Author Topic: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)  (Read 3252 times)

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Offline berserkfan

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Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« on: Mon, 08 June 2015, 09:23:33 »

Sigh. Once again I am in need of the mental resources of the geekworld.

I desoldered my Filco minila, but can’t separate PCB from plate because of this weird thing. It started out as a big ball of solder, but after much wicking it seems to be this. Some kind of metal joint.

I have never seen this on any PCB in my life. And I’ve worked on, maybe 70-90 PCBs by now. Just how do I separate this PCB from the plate?
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 June 2015, 13:36:11 by berserkfan »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 15:47:57 »
Looks like they soldered the plate to the PCB for grounding, weird.  Is there just the one or might they be using the plate to link two remote parts of the PCB?

If it really won't desolder (a plate is a big hunk of metal to steal your heat so won't be easy - looks like you've made a good attempt) and there's just one that you need gone your options appear to be:

1 - Super desoldering - get a micro torch or noisy blue flamed cigarette lighter and heat it from all angles for a second or two (keep moving the flame) while trying to separate the plate and PCB - if there's room slide a mini screwdriver between the plate and PCB to use as a lever.  If you hold the heat too long you will damage the PCB, but if it works it's the cleanest option.

2 - Drilling/grinding it from the back of the PCB.  There no traces that nearby to damage, just be careful not slip off.  You can always solder a wire connection back to a scratched off area on the big trace if it's needed.

3 - Get a small cutting disk on a Dremel and carefully put it in the switch hole to cut it from the plate side.  This will leave you with a bit of plate sticking out of the PCB, but the plate should still look perfect once you put a switch in the hole and the bit in the PCB is right next to the switch so shouldn't be a problem.  Once the rest of the plate is out of the way you may be able to cut it off.

Which bit(s) are you trying to save?
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 June 2015, 15:49:37 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline neverused

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 16:55:55 »
It looks like you made need to really heat it up and pry at the same time.  Or use a dremel as suicidal_orange mentioned.

Offline VoteForDavid

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 21:50:23 »
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1536&bih=858&q=soldering%20gun&=&oq=&gs_l=&gws_rd=ssl

You need a LOT of heat into that, because the plate is a big heat sink.  A 20 or 30 watt iron is not going to cut the mustard.
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Offline Charger

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 22:02:26 »
yep looks like it will just take more heat to get that off. I ran in to a plate screwed to the pcb and the screw soldered over so you i couldn't remove it until i removed the solder

Offline Joey Quinn

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 22:04:17 »
Would a hot air torch work for heating the whole joint?
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 22:08:58 »
Thank you all guys.

Really can't decide what my option is. None are good. It doesn't look like a screw so I was wondering how to figure that out.

I think demeling the plate is the easiest solution, but will leave this thread up to see if anyone has good advise to share. I think anything involving incredible amounts of heat is unsafe for an amateur like me to handle.
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Offline Charger

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 22:17:34 »
Thank you all guys.

Really can't decide what my option is. None are good. It doesn't look like a screw so I was wondering how to figure that out.

I think demeling the plate is the easiest solution, but will leave this thread up to see if anyone has good advise to share. I think anything involving incredible amounts of heat is unsafe for an amateur like me to handle.
heat it up and pull the plate away. Maybe add more solder to help transfer heat depending on how you are heating it

Offline VoteForDavid

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 09 June 2015, 23:34:26 »
@Joey Quinn, Hot air is an option if it can be done safely.  You just reminded me I recently soldered FIVE 4AWG cables together with a heat gun on high.  That joint laughed at a 130W soldering iron!

If you have a heat gun, and if this spot is the only holdup, you could do this entirely hands-free.  Slip some screwdrivers or some kind of other non-melting wedges between plate and PCB, and let it have the hot air.  Let the whole affair soak for a minute on a low temperature setting first if there is one.  I think the better bet would be to heat the PCB, as it's going to be less efficient at shedding heat.  When the PCB gets hot enough, the wedges will pop the board loose.  There is the potential to damage the board and the plate, no matter how you do this.

 Any way you slice it, this is going to involve a large, extremely hot sheet of metal suddenly being free of a hot circuit board.  Flying solder blobs may be involved.  Goggles and gloves would be good things to use.  Please proceed with caution!

edit: it could also be that the part of the plate protruding through the PCB has been deformed so it can't be removed without reforming the metal.  In that case, cutting/grinding the protruding part off would be the easiest way to go.
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 June 2015, 23:36:12 by VoteForDavid »
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 00:30:02 »
Um David, it sounds like you're recommending a more industrial solution for those with access to workshop tools.

