you need high resolution. So you don't need to flick the ball often.

[Rajagra]

Place flat hand above track ball (not the thumb type, the upwards-facing index finger type.) Move hand around. Action is exactly same as moving mouse. Until you run out of movement.

When they stop fitting trackballs with crappy old sensors they will be able to compete again. Trouble is it's a vicious circle. They are a minority preference so they won't spend money improving them, so few people buy them, etc. etc....

[williamjoseph]

this was the best mouse i ever owned.



Microsoft's trackball optical.

DPI is not adjustable, however, i have dominated with this device in quake3/4 and unreal tourny.... untill my daughter decided to make it cordless for me.  it is a laser tracking mouse. the trackball had embeded reflectors with a mirror finish.  i never had to worry about running out of desk space, or flicking the mouse to get the wire back out of the way because the device was stationary.   i purchased it at walmart bak in 2001 for $40.  now on ebay and amazon it is typically $100+ as a used device.  think i might get another one soon.....

[Rajagra]

Jesus. No it is not as a mouse.

And direction is much less accurate. You won't hit that button 20 degrees up 1000 pixels to the right at once. Almost, and you need a small correction. Try to draw a shape.

It is not even exactly like a mouse if you want to defend trackballs because you like them.

Jesus. I said "Action is exactly same as moving mouse. Until you run out of movement." And it is if you do as I said and hold your hand flat above an upwards-facing trackball.

Moving hand right moves cursor right proportionally to the distance the hand moves.
Moving hand forward moves cursor up proportionally to the distance the hand moves.

The same as if you were moving your hand while holding a mouse.

I'm not going to draw a picture or make a video to explain this simple concept to you.

[hyperlinked]

When I was a gamer, I found that too high of a sensitivity or too high of a resolution caused problems when trying to perform fine movements.  This made it difficult to aim in some games caused me wrist pain trying to control the mouse.

When I was gaming, I played my best on my favorite roller-ball mouse. I have no idea what the DPI was on that thing, but it couldn't have been very high by today's standards. It was from the days before it was common to advertise the DPI of a mouse.  I went on to buy high precision gaming mice, including an early version of the Logitech MX gaming mice series that I now hate so much. I eventually went back to that mouse because rolling ball's tactile feedback of the mouse moving really helped me aim.

It's not a paradox that you can be more accurate with a low precision device and less accurate with a high precision device. The precision only matters if you can make use of it properly. To this end, I can both take Webwit's view and be against it.

Jesus. I said "Action is exactly same as moving mouse. Until you run out of movement."

From a human physiology point of view, control of a trackball cannot be as accurate of a control device as a mouse in a movement for movement comparison. A trackball is controlled either with a thumb or with one to several fingers working as a single unit whereas a mouse can be manipulated through fingertip control with each digit making independent adjustments.

That said, precision is overrated. Fitting a trackball with higher precision sensors may not be as beneficial as it may seem because a trackball is uniquely suited to work well as a low gain device. Errors are dampened because you have more time and space to make adjustments. While you can also make your mouse a low gain device, it's impractical because the excessive amount of wrist movement will either wreck your hand or you'll take so long to mouse that you'll never get anything done.

What makes sense and works best is all relative.

[microsoft windows]

My trackball isn't the best thing in the world. It's old, the ball wiggles around, and the mechanism squeaks.

[timw4mail]

You sure have strange hobbies, Ripster.

[Rajagra]

This is a well known fact

Must be true then.

[hyperlinked]

The main deal with getting a trackball is that it should be index finger based, you don't have as much control with a thumb based model.  Right now the only one that's at all useable in fps's that was a commercial trackball is the tbe.

As far as design goes, trackballs are still used heavily with 3d cad and 3d animation designers.

Normally with trackballs you have a great deal more of precision, but you typically sacrifice smooth linear motion, as others have said.

Don't take this as a slag on your favorite input device. There's no way a trackball can theoretically have the same degree of sensitivity to input as a mouse does. It doesn't matter if you control a trackball with your index finger, your thumb, or your palm. One limitation that you will never get past is that the trackball can only accept one line of force at a time.

If you're using a mouse, each of your fingers can act independently to accelerate or dampen a movement. Most people, of course, move their mouse with their wrist and arm, which turns it into a very inprecise device.

That does not mean that a mouse is superior or that I'd even stand a chance of lasting 30 seconds against you in a game after all my blathering. It just means that the fixation on dpi as the reason why people aren't converting from one device to the other is totally off base. DPI may matter, but a lot of other factors that can't be boiled down to numbers and stats may really be what makes a device best for what you use it for or for the way you use it.

I gave an example that I was best at sniper type games with an old roller ball mouse. My gameplay suffered hugely when I moved onto fancy high precision "gaming" mice and finally rebounded when I discovered a Razer Diamondback, which had the same DPI as the Logitech MX series that I've come to hate. What was it about the Razer mouse? The higher dpi doesn't hurt, but I think it's the shape that really made it for me.

I'll say it again. You can be more accurate with a less precise device and less accurate with a more precise device. We don't live in laboratory conditions.

[microsoft windows]

If you want to use an OK mouse, try those run-of-the-mill Dell USB mice with the silver buttons. They're comfortable, precise, and they just get the job done. No fancy-shmancy features that annoy me.

[itlnstln]

If you want to use an OK mouse, try those run-of-the-mill Dell USB mice with the silver buttons. They're comfortable, precise, and they just get the job done. No fancy-shmancy features that annoy me.

Those are actually OK.  I have had some tracking problems with those from time to time, though.

[TWX]

I like big trackballs like the Kensington Expert Mouse series in part because I have fairly large hands and I don't have to put my hand into an unnatural position to use it.  I also find 'left click' on the thumb is very convenient, and 'right click' with the pinky isn't too bad either.  I can lazily roll my hand across the trackball to control the cursor, and with the supplied wrist pad my arm ends up remaining straight.  Plus, I no longer have to worry about cords or the like.

The only time I find a mouse to work better is when I'm playing games like Solitaire, and that's mainly because at work almost all of the PCs I service have mice and I'm used to playing it with a mouse.

Oh, when I had a triple-head system set up a few years back the big trackball was handy because I could spin it and let it rotate when I needed to go from one opposite extreme to another.

I actually don't like trackballs that are thumb-ball control.  Those drive me crazy.

[Kostamojen]

Sorry to bump this...

But i'm surprised at the arguments for ergonomics that trackballs have less issues than mice.

Personally, I switched from using a trackball (Trackman Marble) about 10 years ago to a mouse because after a couple hours of hardcore gaming, my thumb felt like it was going to fall off!!!

Don't get me wrong, it worked great for gaming and still does IMO (and I still have it) but the mouse i've been using since, a Logitech Mouseman Wheel circa 9 years ago, has never given me any sort of wrist or hand pain.

Actually, i'm having trouble finding a replacement for it now...  Nothing seems to have similar ergonomics.  I got a G500 for Christmas and had to return it due to major wrist/thumb pain, and just got a Evoluent
VerticalMouse 3 Rev 2 today which i'm going to have to return too.

I might have to just stick with the old design until it breaks, and perhaps try the trackball again to see how that works...

[ch_123]

Usually I'm a proponent of the whole "Trackballs are **** for games" argument, but I've been playing L4D2 on my Kensington for the past few days, and have been doing so no worse than I would be with a mouse.

[microsoft windows]

I use mice and trackballs for games and they all work perfectly fine.

[ch_123]

Woops, typo. I meant to say that Trackballs, not mice, are usually bad for games. Then again, depends on the game. FPSes are the most demanding ones. For most other games it doesn't make much difference either way.

[hyperlinked]

But i'm surprised at the arguments for ergonomics that trackballs have less issues than mice.

Personally, I switched from using a trackball (Trackman Marble) about 10 years ago to a mouse because after a couple hours of hardcore gaming, my thumb felt like it was going to fall off!!!

If you need to make a lot of wide sweeping moves with your pointing device while you're gaming, you may either need to increase the sensitivity of your trackball or try a different sized trackball or go back to a mouse as you did. If your trackball use forces you to overuse your thumb instead of your wrist, you'll just eventually develop pain in your thumb joints and your thumb is already very prone to injury from overuse because it's your most mobile joint in your hand and you already use it for so many things when you're not using the computer.

I think you have to take everything here with a grain of salt. Most people are just giving anecdotal evidence based on what works for their particular style of gaming/drawing/typing/using a computer in response to limited information offered by someone asking a question. The problem with getting a blanket recommendation on ergonomics is that it's highly dependent on what you're using a device for, how you use that device in particular, what you need out of a device, and what kind of injuries you're most susceptible to.

A lot of things that are seen as ergonomic today may prove to be just "less worse" in one way, but "more worse" in another way years later when cumulative trauma from overuse builds up. A lot of us here are overusers of our devices and you'll notice a lot of people switch back and forth between different devices when one is giving us problems. The problem with being overusers is that there's no one thing that will save your from your habits and possibly in the end there will be nothing that will save you from your habits except gaming less, typing less, or computing less.