Is it possible to do this with a hair dryer? (I know it sounds silly, but I'm desperate and really don't want to take a dremel to attack the plate.)
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Offline VoteForDavid

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 11:17:53 »
Hair dryers and industrial style hot air guns share a lot of DNA.  If your hair dryer glows orange inside and will burn the everloving snot out of your fingers, then maybe  ;)  Harbor freight has the sort of gun I'm thinking of for $15* http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/specialty-power-tools/1500-watt-dual-temperature-heat-gun-572-1112-96289.html

If the plate is just soldered in, maybe the combination of a hair dryer on high, on the plate side, plus your soldering iron on the joint on the PCB *might* get it.  That's both free and worth trying for a few minutes.  Rig up whatever you need to, to hold the board and the dryer in position, unless you have an assistant. 

If the protruding part of the plate is deformed, it may be only very slightly deformed (it's hard to tell from your picture.  Squeezing carefully-and-hard with pliers may be enough to get it back into shape, especially if it's aluminum.  Sometimes this sort of thing is turned sideways a little during manufacturing to keep the parts together, but your part appears not to be rotated.

*this isn't the one I have, but it looks an awful lot like it.  The decimal point in the price is in the wrong place though  :-\  Heat guns also come in super handy for shrinking heat shrink, for which I use mine a lot.  Sort of like a digital multimeter, it's one of those tools that you can live without but once you get the tool you are glaaad to have it when you want it.
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Offline nova779

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 11:21:07 »
Um David, it sounds like you're recommending a more industrial solution for those with access to workshop tools.

Is it possible to do this with a hair dryer? (I know it sounds silly, but I'm desperate and really don't want to take a dremel to attack the plate.)

From all of my attempts a hair dryer isn't effective in melting solder, it's barely effective when bending acrylic so it is no where near a replacement for a heat gun.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 12:53:03 »
Can I just ask, the heat gun's price is dirt cheap (about the same as a cheap soldering iron).

Are there any issues to consider?

It works with a regular home socket when other appliances are plugged in? (Am noob, so naturally kinda nervous).

I really don't understand why it is 1500W but the same price as a 20W soldering iron and cheaper than a hair dryer or clothes iron.

If i use a regular home iron to heat the PCB/plate, is there any danger? I am thinking maybe I want to heat the whole thing, then use oven gloves to try and part it after differential expansion. AKA what you do when you use a stove or small fire to heat the metal lid on a jam jar that got stuck.

I noticed some talk about using heat guns to desolder or to dry paint. Anyone have experiences to share? Some of my keyboard casing paint jobs have been less than ideal and I believe it is because they were not cured properly.
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Offline VoteForDavid

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 15:22:19 »
There are always the issues of build quality and long-term durability with daily use.  A $$$ heat gun will usually stand up to regular use and rough treatment better than a $$ heat gun.  Both are about the technology same inside: resistance wire with a fan blowing through a metal tube.  Resistance wire is cheap, metal is cheap, injection-molded plastic is cheap at production scale.  There's nothing too expensive in a basic soldering iron, either.  HF is in business catering to people who will accept lesser quality for a lower price, for tools that will last a while with occasional, hobbyist use.  Hair dryers and clothes irons have to be made pretty for women to want to purchase ;) plus packaging has to be pretty, and advertising must be paid for as well.

The main danger with soldering is heat, heat and more heat.  This is a relatively large part.  Touching any part of it at over 70 degrees C or so is going to hurt.  You're talking hundreds of degrees C at the solder joint, and the metal plate will spread heat away from the solder joint pretty well.  It is possible that a clothes iron on high could prevent it from losing enough heat, so you could melt the solder joint with an iron.  A clothes iron will also make a handy flat surface to hold the plate for you. The way to find out is to try.

A 1500w heat gun is a pretty heavy load on the mains, but most modern homes will be fine to run that as well as other appliances.  Unless you are in a building that is a fire hazard due to ancient and poor wiring, the worst that will happen is the mains voltage will droop some, and then circuit breakers will trip, when too-high powered devices are in use.

Most paints are full of volatile chemicals that will be driven off by normal air temperature.  Higher temperatures will often speed drying times but are not necessarily required.  The easiest way to get a bad paint job is to use paint that will not adhere to the material being painted, and the next-easiest way is to try using a single or two thick coats vs. lots of thin coats.  Painting technique is an art in itself, and you will find plenty of videos on Youtube showing proper form to prevent things like runs/drips.

Differential expansion might help remove some things, but PCBs (made of fiberglass reinforced plastics) are pretty stable, and if anything the metal will possibly expand faster, but not so much it interferes with getting the pieces apart.
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 12 June 2015, 08:05:13 »
Thank you very much VoteForDavid; I haven't quite decided what to do yet but that heat gun seems to be on my shopping list now. In my humid environment it really makes sense to have something that can dry paint quickly.
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Offline VoteForDavid

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Re: Unpleasant Filco Minila surprise (help needed)
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 13 June 2015, 11:40:51 »
I hope I've been of help.  Do let us know how it comes out.
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