[Rajagra]

i'm surprised at the arguments for ergonomics that trackballs have less issues than mice.

Trackman Marble: my thumb felt like it was going to fall off!!!
Logitech Mouseman Wheel: never given me any sort of wrist or hand pain.
G500: major wrist/thumb pain
Evoluent VerticalMouse 3: going to have to return.

Since you've had more issues with mice than trackballs, maybe you shouldn't be surprised at the argument you mentioned?

You've demonstrated how important it is to find a device that suits you, which is what ergonomics should be all about.

But there might be some truth in saying trackballs could be uncomfortable for intense, lengthy work, as you position your hand on them in the same way every time, whereas mice allow you to adjust your grip slightly. I still think trackballs are more comfortable for general use though.

[Arc'xer]

A while back I was actually interested in using a trackball for gaming. Now that I look back it's not a good idea although at the same time I do wonder if it would be good had a proper gaming trackball mouse could be made. But, I think the trackball gamer died 10-12 years ago. I spent hours researching and either there's nothing on the table or the posts are so old and so uninformative that they are worthless to read, not that it was all bad I did find some good information but nothing really special. Seems like either trackballs were used because optical mice weren't very good or people didn't like the rollerball mice like the Logitech Wingman or Razer Boomslang 1000/2000/2100 or any other popular mice back then. Like I said I did run into a lot of Quake and Unreal tournament players using them quite well.

I did find a few interesting posts. I recall running into the Joystick/Trackball system the Panther XL controller.



PXL being used

I gotta agree trackballs aren't for gaming. I guess it depends on the person though, seems to do okay. Guess it's the quest to find a better wheel or mouse in this case.

[ricercar]

I like the design of that joy-ball controller. The only one on eBay today is 15-pin legacy, not USB. Is there a dependable 15-pin joystick-to-usb adapter?

[Kostamojen]

Since you've had more issues with mice than trackballs, maybe you shouldn't be surprised at the argument you mentioned?

I think the ideal solution is a mouse with a trackball like grip (by trackball, I mean the thumb-based trackballs).  Something where your hand is at a 45 degree angle and rests nicely but doesn't require extensive finger movement like the trackballs use.

However, I do have a Trackman Marble FX i'm going to plug in here later and try out for general use.

Maybe both is the best solution?

[wolf]

I've always loved trackballs - thumb operated.  Years ago I had an old basic Logitech (it's still in a box out in the garage) three-button trackball that I nicknamed "the brick" or "the slab" as it was just a basic rectangular block with three buttons to the right and a ball to the left.

I then had to use mice as there was no suitable replacement for it available on the local market (ok, I confess, I lost it in one of my many moves and didn't find it again until recently).

I dislike using as I have always found them uncomfortable.

I recently located - at considerable expense - a Logitech Trackman wheel and utterly love it.  I use it at home but they won't buy me one at work so I'm waiting 'til I have some spare funds to buy one for use at work.

I find its shape to be more comfortable than that of "the slab" - which I had personally found to be more comfortable to use than any mouse (YMMV, natch) - and I love the fact it has a scroll wheel.  

Being basically lazy, I've programmed the middle button to be "double-click" so I only have to middle-click once on icons to activate them (something I've done with mice for years as well.)

I use it for everything I do - browsing, design work (vector graphics), image manipulation and the usual run of mouse-related stuff the average computer user is accustomed to.

I'm not a hard-core gamer so I've never run into any limitations using the trackball.

I have carpal tunnel syndrome and gripping small things - such as mice and telephone handsets - for long periods makes my thumb, index and middle fingers go numb.

I do not get that problem with the trackball as I rest my hand on it without exerting inward gripping pressure.

Our OSH officer at work will not allocate funds for me to get a trackball for work without medical certificates and a lot of mucking around as "using the thumb so often may cause strain in it and lead to RSI" - despite the fact that I have attested that I get less pain and strain using my trackball for hours at home than I do when using the mouse at work.

Never mind, I already shelled out for my own compact keyboard for work (wouldn't give me one of those without a medical cert, either) so I could move the mouse closer so I'll shell out for my own trackball for there, as well.  It's not like I'd be leaving it there if I left...

I also like the fact that my trackball is always in the same place relative to my home keys - I never have to look, grope or try to remember where I last left it as I have to with a mouse.

Only thing I want to change - and it's trivial to do - is to make a sloping holder for it to set it at more of an angle to better suit a comfortable hand position.

It is, as always, a matter of what works for you personally - for me, the thumb-controlled wheeled trackman is perfect.